It is time for more Katy Bowman!

Katy is one of my favorite educators in the health and fitness scene and her Nutritious Movement movement is so awesome and has such a great following (check out her Instagram @nutritiousmovement to see her thoughtful commentary and the beautiful, Earth-based lifestyle she is living out there on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington).

This is a very educational episode as Katy illustrates the importance of a movement-oriented lifestyle separate and distinct from one’s fitness regimen—so integrating movement into your day, throughout the day, and not just for one isolated block of time. Katy is also a book writing machine with a new book, My Perfect Movement Plan: The Move Your DNA All Day Workbook.

This is an unusual book because it is formatted like a journal, asking you to participate in the process and further connect with the message.

Instead of a simple Q&A about her book, this episode is a thoughtful conversation about the impact movement and fitness can have on the human body. You will learn why athletic training can often be counterproductive to health, and how to integrate movement into your daily life in a graceful and sustainable way. It’s really not a huge ask and it has a massively beneficial impact on your health because instead of trying to get your butt to the gym and get in shape, it’s more about being mindful of your environment and your surroundings, and utilizing Katy’s quick, actionable tips so you can enjoy a more movement oriented lifestyle.

Katy Bowman, M.S. is a biomechanist, bestselling author, and founder of Nutritious Movement. She has written many books on the importance of a diverse movement diet including Move Your DNA, Rethink Your Position, Whole Body Barefoot, and her latest My Perfect Movement Plan: The Move Your DNA All Day Workbook. Follow her on Instagram @NutritiousMovement and enjoy listening to this practical and informative episode with Katy.

TIMESTAMPS:

How does one integrate movement into daily life? Even athletes need to get way better at having a more movement-oriented lifestyle. [00:51]

Most casual endurance athletes are overdoing it to the extreme excess and the extreme detriment to their overall general health. [7:04]

Cardio, strength, and flexibility should all be packaged together. [12:03]

By watching the Paralympics, people will be inspired to improve their exercise habits. [13:34]

People easily lose motivation like when they used COVID as an excuse of why they got out of shape. [18:32]

Sometimes we are strong in only one narrow area of fitness rather than all around fitness. What movements are functional for an average human? [21:34]

It really is quite easy to integrate movement into your lifestyle. Do squats in line at the taco truck, anyone? [27:48]

The fitness industry is pervasive.  You are told you must buy exercise equipment and dietary supplements when maybe you can get what you need at home. [29:30]

Psychologists are exploring the reasons or excuses people have for not being more active. [33:10]

There seems to be a focus on athleticism rather than just recognize movement as important. [36:43]

Living in the digital age, we find ourselves constantly entertained and connected which compromises movement. {48:19]

Life is busy.  It is so important to walk, walk, walk. [57:47]

LINKS:

• Brad Kearns.com
• Brad’s Shopping page
• B.rad Whey Protein Isolate Superfuel – The Best Protein on The Planet! Available in Two Delicious Flavors: Vanilla Bean and Cocoa Bean
• NEW: B.rad Superfruits – Organic Freeze-Dried Exotic Fruit Powder! Natural Electrolyte Hydration & Energy Powder
• Katy Bowman Instagram
• Bowman on Wonderful Power Project
• My Perfect Movement Plan
• Born to Walk
• The Hacking of the American Mind

LISTEN:
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TRANSCRIPT:

Brad (00:00:00):
Welcome to the B.rad podcast, where we explore ways to pursue peak performance with passion throughout life without taking ourselves too seriously. I’m Brad Kearns, New York Times bestselling author, former number three world-ranked professional triathlete and Guinness World Record Masters athlete. I connect with experts in diet, fitness, and personal growth, and deliver short breather shows where you get simple, actionable tips to improve your life right away. Let’s explore beyond the hype, hacks, shortcuts, and sciencey talk to laugh, have fun and appreciate the journey. It’s time to B.rad.

Katy (00:00:38):
Inertia’s a, bitch <laugh>. Um, and like that inertia, which is a tendency to do the same thing that you’ve always said, like that’s the, we’re, it’s a psychological issue that we’re mostly dealing with. And it’s over.

Brad (00:00:51):
It is time for more. Katy Bowman, one of my favorite educators in the health and fitness scene, and her Nutritious Movement. Movement is so awesome with such a great following. Get on Instagram and follow her with her great posts, very thoughtful commentary, great pictures of her natural earth-based lifestyle out there on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington. Communing with nature every day, like few others. But this was great because we got to connect in person for the first time in years. She’s been on the podcast numerous times, but here we were in the Wonderful Power Project Studios. Listen to that podcast, episode two ’cause the guys had a great conversation with Katy and it was the wonderful occasion of yet another book launch. She’s a book writing machine and she’s got a new one called My Perfect Movement Plan, the Move Your DNA All Day workbook.

Brad (00:01:49):
And it’s a really clever idea presentation because she wants the reader to get involved every step of the way through journaling exercises and evaluating your own daily lifestyle and all the different attributes and responsibilities that you have and how you can integrate more movement, more nutritious movement, just like when you’re trying to improve your diet and eat more nutritious foods. This podcast was interesting and a little different because we purposely made it conversation style rather than me interrogating her with my prepared questions about her new book and her talking points. So we just got into the flow, man, talking about all aspects of healthy living, and especially the compare and contrast between one’s devotion to athletic training and a fitness regimen. Compare and contrast to how you live your everyday life, in particular how fitness ambitions can be taken overboard to become counterproductive to health when they are narrow and excessive.

Brad (00:02:59):
Gee, I wonder if that hits home with me. Yes, indeed it did. So, we make some great commentary about how to integrate movement into your daily life in a graceful and sustainable way. And the cool thing is, is that this whole movement that Katy’s spearheading is not a huge ask. We’re not asking people to get up off the couch and get in the gym and get your butt in shape with a yelling personal trainer or a grueling class. It’s more about being mindful of your environment, your surroundings. And I think it’s really going to appeal to you to pick up these quick, actionable tips about how to enjoy a more movement oriented lifestyle. So go check out what Katy’s doing with her podcast, Katy says, as well as her many books and the nutritious movement community. Here we go with Katy, Katy Bowman,

Katy (00:03:52):
Brad Kearns, how are you?

Brad (00:03:53):
So glad to catch up with you in these fabulous studios.

Katy (00:03:58):
IRL In real life.

Brad (00:03:59):
That’s right. It’s very important these days, especially in your line of work and your life philosophy. So, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I admire you from afar how your family lives, that natural lifestyle. And we got a lot to talk about today. ’cause things are getting complicated. We need to slow things down, reflect and see where this conversation goes.

Katy (00:04:20):
Yeah. Let’s talk about movement as something that takes us down a notch in all the best ways. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in all the best ways.

Brad (00:04:30):
So how we, how do we get taken down a notch?

Katy (00:04:32):
Well, I, one way that I’ve been seeking to do that is helping people understand this concept of dynamic, dynamic rest or active rest. And I know athletes probably have like, how would you define active rest from an athlete’s perspective?

Brad (00:04:49):
Uh, yeah. Well, I’m, I’m learning that I have some, uh, work to do here because I’m, I’m trying to be a sprinter and a, and a and a jumper, which is, you know, power and explosive. And then I go and take a rest day of an easy bike, ride of an hour, and I get scolded by my sprint coach. ’cause it’s not really rest. You’re training the aerobic system when you’re out there doing that. And that’s my mentality. But, you know, true restorative exercise is where you come in and that’s like, you know, switching from standup desk, sitting on the floor, moving around, taking breaks, doing the wall angels. And even for athletes, I think they need to get way better at, um, you know, having a more movement oriented lifestyle rather than slamming the workout and then perhaps sitting around on the couch and not, you know, there’s, there’s no in between. It’s either like crush a workout or you’re back at your laptop and sitting on your phone.

Katy (00:05:43):
So like, your coach doesn’t want you going for, like, tell me about this bike ride. What, when you say I’m going for a bike ride, what does that mean? Um, distance, length, intensity.

Brad (00:05:53):
It’s, you know, let’s say I’m pedaling for an easy hour ’cause I like to be outdoors and enjoy the fresh air and look at the river.

Katy (00:05:59):
Are you on a beach cruiser?

Brad (00:05:59):
No, no. I’m, I’m pedaling on a mountain bike, but my heart rate is in the aerobic zone. So it’s very comfortably paced. Okay. And so I have always counted that as a recovery ride because I’ve been an endurance athlete my whole life. But now as I’m, you know, claiming to want to transform into a sprinter, well,

Katy (00:06:14):
You’re trying to train your fibers.

Brad (00:06:16):
Yeah.

Katy (00:06:16):
To being more of a.

Brad (00:06:16):
That’s right.

Katy (00:06:17):
A power person.

Brad (00:06:17):
That’s right.

Katy (00:06:18):
And you’re basically untraining maybe some of that by.

Brad (00:06:20):
Yeah.

Katy (00:06:21):
Trying to also be a low grade.

Brad (00:06:23):
Yeah.

Katy (00:06:24):
Endurance athlete.

Brad (00:06:24):
That’s right. And so now, especially, you know, as you know, Mark Sisson and I are releasing a book called Born to Walk about the wonderful benefits of a walking oriented lifestyle. And I’ve never walked hardly anywhere in my life because I’ve either run at six minute pace or nine minute pace if I wanted to take it easy. But I’m always on the move and, you know, in this workout mindset. And I think it’s an important transition even for athletes to realize that probably the health priority comes with a movement-oriented lifestyle. And then secondly, whatever your fitness and athletic goals are, sure. Those can be also promoting fitness and longevity, but not without that first piece getting, getting handled, really.

Katy (00:07:01):
Would your coach consider a walk a rest day activity?

Brad (00:07:04):
Yeah, for sure. Okay. I, I hope so. Yeah. Coach Cynthia Monteleon a a shout out to her. She’s a world champion sprinter and she coaches a lot of sprinters, Olympic level and master’s level. But it’s a new education for me because I’ve always thought of recovery as something that still, you know, counts points along your weekly mileage and all those endurance notions that it’s important for endurance athletes to just put in a massive amount of volume, a lot of it at a slow pace. ’cause that builds the foundation for the time when they do go and do hill repeats or something that’s challenging. But when it comes to really anaerobic activity, the anaerobic system thrives on high intensity, low volume, and extensive rest. So all those things are in direct contrast with what the aerobic system thrives on, which is a lot of volume. Low intensity doesn’t, you don’t need a lot of recovery after taking easy bike ride. You can do that seven days a week, 365 days a year, like a lot of endurance athletes do.

Katy (00:07:58):
You can not everybody.

Brad (00:08:00):
Yeah. I mean, whatever your level is at Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, you bring, he make a comment there that that’s important because most endurance, casual endurance athletes are overdoing it to the extreme excess and the extreme detriment to their overall general health. And we see that in the entry rates. And we see that in the, the, the, the failure to improve body composition despite running 30 miles a week every single week, week in, week out, and, you know, shuffling and, and struggling through these workouts in the name of fitness. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it’s too exhausting

Katy (00:08:30):
And not really even in the name of fitness, in the name of performance. So I’m listening to everything you’re saying and I’m hearing delineations Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that maybe need to be made between an athlete Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then you’ve also, you use another type of athlete. So, what was the, what was the middle of the road athlete? Kinda like the casual athlete.

Brad (00:08:49):
Yeah. There’s like, there’s like, you know, someone who has endurance type of goals. And then there’s very few people these days that have, you know, power explosive sprint goals. There’s not that many juujitsu fighters in the gym. We have there. Two of ’em, were around this building and there’s only 12 in the whole city, whatever. But, um, this is something that we lose when we age. And it’s super important to try to continue with anaerobic exercise, to maintain muscle mass, maintain explosive power. That’s how we prevent ourselves from falling. And it’s widely, you know, it’s, it’s disrespected in the fitness because most people are just climbing the StairMaster thinking that’s their commitment to fitness.

Katy (00:09:28):
Is it disrespected fitness disrespects?

Brad (00:09:31):
Well, I mean, it, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s ignored Yeah. By most fitness enthusiasts there.

Katy (00:09:37):
So, so fitness, so fitness enthusiasts is a completely different category, right? So now we’ve got athletes, competitive athletes. You, are you still competing? I mean, you’re still, you’re

Brad (00:09:45):
Got the silver medal this year in the national championships. Masters high jump. You

Katy (00:09:49):
All a competitive athlete and you have been since you’re a teenager? Probably.

Brad (00:09:52):
Yeah. Since, yeah. Since age seven or whatever. Okay.

Katy (00:09:55):
Right. So like, your understanding of movement is really heavily influenced by a competitive athletic lens. Meaning what you were told is the thing that you need to be doing is what you’ve learned. And this is an issue really in wellness culture overall. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is a lot of the advice that’s coming to everyday people is heavily informed by competitive athletes. Even the studies that are often done Yeah. Or are usually done in kinesiology departments at university. The bodies that are being researched are usually teenage or young 20-year-old competitive athletes who

Brad (00:10:40):
Have Right. Who else is gonna sign up for some crazy Yeah. Exercise bike to exhaustion study. Right? Yeah.

Katy (00:10:45):
Me. Yeah. But, but I was a total outlier. Right. ’cause I did not come in with an athletic background. Uhhuh. I came in with like a love for, for biomechanics and, and like the, how a nerd gets into a kinesiology department is how I got in there. And then there’s, would you say that there’s a difference between the person who’s always going on the StairMaster? For me, that would be like general fitness. I used to call it like Shape Magazine. I read, you know, I read fitness or. I’m totally dating myself right now. These publications don’t exist any longer.

Brad (00:11:14):
I don’t know. Don’t they don’t, I don’t think so. They probably exist on online. A

Katy (00:11:17):
Lot of publications don’t exist

Brad (00:11:18):
Anymore. Shape and Men’s Fitness where the big magazines with, you know, get six pack abs this way.

Katy (00:11:22):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, where you’re like, I need to exercise three times a week. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I need to get cardio. I mean, you’re following basically government agency, medical agency guidelines by doing cardio this time. I would not call that person even, I still can’t remember the term that you used for, not the competitive athlete, but maybe the weekend warrior. I think the weekend warrior is often what we use. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. It’s someone who is training to some goal, but they’re not necessarily training every single Yeah. Day. Yeah. Um, but they are following some of the same competitive athlete parameters. ’cause their goal is the performance com competition and performance.

Brad (00:12:01):
Yeah. They wanna enter an event and finish. Yeah.

Katy (00:12:03):
And then you have general fitness. Right. Um, and I think within the general fitness space, a lot of people are aware that they need to be working on not just cardio, but strength, flexibility. Right. Like, I feel like those three things always come packaged together.

Brad (00:12:17):
Um, you’d, you’d hope. But it seems like there’s a lot of segmentation. Like generally you go into a fitness club and the females are working on the cardio machines and then going with their yoga mat. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And maybe the guys are more inclined to go and work on the muscle machines when ideally you’d have, you know, a blend. If you’re a recreational fitness enthusiast, you want have cardio, but you also want to have strength, power, balance, mobility, things like that. The fooling around that you do at the power project gym. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> doing one legged, uh, rope swings. I love it. And all that stuff. Most people couldn’t be bothered or have not even been exposed to that.

Katy (00:12:50):
They haven’t been exposed. I think they haven’t been exposed to it. And like what you were saying, that that point, I think a lot of people are making choices based on body composition. Right. I need to do lose, I need to like lose weight and do cardio burn calories, or I need to bulk up. Like you’re making a choice specifically about what you think the body composition. So your movement YI think it’s really important that we identify what people’s movement whys are. Their movement why is aesthetics. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Now there’s gonna be plenty of people in the gym who are there because their doctor’s like, you gotta get your blood pressure down. And the doctor probably said, and you need to do cardio to do that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So that’s maybe why they’re, why they’re reaching for those, for those things.

Brad (00:13:31):
And billions of dollars of advertising behind it too, you know.

Katy (00:13:34):
Sure. But I would say in, in science or in, um, in the research about it, I do think the messaging is often you need all these things. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I’m always interested in what’s happening between the messaging and what the choice the person is making when they walk into the gym. Like, I’m really interested, and that’s where I spend my time, is educating people to know there’s a lot of movements available at the buffet, and you need to build a plate based on your physiology. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, your age or stage. You know, there’s gonna be different needs that sort of flex with that. And then also your preferences, what you like to do. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> has got to be part of it. Sure. Like, we’re not just making a, we’re not just eating minerals and vitamins. There’s gotta be like, we’re like getting you like the Italians, the Italians who abhor the American nutritional perspective where you eat for nutrients rather than for pleasure

Brad (00:14:29):
<laugh>.

Katy (00:14:30):
They, they don’t like it.

Brad (00:14:30):
They probably have healthier overall

Katy (00:14:32):
And That’s right. They have

Brad (00:14:33):
By far diet.

Katy (00:14:34):
Yeah, that’s right.

Brad (00:14:35):
Yeah. Eating for pleasure. Yeah.

Katy (00:14:37):
And I mean, of course when you’re limited to the ingredients that grow where you live Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> then, then by nature that works pretty well. It’s, it’s working less and less so with the introduction of foods that don’t work as well. Yeah. For the body

Brad (00:14:51):
Worldwide. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> exportation. Yeah. I guess that’s, you know, the reference to fitness is, um, you want to, you don’t want to go in there with, you know, a grim aesthetic approach to fitness. ’cause you’re not gonna last that long. So we gotta figure out things that light people up that they’ll stick to. And that’s where a lot of this marketing hype and this, you know, convincing people that the ultimate endurance achievement is to run a marathon or do an Ironman triathlon. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s the billions of dollars of marketing behind it. And the peer influence. And everybody, you know, respects you more if you, if you run a further distance, but it’s not really aligned with health because it’s too extreme. And this, the training is too strenuous and the person is not adapted enough because of a sedentary dominant lifestyle to go and train for a marathon. Like the person on TV who just won the gold medal that ran two hours and change, and they’re trying to do a four and a half hour. And, it’s way too stressful for them.

Katy (00:15:46):
Yeah. It’d be interesting just being done with the Olympics and winding down with the para Olympics. Did you see the, um, one-legged high jumper?

Brad (00:15:54):
I am so inspired and awed by these people knowing that, you know, just, just to be silly, like the guy jumps higher than me with one leg. Yeah. So, of course I’m gonna be, he’s younger, incredibly inspired. And then the guy in the, the pool that does the butterfly with no arms. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. He’s faster than I can swim with a 50 butterfly too. That’s right. And, you know, I, there’s so many emotions that came up watching these people. One of ’em is like, it’s so great to see it displayed and normalized and they’re winning and they’re, they’re happy and they’re not, you know, brought down by their disability. And I also feel like all the people out there that do nothing with their body, and then we sit here and watch on TV and think that these people, the guy with no arms would kill to prove a half a second in his 50 butterfly where he is just pumping through the pool with his legs. And, boy, it’s like, hopefully people are watching this and saying, you know what, I’m gonna get off my butt and walk, walk a few miles because the person with one leg just, you know, ran around the track faster than you can believe. Yeah. Yeah.

Katy (00:16:55):
I mean, athleticism is really there. Oh,

Brad (00:16:57):
There’s the one legged high jumper for you watching on YouTube. Andrew’s pulled up the clip and Yeah, he’s jumping, 1 71, which is five 10, which is a stunning performance for anyone to jump over my head. Yeah. By a few inches. I mean, think about jumping over a bar, five foot, 10 inches tall. IIt’s no joke. So he, you know, he drops his crutches flops over a bar five 10, and hopefully he got the gold. I can’t imagine too many people being able to beat that.

Katy (00:17:21):
No. And I, I mean, I think the Olympics, I mean, I don’t think of it as propaganda for movement and sports as much as it’s like inspo. Yeah. Right. It’s, it serves its role in a culture. The tricky thing is yes, when there’s been a mesh up of athleticism and health <laugh>, I mean, I think the inspo is good. Like, I don’t, you always see an uptick, I think, of signing signups for sports and gym and Yeah.

Brad (00:17:53):
Soccer,

Katy (00:17:54):
You know? Yes. You’re just like, signups. I’m impressed. And it’s also, we live in a sedentary culture. How often do we spend four weeks watching physical feats, people holding their breath, you know, watching the synchronized swimmers and being like, it’s just, I think you exposed yourself to it. And so part of what I’m trying to do is like, if you expose yourself to athleticism, physicality, movement at whatever level, more often I think you’re reminded that you want to do it. Hmm. I think a big part of why we don’t is it’s off our radar. It’s just off the radar.

Brad (00:18:32):
Yeah. And I think we create, or there’s difficult logistics because we think, like during COVID, everyone say, I got outta shape ’cause my gym was closed. Like, excuse me, <laugh>. Like, um, you know, and oh, the kettlebells were sold out on eBay too. So I couldn’t even do anything at home. And I’m, I’m making light of these, these quips. But it, it does illustrate how the mind, the collective mindset is that this fitness endeavor needs to be complex. Um, in regard to the endurance programming. It needs to be highly strenuous. Otherwise, you’re not a legit runner unless you’re exhausted all the time and, and putting in all these miles and counting your miles every week as you prepare for the marathon. And so the, you know, those in-between ideas like your, like your workbook points out. Let’s talk about the sloth and how we can categorize our, our daily life and then figure out ways to optimize.

Katy (00:19:24):
Yeah. Well, so I encourage people to look at their day or their week or their year in terms of domains in which they’re spending time sloth, S-L-O-T-H, sleep, leisure, occupation, transportation, and home. These are the domains you’re in all of the time. For most people, certainly the people that you are talking about, fitness and athletic competition is usually gonna fall into the leisure category. It’s a exercise, right? It’s a leisure time activity. So people who have more leisure will be able to get more exercise because that’s the container in which it falls within. Now, the blurry line would be professional athletes, that’s occupation, right? So if you’re actually making money doing it, and, um, a lot of guidelines for movement come from people who move as an occupation. Not competitive athlete, but like personal trainers. Right. And so what’s important for that group to recognize is it’s a lot easier to fit movement in when you’ve made it your occupation.

Katy (00:20:33):
For everyone else, they have to balance a full occupation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so that’s something I’m always aware of. And, and why I wrote this book was to really not assume that everyone was sort of a computer worker still. Like a lot of people are labor work, labor intense. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they’re active throughout the day. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But they still don’t feel great. Like they’re getting all the, hey, they’re like, look at my, my step counter. I’m getting tons of steps. My accelerometer is moving me around, but I’m doing such a highly repetitious set of movements that it’s also not nourishing me. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I don’t have my movement macros down. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I’m doing these. Or maybe I’ve got one too much of one macro, just like a diet, you know, you’re eating too much of one macro category and you’re missing some vitamins and minerals. Uh, you can have adequate calories and still be malnourished with diet. And same goes for movement <laugh>. So you got a movement volume issue you gotta figure out, then you gotta movement macros, and then a movement micros across the slot domain.

Brad (00:21:34):
And if you’re overweight, like we were talking about before we turned the mics on, um, when I was an endurance athlete, extreme endurance athlete, training, training triathlon. Um, I did not, there was no, there was no movement quotient outside of my intensive workout regimen. And it was kind of a strange lifestyle. I mean, of course I was fit, but I was so narrowly fit that like, if the rainstorms came and I had to lift 25 pound sandbags to help my elderly neighbor not have her garage flooded, I’d wake up the next morning and I’d be all stiff and sore from, you know, a minor physical or ordeal that was outside of my narrow realm of swimming, biking, and running in a straight line. Yeah. And I think that’s really common in the fitness scene. I mean, there’s, it’s wonderful to see millions of people and mass participation growing and growing. But it’s a lot of times a really narrow sliver. Yeah. And it, you know, comes at, comes at a cost.

Katy (00:22:26):
Well, if you look at the Olympics such a, I mean, so timely ’cause they just ended, you can see there’s a lot of different ways to be physically fit. Mm. You’re sort of specialized. And so you, you know, the athletes look completely different. They have anthrop anthropometric dimensions that work better for some sports Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and don’t, and are total crap for other sports. Yeah. And so, like, there’s that reality. Yeah. Um, but what I’m always interested in is functional movement, which is something that doesn’t, I think the word gets used a lot, but I don’t know if people really understand what functional movement means. I think functional movement as a term came up when everyone’s like, Hey, everything we’re doing is very linear. Mm. Right. Like, I can’t, I, I’m fit, I can lift heavy, but I can’t reach my arms overhead anymore. <laugh>, that’s not functional.

Katy (00:23:11):
I’m gonna add, you know, some things that go overhead to be able to do it. But functional for me means will this serve this the, like, due to the law of specificity, the movements that you’re doing now are informing the movements you will be able to do in the future. Hmm. What movements are functional for an average human, you know, as we get older. Mm. And so, like, you could say, well, you know, outside of disability that removes a lot of these movements, you know, walking Mm. Carrying something, walking upstairs while carrying something Hmm. Bending over to reach your feet, putting away your own groceries, being able to get up off the ground, reducing the amount of times you fall to the ground. Right. Like there’s a real strong set. And a lot of times athletics are about the performance of the sport. They do not necessarily prepare you at all for the functional activities.

Katy (00:24:09):
Sometimes they actually remove Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or decrease your ability to do it. But that mixed messaging where athletes are fit, check, they meet our, they meet our, um, definitions of fitness. Um, but yet, and, and same for regular exercisers, right? Like they’re, they’re meeting their physical fitness guidelines, but it’s not organized to any one particular direction, or I guess I should say a different way. If you are an athlete, you movement choices are to inform your performance at that sport. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in the same way that a soldier is not looking at longevity. They’re looking at, I need to be able to do the movements that I’m doing for my job. Firemen, you know, um, any, any sort of pilots, you know, like if you have to do some physical feat, you’re training to be able to do that longer. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you’re not necessarily thinking about it serving the future, you <laugh>. So we just wanna make sure that I, I don’t think, I think that surprises a lot of people. I think it surprised you. That’s probably how we met, you know, was going, oh, I am the sedentary athlete. Right. I am physically fit, I’m meeting all the guidelines, but the guidelines were so thin they didn’t really prepare me for doing these other things that I would have to do. Yeah.

Brad (00:25:30):
I was, I was purposeful, incredibly lazy person, because you need to be, if you want to make those incremental performance gains Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it was all, it was all thoughtful and, and like, um, you know, I couldn’t, I couldn’t be bothered to lift a finger. Those sandbags messed up my next day’s workout and I have a big race coming up. Yeah. But I think so few people need to be concerned with the highest levels of elite sport and all the compromises that you have to make. Um, we, we can open ourselves up to a bigger perspective. And I’m contending that most fitness enthusiasts don’t, not to mention regular people that don’t, don’t get enough movement. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But maybe talking to the fitness enthusiasts for a moment, um, there’s still a lot of, uh, narrowness and overly stressful training habits that compromise longevity in particular,

Katy (00:26:21):
Or certainly, I don’t know if it, it affects longevity, it affects future movement. You know, like your ability,

Brad (00:26:29):
It might not affect your, your, your, the date date you die. Exactly. Like you’re gonna be hunched over more. And

Katy (00:26:33):
I think you mean like, when you’re older, like as you’re older, it’s not a sustainable practice. Like I don’t think people have really sustainable movement practices right now. Yeah. They’re trying to chip away at the guidelines. They’re following the guidelines, they’re following the well-researched guidelines. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I guess the tricky thing is, you know, it’s like the guidelines are putting a bunch of rocks into a jar and you’re like, this jar is full, it’s full of all these guidelines. And then you come along with sand and you’re like, no, here’s all these cracks that these guidelines missed, and that’s what we’re talking about is Right. And then you pull in the water and it’s like, oh, this still holds water. Like there’s a lot more space here than we thought. We put three big rocks in the jar. Yeah. And said, here you go. Right. And, um, what we’re saying is those are great rocks. There’s actually maybe nothing even wrong with the rocks, but the space around them in the jar, the context Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is more of an issue. But we’re asking, you know, someone to become a movement expert. We’re asking to educate yourself to, to understand the, the, uh, science of movement well enough to be able to make, uh, movement, diet choice. Like maybe people are educated now enough to make a dietary nutrition choice. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. We don’t have that same framework for movement.

Brad (00:27:48):
Um, yeah. And the, and at thing is that it’s so simple and integrative to whatever your lifestyle is, but it just hasn’t, I mean, it’s catching on thanks to you, but like, I’m in the airport looking around and I’m the only one doing lunges, leg swings, isometric calf hold. And like, everyone’s waiting for the same flight. There’s nothing to do. And I’m the only one putsing around or getting my mini bands out and doing monster walks, and I get strange looks and my wife laughs at me. But it’s like, why don’t we all, you know, have that type of mentality, knowing how important this is. You could do deep squats while you’re in line at the taco truck and these things add up over 365 days and so forth. But it’s not a, it’s not a huge ask like it is to commit to, you know, three days a week at 6:00 AM for your spin class and all the things that are intimidating and frustrating for a lot of, a lot of fitness folks that are trying to juggle. I mean, you hear the excuses all the time, like, yeah, why don’t you try it? I have to get my kids up for school, and then I have to do this, and then I have to do that, so I’m outta shape. And it’s like, well, if we rewind and, you know, watch those patterns, there’s so much opportunity for nons strenuous really helpful functional movement patterns.

Katy (00:29:03):
Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot of things going on in everything that you were just saying there. I do think that our construct of exercise has been part of the problem. And I think that’s what you’re referring to when you’re talking about the marketing that goes into exercise. Mm-Hmm. Because there’s not that, I mean, who’s marketing exercise? Like, there’s no, these are just individual companies trying to sell their products, right? Like

Brad (00:29:30):
Yeah. I mean, the fitness industry as a whole wants to get you sweaty and filled with endorphins. And that’s all programming is, is, you know, pushing that, that promise Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then we forgot about the repercussions. And then how much safer and more easily integrated is to just say, Hey, why don’t you rush up the staircase every time you have to go up it every day instead of buy a $1,300 StairMaster for your house <laugh> or whatever. It’s, yeah.

Katy (00:30:02):
Yeah. I definitely think a lot of individual companies or, you know, they’re, they see the whole, and they’re creating a product to meet the whole, right. Like, there’s so many cold plunge tubs, but you might not think to just not wear a sweater, you know, and let your, you know what I mean? Like, I think we have a hard time because we are training ourselves to think that the vitamin and mineral supplement was the food. You know, like even you can see how we’ve eaten, like we’ve Mm-Hmm. We’ve gone to more and more almost pre nourishing ourselves with the supplements Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> instead of looking at the whole diet to be like, what would a diet need to be Yeah. That actually made it so I didn’t need the supplements. And then slowly, no one even knows of the diet. They only know the supplements and all.

Brad (00:31:00):
You get this people, are you following, are you following, like, you’re making the analogy to exercise? Are you following? Yeah. I mean, I just wanna make sure people pause here and realize, like what you’re talking about is like, if you have a foundation of a active movement oriented lifestyle, and then you go and train for an event, or do a competitive goal or do a fitness programming, that’s the supplement. But we have it backwards, is what you’re saying.

Katy (00:31:21):
Yeah. We just I don’t think we tend to value the, the minutes. We value the hours. Right. We don’t value the light intensity. We value high intensity. It’s, and I think it might, it might just be a characteristic of a human to be oriented to what you can see and feel. And so the louder it is, therefore the, the more beneficial it is. And if you’re grappling with, again, not very much leisure time, or you have other priorities, I mean, I think it’s really tricky for someone who values, whose primary value is physical prowess, a certain physical aesthetic to comprehend that other people would not have similar values to you. <laugh>. Right? Like, because you’re like, I don’t get it. I feel amazing here. You know, and so we are, you’re talking about values. Now we all share physiologies that have certain baselines, like, everyone needs water.

Katy (00:32:29):
I don’t care what your value system is, you need water. And the same thing is, I don’t care what your value system is, we all have a pretty robust baseline for movement. But just like diet, you can tweak it. You know, movement doesn’t cross cultural boundaries very well. I’m sorry. Exercise doesn’t cross cultural boundaries very well. Because, because this is the culture that created the construct of it. And then being like, why doesn’t everyone like it? You know, we had this highly sedentary and we figured out this problem, and why don’t you all like it? And meanwhile, there’s plenty of cultures that like, we just preserve the movement that we’ve always had and it’s great. And then there’s plenty of people who don’t move at all. And then, um, inertia’s a bitch,

Brad (00:33:09):
<laugh>.

Katy (00:33:10):
And like that inertia, which is a tendency to do the same thing that you’ve always said, like that’s the, we’re it’s a psychological issue that we’re mostly dealing with. And it’s overwhelming. I’m actually working on, I have another book, not even the book that’s coming, another

Brad (00:33:25):
Book in your head.

Katy (00:33:26):
Yes. No, it’s actually almost on paper. Maybe be out next year that I wrote, um, am writing with a psychologist, Dr. Diana Hill, who’s studies ACT. Um, it’s like ACT Therapy Act therapy and, um, in psychology that helps you kind of break it down and figure out, and it’s re it’s just a whole set of like reasons people don’t, I can’t do it because of this. I, and it’s just, I can’t remember the number, like 40 excuses, <laugh> reasons.

Brad (00:33:53):
It’s a good title for a book.

Katy (00:33:54):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I know I should exercise, but is the name of the exer is the name of the book. Nice. And then you have to figure out what is the, the, like what is the skillset? There’s a flexibility of mind we’re missing, right. For you, you see movement as fitting into an airport, but a lot of people don’t think that’s okay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like their backgrounds of what was, what was told for them to do or not do you know the amount of people that would find them disruptive, but maybe not you, you know, maybe like the way you look gives you a greater pass for that kind of stuff. Like, this guy’s an athlete, you know, like, we’re not gonna bother him.

Brad (00:34:33):
I just don’t care about conventions and rules and maybe

Katy (00:34:36):
You don’t care. I’m

Brad (00:34:37):
Right. I’m a unique example, but I do feel like people could join me a little bit. Yeah. You could get a little bit outta your comfort zone. Yeah.

Katy (00:34:42):
Yeah. I actually wanted to work with a major airport to create movement rich permission giving spaces, because I think that we’re, we believe that we’re need to be still Yeah. To be okay. To make everyone else feel okay. And, I was even thinking of just like reaching out to say, like, if you painted on the wall, like stand and stretch here, just that paint job would one, tell people, given them an idea? Two, give them permission,

Brad (00:35:13):
Even if it’s empty. Even if it’s empty, it’s still painted there. I

Katy (00:35:16):
Think people are afraid. They’re like, I don’t know if I should be able to go into this section of the airport. Yeah. Where you’re like, I don’t care if someone’s gonna come yell at me. Yeah. I, but a lot of people have been in situations where they don’t have that freedom, you know? And so they’re just more, more reserved in that way. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So it just, I just, I’m trying to bring a broader understanding that I don’t always think it’s people don’t know or they don’t care. Yeah. I think it’s, this world is a very built place and the cultural construct is, is deep. And you have to really want movement. I think it’s a kind of a salmon swimming upstream.

Brad (00:35:53):
I mean, You know, things are changing slowly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in our lifetime, especially my lifetime, when, you know, I was a little kid that smoking was a allowed everywhere, including the, the, the Lakers basketball game. I’d go to The Forum <laugh>, and you’d, you’d see visible smoke with the, you know, the stage lights coming from the top, like watching the, the NBA. It’s unthinkable now. Or, or, you know, the, the smoking section of airplanes where you’d have to hold your breath before you made it to the bathroom on, on a transcontinental flight. So it, it’s nice to see all that progress, but yeah, this, this movement thing, and to make it separate and distinct from the fitness industry and how many club memberships there are and all these, you know, the, there’s 50,000 people finishing the New York City marathon, but like, what about the people watching where they, you know, take the subway instead of walk a mile so they can clap and then go back to their apartment and sit there. That’s where we, that’s where we need some progress. Yeah.

Katy (00:36:43):
We’re, we just see them as two distinct things. Like we’re really focused on athleticism and we don’t really recognize movement. We don’t like, uh, neat. Right. Non-exercise, um, non-exercise activity thermogenesis, this idea that all the, the high volume of light activity minutes. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> or movement calories as I like to call them. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we just don’t find them valuable. Like, we’ll, we think we have no time a lot of the times, but it’s like, you’ll be picking someone up and you’ll just sit in your car for eight minutes on your phone and Yeah. You could just get up and out of the car and,

Brad (00:37:18):
Do leg swings. You

Katy (00:37:19):
Could do anything. You could just, I mean, even if you stood outside your car and reached to touch the top of it Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Right. That’s a mobility exercise. Yeah. You don’t, even if you feel uncomfortable swinging your leg around in your bright yellow shirt, then don’t do that. Yeah. But there’s plenty of things you can do. Yeah. You know, and I, I think we’re not, we don’t value minutes. Right. We’re telling everybody these big things that they have to have, because I think, you know, from a governmental standpoint or like a medical institution standpoint, you see all the cardiovascular disease that’s coming up and you’re trying to figure out what to tell that person the minimums. And, you know, doing a cardio machine for 20 minutes, three or four times a week will save your life. Mm-Hmm. There’s nothing wrong with doing that.

Katy (00:38:06):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that’s what they need. And so how do we hold space to say, this is what you need, and it’s also not the only thing that you need. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that’s the bigger message you’re trying to get across, is, is there’s nothing really wrong with any of these activities. It’s the context in which they’re doing them that can sometimes set you up for failure, set you up for injury, and then, you know, you’re talking a lot of time about running. You know, so that’s even a greater impact thing that’s different than going on the elliptical three or four times a week. It’s markedly different. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, there’s a lot. There’s impact. There’s it’s more freeform. So it allows, like, I mean, think of the elliptical in the machines that kind of hold your feet in place and Mm-Hmm. And you don’t have any of that. Right. When you’re, when you’re running, there’s no set, you know, like you think maybe you’re supposed to strive for, should I be doing a 5K, a 10 K? I don’t know. Yeah. I just started, there’s a, there’s a lot of openness to it. I think that is a good place to get an injury or, or just not know how to go stepwise. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I think we don’t know how to go stepwise. Yeah. We’re not trainers. How would we know? Yeah.

Brad (00:39:12):
Yeah. I wonder if it’s, you know, this, this, uh, pursuit of the dopamine high, the instant gratification that’s overwhelmed, uh, modern life. Um, Dr. Robert Lustig’s book, the Hacking of the American Mind, he lists like the 11 things that are the main, you know, instant gratification with food, digital technology, intermittent variable rewards where you have changing, uh, you know, text messages and, and social media scrolling. And so if that mentality is applied to exercise and fitness, we’re going for, like you mentioned earlier, we’re going for the achievements and the finisher medals. And, uh, I’ll do whatever it takes to, to get that medal and, and cross the finish line, even if it, you know, it comes at the cost of my health. That that mentality is probably leaking in there where it’s not as satisfying to spend four minutes while you’re waiting in line doing some deep squats or whatever.

Brad (00:40:05):
It’s more like, I’m gonna go to the 6:00 AM class, rock the, the music and sweat and get, you know, filled with endorphins, which we know is you’re allowed, it feels good. But if you continue to chase that endorphin high, you become, in a sense, an addict. And there’s a lot of downsides and negative repercussions to the extreme chasing of the endorphin high, which is, you know, a segment of the fitness industry is guilty of that. And they’re, they’re, they’re pushing really hard. But even the the medium person who’s just a gym goer, they, they’re not thinking of the other opportunities throughout the day that might add up to be even more important.

Katy (00:40:41):
I mean, I do think you can absolutely drugify movement. If you ever read Dopamine Nation,

Brad (00:40:48):
Who’s the author?

Katy (00:40:49):
Anna Lemke. Yeah,

Brad (00:40:51):
Yeah. From Stanford. I had her on the podcast. Yeah. Oh,

Katy (00:40:53):
Yeah. Yeah. She was great. I really,

Brad (00:40:54):
Really enjoy her work. And then the detox, you need to stop for 30 days if you want to clear out your Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Your habits,

Katy (00:41:00):
You know, so I mean, I, I do think you can drugify anything. Um, I think that we are really so now constantly dopamined up, you know, like dopamine’s always available. It didn’t use to Right. Dopamine,

Brad (00:41:18):
You have to work for it.

Katy (00:41:18):
Dopamine and movement really go hand-in-hand, those systems within the body. I mean, dopamine is sort of a, it’s a, it’s a trans neurotransmitter to get you to get you moving. Right. So the fact that you can get it without moving, I think is really problematic. It sort of disables your movement systems. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so, you know, it’s like the fact that you can watch someone else do a workout on Instagram and

Brad (00:41:43):
Oh, I never thought about it that way. Yeah. It’s, or just watch the Olympics and That’s right. You know, it’s very be, be so inspired. Yes. And then you don’t have to exercise because you turn it on next day and you’re inspired again. Well,

Katy (00:41:53):
Who watches all, I mean, why do we have so many cooking shows? The number of people who watch cooking shows these amazing things and then never cook anything themselves like, right. Like we are in this.

Brad (00:42:04):
Is that a thing? Is that

Katy (00:42:05):
It’s a total thing?

Brad (00:42:06):
Is that a research proven statement there and assertion? What, what about the remodel shows? Same. Your shitty house full of crap all over and they got a new bathroom and they chose the blue counter to go with the yellow backing. Yeah.

Katy (00:42:18):
Yeah. It’s like, it’s

Brad (00:42:19):
Like, it’s just like aspirational.

Katy (00:42:21):
It’s aspirational. Yeah. But it’s, and I think it’s supposed to be inspirational, but

Brad (00:42:26):
I innocently asked a cold plunge manufacturer if they thought that their product was an aspirational purchase. So like, if you pop for a cold plunge and you tell all your friends, I just threw down a bunch of money to check out this thing in my backyard. It’s like that whole experience of being that badass could be a driving force behind the purchase. They didn’t like me asking that question, <laugh>. I was just saying like, do you feel like these people are using it or are they’re just buying it to be badass to show that they have a cold plunge in their yard? We’ll find out I guess, later, but hopefully they’re enjoying it. But, um, aspirational fitness membership is the, the centerpiece and the business model of the fitness industry. Sure. Because they need to sell 7,000 memberships to make a profit and hope that only 300 people a day come. Otherwise they’d go outta business because the gym would be too crowded and they’d demand 10 more facilities. So that literally is the, is the business model of the fitness industry, is sell many more memberships than people who regularly show up.

Katy (00:43:24):
That’s interesting because I hadn’t really ever thought of it as a malevolent act, you know, like, Hey, hey, this is what we’re going to do. Like, and I don’t even know. I mean, I’ve, I’ve worked in a lot of gyms and Yeah. And, and, um, or even ran some, and that wasn’t ever, I mean, it was just more the reality of this is our space. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we’ll keep selling membership. ’cause some, someone might be stoked to come one day a week <laugh>. You know, like, you know, like I, but I, but I can hear what you’re saying there, which is Yes. The, the idea of there being one space in a town for most of the citizens of that town to come move in, it wouldn’t really work. Yeah. If everyone was in fact motivated to use their membership. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> every single or able, maybe people are motivated but not

Brad (00:44:15):
Able. I mean, it would be, uh, you know, 2 50, 300, 400 a month or something, you know, the numbers would go up ’cause they’d have to build a hundred thousand square foot fitness facility instead of 10,000 Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Which would be great. I mean, you know, let’s make that happen. Let’s see more people show up and force them to build Yeah. Build bigger things.

Katy (00:44:33):
But most gyms are empty. Yeah. I mean, I shouldn’t say most gyms I don’t even know, but I, I go to a lot of different gyms. They’re, and gyms are often spacious. They probably have their peak times Yeah. ’cause

Brad (00:44:43):
Of schedules. Yeah. You have to wait for the machine and all that. Yeah.

Katy (00:44:45):
Yeah. So there’s,

Brad (00:44:45):
But they’re, you know, they’re, they’re operable and they’re not, there’s a capacity the fire department puts on a building. Right. That’s right. They’re not maxing that out. That’s right. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. And like, besides that, we don’t need a gym really to do so many things. And especially where most people are at. They need a staircase, a mini band that costs $4, some stretch cords that cost $50. We direct you to watch the Katy Bowman home, <laugh>, Katy Bowman home tour with all the contraptions and the removal of the furniture that’s causing Yeah.

Katy (00:45:16):
But just walking, I mean, go. So I think at the end of the day, what’s your goal? And for a lot of citizens, it is simply, you know, don’t die of a heart attack when I’m 52. You know, and in, and in that case, it’s a good goal. I think that that’s a, a fine goal. And it could be a daily walk that gets you there. So, I mean, different people have just different goals with their movement. And so, you know, if they’re going and doing their one thing, it’s probably has to do with, um, either their goal, you know, being easily attained by doing that volume of movement and that type of movement or their following external or extrinsic guidelines. And they’re like, I’m just doing what the experts say to do Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Like, I’m, I’m just doing that to a T. Which happens a lot. Yeah. I mean, I, I know a lot of very fit, very fit people, um, very, even athletes who are Right. Like, who are like, my body no longer works <laugh> and I followed even my training to my sport to a T ’cause what’s not disclosed is we’ll get to do this sport for this many years. Mm. And we just don’t have the whole picture until we’re on the other side of it. Mm-Hmm.

Brad (00:46:32):
<affirmative>. Yeah. That’s tough. I mean, you, you’re, you know, Simon Whitfield, your neighbor across the water. I don’t, he’s from Victoria. He’s the Olympic gold medalist in triathlon in 2000, silver medal 2008. And I was interviewing him like, you know, after he retired several years, leaving the circuit. And I said, what’s your training like these days? He goes, well, today I’m coached by my 80-year-old self <laugh>. And it was the greatest one liner. Like That’s right. He wants to honor his 80-year-old self looking down and, and seeing what, what workouts you’re doing today as opposed to when he is going for the gold medal, obviously. Sure. That’s something in the 80-year-old self with frown upon. That’s right. Except for the, yeah. There are other elements there. But, you know, a lifelong commitment to fitness, it’s

Katy (00:47:12):
The body politic, like Right. You are, you are your own political landscape and different parts are negotiating for power at some times. And, you know, to be aware that there’s, it’s just trade-offs. You’re constantly making trade-offs. It’s just that I don’t think everyone recognizes that they’re making trade-offs. And I don’t think you get to know them all either. You know, life’s very unpredictable. Trying to control life is, is tricky. I think you wanna be prepared for a lot of things, but, you know, a time of injury and not being able to move can absolutely hit anyone at any time. And you can’t really avoid it. And I think when you’re more of like the worried well type where you’re like the optimize, like, I’m gonna make sure nothing ever goes wrong. I’m gonna stay in front of this thing all the time. Yeah. Yeah. There’s gonna be a time where that doesn’t work out for you. Mm. But stepping into it as I think you need to be physically prepared for whatever happens. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I think you also need to be mentally prepared to know that you don’t get to control everything and movement doesn’t offset all of the things. Like both of those realities are true. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Everybody.

Brad (00:48:19):
Do the best you can. Yeah. You do the best you can. There’s no, no guarantees. Nope. Yeah. Um, I wonder what’s, one of the things that I feel is in the way now is the digital age. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and the constant ability to be entertained and connected, which probably compromises movement more so than any other thing on the, on the health checklist. Sleep. Yeah. And movement. And, being, being my age almost 60, you know, like half of my life or more, was completely devoid of an internet connection. So I can harken back to those times where, you know, especially as a kid, you’re bored. You, you get out and, and move around. And now I, I guess that’s, you know, been, been managed by screen engagement. You’re never bored. You don’t have to go and do anything. Yeah.

Katy (00:49:08):
You were saying you can recall those times by Harken, I imagine your me, like Yeah. Yeah. You can remember. Yeah. Do you feel like you can also call on the skillsets that you developed during that time? Or did, are you just remembering?

Brad (00:49:23):
Uh, you know, the way I think about this is, um, I’m, as far as managing my own, um, hyper connectivity and screen addictions and so forth. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I feel like I’m highly vulnerable type Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> maybe ’cause of that. ADHD you guys were talking about in the other show. Mm-Hmm. And like, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m quick thinking and quick moving Mm-Hmm. And I wanna get a lot done in a day, and I wanna never be bored and that kind of thing. Yeah. So I feel like I am, um, an easy target. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I have to exert a ton of discipline and mindfulness to not succumb. And I feel like I’m doing a decent job at that. And I like to turn my phone, uh, away and put it away, or, or this and that. But at the same time, like, if you get me if you get me going, I’ll be watching high jump videos on YouTube instead of writing my book. And I realize that like, come on, come on doofus. You know, get back to your manuscript. And so it’s like a constant daily battle for me, but I’m hyper aware of it because I’m such an easy target for the algorithms I suppose. Mm-Hmm.

Katy (00:50:24):
<affirmative>. I, I just had like five thoughts in my head. Yeah. So that’s a mouthful right there. I mean, it’s a lot. I mean, I think that this is what we’re up against and I, I think, you know, as I have kids in this age, you know, into this age of information Mm-Hmm. Age of technical, like digital information. I like my priority is to make sure they have the muscle memory of not having those things as opposed to not having it. Because I do think part of exerting a little decision making around it is that you can recall, you’ve had some skill sets of what do I do without this? Where I think a a lot of the future generation does not have a skillset. There is no muscle for not having it. Yeah. I’m teaching a volunteer teaching a class about cyber civics for elementary school kids.

Katy (00:51:12):
And, and we were talking, I’m like, where’s the internet? How old is texting? Like, and they’re, and just to hear their thoughts around they can’t operate in a, they can’t imagine their world as they know it, um, being different eight years ago. You know what I mean? Like, it’s ubiquitous for them. Yeah. And so I just am trying to give them, you know, maybe it’s the same reason that people go to Renaissance Faires or to, you know, or to go, when you go to like, uh, the visitor’s center of, you know, in place for different indigenous peoples. You’ll be like, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And here’s what was eaten in this space, and, and here’s Yeah. Here was the house building technique of the time. Like you’re, you’re seeing, you’re trying to keep a memory of the broader picture. So I think that that is really important.

Katy (00:52:07):
And then also I think, as you were saying, to recognize the novelty of this environment. Hmm. You know, you know what, what I was thinking when you were saying is the trouble with the algorithm is that is on a device that you also find pretty useful. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Where Halloween candy <laugh> doesn’t really have something that you’d say, well, yeah, well I have to keep it in, you know, I’m, I gotta keep it around. Like, I’m not gonna not get a blood sugar drops. Yeah. Of course. I need something in drawer. Exactly. Exactly. Like we just have this whole narrative around this tool. Yeah. But imagine that everyone said, well, in order to get a membership to Costco, you have to flash me a piece of Halloween candy. Right. <laugh>, like, as everyone’s woven Halloween candy into every single thing, of course everyone has to have one. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

Katy (00:52:54):
And so, like, I definitely am trying to like, figure out when something doesn’t really have a beneficial purpose, it’s easy to put it in a category. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to it’s easy to step away. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to leave it. Um, it’s a lot harder when you’ve said it’s an essential tool. Your kid can’t go to school without one. Mm-Hmm. You can’t fly on a plane without one. I mean, like, we’re weaving it into the fabric of everything, so Mm-Hmm. Then, you know, unless you, I mean, it’s not even just like a flip phone, like a flip phone. Phone won’t even work in all these scenarios. Right. You know, it has to be

Brad (00:53:33):
Where’s your boarding pass on your

Katy (00:53:34):
Flip phone phone? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. It’s like, well, lemme go through my tiny photos and see, I can see if you can scan the QR code from this teeny tiny photos. Mm-Hmm. <laugh>. Um, but I definitely think it’s impacting movement more than we think it is. Mm. It’s, it’s impacting not just like easy things posture, total physical activity. I think it’s derailing your inertia. It’s derailing your ability to make the choice to move. I mean, it’s, it’s like having to go uphill carrying a giant bag. It’s like, I think of the movie The Mission with Robert De Niro. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Did you ever see that? And he has, he’s dragging around, you know, he’s kinda just had this huge anchor like chains and he was just, he made himself, he was punishing himself. Drag it all around. But I feel like that’s, it’s like an albatross a sort of, you’re dragging it around for this, you know, good thing that it might be good for. But <laugh>, I like Anna’s work. She’s like, turn off, you know, put it on gray scale. Get rid of some of the brain harnessing effects a little bit. Get rid of some of the apps. See if you can truly prune it down to The actual good parts and not the stuff that’s, um, you know, like the same reason I take junk food outta my house. You know, if I’m trying to get everyone focused on anything certain

Brad (00:54:50):
Ways. Yeah. That’s a, an obvious one that everyone can relate to and probably a lot of people doing a good job at. But this one’s a little more of a tougher battle when you talk about the technology.

Katy (00:54:59):
It’s tougher because again, you gotta keep, like, when you’ve made choice of like, no one wears a watch anymore ’cause they got a phone, you know, and no one has a map anymore,

Brad (00:55:06):
or a smart watch at least. Yeah.

Katy (00:55:08):
Yeah. So it’s just a, I think you, it’s hard to leave it, right. It’s just we gotta get practicing leaving it, and not only for screen free weeks or whatever, but for a couple hours every day. <laugh>. Like, you don’t need to be looking at it in the toilet in the first 15 minutes of your day.

Brad (00:55:24):
Yeah. I mean, that’s one of my, that’s one of my strategies is I, I jump out of bed and I immediately begin my, my morning exercise. ’cause if I don’t, I’m gonna get sucked in. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, you talk about the inertia before and, you know, it affects so many things. One of ’em is your, your dietary habits are influenced by your inactivity, your screen habits, I’m sure. And so you just kind of get lulled into Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, they, the classic modern life approach where, you know, you’re, you’re sacrificing your health just to, I guess, get dopamine triggers throughout the day.

Katy (00:56:00):
Well, if you’re meant for, do, I mean, dopamine triggers are how we work. It’s just, it’s harnessing our nature. I don’t, I mean, we’re not, we’re not really going against nature. Like we’re right with it. They’ve figured out how to harness our nature Right. With it. It’s just sort of our missing scale. We’re,

Brad (00:56:18):
We’re, we’re, we’re still following all our primal biological drawing.

Katy (00:56:23):
We’re following our blueprint. Yeah. Our, we are act. This is what our blueprint does in this scenario. Yeah. So since it’s all reflexive, to me, the thing to change is the environment. If not, you have to start dealing with things like willpower and, you know, and those are, those are tricky spaces to

Brad (00:56:43):
Be, it’s a diminishing resource. Yeah.

Katy (00:56:44):
Yeah. It’s a tricky, it’s a tricky, like, I didn’t, I don’t wanna have to be making choices like

Brad (00:56:49):
That all the time. Yeah. You use willpower. Everyone. That’s the secret. Attentional

Katy (00:56:52):
Fatigue.

Brad (00:56:52):
Thanks.

Katy (00:56:53):
Yeah. Yeah. We’re attention, we’re a fatigued potentially not just what we’re consuming, but what we’re trying to not consume Yeah. Every minute of the day because it’s so available. So just, yeah. I mean, I wonder what filming of a video of my house would be like today. You know, like

Brad (00:57:08):
2024 version.

Katy (00:57:09):
Exactly. You know, it’s, you know, we have a TV, but our TV What? We have a TV. We have a television.

Brad (00:57:16):
People go look at the 2014 version of

Katy (00:57:18):
No tv. Yeah. Well, we have, I mean,

Brad (00:57:20):
We jungle, jungle gyms and Yeah.

Katy (00:57:22):
We still have

Brad (00:57:22):
That monkey bars and,

Katy (00:57:23):
But our TV goes away. It, so it’s, there’s no TV set up in a house. We haul it out. Oh, we wanna watch something. And when we’re done,

Brad (00:57:31):
You, you’re an owner of a tv. We’re

Katy (00:57:32):
An owner of a tv. It’s

Brad (00:57:33):
On a shelf in the closets. Let’s bust out, let’s watch a movie. It’s in the

Katy (00:57:36):
Closet under the blanket. That’s

Brad (00:57:37):
Beautiful. Yeah. So, oh, there’s Andrew pulling up the, uh, the old version. Oh,

Katy (00:57:41):
Those are the days

Brad (00:57:41):
You look exactly the same today though. That’s, that’s

Katy (00:57:44):
Interesting. All I see is before I had gray hair,

Brad (00:57:47):
So you’re looking at like an before, before was being down Indoor jungle gym in a kid’s bedroom in Katy’s discussing how this is, this is what kids need instead of whatever the race car bed or whatever the modern, spoiled, spoiled kid gets. I don’t know. So the environment, I mean, we had a whole podcast of you telling you how you’re walking around town and you walk 44 miles on your 44th birthday and all that, all that aspirational stuff that maybe in a lot of people won’t do, but like that.

Katy (00:58:14):
But you can take a walk around your block. Yeah, yeah. You know, just, I mean, really. I discovered if I didn’t get outside within like the first 20 minutes of waking up, it’d be really hard to get out the rest of the day. It’s like I just sort of settled into whatever I started doing. And, um, so going outside, whether it was for 10 minutes or for an, I try to like walk for an hour in the morning. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> as it’s a way to connect with my friends if I can. Um,

Brad (00:58:41):
Yeah. Remember you walked to Primal Con when you presented at our, at our conference in Oxnard, and we’re like, do you need a ride? We’ll pick you up. Your talk is at 10:00 AM She goes, no, I’m good. I’m, or you know, you talk to us early in the morning. Yeah. But you, you left at like, oh, dark hundred to walk numerous miles to the, to the main stage. And then here she is. She’s coming. Here she is across the park. You can see her walking. Here. She goes, she’s

Katy (00:59:04):
Literally, there she goes. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I love walking for transportation. Very, very functional. And it fits in walking for exercise. Harder to fit in the volume that I’m after. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. ’cause again, le I don’t have a lot of leisure time. Um,

Brad (00:59:19):
Too busy writing books every day.

Katy (00:59:20):
Well, I mean, mean just life is busy. Like Right. You know, we just don’t have a ton of leisure time. I, I try to optimize. I’m not just trying to optimize my physical self, but like we do a lot of things in the community and with other families and, and volunteering. Like, I’m thinking of optimization in a community-rich way. And, um, I can’t be the center. I’m not the center all the time. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I have to figure out a way to get my needs met while I’m not the center. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because I think the nice thing about leisure time and movement is you’re self centering. And I think that that’s healthy to do, but I think not always doing it is also healthy to recognize that you’re a member of a family, you’re a member of a community. Yeah. And so how do you get movement in those spaces too? That’s my jam. Yeah.

Brad (01:00:03):
And especially, you know, being creative with the workday and those, those other things on the sloth list. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. There’s so many things to do. I remember when I asked you permission if it was okay for me to switch from stand up to sit down to sitting on the ground. ’cause I’m kind of, I buzz around, I go into different rooms during my workday. I’m working on my laptop. And you’re like, that’s, that’s the best. I’m like, all right. I got permission.

Katy (01:00:26):
Yeah. Fidgeting, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because you’ve been told the whole time, probably that fidgeting was breaking up. Everyone’s, their ability to focus or whatever you’re, you know. Right. Whatever. You’re messing up the classroom focus. But yeah, no

Brad (01:00:37):
Flexibility. It was also that I couldn’t stand up all day. Like, some people stand up all day at their desk. I’m like, I can’t do that. My back gets tore, my foot, my whatever. Yeah. So variation. Hey, this was fun. I know you got a busy weekend schedule and off to the next, off to the next races. So thanks for sharing. I think, you know, I’ve pulled out some great, you know, inspirational tips, how simple it is to just sprinkle stuff in, which is kind of one of your main messages. Don’t, don’t overwhelm yourself, but get out there and walk. But first thing in the morning. Yeah. You tell me you’re too busy. You don’t got five minutes to take the dog out. Especially, or something like honoring something bigger than yourself.

Katy (01:01:17):
Go to bed early. Sleeping in on the other side. Oh yeah.

Brad (01:01:19):
Oh yeah. Going to bed early too. All right.

Katy (01:01:21):
Sleeping in on the other side. If you’re like, I just can’t get up, go to bed early. Like, put your, that’s a good time. As you know, everyone who’s listening to your podcast will know, probably say, put your phone away an hour or two before bed. You know? Is that a

Brad (01:01:33):
All that, all those great tips Yeah.

Katy (01:01:35):
That are so hard to

Brad (01:01:36):
Do. Yeah. Unless you’re my sister. She’s on call. I said she has an excuse. She can have her phone by her bed. The rest of you, you are not that important. Put it away. Put it far away. Mm-Hmm. Whatever. Mm-Hmm. Yeah,

Katy (01:01:45):
Just get, it doesn’t need to be part of your, it’s not a pillow, you know, it’s not like your pillow and your blanket and your phone. This is pajamas and your pajamas. You need to have phone pockets pretty soon just so you can keep your BSF with

Brad (01:01:58):
You all the time. Well, I play my Raindrop app, so sometimes my phone is nearby when I want to, you know, take a nap or fall asleep. Right. But, you know, that’s why it’s so useful. It’s on airplane mode though, so I’m not getting it. Can

Katy (01:02:09):
Anything, yeah. It’s just that it can get anything. You know, it’s just, it’s nice to sometimes not have the exact thing you think you need so that you can get the other things that you do

Brad (01:02:18):
Need. Well said. I think we got a lot to think about. Thanks for listening. Watching everyone. Katy Bowman, killing it. As usual. Thank you Andrew Z for hanging out, pulling up those videos, Power Project studios here in Davis, California. I enjoyed crashing them once again. Thanks everybody. Bye-Bye.

Brad (01:02:39):
Thank you so much for listening to the B.rad Podcast. We appreciate all feedback and suggestions. Email, podcast@bradventures.com and visit brad kearns.com to download five free eBooks and learn some great long cuts to a longer life. How to optimize testosterone naturally. Become a dark chocolate connoisseur and transition to a barefoot and minimalist shoe lifestyle.