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TRANSCRIPT:

Brad (00:00:00):
Welcome to the B.rad podcast, where we explore ways to pursue peak performance with passion throughout life without taking ourselves too seriously. I’m Brad Kearns, New York Times bestselling author, former number three world ranked professional triathlete and Guinness World Record Masters athlete. I connect with experts in diet, fitness, and personal growth, and deliver short breather shows where you get simple actionable tips to improve your life right away. Let’s explore beyond the hype hacks, shortcuts, and science talk to laugh, have fun and appreciate the journey. It’s time to B.rad.

Michael (00:00:38):
You can think of ketones. There’s just this whole other lane on the, on the turnpike. There’s this whole other way to get energy in your body. It has some advantages. Not all the lanes are exactly the same, like there’s some that are, you know, faster but lower total throughput. But faster, you have ones that have more throughput, but maybe slower. And so ketones have their own special set of characteristics and they go through their own lanes. So that’s where a lot of people are.

Brad (00:01:03):
Hi listeners, please welcome Michael Brandt. He is the co-founder and CEO of Ketone iq. They’re a company that makes supplemental ketones, ketones on the go for an instant high performance energy source. You know, I’ve talked about the ketogenic diet for many years and written many books with Mark Sisson about the amazing benefits of the ketogenic state for anti-inflammatory and immune boosting and antioxidant and protein sparing. And the ketone keto diet has risen to popularity and become a huge fad. However, it’s a little difficult to adhere to this extremely strict dietary protocol to limit carbs to the extent that you force your liver to make ketones internally. So a wonderful breakthrough in high performance supplemental technology is the availability of consuming what they call exogenous ketones, outside source of ketones, directly for athletic performance recovery and improved brain function. So I’ve been excited about this technology for many years now and tested these products out over time.

Brad (00:02:12):
And he’s gonna talk a little bit about his product, but it’s not really a commercial show. He’s gonna talk about the benefits of ketones in general, and we also talk about his own high performance athletic training, athletic training regiment, and how pursuing these daunting goals that we put up there with our competitive aspirations carry over into all aspects of daily life. So it’s an interesting conversation about being the best you can be and learning about this exciting cutting edge intervention for your training, which is supplemental ketones. And I talk about my experience when I used the product on my cactus to clouds hike and felt an immediate boost in mental clarity, as you often hear about people talking about with the ketogenic diet. But it can really play an important role in athletic performance by keeping your brain engaged and well fueled so that your body can work as best as it can.

Brad (00:03:08):
He’s got Tour de France athletes using them. He’s got Ironman Legends, MMA fighters. So this is really, uh, cutting edge stuff and I think you’re gonna get a lot of value out of it and probably want to try the product. I have a special discount for you of course, and I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised at how effective supplemental ketones are. And the Ketone IQ product is a special type of formulation called a ketone diol that has a longer lasting duration in your bloodstream. And so I really think they’re putting out a great product. I use it a lot myself, and I welcome the idea to learn more about it. Here it goes. Michael Brandt 02:42 Marathon runner, used to be an engineer coming outta Stanford, and then he founded this company on the heels of getting a huge grant from the United States government to research the benefits of supplemental ketones for soldiers. So interesting story. Here we go. Michael Brandt.

New Speaker (00:04:05):
Michael Brandt, founder of Ketone iIQ I’m glad to catch up with you and I really mean that because just before we hit record, I found out that you’re on the marathon scene, man, and you’re flying. So we got a guy who’s walking his talk at the, at the lead of this company,

Michael (00:04:21):
Brad, it’s great to be on here. Looking forward to a fun conversation today. Yeah.

Brad (00:04:24):
I’d love to know how you got into this game and, you know, decided to found this company. I know you had that research grant, which is a really good, uh, calling card for what you guys are all about and the dedication you have to peak performance. But then maybe also you can thread in some of your personal story and bring us up to date with how you’re throwing down these amazing marathon times and, and really putting the product to the test in that sense.

Michael (00:04:50):
Yeah. And a two 40 marathoner, and I know you’re, I appreciate the praise. I know you, you hang out with the rarefied air, some of the elite elites. So definitely happy with the progress I’ve made in this sport and it’s really fun. And I got into it, I guess rewinding the clock. I was a Stanford trained engineer that got into endurance running outta college. And I started just with my engineering hat on, looking at what I could do to improve. And I got, I made a lot of progress pretty quickly ’cause I just was measuring a lot and very engineering about it. Very much like, okay, well I got early on into Maffetone methods, zone based, heart rate-based training, and how do you put it in more volume without putting wear and tear on your body? How do you optimize your nutrition, your metabolic systems?

Michael (00:05:41):
How do you improve your cadence so that you’re able to be more efficient? Just looking at the kinda inputs, everyone’s just wants to run fast, but you, you can’t just write that on a post-it note and go do it. It’s like there’s a lot of different angles of attack into how do you run faster. And when you see your body as a system and you’re not only looking at performance, but also longevity health span. And we’re in this exciting time where there’s a proliferation of sensors on or in the body. Like something like 50 million Americans have a smart watch that’s measuring their sleep score or their footsteps or some important biomarkers. So it’s a really exciting time. I got into this space a decade ago and just started looking at what was interesting and just personally really got into the marathon, wanted to qualify for Boston, and then kind of the rest, the rest went from there. And I’m still, I was doing four hundreds, 200 this morning. I’m trying to get down to like a 02 29 marathon next. So,

Brad (00:06:36):
So that’s interesting that you didn’t have that usual background that we see among the faster runners in the pack. So you weren’t like running in high school or college, you just kind of jumped into this crazy sport after you graduated?

Michael (00:06:49):
I was always athletic. I was varsity soccer player in high school and kept really active in college playing a lot of, you know, tennis and Ultimate Frisbee. And I know our, I know our friend Mark is really into ultimate. And that, yeah, just, it was active, right? Like doing, doing a lot of stuff, getting out there but wasn’t really putting in, like for me in college, a six-mile run was a long run. And it was, it was once I started going down the rabbit hole of like deep endurance, I was like, wow, like you can run 40 miles a week, 50 miles a week. Now I’m like running every, I try not to think too hard about it. ’cause like I keep doing stuff that like two years ago was impossible. Now it’s like I’m doing 80, 90 miles a week and it’s like, how do I go even faster, harder? And it’s, it’s one of those things with like any kind of mastery’s, like the people that are a couple steps out ahead of you, you, you seem like impossibly good, but then you just stick with it. And then eventually you’re, you’re, you’re your own hero from what was two years ago. But like the whole thing resets to like, okay, now what’s aspirational is

Brad (00:07:55):
Like, yeah.

Michael (00:07:56):
How, how do you feel? That’s a,

Brad (00:07:58):
That’s a really important point because I think especially in the endurance sports when there’s so much suffering involved, I remember in the, over the years of my progression, you’ve, you’ve, you cannot fathom how someone can go four minutes faster on a bike split for 40 K or how to take 10 or 20 or, or however many minutes off a marathon time because you gave it your all and you collapsed at the finish and you’re like, that’s all I got. There’s no way I can ever dream of going faster. And then it sort of, it happens over time. It’s a beautiful kind of representation of, you know, how the body learns and gets better.

Michael (00:08:33):
Yeah, it’s exciting. I mean, I have one tattoo and it’s the tattoo of the San Francisco Marathon, which was the, it was the first marathon I did. And I trained really hard and cracked three hours for it. And more importantly than the, the time or the accomplishment is what you just said of, of the discipline and the commitment and really like sitting with something, I think a younger version of myself when I would approach tasks in general, not just talking about marathon, like in general in life, I would really just go all out on it until it was done. You know, pull an all-nighter, like come hell or high water, I would get the thing done. And I, I was effective to a degree at getting things done, but there was something about the marathon that taught me that, like showing up and giving it a 80% effort every day.

Michael (00:09:15):
You’re not killing yourself most days, but you’re showing up every day. And that compounding daily discipline, like continuing to stack days that was actually hard isn’t any specific day. No day makes you a zero or a hero, but the compounding of days. And you do that for 12, 16, 18 weeks and then you’re, you come outta that a different person. You do. And then you do that a few times and you’re really, really a different person. And there’s something I’ve learned on just, I think that endurance training mindset pervades a lot of my approach to business and family and like the other things that are important in my life. Having that, that urgency, but also that patience and that duality between the two that I’m, you know, we’re all still, I’m still figuring it out, but I’m like, you know, honing in on what that, what that is, that duality there.

Brad (00:10:02):
Well, you are obviously doing something right and I don’t want to offend any listeners when I ask this question, but like, how did you actually not screw this whole thing up? Because most people do when they get a passionate about a goal like the marathon, they go and slam themselves. I think a lot of it’s due to our cultural programming and peers and some of the resources for this information that can, you know, dissuade you into thinking that you just have to grind yourself to a pulp in order to become competent. But obviously you figured out you engineered a better solution, I guess.

Michael (00:10:37):
Yeah, I can’t take too much credit for it. And, you know, knock on wood, no, no serious injuries to date. I learned pretty early that it was this game of running as much as you can, as as many miles and as high quality miles as you can, but without getting injured. And that’s the really important caveat. Like rule number one is don’t die. Like you can’t, like, like as soon as you are knocked outta the game, as soon as you’re injured, like, doesn’t matter, nothing else matters. Like you’re, you’re out of the game. And so it’s all about that just managing. And you, and you’re right, like I see a lot of people that get swept up in the sport and they just go all in. And I see, I see people that go from not being a serious marathoner at all or serious, any kind of runner to like, all of a sudden the running eight miles a day and it’s like someone out there can run eight miles, I can run eight miles a day.

Michael (00:11:27):
Someone out there can run more than that, but it takes a lot of time to build there. And so I think tho those heuristics, like, you know, don’t add more than 10% to your weekly mileage each month. So like, don’t go from like a 20 mile week to a 30 mile week to a 40 mile week in like successive weeks. Like, do 20 for a while, do it for a month, then try 30. Does it does, or 25 does your body break? Are you okay? Feel, ramp it down. If it starts to really hurt, ramp it up. If it, if it’s working, like, like be a little bit more gentle on the throttle. It’s a long game. And if you overdo it and you injure yourself, you knock yourself outta the game completely. So just, it’s, it’s interesting Brad. ’cause we’re talking about this like, you know, this aggression, this will to win, but we’re also talking about like being patient inside of it. And it’s like how, like you wanna push the throttle, you wanna run fast, but like, in order to do that, you gotta be in the game for multiple years. So you have to be patient inside of the urgency and aggression. And I think that’s the ultimate like mind trip, the like hard thing about the sport is how to ba if you’re too patient. Like you don’t make any progress. <laugh>

Brad (00:12:39):
Too much of a baby. Oh my gosh. I mean, you just characterize that beautifully. That is the essence of the path to, you know, your potential in endurance sports is managing that competitive intensity. And I’d say that, you know, everyone out there, everyone who toes the starting line is extremely driven, focused, type A most likely, um, goal oriented and not in the lazy category of, gee, I really need to get my butt in shape. I’ve been drinking too many beers since college. So now that we have this select population, then it becomes a challenge of how can I get out of my own way and not be my worst enemy? And I’ve been battling that for, for many years. Even as we talked about just before we hit record. Now I still apply this, this latent background endurance mentality to my goals as a sprinter and a high jumper.

Brad (00:13:33):
And it simply doesn’t work. And I have to get scolded by my advisors like Lion Martinez, Cynthia Monteleon, and Sue McDonald to say, Hey, what are you doing? It’s not, it’s not about, you know, working and working and, and building that aerobic base like we’re familiar with in endurance. It’s more about, you know, resting, managing and then being really explosive and powerful and then resting and, and you know, harnessing those resources again. And I think same with the endurance game, it’s a matter of, you know, the aerobic system response to a lot of volume at low intensity. And so you still have to be smart about it. It’s not just getting out every day and racking up mileage. It’s, you know, listening and managing your pace properly. Do you have a structure with your heart rate training that you, you follow that helps you not get injured and, and get faster?

Michael (00:14:21):
Yeah. And one thing that you said that really jumped out is the fact that you have these advisors, coaches, and even someone with your level of experience being, you know, on podium and at Kona. And there’s a lot of people that in your shoes might have the, the hubris or the arrogance to be like, I’m great. I don’t need a coach. But like in reality,

Brad (00:14:44):
Are you talking about most triathletes, Michael?

Michael (00:14:45):
Yes. Yeah.

Brad (00:14:46):
Yes. We all know, we all know the best majority of triathletes know everything I’ve discovered. Yeah.

Michael (00:14:50):
Yes. Yeah. And that humility to have a coach. I mean, I have a, I have a coach and I, I got, you know, reasonably far in the sport using books, but I was still like looking to <laugh>. That’s funny. Looking, looking to something. It’s still like, okay, I’m reading Advanced Marathoning. Like, you know, something was always from when I first got started, I always had something in that occupying that slot of like expert advice. Like, don’t be a know-it-all. Look at the books, eventually got a, like, got a coach and go, go off of the advice of others. And I think there’s that surrendering to experts that if you have a plumbing issue in your house, like you should probably call a plumber and you should probably call an attorney if you need an attorney and a doctor if, if you need a doctor depending on what’s going on.

Michael (00:15:38):
So like there’s, there’s that surrendering of, it feels, it’s your body and it, it can be easy to feel like you know everything about it ’cause it’s your body. But in reality there’s someone out there who’s trained a lot of people whose bodies are like yours or who know how to, you know, adapt the training program to what they’re seeing from how your body is responding to it. And I feel that’s, that’s probably the most important, just overall takeaways like I, and, and not just in running. Like I have a, I have a CEO coach, someone who’s like coached other execs, and how do you scale from, how do you make your first million bucks to your first 10 to your first one day, you know, a hundred million dollars? How do you, how do you evolve as a, as a human? Someone else has done it before.

Michael (00:16:21):
And I think that, you know, there’s that saying like, if you, like, don’t lift with your ego, like if when you’re in the gym, if you lift with your ego, you’ll, that’s the surest way to pull a disc like lift. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta be, in reality, you gotta, and it helps to have that vantage from that coach or that advisor who can, who’s seen it before and can help to guide you on what you’re doing. And, yeah, I just, I, I think it’s important to like let our, get our egos outta the way, find experts. I know it feels like it’s our body or our brain or our career or our athletic journey, but there’s someone out there who has meaningful expertise and can be a coach. I mean, even someone as as experienced as you like that, that, that’s I think a really powerful message.

Michael (00:17:03):
And you mentioned heart rate training, just to touch on that as well, that yeah, heart rate training I think is super magical for endurance athletes in particular that the, the, i I would say one of the unsung benefits of zone two training, like the reason why it’s so interesting, like, you know, low, low intensity, but doing high volume of it is that you’re really fresh at the end of it. And then you get a, a good meal, good night’s sleep good, like you’re ready to do it again the next day. Like if it was a, the most efficient way to train was to be in like zone 4, 5, 6 every day, like then okay, people would do that. But the issue, it’s a really good stimulus, but it’s like too much stimulus. It’s like your body isn’t going to be able to get up and do it again the next day.

Michael (00:17:44):
And so for an endurance athlete especially, you’re trying to rack like hours and hours every single day. And so if you overdo it on any one day, you kind of mess up the whole equation. So yeah, to answer your question specifically on endurance training, like there a lot of runs i, I have done where it’s like, you know, I don’t want my heart rate to go above 140. I’m trying to go as fast as I can, I’ll keep my heart rate low. And then, um, and then at the end of it, you feel pretty fresh,

Brad (00:18:08):
You can do it again. Yeah. I think unfortunately, even though we’re 60 years into this challenge, that building the endurance correctly, uh, dating back to Arthur Liddiard and his great success in New Zealand in the 1960s, so we’ve had all this information for so long, but I think people still misunderstand how, and scientific research I think doesn’t help sometimes because you can go take a bunch of college kids, pay ’em $60 a week to be part of the study, and they go and slam intervals on the exercise bike for six weeks and their fitness dramatically improves. So, you know, you can, you can kind of hack or shortcut the process and generate a short term improvement by pushing the body really hard and just joining up with faster runners. And we see these Instagram posts all the time where people are slapping up that they crushed another workout and now they’re gonna go crush the race and in a bubble

Brad (00:19:01):
it has relevance, but not when you’re talking about this long game or actually, you know, excelling at, at the highest standard. And you know, the elite athletes that I’ve interviewed on the show, like Shelby Houlahan, who’s just coming back and racing at the highest level. She described how she just heads out the door every day and she runs at whatever pace she feels like. And it’s a decidedly non-scientific approach, but it’s about that big picture of just getting the work done without being fancy or, or getting in your own way with arbitrary standards that you feel like, oh, I better not slow down. I gotta keep this pace today because it says so in my schedule.

Michael (00:19:38):
It’s so interesting rather that you say that. ’cause as I’ve gotten to work with more world champion level athletes, it’s, it’s been really telling how much they go off of intuition. It’s the, like, you, there’s a lot of benefit from all of the data that we get and the heart rate training and the recovery score and the sleep score and the this and the that. But I’ve seen at the highest level, like I’m friends with Charlie Lawrence, who’s the world record holder for 50 miles. We do a lot worth, like Sam Long, he’s the fastest American triathlete in the game right now. John Jones, big UFC heavyweight, you know, undefeated, um, competitor in in MMA. And a lot of these, these guys, like, they have the coaching, they have the stats, they have the info info, but they also, just like you said with Shelby, they go off of intuition.

Michael (00:20:34):
Like they’re, they’re not a slave to what fricking aura ring says their recovery score is like, they go, they go with how they feel, and there’s something inside of there, which is just like being really intuitively in touch with where your body’s at using all the data. I think the data can be helpful, especially when you’re getting started to help guide. You just really like know what zone two is and feels like, but a lot of the elite runners, like when they go on a recovery run, a lot of the elite runner, they’re not wearing a chest strap and like checking their heart rate every 30 seconds and making sure they’re in exactly zone two. Like they’re not, but like, they’re doing the same in principle. And if you’re a new runner, it’s helpful to wear the chest strap and like calibrate to what a zone two is. But like the more experienced people, they just, they know what a recovery pace should feel like, and, and they know to not overdo it. And there’s this, there’s this intuition to it. That’s, yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah,

Brad (00:21:29):
It’s important at, at all levels. Yeah. Um, so now we have this amazing venture that you’ve been on for a while with Ketone IQ and I, I’d love to know how that started and then you can kind of describe the big picture overview of what this product’s all about and how to use it as a health and fitness enthusiast.

Michael (00:21:51):
Yeah. When I started getting into the sport and seeing what was possible, I got really inspired. I’ve always been an entrepreneur. I was that kid who I age 16 was like selling glow sticks in Chicago at the Taste of Chicago, like outta my backpack. Like you’d buy ’em, the internet wasn’t a thing back then. It was like mail order. I would get a bunch of blow sticks for 50 cents and sell ’em for three bucks downtown Wow. By the Buckingham Fountain. And so I always was an entrepreneur, and when I started getting into endurance sports, I was thinking like, what’s the, what’s the lever to pull that doesn’t exist yet? Like, I love this book. I got this book right here, um, first and Thirst, the Gatorade book that like, you know, a lot of us have come of age in the world where Gatorade and electrolytes was always a thing.

Michael (00:22:38):
Like I grew up in Chicago and, you know, Michael Jordan was sweating beads of blue Gatorade. Oh yeah. And it was already a thing. And, you know, dumping the, the giant orange bucket of Gatorade on the coach’s head after you win the big game. Like, but that wasn’t always a thing that there was that breakthrough in the 1960s when these food scientists looked at the Florida Gators and they said, Hey, these guys are sweating a lot and there’s a lot else coming out besides water. Looks like we should replenish those things. Why don’t we try that out? You know, the rest is history. Electrolytes is now a hundred billion dollar category. And so I was looking at the space like, okay, what’s the next thing? Like what’s the next nutritional primitive that could exist that doesn’t exist right now? And looking around a lot at metabolism and how your body operates when you’re pushed to its limits and kept seeing ketones come up because when you intermittent fast your body makes a lot of ketones.

Michael (00:23:28):
When you do endurance exercise, your body makes a lot of ketones. A lot of people were doing like a ketogenic diet, eating really low carbohydrate. And then your body, because you don’t have carbohydrates, your body makes a lot of ketones because your, your brain in particular loves ketones. You, you need a lot of energy to fuel your brain. And so your body’s always making ketones. There’s a lot that you can do to make your body make even more ketones. It kept coming up. I just kept seeing it like in kind of different areas of the space that I was looking at, in a way where like, it’s like when you hear something a few different times from, from very different areas and from, yeah, here’s a paper from 50 years ago, here’s what an endurance coach right now here today says, here’s like, oh wow, I heard this other startup that’s doing continuous blood glucose, blood ketone management.

Michael (00:24:16):
Like, I kept hearing about ketones as this magic molecule. And I, the light bulb went off for me. I was like, well, if there, if there’s so efficient in your, in inside of your body, why can’t you go to the store and buy a shot of ketones? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that was the kind of naive question five, six years ago at this point that, you know, in it led to everything that in, in 2019 I got this $6 million contract with the Department of Defense to do the biggest ever research study on exogenous ketones, ketone drinks, and then really commercialize the technology and, and launched it in 2022 to the broader market. And yeah, a lot of exciting stuff inside of there. Like we’ve, we’ve been doing a lot of research, we continue to do a lot of research and it’s really exciting. It’s a new, I mean, we can go more into it, but it’s in a nutshell, it’s ketones are high performance energy. It’s different from carbohydrates, different from caffeine. It’s this very efficient energy source that a lot of people are using. And honestly, like stacking on top of existing energy. Some people will swap it. A lot of people just use it as part of their overall toolkit as an athlete or just like getting day-to-day throughout their life, managing their energy levels.

Brad (00:25:25):
Yeah. I imagine most of my listeners are familiar with the whole scene since I’ve been talking about it so long and writing those books with Mark Sisson for many years. But I think just a, a basic overview here to realize that ketones are a source of caloric energy. They, they called it the fourth macronutrient for a while. So we have protein, carbs, fat, and then ketones are actually made in the liver internally and sent as fuel preferentially to the brain, but also to the working muscles when you are in this glycogen depleted state. And so the keto diet became this craze because all these amazing health benefits come from being in that ketogenic state. You have anti-inflammatory, you have immune boost, you have protein sparing. Oh, isn’t it wonderful? But I think, um, you know, the diet’s kind of peaked and then kind of fizzled or immersed back into more sensible long-term strategies because it’s so difficult to adhere to.

Brad (00:26:21):
And so I was always in the, along this whole journey, I was envisioning this amazing potential for supplemental ketones to provide all those benefits without having to adhere to this extremely restrictive diet, which not only is difficult for compliance, but also can have some adverse aftereffects, such as not fueling yourself appropriately to recover from difficult prolonged and or high intensity sessions. And they have research showing that your absolute powers diminished when you’re on the ketogenic diet. To be an endurance athlete, of course you can do it, but it’s a lot of darn work and you gotta be totally committed to like, you know, this special diet as well as appropriate training. So now we have people that can eat a more balanced nourishing diet and then like you, like, like you’re brainstorming went, um, you know, reach for something and consume it and get an immediate, uh, the theoretical and, and proven boost in performance. And I want to get into exactly how and why that happens.

Michael (00:27:33):
Yeah, it’s interesting because your body can use a lot of different types of energy. You have a lot of, you can think about like a lot of different lanes on the expressway mm-hmm <affirmative>. And even when you, when you pick up a, you know, modern carb sachet packet and you look at the ingredients, the state of the art there is, they’ll have different types of carbohydrates. They’ll have glucose and fructose and multi-dextrose, like they’ll have, they’ll have BCAAs, which are basically broken down proteins. The idea is that you want energy going in through a lot of different lanes in parallel, and you, and you want your body to be able to receive those and process those. And you can think of ketones, there’s just this o whole other lane on the, on the turnpike is this whole other way to get energy in your body.

Michael (00:28:20):
It has some advantage. Not all the lanes are exactly the same. Like there’s some that are, you know, faster but lower, lower total throughput, but faster. You have ones that have more throughput, but maybe slower. And so ketones have their own special set of characteristics and they go through their own lane. So that’s where a lot of people are playing around with it, stacking it with other, other ingredients, other things that they’re using for their nutrition. And it’s really exciting. I mean, what the Department of Defense initially got interested in was hypoxia, like it altitude, when there’s lower oxygen, ketones have the ability to turn into ATP like cellular energy using less oxygen. So you get more ATP per unit of oxygen compared to any type of carbohydrate or fat oxidation or anything. So that’s really interesting. At altitude, you have better cognitive performance, better physical performance, you’re a able to perform better, and then that also carries over

Michael (00:29:17):
’cause when you’re in a depleted state in endurance exercise, you’re also a little bit hypoxic. Like you’re, you’re running low on oxygen at the end of a marathon, or even before the something marathon length, you’re running low on oxygen. So the ability to have a fuel that turns into ATP using less oxygen starts being advantageous for not just, you know, being on at, you know, 15,000 feet of altitude. But even at sea level, when you’re doing stressful strenuous work, you’re able to get more brain energy. And then even, I mean, even if you’re just like sitting at your desk, you’re not like running at all like, like your body’s always using energy. And so a lot of people just like feel good on the way that they appreciate the subjective feeling of their brain running on ketones. That same kind of like sharpness that you get when you’re fasting or doing a keto diet. But without having to jump through these hoops, you’re able to just immediately feel really sharp. ’cause your brain’s getting that energy from ketones.

Brad (00:30:14):
Yeah. So that was one of the early highly touted benefits of going into the, the dedication of the ketogenic diet pattern as people reported. Better mental clarity and all these things, which, I like my starting point to be skeptic when I’m talking about, uh, performance benefits and things like that. I’m sure you hear the same. Uh, but we’ve known for over a hundred years, like the original application of the ketogenic diet. Dr. Wilder over a hundred years ago now, was using it for patients that didn’t respond to drug treatment for seizures. And they realized is because, um, ketogenic diet or making ketones raise the oxygen threshold from which a seizure would occur. So the, the brain was getting more oxygen. And this is highly validated by over a century. So now when you talk about that increased mental clarity, when you ingest or, or at, you know, strictly adhere to kenogenic diet and take a shot at your desk at 2:00 PM when you’re feeling a little foggy, can you describe why the brain is feeling better?

Michael (00:31:19):
Yeah, your brain, in general, really likes ketones. You can only use a couple fuels in your brain. Your brain’s more selective in the fuels that it allows compared to other parts of your body. Your brain has this blood brain barrier that’s semi-permeable, so fat, which your body in general can use for metabolism. It can’t go through your blood brain barrier. It’s, it’s too large to get through. So your brain will use sugar. We all know that feeling of like a sugar rush when like you eat, if you have something sugary, you have some desserts, you have some candy, I dunno about you. But even in my 36 years of age in this planet, like at this point, like when I, if I have a sugary dessert, like I can’t sleep that well. Like it’s, I very much feel like mentally, you know, switched on and kind of hyper.

Michael (00:32:11):
Like, I, I can’t, I can’t go to sleep. I think I used to be able to maybe sleep it off a little bit better. But in any event, we all know that feeling of like, you eat sugar, your brain switches on, ketones have the similar process property of being able to cross a blood brainin barrier. They’re not as stimulating as glucose. Like they’re, they’re not as stimulating as carbohydrates, so they don’t give you that kind of like sugar rush and crash kind of feeling. But, but they have that same characteristic of being immediately bioavailable, unlike fat. And so your brain is you a lot, a lot of the reason that we have developed this ability to make ketones is to fuel our brain on the savanna. There’s no, like poptarts, there’s no wildly available instantaneous carbohydrates or ketone shots. There’s not, like, that’s not available.

Michael (00:33:02):
It’s a likely case that, you know, a hundred thousand years ago that that Brad on the Savannah is starving or hasn’t eaten in a couple of days, and you’re running low on blood glucose, glycogen stores are running low. And in order to support your brain that consumes 20% of the energy for your overall body, your body starts turning ketones into, sorry, your body starts turning fat into ketones in order to fuel your brain. So there’s evolutionary mechanism where our brains rely on ketones, especially when we’re in that kind of stressed, strenuous state of, you know, not having eaten for a couple of days where our brains are just very used to running on ketones and we prefer it. And when they’re available, when our body starts making them, or when they’re just available in our body, our brain will soak them up. And that’s just a fundamental property of human physiologies. Our brain will soak up ketones when they’re available. And so when you drink a ketone shot, you kinda like jump shortcut the process where you’re, you are able to just start immediately using ketones in your brain without having to go through the, you know, starving your body for a couple of days.

Brad (00:34:16):
Yeah. Well said. I mean, it, it is truly one of the keys to human evolution and survival is the ability to make these ketones right up there hand in hand with, let’s say gluconeogenesis where we can actually strip down lean muscle tissue and turn that into sugar in a survival realm or, you know, store fat and then burn it for energy. So it’s a very elegant way to like you described, oh, I’m low blood sugar, I’m, I’m feeling a little cranky. But if you haven’t eaten in two days and you have to keep grinding and cranking and thinking, and, and physically performing work, that’s when you need these magical ketones. So when you, when you, when you take the shot of the product, another thing that seems to me to be beneficial is that when we’re exercising and we’re burning up a lot of carbohydrate over the course of our activity, whether it’s long duration or or, or short and fast, we get into competition with the brain’s ravenous need for glucose, as you described, 20% of all calories burned in the body is by the brain, even though it’s only 2% of body weight. In my case, two and a half,

Brad (00:35:29):
Okay. Around 2% of body weight. So the brain needs almost, almost entirely glucose unless you are immersed in a ketogenic diet or starving or consuming supplemental ketones. But let’s just say the brain needs glucose around the clock. But then what about your muscles? When you’re out there doing an all day hike or a long distance spike, right? Or you’re trying to run a tempo run, that’s when it, it, at least it seems to me is the, the centerpiece presentation of why this stuff can really help is because it’s gonna help keep your brain fueled. Meanwhile, that will help improve the fuel delivery to the working muscles. ’cause when you get into competition with the brain and the muscles both getting tired, that’s when you’re in big trouble.

Michael (00:36:16):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a really complicated equation on how your body is shunting different metabolites to different parts of your body that need it. You got your calves and your quads are firing, your brain is using a ton of energy. Your brain’s a central governor for the rest of your body. So when your brain is tired, it’s hard to tell your legs to shut up and, and go. And so that’s why, that’s why the brain benefits are so interesting. ’cause it’s not just like it’s nice to have, it’s that most people’s point of failure is not that literally their calf muscle is failing, it’s that they’re mentally tired. It’s that like they are running out of that willpower to overcome what’s going on. Like you’re, you’re just, you can’t push through the wall anymore. And so brain fuel is really interesting and your heart has its own metabolic equation. Your heart also, by the way, loves ketones when they’re present. Cardiovascular muscles use a lot of ketones when they’re present. So the, the overall takeaways that your body’s using a lot of energy all the time when you’re an athlete, especially, you just have these high energy demands and ketones are this very premium fuel source that’s very efficient, that helps everything operate just at this other gear than what you’re able to typically.

Brad (00:37:38):
Yeah. You mentioned the brain is the central governor, inspired by the work of Dr. Timothy Noakes, the great exercise physiologist in South Africa who came up with this central governor theory and was the first one to really propose and drive this idea that it was not literally your quad muscle getting tired and that’s why you couldn’t pedal as fast up the hill, but it’s actually your brain trying to protect your muscles from perceived future damage by pushing them too hard and running them out of energy. So if they did a muscle biopsy of that athlete who claimed to be exhausted and the quads went dead on the hill, they would show that there was still, uh, a reserve of glycogen left in the muscle. And this is a really mind blowing insight for all athletes to think, oh no, that’s wrong. When I bonked on at mile 17 on the trail run, I was, I couldn’t even talk.

Brad (00:38:31):
I didn’t know where I was. That’s because your muscles still could have gone. And I think the example that really hits home with me is like, if I came over to you, uh, on the side of the trail there and put a gun to your head and say, Hey, I need to see 10 more miles outta you, then you can collapse and whine and ask for some chicken soup. You would be able to summon the reserves to go 10 more miles even when you think you’re at your perceived limit. So if we can somehow nurture this central governor with things like 100,000 cheering crowd in the stadium is another way to, you know, help the brain get the best it can be, but also to fuel it appropriately with an intervention, which you’re gonna have to call the exogenous ketones, ones that you’re not making internally. That would be an, an an intervention over and above what your body’s physiological capability is at a certain time.

Michael (00:39:24):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s I think really well said. It’s a really well presented case for where we see ketones working really well with special operators, with elite athletes, with just everyday amateur athletes.

Brad (00:39:37):
Yeah. Yeah. So now if you’re watching on video, you can see Michael’s beautiful backdrop with some artwork and some actual product on the shelves. Let’s talk about how would, how would you use this practically in a day-too-day manner? Like what are some of the best times, places and protocols for a ketone supplement?

Michael (00:39:57):
Really typical way that people have? It is first thing in the morning, just morning energy rise and roll through your day.

Brad (00:40:02):
Is that like instead of coffee, like with, with fewer side effects or what?

Michael (00:40:07):
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people have it in addition to their coffee.

New Speaker (00:40:10):
You get dump it in that coffee, get a, get a turbocharge morning, morning starter. I love it.

Michael (00:40:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Some people mix it with their coffee. Some people just like to have it kind of as a sidecar and sidecar have both, like we, a lot of people know the, you know, the bulletproof coffee idea, which is like you put MCTs in your coffee and grass fed butter in your coffee with the idea that that that fat turns into ketones. MCT the reason people like MCTs is because they’re medium chain triglycerides, and that’s a form of fat that relatively easily converts into ketones. But there’s a time factor to that as well as it’s just, it’s just not a one-to-one perfect conversion. But the principle of fueling with ketones and caffeine has been around for some time. And if you have Ketone IQ, it’s just directly bioavailable ketones. And so some people like having it alongside their coffee, having ketones and caffeine at the same time.

Michael (00:41:07):
And, you know, some people do will use it to try to cut back on caffeine. A lot of people, you know, if they’re having, if they’re, if they’re um, more advanced users will have it a couple times throughout the day. One, one period where people really like it is in the afternoon. Because a lot of people I know are trying to cut back on caffeine after noon after 2:00 PM ’cause we, it is just become widely known that caffeine stays in your system. It’s got that six hour half-life. So a cup of coffee or two cups of coffee at noon. It’s like you got, you got a cup of coffee still in your system at 6:00 PM mm-hmm. You got, you got half a cup of coffee in your system still at, at midnight. So a lot of people are cutting back on that. They’re seeing their sleep score on their whoop or their apple or their aura ring going up when they are looking at other energy sources besides caffeine later in the day.

Michael (00:41:56):
And so Ketone IQ ends up being really helpful to a lot of people at that kinda like two, 3:00 PM I want to, like, I wanna pick me up, but not something that’s gonna interfere with my sleep. And then a lot of athletes, like if you’re, if you’re actually training at a level where you’re dialing in nutrition, where you’re having electrolytes around your workout, you’re having maybe a, some pre-workout, you’re having some other fuel, you’re having carb gel packets throughout your exercise. What we say there is basically every like two or three gel packets have a ketone IQ. Like you want this ratio if you’re really trying to perform, again, it depends on what diet, if you’re dry doing a low carb diet, obviously modulated if, if you’re doing other diets modulated. But for our elite runners, elite triathletes, what they’re doing is they’re having it basically in that one to two, one to three ratio of ketones to carbs idea, again, with a highway analogy that you wanna be providing a lot of different fuel to your body all at once. And stacking carbs and ketones is the like gold standard of if you’re really, if your mission is to maximize energy into your system for a workout or erase,

Brad (00:43:07):
Yeah, I guess the, the brains are going to have first choice ’cause the brain’s essential governor and, and rules overall. So the brain’s gonna take the ketones and then the muscles will get those carbohydrates. And I suppose that the, the carbohydrate source would be even more effective because the brain’s not stealing some of that for its own needs.

Michael (00:43:27):
Exactly. Exactly. You have more. Okay. Overall sub sustainability availability.

Brad (00:43:32):
Yeah, I guess I experienced that on. We talked about this before we hit record too, but when I did the Cactus to Clouds hike last November, I think I might’ve done a whole show on it to, to, to, uh, regale my listeners with this amazing endurance achievement. But I thought it was relevant because I didn’t do any training whatsoever to prepare for this 15 hour crazy all day hike on the single most difficult trail in the United States. Maybe the world as measured by a sustained vertical gain. You climb 8,500 feet in the first 9.3 miles, and then you continue up to the summit. So you’re doing, you know, 22 miles total with 10 or 11,000 feet of elevation gain. So I was in no way prepared for this, even with my good state of physical fitness and sprint capability and going to the gym and being fit.

Brad (00:44:17):
Um, it’s, it’s no joke when you try to do something this extreme and this long duration. And, uh, as you might imagine, I was feeling pretty crappy at certain times, but I brought a ton of product, thanks, Jamie Nickerson from Ketone IQ shipping me just in time. I open up the box, I’m like, all right, this is going, this is going in the backpack. But what I noticed in a really distinct fashion, um, and people, I’m not being paid to say this right now, but I really wanted to put it to the test. So I was out there feeling really crappy. My legs were feeling beat up, and I was starting to kind of lose <laugh>, lose interest and lose focus in the goal at hand. Because when the goal is that far away, there are little dull flat periods, whether it’s doing an Ironman or a 50 mile ultra run or even a marathon where you just start to zone out a little bit.

Brad (00:45:05):
And every time I took a shot, I immediately came back to like present focus and was a little more chatty with my hiking partner. I insisted he try a shot of Ketone IQ as well. But it really was a distinct turnaround from a brain fading away. And when your brain fades out, you start to notice that your legs feel a little bit more heavy and you have more aches and pains and complaints, and that’s all going back to that central governor. So I don’t like to convey that there’s any magic formula and this source of calories is so much better than the other one. And you’re gonna feel great and you’re gonna improve your performance 5%. But when we’re talking about like brain engagement, boy, I mean, you really can make an argument that if you stay sharp with your cognition throughout a physical ordeal, you are going to have a tremendous payoff with reaching your potential. Not saying I could have sped up 12% and, and beat the record time .That has had nothing to do with that, but just to get the most out of what I was capable of that day, rather than fading away and sitting on a rock and making an excuse and saying, let’s turn around. Oh, you can’t turn around on Cactus to Clouds. I forgot to say that. People, you gotta get to the tram, otherwise you, there ain’t no going back.

Michael (00:46:23):
Yeah, that’s a fun one. I’ve had the good fortune of doing that one

Brad (00:46:26):
As well. Oh, nice. All right. Yeah.

Michael (00:46:27):
Beautiful, beautiful hike. Big day out for sure.

Brad (00:46:31):
Yeah, if you, if you want to turn around, we’re talking about an 8,400 foot descent <laugh>, you know, with a thousand foot down every mile, it would be harder than continuing to go. So it’s kind of a fun, fun ordeal to know that you ain’t turning around.

Michael (00:46:45):
Yeah. It’s one of those climbs where the vert is just so aggressive that up is easier than down. Like you’re gonna Oh yeah, for sure. Time going down on that. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot about the, the mental side. Just we’re talking about central governor a lot and when you get into sports like cycling or MMA where it becomes not just like, okay, I’m gonna go faster. But, you know, we do a lot of work with team Vima, Lisa biker research partner with them. We’ve done a lot of science together with them showing how ketones actually help your body to produce more EPO, which helps. A lot of people know, EPO is the main mechanism for how your body makes more red blood cells and more red blood cells means you can carry more oxygen. So being able to naturally create more EPO, that’s a lot of why people will go do altitude training ’cause it stimulates more EPO production. So, um, we do a lot of work with Team Visa, Elisa Bike, we’ve seen EPO effect and one of the, what’s

Brad (00:47:39):
The name of that team?

Michael (00:47:41):
Vima Elisa Bike. They right one two outta the last three tours to France. So they’re, they’re pro tour, they’re, they’re way up there. And with cycling, one of the most interesting aspects of it is when you see that the Peloton, you see some of the crazy crashes on the Peloton, they’re, they’re moving really fast over many days. I mean, the Tour de France is 21 days of racing through the Alps spread across 23 days. So you get, you get two rest stays in there, but you’re going, you’re going hard, you’re fatigued, you’re going fast, and there’s no armor there. It’s you and your like 10 pound bike and some spandex. And so the injuries, the, the crashes can be catastrophic. And so it’s all to say that if people can use the central governor to be more, you know, fast, that’s awesome. But if, if I think about it, like if we help avoid one crash, that that’s a win.

Michael (00:48:35):
If people can just be like a little bit more dialed in, a little bit less brain fog and avoid, you know, whatever some brick in the road that would’ve caused in and in the Tour de France, right? One person goes down like, oh yeah, 17 people go down. Yeah. Like it’s a, yeah, we’ve seen those kind of pile ups and so think a lot about how the central governor cannot just help you to, you know, go faster and hit your marathon PR or like go up Cactus to Clouds quicker. Like all that stuff is awesome too. It’s just that there’s this other, like, when it’s a matter of like safety and life and death and, and that being able to be a, like a healthier athlete, more mentally dialed in athlete, that that’s, that’s something we care a lot about too.

Brad (00:49:15):
So we need Ketone IQ in those truck stops right next to the cheapo upper packet of stuff with a bunch of caffeine or whatever.

Michael (00:49:25):
Yeah. The tweaker or whatever. Yeah, that’s definitely, yeah.

Brad (00:49:27):
Yeah. The tweaker truck stop. Yeah. So, um, besides mourning and having it, uh, side by side with your coffee, um, how else are people finding success? Are you putting a couple in your gym bag? Are you, uh, maybe using it as your secret weapon at work? So you don’t have the afternoon blues? Yeah. What about after workouts?

Michael (00:49:47):
Yeah, a lot of people have it after workout, especially when you’re working out earlier in the day and you’re transitioning from after your workout. You’re going into your work day and, and you gotta fuel up and be really ready to go. A lot of people like it for that period in the day. And in general, a lot of people like it when they’re about to give a, a keynote or they’re about to jump on a job interview or they’re about to jump on a podcast, is there’s moments where you wanna be really mentally sharp, but you don’t want slam another cup of coffee. It’s either, you know, diminishing returns. We all know that feeling of being, having too much coffee, you don’t feel great like one cup of coffee good, but your fourth cup of coffee, depending on your tolerance, it, it doesn’t feel good anymore.

Michael (00:50:28):
And you end up actually being kind of scatterbrained and anxious. A lot of people like Ketone IQ to have the light switch on for an important meeting and important sales pitch and just what, what’s that worth to people? Like if you’re, if you can like make a, make a good pitch to the client, then like if you can, if you could be a little bit more dialed. So we we’re seeing a lot of workplaces we’ll stock and it’s interesting ’cause it all started with this like special operator and then elite performance, but a lot a growing set of people look at their job as elite performance and they look at their body as this asset to optimize. And so they’re trying to perform well, like what’s the, what’s the marginal benefit of just being a better, you know, professional at whatever your chosen profession is.

Michael (00:51:13):
And people are getting more serious about their, their sleep score and their energy levels and what they’re taking their body. So it’s actually really, it’s funny you mentioned like the truck stop ’cause it’s in the energy shot space. I just see this massive opportunity. There’s no energy shot right now for that person that we’re talking about. That person that, you know, wears a whoop or Apple watch or aura or sees their body is an asset and is trying to optimize like you at your average gas station, there’s nothing there in the energy category for you. And so we’re not gonna be cheaper than five hour, we’re gonna be more expensive than five hour. But it’s also this energy shot that’s actually good for you. And, and I think that’s an exciting area. That’s what the whole team gets stoked on, is like, I just think fast forward, you know, five years, it’s like, it’s gonna be obvious. Like someone’s like there, there ought to be energy shots for the, that like high performing person that cares about their health and like actually optimizing their energy in a long term way as well.

Brad (00:52:19):
Yeah. They finally put bananas and oranges in a basket at most mini mart gas stations. Yeah. So they might as well put some premium products in there someday. So the tour guys, how are they using the product in their stage racing and in their training?

Michael (00:52:36):
Those guys are really advanced. Those guys are biking and they’re just pushing it to the limits. They’re doing a hundred plus miles a day up and down the Alps at altitude against other fastest riders in the world. And it’s really interesting ’cause at that level you actually see the starting to use it for not just performance, but recovery after you work out, your body is doing a lot of work to repair and rebuild. You’re rebuilding the muscles, you are doing glycogen reuptake, replenishing your glycogen stores. There’s a lot of work that you’re doing after the work ends. And we’ve seen ketones are really helpful for that as well. That when you take ketones throughout the day, that you increase your body’s ability to do those recovery processes, which again, takes a lot of energy. We’re doing stuff when we’re recovering, we’re doing stuff when we’re sleeping as well.

Michael (00:53:29):
And so if you think about ketones as this high performance energy, this premium gasoline that helps you to perform really well, well if you’re at that like super elite level where you’re trying to also optimize your recovery and recovery takes a lot of energy. People are taking ketones like throughout the day. As soon as they end the race, they’re taking ketones, having it before bedtime to help to make sure their body has energy available. And ketones don’t disrupt your sleep, which is really interesting. So you’re able to accelerate the, the benefits. So we saw, we did, we saw this study where riders were taking ketones three times a day for three weeks. And they were control comparing that to a placebo group. And the ketone group at the end of those three weeks, they had 15% faster time trial at the end of those three weeks. So there’s this immediate effect that you get from ketones, you feel a little bit more switched on and more, more dialed all that good central governor stuff. But then there’s this other pool of benefits that a lot of people see, which is the compounding effects of just having that premium gas in your body over a consistent period of time helps you to recover and perform again and again and again. So that’s like, that’s a more like elite advanced protocols. They’re having it as a big part of the recovery protocol as well. Actually.

Brad (00:54:50):
Yeah. I would say that’s within reach of everyone. And I remember when Mark Sisson and I were researching for the Keto Reset Diet and talking to some of the leaders like Dom D’Agostino who done such wonderful work on the benefits of, uh, dietary ketogenic diet as well as the supplements. And it was really amazing to ponder the widely validated benefits for things like anti-inflammatory, antioxidant protein sparing benefits of being in a ketogenic state. And I thought, wow, wouldn’t that be great if you could, you know, click into that after workouts and recover more quickly? And indeed it’s possible. But I always also was concerned about the, you know, the price one has to pay for the severe restriction of dietary carbohydrates and the increased stress impact of that overall as well as on workout recovery. But when guys are super well adapted, like my former podcast guest Dude Spellings, and maybe you know him, but you, you’re gonna have to, you’re gonna have to get him on the program ’cause he’s, he’s pushed it out to the varying limit.

Brad (00:55:58):
And one of the things he did was the double crossing the rim to rim to rim at the Grand Canyon. So they did this 50-mile journey from the south rim to the north back down to the river and back up. It took him 13 hours and his hiking buddies celebrated by ordering a huge stack of pizzas to be delivered right there to their campground on the south rim. But he decided as a further experiment besides consuming no calories during the hike, he did it in a full keto, a fat adapted state. Um, he then decided to just go to sleep in his tent and for another eight or nine hours, consume no calories except for, you know, hydrating and amino or whatever he needed. And then he woke up the next day and he said his legs were not sore.

Brad (00:56:43):
They were sore when he did it years earlier when he was younger. And he attributed it to being this in this amazing protein sparing, anti-inflammatory state because he was in extreme ketosis because he hadn’t had a darn thing to eat for 13 hours plus the sleeping period. So that was like an amazing example of what’s possible at the, at the very cutting edge. But now I, I realize with the advent of products like yours, I am really emphasizing consuming it after my difficult high intensity workouts because, um, I want those benefits to, to reduce the inflammation, the protein sparing, all that kind of stuff. And that’s when I think there’s some amazing potential here to speed recovery because your body needs help after you’ve pushed it really hard. And any help you can get, which includes I think, refueling. And so I’m not advocating for people to fast and go to sleep in a tent after hiking for 50 miles in extreme conditions. But if you had the best of all worlds, like you say, those parallel train tracks where you are getting your glycogen and your protein restored and you’re consuming, uh, the ketones to get those, those brain benefits and those incidental or those peripheral benefits of anti-inflammatory protein sparing.

Michael (00:57:59):
Yeah. It’s really cool how ketones help with protein sparing. You have less of the breakdown, your body basically understands it’s in a well fueled state and is doing less <laugh>.

Brad (00:58:09):
It’s getting the message. I got you man. Yeah. I’m sorry I didn’t define that. But like protein spurring meaning that in, in other conditions you might be stripping down that precious lean muscle tissue to convert into glucose to give your brain and your tired muscles what they need. So if you can spare protein, then you get more benefits in the, from the workout and shorter recovery time.

Michael (00:58:34):
Well said.

Brad (00:58:36):
Okay. So we got the tour guys using it. We got the average, uh, office worker even, even if they’re not being physically active, but a handy thing to take, before, and I, I would say during as well as after workouts, do we have any other tips and tricks from, from the guy who’s testing it out, trying to get that marathon time down to down to the two thirties instead of two 40? Oh my goodness. That’s gonna be tough.

Michael (00:58:59):
Yeah, it’s funny. You gotta, you gotta give a pound of flesh for every minute at this, at this level. It’s fun. It’s,

Brad (00:59:05):
Yeah. I’m finding the same thing, Michael. Like, you know, I’m, I’m bragging about wanting to break 60 at age 60 in the 400 and I got a 62 now and I’m like, well, shoot, I’m close, but I’m not as close as I think because those incremental improvements, like I’m sure you can improve from your San Francisco time, around three hours down to two 40. And now it’s like, Hey, let’s take another 20 minutes off. Well, you’re probably gonna have to take a leave of absence or get a Yeah. Get a part-time CEO to cover some of your hours there. And like really the, the incremental improvements are so difficult in sports.

Michael (00:59:38):
It’s so funny you said that, and there’s this principle in systems engineering, which is that every nine of uptime, I’ll explain what this means, but that every nine of uptime is, is equally hard as the previous. Meaning that if you have a web server that you want to be up 90% of the time, okay. Hmm. That takes some engineering, if you want it to be up 99% of the time, that takes as much engineering again. But hey, 99 percent’s not that good. Like 99 percent’s like you’re offline for a couple minutes a day, so you wanna get to 99.9. That 0.9 is as hard as the previous nine in the previous 90. But then like 99.9, like you’re still like Facebook, Google, like they’re not like 99.9. Like you’re still down for some like material time a day. Right.

Brad (01:00:25):
They’re still about that.

Michael (01:00:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Like we can do the math, how many minutes in the day and, you know, 0.1%. It’s like, you know, you’re gonna be downline for maybe a full minute a day, so you wanna be 99.99 and like, and then that costs just as much as the previous. And you can look at it in, you know, in different systems you wanna make a car more reliable, airplane more reliable, anything more reliable that like each nine you basically, you gotta give that same pound of flesh. And it’s the same with elite athletics that like, okay, to get 90th percentile is probably, you know, qualify for Boston, let’s say. Like that’s really hard. But then to get like, okay, I wanna be 99th percentile. Okay, I wanna be 99.9 each one, it, you gotta give a pound of flesh. And it’s funny ’cause like the, the a the absolute difference is very small going from 62 to 60, it’s two seconds.

Michael (01:01:15):
But, I don’t know if this is encouraging or not ing I find it very encouraging because it’s, it’s just this almost axiom across all areas that we apply ourselves that if you want a bridge to be 99.9999% reliable, it’s like you gotta really try really hard. It’s, it’s, it’s, um, diminishing returns. Mm. But like it, but that that’s okay. And that like to really stand out from the crowd. Like actually, like nobody cares about the person that’s like 99 percentile good at something. ’cause you know, there’s 1% of the people in the world, so okay, we’re talking about, uh, 80 million people are gonna be that good. Right. There’s a lot of people like, okay, you wanna get 99.999, like it’s, it’s, I think a, a worthwhile thing to chase and just to be okay that, yeah. Like you could, you know, being the 99th percentile of cello player is good, but being 99.99 percentile of cello player, like you start, you start getting more opportunities. Yeah. You’re, you know, to a lay person they might sound like exactly the same cellist, but like you, you know, in your heart that you’re better and like the results will show at the, for the people that are tuned into it and you just get a lot more, it’s more rarefied air. Um, so I see it as encouraging that like yeah, it’s diminishing marginal returns to get the additional, you know, to shave a few minutes off your marathon once you’re already a really good marathoner. But, that’s just everything like to be

Brad (01:02:44):
Yeah, that’s pretty heavy when you apply it to all those other areas of life. I mean, you’re there in Los Angeles and we can talk about the actors in the top 10 percentile of all actors in the world. They’re waiting your table and then serving you coffee in the morning in Los Angeles. ’cause you need to be in that 99.99. You know, you were the, you were the fourth guy in line for Risky Business when Tom Cruise got the part, oh sorry. He’s the biggest movie star on the planet and you’re whatever. So it’s, it’s pretty rough there at the, uh, at the edges. Yeah. And um, I think that’s part of the fun and the joy though, is to when you, when you pursue those incremental improvements as a person right. And, and, and trying to, trying to get to the very best, that’s when it gets exciting too.

Michael (01:03:28):
I think so. And I think you learn something in common with a lot of the other people that have gone for greatness in one area. For me, I’m attacking the marathon and that’s, that’s really what I’m into. I’m not like switching it up to go play pickleball or golf or whatever. Like I, you know, very casually I’ll do that stuff. I’m not, I have no, no bad blood to any, like, it’s all fun. Like I’m not, I’m not saying anything. I just that like, I think that there’s something really valuable to obsessing over one thing and getting really, really good at it. And then you learn, I think there’s just like mutual respect where you can kind of like appreciate what it’s like to be really good at music or really good at basketball or really good at this other thing. It’s like, okay, I get it. That like, yeah, you just, I don’t know. I was at the track this, I got a membership to my local college track. It’s a Occidental college out here. Really?

Brad (01:04:19):
They let you work out there. You, you, you formally sign up for their club or something?

Michael (01:04:23):
Yeah, it’s like 750 bucks. You get a year long membership. Nice. And you’re just like, badging any time. And like, I’m just there putting in work, like no one cares. Like no one’s watching, no ones. It’s like, and why it’s like, ’cause I want to go from like 99% at marathon to 99.9% of marathon. Yeah. Like, it is just something I care about. And I, I’m there, I got, I got two kids and I got this business and like, it’s very easy for me to be like, ah, I’m fine.

New Speaker (01:04:48):
Like, I’m like, most people are just gonna be like, okay, that’s Michael. He’s a good marathoner. Like <laugh>.

Michael (01:04:53):
But I, I don’t know, I just, I’m obsessed. Like I want to keep picking at it and I, I’m like fired up, like, and it fire it, it pervs through all areas of my life. Like, I literally don’t care about anything else. Like if I don’t, I always joke about it. It’s like I, you know, it’s not really a joke. It’s just like, I have no idea what’s going on on like Netflix. I don’t know what happened on Succession or this or that. Like I kind of know some of the memes, but like,

Brad (01:05:16):
I locked in, man, you’re locked in.

Michael (01:05:18):
Yeah, I’m locked in. I’m like, I only do three things. I do, I do family, I do work, I do running. Love it and like love it outside of that it’s like, ah, I can, I, yeah. Don’t commit to very much. And so, and, and, but if it fires me up and I gotta, you know, I feel like that’s the right role model I set for my kids and just like get into something, get and get deeply into it. And it almost doesn’t matter what like there’s, it’s kind of funny, this roll of the dice I got really into marathon running and like there’s another world where it’s, well it’s something else. It’s guitar, it’s this or that. But I think, I think everyone, as

Brad (01:05:51):
Long as it’s not bike racing, ’cause you’ll able to get yourself in trouble with your other two main goals of being a father and being a businessman when you’re out there on the bike. I, I think that’s way too dangerous for, for a consuming passion for somebody. So I’m glad you’re on foot running circles around the track in the trails of LA

Michael (01:06:07):
I thought about this a lot ’cause I, I’ve gotten into triathlon in different period. I’ve done, I’ve done some half Ironman’s had a lot of fun out there. I’ll probably do a full Ironman one day, like just crack a sub 10 just to do it. Like try to get in, get over to Kona and just.

New Speaker (01:06:20):
sorry to hear that.

Michael (01:06:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. <laugh> <laugh>. Um, just to whatever, just to do. But like, I think, but to your point, it’s like when I, when I personally was looking at the math on it, like, um, yeah, cycling is a lot more dangerous and the amount of time commitment that you have to give it is just much larger that like, you can be a really good runner running like an hour, hour and a half every day. Maybe do, do some longer sessions once or twice a week. But you can do a lot in like an hour, hour and a half versus like bike ride, I dunno, you wanna like six hour bike rides, like you gotta like really go Yeah.

Michael (01:06:59):
Hard on the bike and like, and long as well. So it’s, it’s just a whole other kettle of fish I think as far as picking your area of obsession, I think it makes sense to look at like, where can I get good within a certain amount of time? Where can I get good without overly exposing myself to life-threatening risk? Like what? Yeah. Don’t we, I don’t know. Cave diving, maybe not for everyone. Free soloing, maybe not for everyone. Like find your, find your things that are, um, interesting and check the boxes to, I I also found like, this is kind of a funny one that I, I don’t know if everyone agrees on, which is just like I got into, really into I’m very decidedly a marathon or not an ultra marathoner personally because I found, like when I talk to everyday people, like they know what a marathon is like even if they’ve never done it or anything versus like, if I say, oh, I’m doing, I’m a did the Rocky Raccoon whatever. They’re like,

Brad (01:07:53):
What do you,

Michael (01:07:54):
What do you, what is that? It’s

Brad (01:07:55):
Like, what the heck is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you mean mean staying up past your bedtime for a race? That’s crazy.

Michael (01:08:00):
Exactly. Like it’s, it’s like no one knows what a 50 K is and every one of them has a different profile to it. And like, I don’t want to yuck other people’s yum. I’m sure I’ll eat my words in a year to three years, whatever, when I get into <laugh> the longer stuff. But like it’s, I like the marathon. ’cause like, like part of what I’m like picking, okay, what do I obsess over is like, what’s something that like, you know, if, if I’m just, if I’m chitchatting with someone that like they, they can relate to it and they can understand it. That being the world’s best underwater basket weaver, it’s like how you gotta explain underwater basket weaving to someone. Like, whereas a marathon, it’s like people kind of know what it is. They have a cousin who did it and it was really hard and it’s like, oh yeah, I do that. I can do that for, you know, six minute miles about, and like, cool. And like people kind of get that. So yeah.

Brad (01:08:42):
It’s also cool, like if you go to one of the big races, whatever, Boston, New York, Los Angeles, you’re, you’re lining up on the starting line with the elites. Yeah. That’s cool. So you connect to, you know, human elite peak performance in a very strong way. Not to mention watching the marathon on television in the Olympics, knowing that you, you know, you you did the same thing. It’s pretty heavy. And I think it’s, I think that’s one of the big reasons for the popularity of, you know, long distance running is what, what the elites bring to it. Same with, uh, triathlon. Like sometimes I wonder when I was racing around the circuit and, and getting a prize check knowing that all the recreational athletes funded that professional purse in Chicago or, New York or Florida or, or Bermuda or whatever we went. But it was like, these people really love the sport. They’re enthusiastic about it. They want to go faster too, and they get to see people at the front of the pack, like setting the tone. It really, it really enhances the overall spirit of competition for everyone involved.

Michael (01:09:40):
It totally does. You know, it’s a funny other sport that’s like, that is golf.

Brad (01:09:43):
Yeah, for sure. Oh my gosh. Like you,

Michael (01:09:45):
You can actually golf. Like, you know, you might need to know a member or be a member, whatever, but like you can golf like where the Masters are, like you can go, you can golf like where these tournaments are. Yeah. And it’s funny because you’re, they’re very different sports, but it’s like, like you can’t actually go play NFL football. You can’t go to like the Cowboy

Brad (01:10:03):
Stadium can’t <laugh>.

Michael (01:10:05):
No, you can’t go. Yeah. You’re not allowed in the Staples Center to go dunk. But like, but you can, it’s just a funny thing ’cause golf and triathlon and running couldn’t be more different. But it’s a funny commonality where like when you watch the Masters, like literally everyone watching it, it’s like wearing a polo and khakis and you know, they have a set of clubs in the trunk mm-hmm <affirmative>. Like they’re, they’re ready to swap in it. Like they’re probably, you know Yeah. Playing that course the day before.

Brad (01:10:27):
The other thing with golf is like, you can go out there and you can suck and play, play around and shoot a hundred whatever, but you can make a birdie and then you can go home and watch the pro make a birdie just like you did and have that one moment in time where you know what it’s like to be a pro. Not saying you can do that as a four hour and 30 minute marathoner knowing that Kipchoge is holding 04:34 pace for, uh, for 26 miles. But, um, that’s another unique attribute about golf is you can connect in a way for, for a little glimpse of what it’s like. If I could just make, if I could just do that on every hole, I’d be on the tour. Yeah, yeah,

Michael (01:11:01):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a funny one.

Brad (01:11:03):
Hey Michael, that was a really stimulating conversation. I’m glad we got to get into the science a bit. Hopefully it was easy to follow for people. But, a pretty, pretty simple presentation that we have this magic alternative fuel source at our fingertips now, really for the first time in history, uh, dating back to caveman times when we had to starve ourselves and, and keep going, running for, uh, you know, the next meal on the savanna and, and lowering blood sugar, making ketones for the brain. Now we can go buy them in a convenient packet. So maybe you should tell us how to engage further with the great work you’re doing at Ketone IQ.

Michael (01:11:40):
Yeah, check us out at @ketone.com on Instagram. We’re at ketone and say hello. We love hearing from people. I’m active as well. I’m at Michael D Brandt and just yeah, love hearing from people what we’re, what athletic goals you’re working on or elsewhere. I just, yeah, I love, love hearing what people are up to,

Brad (01:12:02):
How to break 02:40 in the marathon when you’re a busy family man and CEO of a burgeoning company, Michael will help you.

Michael (01:12:08):
Yeah.

Brad (01:12:08):
Thank you so much for watching listening everybody. Thank you so much for listening to the B.rad Podcast. We appreciate all feedback and suggestions. Email podcast@bradventures.com and visit brad kearns.com to download five free eBooks and learn some great long cuts to a longer life. How to optimize testosterone naturally, become a dark chocolate connoisseur and transition to a barefoot and minimalist shoe lifestyle.