We have a true powerhouse on the show today—Brian Sanders.
As you will hear, Brian has got his finger into everything—he’s almost like a superhuman performer because he has done so much like this incredible documentary Food Lies that you will hear about, which he has been working on for the last five or six years. The intro for the film (linked in the show notes) is truly the most sensational piece of filmmaking I have seen in a long time. This stunning film is so well-done, and it will whet your appetite for his forthcoming six-part series, expected to air on Netflix, which goes through the history of diet controversies and diet wars, human evolution, and the ancestral diet—it’s an amazing piece of work, and Brian is also doing great work through his podcast, Peak Human, which is how I was first exposed to him.
In this deep-thinking, lengthy, hard-hitting show, you will hear about how Brian’s background helps him look at things from a problem-solving lens, what the entry point was to his obsession with health and what prompted him to quit his job and change his career, and the events that led to his deep immersement in filmmaking and ancestral health. As you will hear, Brian sadly lost both of his parents when he was young, and because he grew up in such a “health-conscious” family, they didn’t realize the dangers of following conventional wisdom—at least, until it was too late. As tragic as this was, losing both his parents at such a young age is what gave Brian the motivation and passion to follow his heart and create this incredible project. You will also hear about the protein-to-energy ratio, the distinction between processed carbohydrates and natural, whole–food carbs, and a little bit about our mutual awakening to the Energy Balance concept. Brian also has a wonderful website, NosetoTail.org, where you can order sustainably raised beef and get yourself in the highest category of nutrition.
Brian Sanders is the filmmaker behind the Food Lies documentary, host of the podcast Peak Human, and an international speaker. A UCLA graduate with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, Brian works as a Health Coach at Evolve Healthcare and co-founded the health education company Sapien. He also works to spread awareness of regenerative agriculture and increase access to well-raised animal products through his company Nose to Tail.
Brad and his guest are going to talk about the distinction between processed carbohydrates and natural nutritious carbs as well as the protein to energy ratio. [01:09]
Many athletes can power through things and almost force yourself to be in decent shape despite your bad diet. For Brian, the Food Pyramid didn’t work. [05:17]
Brian was in his 30s when he changed his outlook on nutrition. [13:33]
How does Brian blend his two skills of engineering and film-making? [20:22]
It is difficult to sort through all the “experts” in order to get the correct information. [23:52]
Brian’s athletic experience includes football, track (pole vault), basketball, and a multi-event competition while he fasted. Would he do that event again having fasted? [28:26]
What is the difference in carbs? All carbs are not evil. [35:09]
If you simply eliminate processed foods and eat only wholesome, nutritious, natural foods, you can’t get fat. [39:40]
Your body wants nutrients and it needs energy to get through the day, but it doesn’t need more than that energy to get through the day. [42:35]
People can try to do calorie restricted diets and just restrict the same low nutrient density foods, the same processed foods with a low nutrient energy score. But it’s not gonna work long term. [50:42]
If satiety matches the calories, you will naturally arrive at your correct body composition. [53:28]
Restrictive diets and fasting turn on stress hormones. [59:24]
Trying to figure out what the ancestors ate, one has to recognize that they lived in different areas. They weren’t all exposed to the same sources. [01:01:26]
A person who sits in an office all day, cannot follow a diet like Michael Phelps. You need to earn your carbs. [01:09:29]
Brian’s system of scoring is all animal foods are plus one, all processed foods are negative one, and plant foods are just neutral. [01:11:20]
How does one defend these strong convictions when you run into people who challenge? [01:17:31]
The real enemy is the highly processed foods. Seventy-one percent of the modern diet comes from entirely non-human, non-paleolithic foods. [01:25:09]
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My friends, I have a true powerhouse on the show today. This guy is gonna rock your world. His name is Brian Sanders, and he’s got his finger into everything. He’s like a superhuman performer doing this incredible documentary called Food Lies. He’s been working on it for five or six years now, and if you watch the intro, it’s longer than a trailer. It’s just a three or four minutes long, but it is the most sensational piece of filmmaking I have seen in quite some time. It is absolutely stunning, dramatic, extremely, well done with incredible animation. And it’s going to wet your appetite for his, uh, forthcoming six part series that he expects to get on Netflix very soon. And it’s going through all the history of the, the diet controversy, the diet wars, human evolution, the ancestral diet, really amazing piece of work. He’s doing great work with his Peak Human podcast, and that’s how I was first exposed to him, is listening to one show than another, than another.
And it’s just really great interviews with interesting guests, and he goes deep into, uh, all manner of topics on this show. So we have a wonderful, lengthy hard hitting, deep thinking show, uh, but nothing too scientific or that’s gonna have you fall behind. He’s, uh, great with these basic everyday insights, especially as he’s come to these realizations and this common ground. And he’s trying to find common ground interviewing all the great experts, uh, trying to be unbiased and open-minded. He’s referencing his engineering background of just looking at this from a problem solving lens. But he’s gonna tell you about the entry point for his obsession with health and quitting his job, quitting his career, and jumping into this filmmaking and this deep immersion into ancestral health. And it’s pretty disturbing and sad. And it was about losing both his parents at a young age and realizing that even this health conscious family who were doing what they were told by conventional wisdom, uh, did not succeed.
And they plunged into disease tragic, uh, but that gave him the passion, the enthusiasm to, to follow his heart and do this great project. He also has a nose to tail.org website where you can order spectacular sustainably raised beef and get yourself on the, uh, the the highest category of nutrition. We’re gonna talk about the protein to energy ratio. We’re gonna talk about, uh, the distinction between processed carbohydrates and natural nutritious carbohydrates. A little bit of our mutual awakening to this energy balance concepts that are promoted very well by Jay Feldman and others. And rethinking and remaining open minded to new information. Uh, same thing with the carnivore movement and how we’ve both embraced that and recalibrated our opinion. So you’re gonna hear from a sharp young guy who’s kicking butt in Austin, Texas. I’m gonna give you a bunch of links to connect with him, Uh, but especially you gotta spend a few minutes watching this incredible introduction to his production called Food Lies.
It’s Brian Sanders, people, and go follow the Peak Human podcast. He’s got a lot of good content there too. Brian Sanders, I’m such a fan of your work, and now we got you on the podcast. Thanks for joining us. We have so many awesome things to talk about, starting with your awesome studio background there. If you’re watching on YouTube, we got the beautiful Peak Human logo. We got the Sapien Deion sign, and we’re also gonna get into this, uh, incredible documentary that you’ve been working on for quite a long time. And it, it frames kind of this whole experience. But I think we should start with your journey, uh, to, to the point that’s taking you here. You had this athletic background. Um, you were, you know, uh, seeking help. Uh, I saw the beautiful trailer for your movie Food Lies, and you talked about the misfortune that came to your parents, and that really was an eye-opener. So I think everyone might be interested to, uh, to, to take that starting point.
Awesome. Thanks Brad. Yeah. Fan of your work as well. Man, sad story. My, I lost both my parents when I was around 30. And, you know, that’s pretty young to basically have no parents. And it was also around the same time where I couldn’t eat anything I wanted anymore. I think like a lot of these athletes like yourself probably, you know, you just, you can power through things and you almost force yourself to be in decent shape despite your bad diet. Right. And, uh, I
Especially, under the age of 30, I guess, and what do they talk about in, in the fraternity world? You go from a a six pack to a pony keg. Uh, you know, when, when you’re 20 you got the six pack, and when you’re 30 you got the pony keg.
And that was happening. I was getting, the dad bod, I, I kind of had the dad bod. I was sort of round shaped and I was eating the food pyramid diet actually grew up. Our, my parents, we grew up, we were following it to a t. And so that, that was part of my big problem is that we did what we were told. So not only did my parents do what they’re told and both, you know, lose to chronic illness, but it’s the same thing was happening to me. And that’s what got me super mad about just the whole system. Like we were eating. I grew up in Hawaii. Um, I guess, yeah, my quick background, grew up in Hawaii, went to a great school got into ucla, mechanical engineering, did some great engineering work, had a career, and that moved to tech then.
Well, I actually grew up with film, so I, I got back into film later in life and, and jumping ahead to five years ago when I started the film, um, that’s, you know, I kind of just got back to those film roots. But, uh, the, I think the engineering stuff really did help me get that foundation of, you know, root cause and figuring out the problem and sort of this unbiased thing. I always say, Well, I love my doctor friends, but, and a lot of them admit it that they are just completely indoctrinated in medical school, right? And they just, this is what’s in the textbook and this is what my professor said, and this is what the doctor said. And they just have this view of nutrition and the pharmaceutical sick care system, and they just are all, that’s just what they do, right?
This is like, of course, this is what we do. We just get the pills, we get the surgeries, we’re done. No one ever changes their lifestyle, partly because we’re recommending terrible diet advice. Of course, they’re not gonna stick to it. But I, I didn’t, I didn’t have that. I didn’t have that to deal with, right? I came from the side. So even the other people in the health world, they still go through the dietician schools and get indoctrinated into the same bad stuff. So kind of helped, just, I came to this like, Hey, what is the right diet? Like, what should we eat? Cuz I ate the food pyramid and it didn’t work. And, you know, we were seriously, we would eat lean chicken, all the vegetables, all the breads and pastas. It was exactly the food pyramid. We didn’t go out to eat a lot. My, you know, my parents were very thrifty. It was just like once a month. It was like the big trip to McDonald’s. And you know, it, it was, we didn’t eat at restaurants. We just made our own food. We used the vegetable oil, We did the whole thing and look where it got us,
Right. So this is a health conscious making choices in the name of health and, and the desire to be healthy rather than the oblivious. We have to categorize that differently. And when you talk about the food pyramid, that’s been the government recommendation for decades. It’s changed to a plate, but it has all this, what, whatever you want to call it. And, uh, you’re coming into this from unbiased. So, um, it’s nice that we don’t have to, you know, continue to slam the powers that be as corrupt and crooked and all that. But I think the most important statement is you, you did what you were told. The family did what they were told, and it, and it didn’t work out. And so that’s, that’s a real eye-opener. That’s a cause for reflection and, and recalibration.
So, yes, exactly, because there are tons of people in America that are sitting there eating fast food. They’re drinking Mountain Dews and eating chips, and of course they’re not doing well. That was not us. So that kind of made me mad in retrospect. I look back and, and I realized they had pre-diabetes and no one told them for the film where we looked it up, the CDC says, even the CDC says eight out of 10 people who have pre-diabetes don’t know it. Right? So we are really bad at recognizing this, and the doctors don’t know what to look for, or the reference ranges are way too high. You know, you could show up with a high A1C, the high fasting blood sugar, like pretty high, uh, blood pressure, all these things, and no one says anything. And you know, you have like, the belly basically have the dad bod and everyone’s like, Oh, well, everyone has a dad bod and everyone has these, you know, elevated glucose and no one checks for insulin. You know, it’s not like we’re doing like these fasting insulin tests or anything. And so, of course, they didn’t know what was going on. Now I know all the signs of prediabetes, I know what was going on, and they just were going about their life and no one told ’em. And then cancer and Alzheimer’s. So that’s why I’m making the film. That’s my background. This is my mission now. I quit my job five years ago, started making this film, didn’t really have a plan, and things kind of just kept rolling since then.
So you’re, uh, you’re, you’re claiming to be unbiased, and are you, are you saying that other documentary filmmakers are not unbiased?
? That’s funny. Yeah. Well, I saw, What the Health, five years ago. So that’s the,
Yeah, I was forced to watch that too by my, my roommate at the time. So I sat through the whole thing, um, trying to be polite and get to the finish line. But it was interesting how, um, a skilled filmmaker can present as unbiased and thoughtful, and let me interview this person and let me interview that person mm-hmm. . And by the end, you can, you can see how easy it is to be drawn into whatever the propaganda, uh, that, that’s being, that’s being presented. And I know the other film that got a lot of attention, The Game Changers with all the athletes performing well, and the numerous experts interviewed and, uh, so many people did an excellent job, you know, breaking that down, uh, frame by frame and, and, you know, presenting the, the ancestral counterpoint. But there were also also a lot of people that watched it without advanced knowledge and steep, uh, diving into, uh, the health scene. And were strongly convinced that the message presented by the movie. So I think I’m teeing up a question for you that, you know, what was your ambition with this film and what kind of preconceived notions did you have besides the fact that you were frustrated because the government recommendations were a disaster?
Absolutely. We’ve gotta back up a little bit. And the Game Changers, I was one of those people that made, I made a full film debunking the Game Changers. It was the same length as their film. Put it up on YouTube. I mean, film is a loose quote we made in three weeks, and we put it on YouTube. But, uh, our, our good pal, Mark Sisson was in it. We had Paul Saladino, Shawn Baker, Dr. Georgia Ed,e Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, Dr. Jaime Seeman. We got a bunch of people to come in and debunk it. So that’s on my Food Life YouTube channel. And then, yeah, you can weave anything you want if you have no counterpoints, right? You need that. We kind of did show a little clip and then stop it and say, Well, what was wrong with it? If you don’t have someone stopping and be like, Hey, hey, hey, wait a second, Let, this is not right at all.
Or they found the one vegan anthropologist in the world, and they interviewed that one lady who was trying to say that we like starches. Yeah, we ate, we had starches in it, like made us human. Like no, it was animal foods. So, so yeah, you gotta watch out for those. And so, yes, I, I’m constantly trying to, to check my bias and not, you know, it’s, it’s hard because everyone has their biases and it’s just part of being human. So I’m constantly trying to check myself. I nowadays, I I say I’m in camp, no camp, My whole goal, which is kind of a camp, but I kind of wanna be in this camp no camp, where it’s just like, Hey, if, if new information comes to my way, I’m there. And we actually talked about this before the show, and in emails, we have this new, you know, we’re, we’re investigating the pro metabolic diet, or some people called the bio-energetic way of eating.
It’s this different thing that challenges our assumptions. I’m all about it. I’m okay, because it still kind of makes sense in the general scheme of things where the, you know, it doesn’t break apart everything, uh, because it’s like, we’re, we’re talking about eating whole foods. We’re talking about eating ancestral foods. Meat is good. They’re just saying, Oh, well, maybe we could run on glucose as well. But they’re saying natural, like, Well, let’s eat fruit and honey. You know, they’re not saying Go drink Coca-Cola and Mountain Dew and eat Kit Kat bars, you know? So we’ll get back, we’ll get into that later. But I have to answer your question cuz uh, the film, So my journey started about eight years ago. I just turned 39, like a couple days ago. So when I was thirty, so my journey probably started eight years ago with another mention to Mark Sisson, the Primal Blueprint.
So my friends were changing their health, you know, getting just amazing results. And I saw them, I was like, Okay, this makes sense. This all makes sense. And so I was already down this path before I saw What the Health, right, which was five years ago. So it’s for three years, I completely changed my life. I had all these, you know, I had a dad bod, I had the allergies, I had joint pain, I had chronical use injuries, and I had acid reflux. All of those went away. All I I did was cut out basically the bread and the pasta and just eat more meat. Completely changed the game. And then I just add, instead of bread and pasta, I just saute up some mushrooms and onions, for example, right? And I just replaced that. So I, I lost the seed oils, the grains that added sugar completely changed my life, completely changed my body composition.
So that was my bias starting the film. Not only was that my personal story, which so many people listening probably have, and you know, you’ve done con on this for many years, but it was a little bit in that low carb paradigm, which I love absolutely love. And I still am pretty low carb. Very low carb actually. And I still think it’s a, it’s an amazing way. It’s like a good, a good first step. But now I’m investigating, oh, what if there’s a next step beyond that? Or maybe you don’t want to do keto for too long, or, you know, low, too low carb for too long. It’s like, maybe that’s an intervention to get you away from the standard American diet, get your health back, get really lean, get really healthy, get metabolic and flexible, and then strategically bring back in some whole food carbs.
So I’m kind of jumping ahead to like, you know, the whole stuff I want to discuss, but it’s all to tee up just what happened with the film, because I, that’s also why it’s, it’s took five years because not only did we not have a lot of funding back then, and I still don’t now, but I, I was basically gonna make a low carb film. And I, I’m so glad that it’s taken five years and we’ve had to redo a lot of interviews. And, you know, I went to Africa last year, we’re doing big things to make this way better. And the intro is super eye quality, handmade, just, you know, very custom. We’re doing everything we can to make it amazing. But along that way, I’ve kind of realized I, the world doesn’t need some low carb film. You know, there have been some, and they’ve been great, or some of them, they, there hasn’t been one, I think with a great budget yet that’s been made. But that really what the, the film has changed. And we can talk about the film and what it’s changed too, but that basically, I, I went through a learning process over these five years,
Right? I’ll bet you if you had five more years, um, you might have, uh, further changes in progressions. And I know we’re in a race against, uh, these giant, uh, evil forces, uh, just like you told the story with your family. And so I remember, you know, in the early days of working with SISs and, and, you know, cranking out these books, um, yeah, if we had five years to write the book, it, it might have been, uh, more nuanced and sophisticated. But, um, we’re also going against the bestseller list where people are telling you, um, you know, the, the, the dogma that, that it has been a widespread dismal failure, uh, to, to human health. And, um, you, you’ve said that really, really nicely, that whole, that whole thread. And, um, one thing that occurs to me, uh, when you say, uh, low carb, it’s, it’s only low carb in comparison to this modern, uh, mm-hmm.
, highly processed foods diet where the, the high profit items that are shoved in our face and the, and the snack foods and the indulgent foods are really high in processed carbohydrates. And of course seed oils as well. And so I’m always trying to check my context and my language now because, um, you know, uh, you don’t want to get, uh, pigeonholed into, um, when, when you say low carb, it could now be, it could now be, um, um, criticized because you’re deliberately restricting a macronutrient that has a lot of important roles, especially in hectic, stressed modern life, and what we’re asking out of our bodies, especially as active athletic people. But even just, you know, trying to go through a busy day and, and challenge that brain that, that the 20% of all, uh, daily calories burned by the brain and it runs largely on glucose. And so, um, this is all kind of nuanced stuff, but I think you also have to hook in the average viewer off the street. And so that’s a whole different story. Um, as your, is your trailer, I mean, your intro, is it, is it public yet? I saw a sneak preview that you shared with me, but can we find that on?
Okay. So, I
Mean, it’s on My Food Lies YouTube. Yeah.
We’ll, we’ll link to that, uh, that, that intro your, you’re obligated to watch it, listeners. Cause it’s, it’s absolutely stunning and it’s extremely well done. And that’ll, that’ll draw you right into the, um, the eventual viewing of the full length video.
Well, thank you. Yeah, it took us over a year to make that, not that we were, you know, only making that, but every single shot handmade, it tells a story. It’s only three and a half minutes. So yeah, definitely just watch it on the Food Lies YouTube channel, but it, it really sets the stage of what we’re gonna do. And, and it’s turned into a six part series too. It’s not just a film, it’s a six part series. We’re trying to get it on Netflix, and it’s Netflix quality. And if you watch the, the intro, you’ll know it’s Netflix quality and it, it’s not easy to do. Like I’ve seen other movies that I would agree with. They just aren’t Netflix quality. Well, I guess they’re kind of old too. But, uh, we’re also, we’re, we’re trying to make something that should have an entire team and a few million dollars to make. And we’re making it with a guy I grew up making films with who’s now an amazing director, editor who did that whole intro. And so it’s just us two. And then, yeah, I mean, we have a motion graphics guy. We have a composer. I mean, you know, we have these, um, contractors we use, but it really, it’s just us two.
Wow. That’s an interesting blend to be studying engineering, which is so, uh, locked in. And then you tell me about your background in film and then also how you blend those two, , those two different hemispheres of the brain to to be the, uh, the creative energy that you, that you have with your career now.
Well, yeah, I’ve, I’ve always had that. I think my mom and dad like did have these amazing both sides of the brain skill sets and brought a lot to the table. And I mean, I just grew up with a camera in my hand. I got one of these cameras, so I’m 39, so if people, I grew, I was born in 83, so I have the, uh, the first camera when I was about 12, it had a screen on, it was like the first camera that you could like, have a big screen. It was like this handheld thing that had a little rotating thing on the right,
Right. You flipped the, uh, you flipped the screen so you could see what you’re filming.
Yeah, yeah. And it was actually bigger. It was like an actual bigger screen, not like giant, but, so this was a game changer. So we would do in, in camera editing, you know, cuz we could see the screen. So we’d rewind and you, you know, you’re like actually making a film in realtime cuz we couldn’t edit, we didn’t have any editing capabilities. Mm. This is when I was 12. And just this, this is what I was obsessed with forever. Then seventh grade I started doing all the film projects, any project at school. And me and this guy, since seventh grade, we’ve been great friends, have been making videos for every project we took the classes in high school, we took, you know, the media and journalism classes, we did films that we showed to our entire school. Couple thousand people we showed these things to. So it was our obsession then. Yeah, he went to film school, I went to engineering school, . So he became a professional
My see at the dorms.
Yeah. Yeah. And then I, but then, like I said, I think the engineering side, it really helped. So I got the whole engineering side, all that root cause and like problem solving, right? Huge problem solving experience, critical thinking. So important. Then I even got into the tech world and did a lot of entrepreneurship, taught me design, taught myself to design. So basically all these things came together in the end where I, I built these skill sets and then got back into film when I was in Los Angeles. I was, for some reason my sister moved to town maybe cuz she’s like a model actress. Comedian. And she got into this sketch comedy thing and five years ago, all of a sudden I’m like producing skits and like sketch comedy stuff and I’m like, Oh man, I love film. And then that’s when I saw What the Health and you know, I was like, Oh, I can make a film. Right? So, yeah.
Wow. And so you, you had an engineering career, you had a tech career and then you just dropped everything to, to take on this project. And maybe you can transition into talking about the other stuff you do today with this, uh, Sapien organization, the podcast and the Peak Human Products. Mm-hmm.
And NoseToTail. Yeah. So I used all of these skill sets I developed and, and I, so I didn’t make any money for a couple years. I was living off my savings and then I started working with Dr. Gary Shlifer is kind of just a health, you know, we, we have a program and we just try to help people and work with Dr. Gary and I got to see patients, you know, as a health coach. So I learned so much actually seeing patients, you know, cuz people are like, Oh, what are your qualifications? I’m like, well, I mean, I I I’m very into this. I read a lot of reasons. I
Got rid of my dad Bod
Yeah, I got it. I, I have my personal story, but I mean, I’m obsessed with that. I’ve read like hundreds of books, I’ve worked with patients and really, I don’t think I’m, I’m the expert, I’m the communicator, right? I’m bringing all these things together and presenting it to people. I’m the digester, you know, I’m like the Reader’s Digest version.
Yeah. That’s, I’d like to stop there because mm-hmm. , um, we get hit with that so much. And today, virtually everyone sees the MD as the ultimate authority in the health space. And I see them as the ultimate authority in the medical space and with disease and, and, and dysfunction and when you need surgery. Mm-hmm. , we have the greatest medical system in the history of the planet. But for some reason, um, we, we attach credibility to, uh, academic degrees and we sometimes discount someone who’s living and breathing this stuff and reading a lot of books because you can’t you know, you can’t hang that on the wall like you can a diploma. Um, but I wonder how you sort these things out when you’re deciding who to interview and things of that nature. Um, to, to kind of, you know, sort through the vegan anthropologist and the other people that can pass themselves off as an expert, but actually are, you know, don’t know what they’re talking about, aren’t walking the talk. That’s one on my list. So I’m, I’m hinting you there, but, uh, how do you navigate those waters?
Yeah, well, it’s been many years and, and it hasn’t been perfect, you know, and but, but as this, this bringer together, I’m like a, a organizer. I feel like, like I’m also a community organizer, right? I’m, I’m just bringing people together. And actually, that’s one of the things I do now in Austin. I, I have a property that we’ve just leased and I’m bringing together to do this stuff in person to, you know, it’s like an ancestral health wellness center. And so this is all I’ve been doing over these eight years on my journey and five years full time is finding these great people. Like I flew to Miami to interview Mark Sisen, you know, this was, it’s like we need to get Mark Sisson, just keep my ear out for all these great people and these are the people, these doctors. And so I, I mean, I did, yes, I do have MDs and PhDs mainly in this film.
It’s just, you have to find the ones that got out of the system, right? Like they had that kind of aha moment of their own. They went on their own health journey and they’re the only ones that will publicly talk about this and risk their degrees. Or maybe they’ve left their jobs and they don’t have to deal with the systems anymore, but they still have their MD and they’re still in good standing and or, you know, active PhD researchers that say research that archeology and anthropology, you know, that’s, the stuff isn’t even controversial that we, we evolved on eating meat and animal foods and so, so yeah, I, it hasn’t been a problem to find all these great people. And you listeners will probably have heard of everyone in the film. You’ve probably interviewed everyone in the film. We have so many great people and I, and I found some more that maybe people haven’t heard of.
So, um, I, I wanna finish up my, Yeah. What I’m doing now. So, so yeah, I didn’t really have a plan. I had two years without really making money. So I started a company called NoseToTail, where we do regenerative agriculture here in Texas and raise animals the right way. And we get it out to people. So it’s, it’s kinda like Butcher Box. So that’s something that I really believe in and we use the whole animal and we, we grind up organ meats into the ground beef and we use the bones and, and all that stuff. So yeah, everything’s kind of popped up around the film Peak Human Podcast. It was actually number one in the nutrition category last week. And so I’ve just had amazing interviews with all the people that are in the film, plus a lot more sapien work with Dr. Gary, NoseToTail, get people to good meat. We have other products too, like beef jerky type products, bong from South Africa. Uh, so all I do now, this is, this is my mission life and hope the in person thing in Austin, the Wellness Center. So it’s all around this. So now I think I, I do have some decent credentials for, for knowing what I’m talking about.
You’re also, your daily schedule’s getting pretty packed, man. You’re coming into Ben Greenfield territory. I’m gonna ask, how the heck do you handle, manage all this stuff, ?
Oh, it’s a nightmare actually. It’s a lot. It’s a lot. I still get my eight hours of sleep. I’ve, I’m obsessed with always getting eight hours of sleep, but it’s, but I’m trying to meld them together, right? So I can work at the Ancestral Health Wellness center, calling it the compound or the Sapien compound. But I mean, I can be out there working on the compound itself and on the film and on my NoseToTail company cuz they’re all the same thing in a, in a way. We’re all just after on the same mission. And so the crossover helps.
Uh, tell me about your athletics too, and especially the, um, the multi-event competition that you did that fasted. I wonder if that was experimenting for the for the film or what were your takeaways from that?
It was for the film actually, but I, I just did it as a goof. I thought, see if it works. I grew up playing football and track mainly also cliff jumping and basketball and all kinds of other stuff. All
Those Hawaiian sports. All
Right. . Yeah. And, uh, so I, I was always good at multiple events. I was never, I was like sort of a jack of all trades. I I was great at pole vault growing up. I went to the state championships as a freshman and uh, you know, did well wow. I was always top in the state. But, um, Hawaii has a very low bar, literally low bar in, uh, the, the pole vault world. There’s like five pole vault pits in the state back then, . And, uh, so yeah, so I, so I got back into pole vaulting a couple years ago. Uh, I trained at UCLA with the great, what, what was his name? Anthony? Anthony
Yeah. Yep. And, uh,
Coach and uh, record setting pole vaulter at UCLA back in the eighties.
Yes. So he’s the man, he’s still coaching. I was, he coaches a lot of high school kids and, and stuff on the side from his athletes. And he hooked me up with some of the multi-event athletes, the current UCLA, you know, Decathletes. And they trained me for the other events. And, and yeah, I was, I was doing it, this was a couple years ago and I was running on fat. I was like totally fat adapted. I was telling them, he’s like, I only ate once today. And it was just a bunch of meat and fat and eggs and bacon. They’re like, What? They’re like, Where do you get your whole grains? I was like, I don’t get whole grains, man. I don’t do it. And then I had to explain to them, you know, all this stuff and even the difference between carbs, you know, like different sources of carbs, you know, like potatoes versus whole grains, which I think is a huge difference.
So anyway, that, that was amazing. I went up to Canada. It was the, it was, it was in 2019. It was before Covid, It was the Toronto, it was the North American Central American Caribbean Masters Championships. And I did the pentathlon cuz there was no decathlon. So I, I did, I did 13 feet and pole vaults in a Los Angeles meet the couple weeks before. And then I, I went to the Pentathlon in Toronto and then, and did that, didn’t eat that day. , I, I got a little piece of liver just as a goof cuz that like my camera guy was there and I was like, oh, and I ate a piece of raw liver during the meet, but that was the only food I got until 6:00 PM The meat was from 12 to five 30. So I did five and a half hours of athletics with just running on fat, no food. And I got second place, uh, there wasn’t like tons of competition, but the last event was the 1500 and there were all the athletes in the different age groups. And so I got also got second overall in all of the age groups for that 1500 running on nothing while they were doing, eating all the Goos. So that was great.
Uh, so there’s the pole vault, there’s the 1500 at the end. And what were the other three events that you contested?
So the pole wasn’t in the, the pentathlon that would only be in a decathlon. So I, Okay. I couldn’t’t find decathlon. There was none available. It’s really hard to find these events. Tell me those it
Was hard, hard to find a high jump for old mans to participate in.
Yeah, well I’m, I’m glad you’re still doing it. We were talking about there’s no more track athletes out there anymore. Yeah, it’s, But uh, yeah, so it’s the long jump, it was the 200, it was the javelin, it was the discus, and then the 1500.
Whew. And these are highly explosive events, highly glycolytic. And you’re going through a full day where there’s a lot of time gaps and there’s a lot of sitting around, but then there’s warming up and, and, and burning more calories and, and burning more energy and then taking your allotted number of throws with maximum energy output. So that is really a tough order to complete that without ingesting calories. And by and large the other athletes are sipping energy drinks and squeezing the gels throughout that, that entire six hour block. I would, I would guess. Um, and, uh, you know, so it was a folly. But I wonder, you know, what were some of the important takeaways from that? Would you do it again? Or if, if, you know, if you were training for the, for the, the maximum performance, would you, would you sprinkle in, um, some different fuels, that kind of thing?
I would, I, I did it kind of as a goof, I say, and just to see if I could do it. And I think I could have performed better with some, I like this kind of strategic use of carbs. It’s kind of like how I eat in general. It’s like strategic carbs, right? It’s like I eat, I eat like fruit or like sweet potatoes at night after my workout, you know, this is my daily life. It’s not like I’m just snacking on carbs all day. Although our guy, Jay Feldman, who we both interviewed maybe would say to do that. But anyway, I would probably do something like some fruit between events. And I’m sure you’ve interviewed Zach Bitter who does the ultra marathons and he was like pretty meat-based and kind of fat based normally. But then, you know, I interviewed him as well talking about on, you know, during the race he would use some of that, like you can stuff or something, or like, you know what I mean?
Like, during his race, he has a race diary and he inhaled all kinds of crap, you know, half a Mountain Dew, two Oreo cookies, handful of licorice energy bar gel. Uh, but the interesting point is that he is living this fat-adapted lifestyle and, you know, not over-consuming, especially the process carbs in in day to day life. Mm-hmm. Um, people have to understand when we talk about extreme endurance performers, most of those people are going at a fat burning pace. And so it correlates really nicely even with, let’s say a ketogenic diet for the person who’s going for the Appalachian trail this summer, or trying to complete a hundred mile run in 24 hours. Uh, but Zach bidder’s running a hundred miles in 11 hours and 46 minutes. So he is, if you wanna go pace him, you’re gonna last for about one mile and then you’re gonna fall off. And so he’s in these high energy burning state where he’s gonna need to supplement with additional fuel. But it’s really interesting what these, what these, uh, outliers, that’s the name of his podcast, so, you know, the, the top athletes are doing because they can inform the decisions for all of us and, and show us what’s possible.
Absolutely. So yes, I would definitely, I think I could have benefited, right? If I’m just, especially fasting like I could have eaten breakfast, at least, you know, I
Couldn’t have killed ya. You’re gonna go burn some energy.
Yeah. But yeah. Uh, so, but I appreciate, um, yeah, the thoughtful way that people are looking at carbs these days, right? And like, strategically and how there’s a big difference. I think that’s my biggest lesson lately is how big a difference there are in carbs, right? It’s like there’s, I think there’s such a difference between corn syrup, you know, like a Mountain Dew, like uh, bread, white bread in the store, seed oils, all these things compared to yeah, like real well, potatoes, fruit, honey, fat, butter, You know what I mean? Like, people still in the low carb world or the keto world still don’t, I don’t think fully appreciate the difference between carbs.
Yeah. And I guess, uh, processed foods and wholesome foods and you know, we’ve been, uh, involved in this keto movement since the beginning and now you’re looking through the grocery store and there’s all kinds of things that are wrapped, packaged, frozen, uh, that have the, the word emblazened on ’em. My neighbor proudly showed me his loaf of bread with a whole bunch of chemicals and processed items on there. But somehow it qualified as keto because they were using, um, you know, the, uh, resistant starches or, or whatever was putting together to keep the, keep the net carbs down. And, um, boy, it, it’s been, um, you know, bastardized and misappropriated when you’re talking about only the macros. And I think, you know, you’re educating us that there’s a difference between this carbon and that carb. And I guess you’d have to say the same, uh, for fat because we’ve demonized fat for decades. And now we know that natural nutritious fats are the centerpiece of human evolution among other things, human health, cellular health, um, the cell membrane is made from saturated fat. Uh, and then we have the seed oils, which have been the greatest disaster in modern times. Dr. Cate Shanahan calls seed oils a massive human experiment to see how many people will die from switching over to this high profit, uh, nutrient deficient DNA damaging diet.
Its a great recap. And Dr. Cate is a big part of the film and she’s amazing. Good, good friend of mine. But that’s, yeah, that’s what we’re trying to spell out in the film is what the real enemies are. I guess I’ll switch to that. What, So I, like I said, even the low carb keto world, which I still am in and was in for a long time, they still, I still think they get the seed oil message, I think, but they still think it’s just like, if it’s a carb, it’s evil, you know? And I’m just saying there’s such a big difference. And, um, I think the level of processing is a huge thing. I mean, you just spelled it out with a fake keto bread and, but I, you can look at it scientifically why that’s a case and actually did an interview with this guy, Gabe Adorjan, I don’t think he’s very well known, but he is another scientist, you know, this kind of engineer guy that came from the, from, from nowhere and just looked and did so much research and put together great presentations about how your body interacts with the more process, the level of processing matters.
The more you process down a carbohydrate, the worse it is for your hormone system and the results of your, your body. Everyone knows about the insulin release and the blood sugar and all that, but like he gets down into the G i P and G GLP one and you know, this p p uh, I forget all these acronyms, uh, ccc, cy and p pk. And you know, the whole thing is how these in incretins, how your, your gut responds when they’re so highly refined that it’s a completely different reaction. And then that’s why, you know, fruit can be so different because it is still in its whole food matrix and it is slower digesting and it has, you know, other nutrients that your body wants and needs. So, so the level of processing is a huge story when you’re talking about the difference in carbs, right?
And the carbs that I listed, fruit, honey, potatoes, stuff like that, these are not process, these are whole foods from nature. Even if honey does seem like it’s kind of processed down and, you know, some people could still have a bit of a problem with honey, cuz it does hit your system pretty fast, but it still has other nutrients in it and it’s still not as like concentrated, uh, of a carb. Uh, you know, you can go on and on about, about honey that’s its own little debate. But anyway, there’s just such a, like level processing matters I think more than anything.
Yeah, I, I talked to Dr. Robert Lustig, a highly respected researcher, leader in the anti-sugar Crusade on the globe, author of Metabolical and many other great books. And he argues very persuasively with a lot of research behind him that if you simply eliminate processed foods and eat only wholesome, nutritious, natural foods, you can’t get fat, you cannot get type two, you cannot get disease state if you don’t eat processed foods. And that’s a pretty big assertion if you think about it. Uh, but if we can all raise our hand and, and, uh, acknowledge like, have you ever stuffed your face on too many steaks or, or too many omelets or too many slices of salmon. And it’s really difficult to, to binge on those kind of foods because they have that natural satiety and that deep nutritional value that gives you the satisfaction. And you, you just can’t, you, you just refuse to eat too many of the nutritious foods.
But it’s so easy in the comparative example of, you know, going for one scoop of Ben and Jerry’s and then all of a sudden the whole pints gone and then you’re reaching for something else couple hours later. What you were talking about before we hear this term, endotoxin is now being, uh, bantered about more frequently, which is a consequence of consuming processed foods such as processed sugar versus the, the natural sugar that you see in the fruit. And the endotoxin. That’s, that means internally manufactured toxin released into the bloodstream as a reaction to consuming shitty food. And this inhibits your ability to burn energy. And so therefore you have a tendency to become dependent on these outside sources of crappy energy because your body’s not good at burning fat or processing calories.
That’s, that’s a great overview. Then getting down to like the lipo polysaccharides and like gut in, you know, on these that’s the are and they can, leaky gut and all this stuff and all the, the processed foods can even, you know, make your gut leaky in the first place and then just makes it worse. So yeah, I think the level processing is huge. Satiety is huge. I’m obsessed with this satiety thing. I’m glad you brought that up because it’s really tied into level processing and there, have you ever interviewed Dr. Ted Naiman?
Oh yeah. I love his PE diet and yes, just so simple and, and the insights about exercise, uh, where he’s just advocating that you can do one single set to maximum exhaustion and that could represent a great day’s workout or do one, you know, four hours later. So he’ll do one set of pull-ups and that’ll be his morning and then he’ll sprint up a hill in Seattle and then head back. And it’s a really thoughtful way to, uh, become not just fit, but, but really fit. But I think his great contribution that you’re probably mentioning is that protein to energy ratio in the diet. Maybe you can discuss Yeah. More about where that fits.
Absolutely. And, and I think Dr. Ted is my biggest influence along with Mark Sisson, both really ripped, very healthy guys, very smart, and I love Ted and his workouts. I do similar workouts too. The one I do drop sets to failure. So I go say I, I do weight a dip. So say I’ll do a dip with a 45 pound weight hanging from it. Oh, sorry, gotta put my phone on silent
It. Uh, that’s a lot of weight, man to do a dip.
Oh yeah. So I’ll do, I’ll do dips with a 45 pound weight hanging, then I’ll take it off, do a 25 pound demo, so immediately, so I’ll go to failure, then drop the weight, do the 25 pound weight hanging, drop that, and then do it with no weight hanging. So it’s, it’s, I I’m trying to one up Ted on his, his thing and just say, I’ll do these drop sets to failure to really even maximize my effort even more in where I could do that one set and be done. And so then I’ll just do different exercises, like compound exercises in that style and sprint. So yeah, absolutely. We got a little sidetracked with the exercise stuff. I, he’s, he’s a genius. It’s all about efficiency. He was a mechanical engineer as well before he went to med school. He got a mechanical engineering degree, good power mine.
He’s great. So, but his protein to energy stuff is amazing. And that ties into the nutrients to energy. So we actually take it a step further in the film and go nutrients to energy because I think he’s limiting himself with just protein, right? Protein. He’s advocating for animal source protein and that comes with a whole bunch of nutrients. But we’re saying protein is a nutrient, why don’t we just call it nutrients to energy? And this is all your vitamins and minerals and amino acids, fatty acids, everything. These are your nutrients. And then an energy, Yes, those are fat or carbs generally. And so I, I think that’s genius. And how to look at a diet and how to, to look at food is like your body wants nutrients and it needs energy to get through the day, but it, it doesn’t need more than that energy to get through the day.
. And most people eat way more so their nutrient side of the equation is low. Their energy side is, is high, right? And this is the same that you know, Dr. Ted, you and I, we all agree. Like, let’s just shift that ratio. Let’s move up the protein and nutrient side. And like, it’s basically just a seesaw. People just need to seesaw their diet up the nutrients and energy, I mean, sorry, up the nutrients, protein, all the vitamins, minerals, and then just lower the energy a bit. And you have amazing results. It’s, it’s, he’s just like, uh, it works every time. He sees tons and tons of, he sees like hundreds of patients a week and just gives them this type of advice.
Yeah. And talk about credibility. Like if you’re walking around as a fit specimen, I’m gonna give you instant credibility. It’s like a seeking guidance for as an athlete and how I can train better. Um, I’m gonna look to someone who is a past champion or is, you know, excelling as not necessarily that they’re, you know, uh, the ultimate expert in the best resource, but it’s an entry point that, you know, speaks volumes. And, um, uh, if any listeners were, um, a little, um, falling back here on this idea, um, just to slow down, like when you say nutrient to energy or protein to energy and the seesaw we’re talking about, the energy your food provides is calories, right? So you can have four 7/11 Slurpees and get, um, 2000 calories of energy with very little nutrition or known nutrition. And so that’s what that seesaw Brian’s talking about is to get maximum nutrient density in the calories that you’re consuming. And I think that’s the centerpiece of the book that Ted and William Schewfelt, uh, produced the protein to energy ratios saying like, if you’re, you know, going for high protein foods, um, that’s our basic biological drive. Our strongest biological drive is to get our protein needs met. Cause we’re gonna die without that. And so if we, you know, emphasize those, we’re gonna get maximum protein per, uh, total number of calories and that’s gonna kind of optimize caloric intake, body composition, things like that.
Yeah. And it brings in the protein leverage hypothesis. And you know, there’s been a lot of studies, the Raubenheimer/ Simpson studies and the, I read the book, Eat Like the Animals, which is a great book, except they get, they get protein wrong. It’s very interesting how they talk about the protein, they’re the ones that came up with the protein leverage hypothesis, but they think that they say protein’s great for kids, great for pregnant women, great for older people, but because of, you know, some weird reason it’s bad for people in their middle age. And actually a great guy, Marty Kendall from Australia did a breakdown of why they came to that conclusion is they, they left out a lot of data. So they did these rodent studies and they, the, the mice with the super low protein group, so many of them died and they threw them out and they threw out the data , and they’re like, Barney’s like, wait a second, they died because they were too low protein.
Like they were, they got emaciated and passed away because their protein was low. That’s part of the data set, right? And if you add those back into the data set, there is no problem with protein, right? These, you know, it changed the whole game. So people can try to find that post by Marty Kendall because it’s, it’s on the, the protein leverage and their study. But anyway, protein leverage for people who don’t know. It’s all organisms eat to a certain amount of protein. And if you dilute down their food with less protein, they will eat more of it to get that same amount of protein. And they’ve done these, they started this in crickets, I think it was. But you know, they, they, they start, they did these tests, worked in crickets, worked in rodents, worked all the way up the food chain to mammals there.
There’s not many tests, but I, they did some small tests with mammals that when, if you basically organisms eat to a certain amount of protein and if their food supply is bad. So basically that’s what’s happening in the US is we have a protein dilution, right? This is Dr. Ted’s stuff. It’s just so simple. It’s like, hey, we, we get all these processed foods, protein’s the most expensive, it’s a least shelf stable. We all the processed foods are low in protein, they’re high in energy. You the entire ratio of the diet shifts to more energy and not enough protein. And so people have to eat more of this bad food. It’s like, why, why can you eat a whole bag of chips and not be full and then you, or you want to eat, maybe you’re full temporarily and want to eat two, two hours later.
Same thing with the ice cream. Yeah. I mean, there’s not that much protein in ice cream. There’s just a whole bunch of energy. And so I think it’s, it’s a very elegant equation, but that’s why I wanted to add nutrients to that, because it’s not just about protein to energy. There’s so much more than just protein. Like, you know, Ted would, it’s just like, okay, so should we just eat egg whites and whey protein powder all day? And I say, No, we, we need all the nutrients that come along with it. And this actually is satiety. So why does this diet work and why does it make sense? Is if your body gets all the nutrients it needs, It is satiated. I think satiety. And I think why people are hungry and, and losing weight or being overweight is a battle of hunger. Really.
That’s what it is, right? It’s just why did, why did someone eat too much energy? Why did someone eat too many calories, for example? Well, they didn’t want to, you know what I mean? No one wants to be fat and sick, yet they are. So why did that happen? You know, these calorie balance, people always say, Oh, well eat less, move more. You know, it’s just, it’s so stupid because no one wants to eat too much. But they did. The question is, why? So why did they eat too much? It’s because they weren’t satiated. So over time, they ate beyond what they needed and they, they stored that as fat. And that’s because they were eating the foods that they ate didn’t have the correct nutrient to energy ratio, or they didn’t have nutrient density, they didn’t have enough protein. They were basically diluted out with proc, usually processed fats and processed carbs.
And so it’s inevitable, like people can try to do calorie restricted diets and just restrict the same low nutrient density foods, the same processed foods with a low nutrient energy score. But it’s not gonna work long term because you can’t have endless willpower. You like, you know what I mean? These foods are inherently not satiating and not, and, and again, satiating means nutrients. It’s like if your body lacks the proteins, vitamins, minerals, you know, fatty acids that it needs, it will keep eating . So it’s like, it’s like this impossible equation to ask someone to go against their human nature to get those proteins, nutrients, vitamins, minerals, forever. And so that’s why crash diets can work. Any diet can work. You can eat all potatoes, right? The whole like, uh, what’s it guys, there’s the Twinkee diet guy lost 20 pounds. There’s the Twinkee diet potato, right?
Angela ate potatoes and you know, it’s like, okay, great. He lost a lot of weight. That doesn’t mean anything. It, Yeah, you need the, like for long term health, you need the nutrient to energy equation. So that, again, I’ll do one more recap. This ties into the satiety very well. It also ties into a level of processing very well. Mm. It’s basically the, the higher level processing, the lower the nutrient to energy ratio is the lower nutrient density. It is. So it really all leads to whole foods and animal foods. And if you and animal foods have the more bioavailable and complete sorts of protein. So if you’re eating a whole foods diet with enough animal protein, you’re fine. And you can do all kinds of ratios. I like that. Robert Lustig, I mean, yeah, he’s great as well. He, he’s a little hardcore about some things, but, uh, he, he’s generally has it correct.
You cannot get fat on whole foods and it, if you have, you just need some sort of animal foods in your diet. Like I said, it’s, it’s whole foods with, with animal foods and you’re good. And this one more thing before I end this rent, cuz it ties in with Dr. Ted. Uh, I look up to him a lot. He’s taught me so much. But I got to, I got to get in his ear a couple years ago. I went up to Seattle for Thanksgiving and I pitched him this idea of satiety per calorie. So this, it, it was kind of like going off what he was talking about of, of the protein dinner energy ratio. And I was, I told him, So tidy per calorie is everything. Every food has a satiety per calorie. Okay. So I’ll give you the example. A steak, any whole food has a satiety level that matches a calorie level. If I eat a giant steak, it’s a thousand calories, it has a thousand satiety units, a point
I’m full. Yeah, yeah. I’m a full for the correct amount of time and I got all the nutrients. I needed a piece of salmon. Correct. Satiety to calories. Even a potato I think has a correct satiety to calories. Bec it’s a whole food. You know what I mean? Like Ted would agree, he, you know, he has a satiety like kind of calculator and a potato’s up there. Any whole food is up there cuz it’s in it whole food matrix. And the satiety matches the calories. That’s why you don’t need to worry about calories, because if they match, that’s all you care about. Okay. Then I’ll do the extreme opposite example. A soda. A soda has all the calories, almost no satiety. Right? You’re not gonna get full from a soda and it’s the most highly processed and least protein. Right. And then in the middle you could have, I don’t know, a bowl of pasta.
So it’s like, it has, you have all the calories, but you don’t have all the satiety. There’s like the whole joke. You eat Chinese food, which is basically just poss you know, it’s just a bunch of noodles and starch. You’re just not full. You’re not full for the correct amount of time. So it’s, if you have the correct satiety per calorie, you will basically go, like naturally arrive at your correct body composition and you should be be losing fat, excess fat. So basically it’s another way of saying just to eat whole foods. It’s another way of saying the more you process foods, the worse they get for you. I think this is like the root cause. This is my whole engineering side, the whole root of why people overeat, why people get sick is because they’re eating foods that don’t have the correct satiety to calorie, which is just processed foods. Whew.
Yeah. Or, or possibly engaging in a, um, a deliberate restrictive diet where you’re restricting a certain macro, for example. So maybe over the long term you’re adhering to this ketogenic diet. You’re eating some nice nutritious, high satiety, wholesome foods. You’re doing a good job with it. Right? But, uh, perhaps with only 50 grams of carbohydrates, uh, intake per day, um, you’re gonna get into a similar satiety equation or, uh, which we didn’t really discuss as, as part of this is the compensatory, uh, behaviors that the body engages in. If you insist on restricting calories or minimizing, uh, your nutritional requirements, you’re gonna turn down a whole bunch of flames, uh, such as your reproductive health, your immune function, your repair, and um, also your performance when you’re doing, uh, exercising or trying to avoid brain fog in the afternoon. So, you know, we have this, this incredible obligation to nourish ourselves. It it on on a whole bunch of levels or, uh, we will survive, but we’re not gonna thrive. And that’s the part this might open up the discussion to, you know, some of the evolution in thought that we, we touched upon earlier where we’ve been, um, you know, compelled to challenge some of the foundational premises of ancestral health. And, um, you know, look at, for example, Jay Feldman’s work with the energy balance equation, energy balance podcast.
Absolutely. Yeah. That’s a good transition because it’s not all just satiety per calorie. I think that’s a lot of it. Right? That’s one factor. You talk about gut health, which is another factor, but that’s again, ties into the more processed foods, the worse it probably is for your gut. And then there’s a, there’s this whole other world of your body’s response or just getting the correct nutrients. I think part of the correct nutrients might be that glucose, which is what this pro metabolic crowd Jay Feldman in, is in, is about, is that you shouldn’t be restricting this. That that is actually a good nutrients. It actually is like glucose actually is a clean burning source of fuel if you eat the right form of it. And I’ve seen that too with people. I think I saw it myself a little bit a couple years ago is when I started getting into this stuff of like, Oh, I think I am down-regulating my metabolic function if by going too low carb for too long.
And like some people may know, they say they’re cold, cold hands and feet, or they’re just cold in general. Maybe they have low thyroid, maybe women are losing their period. Maybe you’re waking up in the middle of the night. All these little things, low body temperature. I started measuring my body temperature. I got this little thing on Amazon for like $6 and I was like, Hey, my body temperature’s like 97, you know, it should be 98.6. And then as I started introducing more whole food carbohydrates, it started raising, it was kind of a dose dependent linear thing where I would eat more 97.5, you know, 97.8. And I started sleeping a little better and I just kind of didn’t have all these little symptoms. So I think this is actually ancestrally consistent too, which we could talk about the history cuz I just interviewed Jay Feldman, actually I didn’t even release it yet, but I, you know, asked him about that.
And, and there’s more people that, there’s way more people than Jay Feldman in this crowd. This is, you know, there’s, um, I think a lot of this is based on Ray Pete’s work actually. Mm-hmm. , they credit Ray Pete, who has interesting ideas. He’s very against pofu. Like he, he figured out this PO of stuff many, many years ago, decades ago about how bad the seed oils and the pos were. And so, uh, there’s other people that have kind of taken on this pro metabolic world that that’s really interesting and people should check out. But the idea is that yeah, you are down-regulating your system if you’re not getting the, the glucose, really, it’s that your body, this is challenging sort of these keto views is that you’re like, Oh, you can make your body can make its own glucose from glucose neogenesis. And then you’re kinda like, Oh, wait, wait. But then why do you wanna make your body do that? Yeah.
That’s the part that’s a big, it’s a big slap in the face to me to acknowledge. And this was Jay’s one liner that really stopped me in my tracks. He said, um, you know, fasting, keto, low carb time restricted feeding, all this cool stuff, um, they turn on stress hormones. And that’s the mechanism by which they deliver the, uh, the, the vaunted benefits. Um, but do we want to engage in more stressful behaviors when we already have, uh, an incredibly stressful, hectic modern life layered upon that, our athletic goals are fitness goals and then we’re gonna go and fast as well. And to me, it was a wake-up call because I’m trying to minimize my stress factors and redirect almost all the energy I have, let’s say to my peak performance goals as an athlete. I want to perform, recover. I don’t wanna be optimally fueled. And so if you’re kind of, um, throwing in, um, and, and, you know, they, they bring into like cold exposure, sauna, sprinting, fasting, ketogenic diet. Mm-hmm. , all of a sudden we’re weighing down one side of the scales of justice with a bunch of stress. Speaking of your engineering reasonability here mm-hmm. , um, hey, what about the other part where the guy gets to eat after doing the sprint workout?
It’s so true. It’s so true. We have enough modern stressors in this world. And I think yes, he was kind of saying that’s why people could feel good because these stress hormones feel good in a way. Right? It’s like this cortisol release.
Yeah. Oh my gosh, Good point. Yeah. I’m, I’m alert and energized all morning long, uh, because I’m fasting and definitely true and legit. But what’s the mechanism and is that optimal to be kicking on, cortisol when you’re also gonna have some cortisol spilling out when you get into an argument with your significant other later that afternoon, and then you’re dealing with the kids and then you’re having more stress and then you’re gonna go, uh, out for a five mile run to blow off some steam because you’ve had such a stressful day.
It’s right. And, and I think there, I’m trying to just get the, like, how can I benefit from all sides of this? What is the, how can I reconcile this kind of new promo, pro metabolic view of things with the kind of ketogenic view of things with the ancestral lens? And I think there is a balance there somewhere where I still don’t think, it’s not like I’m gonna stop, you know, sprinting or doing, you know, I, I’m not gonna eat like eight times a day now, but it’s like, how do I, how do I, uh, reconcile all this and make, and keep it consistent with sort of a world view? Right? I like these kind of theories of everything, you know, like the unifying theory of, of nutrition actually, I, I was trying to find that. Like, does it all make sense? And it generally does still make sense with these new ideas where you don’t want to run on stress hormones.
You don’t want to, you know, restrict carbs so much. So I, but so like I’m saying, is it, I think it does all fit and we could, so the ancestral view of this would be we did it, it depended on where humans or early humans were in the world and what they had access to. And there were a lot of people around the equator that could have access to tubers and fruits a lot of the year. Mm-hmm. , or there are some that didn’t, but I mean, it’s still cyclical, you know, even that part, Right. Eating seasonally should be important. It’s not like people were just keto for like 30 years in a row. It’s maybe they’re keto for nine months in a row. Yeah. And then they, they got some berries and they, or they found a bunch of fruit or it, it’s hard to know what what went on back then.
But I mean, I did go to Africa last year and I was with the Hadza and the Maasai. And the Hadza, I mean, if they would eat berries, right? They find berries, they eat berries, they find honey, they eat honey. The women are back digging up tubers. Although there actually isn’t much carbohydrate in those tubews. I ate some of ’em and it was just pure fiber and they just spit out fiber. It was just, it was like, I think you, you probably got a few calories of glucose out of it, and then they just spit out the fiber. But still, you know, there, there was ways to, to get these forms of carbs or glucose that, you know, they’re around. You gotta dig them up. You gotta find them. Who knows? We, we don’t really know what went on back then, but I think it, it kind of still makes sense to me that they were whole foods.
I mean, one thing we know for sure is they were whole foods, right? They didn’t have the Costcos and the Seven Elevens and anything back then. So whatever they’re eating, it was some version of the Whole Foods. So that’s why it’s, so I’m trying. So we, we start off by asking my bias, my bias is actually almost nothing anymore besides just what was available to humans. That there, there’s a framework, I call it the Sapien framework or Sapian diet or whatever. But all it means is what did humans have available for basically a couple million years of history? And that’s what we should still try to eat today. So I think what wasn’t available was the three ingredients that I mentioned that Mark Sisson, you know, wrote, wrote in his book 15 years ago. It’s the added sugar, the refined grains, and the seed oil.
These three ingredients, same stuff with the Western Price. I’m, I’ve love the Western Price stuff. He found this out a hundred years ago, going around the world. The, they ate natural foods, all the populations he visited, they were eating tons of animal foods, fat organ meats, eggs, you know, fish, all that stuff. And they were all healthy. As soon as they got in those three ingredients, their health tanked. So my worldview that kind of fits in the pro metabolic worlds, and the keto world, is that it’s just these three highly refined foods that are the problem. And these are, you know, they came into the diet and they cause mayhem everywhere. And they’re still modern. They native living people that eat, we can study and they can eat high starch diets like the Toku allows or the, uh, ketons. Like there’s certain groups that don’t really have access to much animal foods.
They’re eating a whole bunch. They’re just, you know, maybe 80% of the diet is sweet potatoes or taro root or something like that. They’re fine. They, they have, they’re not, they don’t have the chronic diseases. They’re not overweight, but they’re eating all whole foods, right? So I think there is this, it, it’s, it’s kind of like, I wish I had a graphic here to show, like, there’s this spectrum. It’s like I, I made this graphic and in the middle is all the protein and nutrients and meat and eggs and like just solid nutrient foods, right? This the, and then on the sides you can have the more fatty foods on the right and then maybe the more carby foods on the left, but they’re all whole foods and you can kinda just swing back and forth into this. And you can be healthy on any version of this, if that makes sense.
Right? You can go, I’m getting my base of nutrients and protein and vitamins and minerals from, you know, animal foods that we’ve always eaten and maybe like low sugar whole foods. And then I can fill in the rest of my diet, which is basically the energy portion of my diet with more fats or more carbs. But it’s all good because they’re whole foods and your body’s says great. So I think that kinda is my summing it up, is that the unifying theory does make sense if it’s based on whole foods, ancestral foods that we’ve had available. And you can swing to either side of the spectrum. So
Very nice. Yeah. And I think, um, you know, we said this years ago in the Primal Blueprint that the idea here is to adapt the ancestral example into the realities of hectic, high stress, modern life. And I’ve taken some backpedaling on that very concept, uh, when we’re, we’re hearkening, uh, our, our favorite example of ancestral living. And, you know, maybe our ancestors did live in strict ketosis for years on end because they were struggling and suffering. And so we have this ancestral information, but how do we optimize today might require another layer of a strategy or thinking. In other words, we don’t need to model, um, you know, the, the, the harsh, uh, survival of the fittest circumstances today. And nor should we. I was thinking of Dr. Perlmutter’s, uh, strong assertion that we shouldn’t consume any fruit in the winter because it’s against our ancestral example when fruit didn’t exist in the winter.
So you can only have your berries in the summer. And I’m like, Hey, good point, good point. I’ve adhere to that for many years. I’ve had a sticky note as one of my favorite quotes about that, cuz it’s simple and you can spout that you know, in the elevator or on the air nick to the person in the airplane seat. But then I’m thinking like, well wait a second. What winter man? Cuz last winter I went to Hawaii twice on a jet airplane and did some fun exercising and hiking in the hot weather and, and had some fruit after. And then, uh, furthermore, uh, I have lights on in my home until 10:00 PM all winter long. And I’m also going over to the gym, working out under fluorescent lights and lifting heavy things and sprinting and so forth. So, um, we can easily kind of get sidetracked with this obsession, uh, with certain, you know, things that turn into a fad like keto.
And, uh, we have to see this as, you know, a wonderful, uh, tool to regain metabolic health when we’ve screwed it over with consuming those, those big three toxic modern foods. Um, but is it optimal for someone who has health and fitness goals and, and a stressful day? Um, then we have to, you know, think, think, uh, more reflectively and say, you know, what can I do? And I like, as you were talking about a long time ago with the, the placement of the carbs, uh, and, and Liver King, uh, our buddy Liver King down there in Texas as well, saying, Earn your carbs. And it’s kind of a cool theme where, you know, you sit down to, uh, a lavish meal that includes the sweet potatoes and your other favorite choices because you did, uh, you know, do some five events in your pentathlon or whatever. I hope you had a lavish meal at the end of that competition. Oh,
I did. And, and yeah. No, that’s a great one. I I, I love that in your carb stuff. I’ve been trying to say that for years because I, I try to do a lot of memes on my Food Lies Instagram. But I, I did a meme of the person who’s like a office worker in Ohio and they’re eating the lavish meal with all the sweet potatoes, , you know, I’m like, this person did not earn their carbs. You know what I mean? Like, this is, this is a great point. It’s like, peop I did another one. It’s like people are out there eating like they just Michael Phelps when they’re sitting in an office all day, you know what I mean? It doesn’t make any sense. And the, that’s all big problem. What I have with the food pyramid too. It’s like that’s, I mean, maybe some athletes, like the UCLA athletes sound like they ate the food pyramid diet.
Mm-hmm. . Cause they probably have nutritionist telling ’em to eat the food during day. Mm-hmm. . But they were lean because they went out and earned them. I mean, they weren’t eating the right sources of carbs, I think. But we gave the, the entire nation an, uh, diet that was for UCLA multi-event athletes, , and it’s a bunch of people sitting in a office. So yes, the modern, the modern world is a crazy place and we still can live in it. We don’t have to do like wear a loin cloth and live in a cave. You know, it’s just like, we just have to be thoughtful about how do we, how do we do it? How, how do we like bring in the ancestral principles with modern life? And I think it’s, it’s actually, it’s not that hard. And I think you and Mark and so many other people have been talking about this stuff for years, right? It’s like, how do we just like do it in our modern life? And you could just do a little hacks like yeah, get the blue light blocker on your computer or, you know, don’t have the fluorescent lights, you know, like get some, some like softer red lights or something. So yeah, I don’t think it’s impossible to do in the modern world.
Tell me quickly about your concept of the, the, the score of plus one zero or minus one when you’re making food choices. I love that It’s so simple.
Yeah. With the foods, this is how I kind of shook up my head of thinking like, I, I think the carnivores are very interesting, right? I’ve known Saladino and Shawn Baker and these guys for many, many years. They are bringing light to the problems with plant foods and how, where all the nutrient density might be in the animal foods. So I had this idea like, what if foods were just in these three categories that all animal foods were a plus one, all processed foods were a negative one, and plant foods were just kind of neutral. And, and I, I think plant foods are kind of neutral. I, I hate, I hate to say it to people like kale isn’t gonna like save your life, you know, like kale has a lot of oxalates, has a lot of, like, you’re not actually getting a lot of those nutrients from it.
I don’t eat kale anymore. I ate spinach and kale like every day. I, I kind of went overboard with that and I think I had problems with oxalates, but that’s a side story. So the real story is, I think plant foods are pretty neutral. They’re not gonna do you harm maybe if you eat ’em seasonally, but they’re not gonna, they’re not super foods. And that if you think of diet in that like, plus neutral and negative, it kind of makes sense. Like you can look at anyone’s diet and it’s like someone could eat a pescatarian diet and be really healthy. And I said, Yeah, well you’re, you’re getting the positive foods from your fish. You’re eating a whole bunch of neutral plant foods that are just giving you energy and
You’re not eating the minus ones.
You’re not in the brightest ones. So it’s like, it’s perfectly fine. And so, I don’t know, it’s just interesting cuz I, I think of plants as survival foods and I think that’s kind of, you know, more common in the ancestral health world, right? Where we’re like, we wanted to hunt meat, and this is exactly what I saw with the Hazdas. They were out there every day hunting meat. The men were not out there chewing on those potatoes things with all the fiber in them. They were getting meat. So fallback foods, if we didn’t get a successful hunt, which I think we were very successful actually throughout history. And, um, if we didn’t somehow, or yeah, there’s many other times where the weather or the conditions could have been bad and we, we could have gotten plant foods and survived. And I think they are just like this fallback plan and it’s amazing how humans developed and how nature works where we have this fallback plan, but they are just kind of neutral. They’re just there to like, keep us alive in time of famine.
That’s gonna hurt a lot of people’s feelings. Brian.
I know. Well Mark, you know, he’s, he’s he’s off the bigass salad train it sounded like lately. I don’t know. Last time I was with him
Yeah, I mean, uh, we, we got ahold of Saladino in in 2019 and um, he had some epic podcasts with, with Mark, where he was just, you know, know wearing him down and, you know, pinning him into a corner and saying, So why are you eating that salad? What are you doing it for? And we’re like, uh, Mark’s like, uh, the chewy texture, uh, you know, Yeah. Is a nice, nice, nice feel in the mouth. Um, but yeah, it does cause some rethinking and, and recalibration. Um, but just to, to walk away with this, this scoreboard of going for the plus ones understanding that, um, you know, the important message that I think Dr. Saladino communicates uh, really nicely is that these things are not only, um, not essential, but they could be harming you if you’re sensitive. And I don’t consider myself one of those people that was having, you know, dramatic problems from having a variety of plants in my diet, but I kind of turned on a dime back in 2019 going, Geez, this, this, this guy seems right. And, um, we have human evolution as a, uh, something to draw upon. And the reason we got big brains and, and rose to the top of the food chain, uh, was not from the kale smoothies nor the salads.
It’s, it’s amazing when you, when you kind of shake up your head and think about it. And I’m glad that Paul moved to the fruit too. Cause I knew him since 2018. I think actually we had a great little panel with Mark Sissonand Paul Salaldino, Shawn Baker and I in 2019, and we did a debate and we kind of talked about all these things and we were in the studio in LA it was when everyone was in town. And that’s when Mark was saying, he’s like, kind of like, Ah, I’m not into the bigass salad anymore. You know, he was kind of like, All right. But, uh, but yeah, I’m glad Celine’s getting into this fruit too because it is kind of along the lines of that pro metabolic approach of like the, this, this fruit as the least antinutrients. It’s kind of like the safest food.
And it’s interesting too to think about ancestry. These are the most prized foods. It’s meat and fruit. These are the most prized foods and this is what humans sought after. And it kind of makes sense. And this is, you know, they, the plant doesn’t protect the fruit with antinutrients, right? They, they’re pretty safe. And so now everything kind of just makes sense now, right? You, when you this, it’s kind of mean and fruit. And I know a lot of people, especially in Austin, they’re doing well on this kind of new, new idea of meat and fruit makes sense. Ancestrally,
It’s pretty wait. Every, everyone in Austin’s doing well or otherwise they’d get kicked out of town or not being allowed to move there. I mean, it’s the, the epicenter of the cool universe. So, so, so amazing. And you told me about all these cool gatherings and that’s probably one of the best things about living there, where there’s a tremendous awakening in health and so many people with passion and interest. And you go jogging on the town lake trail and, you know, where I’ve lived, um, it would be very rare to see another, um, person out exercising. And so when I, when I was out on the Town Lake Trail going for, you know, a quick jog one morning I’m saying hi to all these people that are passing, then I finally had to stop because there’s 712 people that I’m gonna pass on a five mile run. And finally I just put my head down and carry on. Cuz my, my smile’s getting stretched too far. But anyway, plugs, props for Austin, love that place.
It’s amazing. And people get it. People are awake and they are healthy and they know that meat is healthy and they’re like entrepreneurial. It’s a, it’s a magical place.
So you’re deep into this. You’ve built some strong convictions, I’m sure for over the decade stretch here. We’ve talked about many of ’em. Um, now what do you do when you come across, let’s say, um, an opponent or a detractor that’s, uh, you know, challenging your, your life’s work? How do you process this and, um, are we, are we gonna say that, um, these people are just stuck in the past, uh, referencing flaw science, things like that? Or, um, you know, how do, how do we reconcile, especially when we’re talking about people who have a lot of prominence, a lot of respect they’re citing a lot of research and they’re dead wrong to, to, um mm-hmm. to, to, to give the, uh, the secret sound bite.
It’s not easy. . I’ve done, um, I’ve actually done a public debate. I went, I went to food industry conference a couple years ago and it was a plant-based, Well, everything in the food industry now is very plant-based, fake meat. All the fake meat companies there, all the big companies you’ve ever heard of were there The Beyond Foods and all that stuff. And they had me, I was the only one supporting meat. And uh, they gave me 15 minutes and I did a presentation. It’s actually on YouTube. It’s why we should be eating more meat, not less a story in 15 minutes. It’s one of my most popular videos on the Food Lies channel. But, uh, then we had a little debate and it, it was interesting. So this lady was like a lifelong vegetarian and she didn’t look good. That’s what a lot of people noticed.
Is she, she thought, okay, I was 37, she thought I was 27. Oh, I was 28. I was 38. She thought, yeah, 20, no, 27. I, she was in like mid forties. I thought she was in her mid fifties. So that’s just, it’s just interesting. But she, by the end of it, she actually kind of did come around to what I was talking about because I I was making sense. And it, it’s really hard to use logic with the other side. And I think part of the problem too is what you’re saying is you’re go that they have all these studies too. That’s kind of the problem with science in general. It’s like there’s a study for everything these days and it doesn’t mean that it’s true. And like who’s finding it how they did it, You know, how can we even do a study on a unhealthy population?
How many mice died? How many people died that they didn’t count in the study? Yeah,
Exactly. And then how do we do studies on, if everyone’s eating seed oils and everyone’s eating processed foods, how do we even find out anything if we’re looking at that population? There’s so few people that are like you and I and the Austin cool people that are just aggressively avoiding seed oils and processed foods. There’s like a handful of people in the nation, and we’re not in these studies. I’ve never heard of anyone who’s ever been part of any study other than Zach Bitter actually, who was part of the faster study with Jeff oic. But anyway, it’s super hard to do this science stuff. It’s super hard to go against the mainstream. The problem is the mainstream has all the funding and all the momentum and all the textbooks and all the kind of establishment view of things. I guess, my main answer is that’s why I have to make a film.
I have to make a six-part series to put all this info into one place for people and then maybe they can start shaking it up and like realizing, wait a second, maybe this whole food pyramid or maybe the government, you know, they have different motives other than my personal health. And, I came to some realizations along the way that just the, the law of human nature is basically, there always is sort of like these upper classes that are just putting things down to the, the peons basically, you know, there’s, there’s the pharaohs and there’s the slaves and it’s, it’s always kind of been like that. And the views from the top are usually good for them or good for just controlling the masses or just even, even like a more innocent term is just like keeping people in line, you know? Mm-hmm.
, you could think of the, the, the sort of malevolent way you would think about it was the controlling and, you know, gaining from this. And, but, or you could just think of it as well, they’re just trying to keep a bunch of people in line. It’s not good for the individual. It’s good for them to keep people in line. And that’s why you have to make these general recommendations that, and they just try to throw ’em out there. And then that’s why the, there’s this establishment just call it establishment of like the medical establishment of pharma. Like whatever government, they have this establishment narrative that it has to keep going along and you can’t disrupt it. If you go against it, you won’t get funded. Right. Your lab won’t get funded or you, you get tenures you won’t get Yeah. And it, but it all makes sense to me.
Now. I actually spoke at Keto Con and my presentation was called the exposing the trillion dollar agenda against red meat. And it’s more than just money, but I fo but like, cuz people, you know, you talk about the, the car ride, the elevator ride, the Uber ride, the airplane ride talk. I talked to so many people about this cause I’ve been making this film for so long, and they’re always like, But, but, but you know, the news said this or like the, the World Health Organization said meat causes cancer. And like the AHA you know, the American Heart Association says this, and you have to go back and look at a hundred year history or even 12,000 years history of agriculture and accumulation of wealth and like how the, the power dynamics work to, to understand why this exists. Why, why is everyone in line with the same message, eat less meat, eat less fat. Right. I know I’ve just opened a whole new can of worms, but I think you, and most people listening kind of understand this generally, right? Because in the health field we’ve kind of gotten sort of red pilled on this idea that the big institutions don’t have our best interest in mind. And you need to, to, for your own health need to kind of go against that.
That is a pretty nice summary right there, man. , that’s teeing us up for a certain viewing of the food life. Now tell me the difference between you, you, you’re making a feature length film and a six part series, or how did those fold together?
Oh no, it was a feature legs film. Then we couldn’t pack everything in.
Okay. So it’s a six part series that’s going, We’re gonna get it on Netflix if we Yes. If we have any listeners in the executive level at Netflix, please.
Oh yeah. I’m worried that Netflix isn’t gonna take it because, you know, Robb Wolf and Diana Rogers film, Sacred Cow didn’t make it to Netflix. Who knows why. They just said we couldn’t make a deal. So it’s either they didn’t want this pro meat film or maybe they lowballed them. I don’t know, maybe they just didn’t like it. I have no idea. The, what I can do is make the highest quality, best film mm-hmm. that they will, there’s no reason they can turn it down. And also it’s not just like this pro-meat film that’s in your face, like sacred cows a little bit. Like this is a pro-meat film. Yeah. We’re kind of just like, Hey, what’s going on with food? And to kind of sum up everything we’ve talked about today, the, the, the main thing is let’s focus on the right enemy. The mainstream, the establishment has been putting red meat as the enemy and fat and animal foods in general as the enemy. And we’ve tried to fight that enemy and it hasn’t worked because it’s wrong. Of course, it’s not gonna work if you’re telling everyone to eat less red meat and everyone’s getting fatter and sicker, of course that’s gonna happen because it’s absurd. And so the real enemy is the three main ingredients that added sugar, refined grains and seed oils. And these makeup, 80% of food’s out there,
Lauren Cordain said 71% of the calories in the modern diet citing research come from entirely non -human non paleolithic foods. That’s a big number. And it’s, it’s, it’s hard to, it’s hard to believe, but um, we see it every day when we’re driving by the fast food and the most of the supermarket offerings. Mm-hmm. and all that.
That’s it. So it’s a simple message. It’s this is the real enemy, the highly processed foods and the other messages, animal foods are glorious and healthy and amazing. And, and we go through the whole story from evolution. We start with some amazing anthropologists and archeologists and people that actually do the studies. The people that actually dug up the bones and showed, you know, the old mastedon bones from, you know, a million years ago and the, well that would be 300,000 years ago, and the, you know, per custom barks on the bone marrow so we could see that the earliest humans were eating bone marrow. Like we have all of these researchers in the film. We tell the whole story going through to from the agriculture revolution to the bad science that was done. The whole Nina Teicholz stuff, you know, shout out to Nina Teicholz Gary Taubs, these two journalists that have exposed so much of this bad science that has been done.
We make it through talking about all this nutrient to energy stuff. The Ted Naiman is a big part of the film talking about this stuff. We got all the greats, you know, we got Ben Bickman and all, we then it, it, it moves in. And so we actually tell people to make sense of this stuff, right? Like what diets, like why we don’t need a specific diet, but why there’s a framework where humans can be healthy. And it’s basically what we talked about this, you know, this whole day and then it, it ends with the regenerative agriculture slash you know, environmental side of debunking those vegan arguments. You know, Joel Salton, you know, just all that great stuff about how we can raise animals in a healthy way for them, for humans and for the environment. So there it is. That’s a six-part series and it couldn’t have been done in one film, right? I just kind of listed out Yeah. Like so much stuff that would take someone years to research. Well basically what, you know, I have been doing for years is trying to put this all together. No one’s gonna go do all that and listen to 200 podcasts and do all read 200 books. So we’re, that’s why it’s a six part series now. More bite size people can jump on Netflix, watch, you know, 30 minute episodes and get all of this info in one place.
Well that’s great. It’ll set you up for of course, you know, part seven, part eight, part nine cuz there’s endless more to talk about.
Brian Sanders. People go order some NoseToTail. It’s nosetotail.org is the um mm-hmm the resource. And, um, listen to the Peak Human podcast. Where else should we, should we go to connect Food
Lies? Just search for Food Lies on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. I’m there. I’m making content every day and you’ll hear about all the updates.
Love it. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to everybody. To Brian Sanders, da da da da da da.
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