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It’s time for another show with Jay Feldman, host of the Energy Balance podcast. We had to keep recording because these insights are pretty mind-blowing, and pose a challenge to a lot of the conventional stories in the ancestral health scene, which can be a little disturbing/disruptive, but that’s what is so great about being open to new ideas and thinking critically. 

I think we do a great job on this show trying to reconcile some of these opposing views—one of the things we get into early on is this concept of hormesis, or hormetic stressors, which are intended to provide a net health benefit by putting the body under assorted forms of stress, like jumping into cold water and getting all these wonderful cognitive, immune, anti-inflammatory benefits. Again, it goes back to this concept that we are turning on stress hormones when we do all manner of metabolic stress—such as restrictive diets, pushing our bodies through workouts, etc. What Jay wants to advance is this compelling idea that we want to get the maximum benefits to the human organism with the minimum amount of stress, and for us to not forget the idea that stress is cumulative over our lifetime. We joke about how “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” but that isn’t necessarily true, because what doesn’t kill you, can wear you down over time, and that’s one of the reasons why the dudes running around with a six pack in their 20s and ordering pizza and ramen and doing whatever, ten years later, there is no more six pack, and it’s not because their diet changed dramatically, it’s because they got away with stuff and then the cumulative effects of stress hit.

The same concept applies to anyone walking around with a hip/knee/etc replacement—obviously what didn’t kill you caused you to have a replacement joint, so we want to get into this realm of optimizing our cellular health by looking at some of the questions with a critical mindset. This show covers some big picture concepts like hormetic stressors and then we have a little bit of time for some rapid-fire questions, where we get more clear about the idea that fat burns clearly and glucose burns more “dirty” and sort it all out with some scientific references there that might be difficult to keep up with at times, but we’ll come back and bring some takeaway insights that I think you’ll understand and greatly appreciate. I’m so pleased to have Jay Feldman back on the podcast, and I think you’ll love hearing this second show with him. 

TIMESTAMPS:

Hormetic stressors are intended to provide a net health benefit by putting the body under assorted forms of stress. [01:24]

The benefits of environmental stimuli are due to their specific effects rather than the stress they cause.  [05:28]

The concept that muscle soreness is anything but terrible, is something we need to awaken to. [10:22]

We have a compelling reason to reawaken our human fighting spirit because modern life is so comfortable and indulgent. [13:35]

You don’t need to train the brain or the anaerobic system to suffer. Stress is cumulative. [15:41]

Think that you have a stress bucket that gets filled during the day with personal time, work at the office, and working out. You need to look for balance. Minimize the stressful things that aren’t benefiting us. [20:16]

Brad is eating a big bowl of fruit in the morning and a protein smoothie instead of fasting.  How does Jay explain the change that Brad has undertaken? [21:48]

How are we losing less fat if we’re burning fat, or we’re targeting fat burning? [24:51]

How do the different fuel sources burn? [26:59]

When we are oxidizing, burning for fuel fat versus carbohydrates, we need to be producing more reactive oxygen species with fat in order to slow the rate of energy production. [31:44]

Much of the damage that people have comes from processed foods that they have been ingesting for years. [34:59]

Elevated glucose is a desperate attempt to you liver’s dumping more glucose into your bloodstream. [39:29]

The reason you feel bad when you eat carbs is because 1. We are not using the glucose well, 2. Experiencing the reduction of stress hormones, 3. The gut effects. [43:13]

Gut health is a huge factor because there are toxic compounds that are produced by the bacteria or microbes in our gut.  [48:43]

How does The Energy Balance theory compare with Pontzer’s theory that human daily calorie expenditure is the same whether we exercise or not? [49:55]

When Jay works with a client, he usually analyzes why the person experiences energy dips. There are many reasons why this happens. They learn how to correct those areas of their daily life.  [57:07]

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Brad (00:01:25):
Hey listeners, it’s time for another show with Jay Feldman, host of the Energy Balance podcast. Yeah, we had to keep going, man, because these insights are pretty mind blowing. The challenge to a lot of the conventional story in the ancestral health, a progressive health scene is a little bit disturbing, disruptive, but that’s, what’s so great about being open to new ideas and thinking critically and figuring out how the pieces will fit. And I think we do a pretty good job on this show to try to reconcile some of the opposing views. If you wanna look at it that way. One of the things we’re gonna get into early on is this concept of hormesis or hormetic stressors, which are, intended to provide a net health benefit by putting the body under assorted forms of stress, like jumping into the cold water and getting all these wonderful cognitive immune and anti-inflammatory benefits.

Brad (00:02:21):
But again, it goes to this concept that we are turning on stress hormones when we do all manner of metabolic stress, like restrictive diets and pushing our bodies through workouts and so forth. So he’s going to advance this compelling idea that we want to get the maximum benefits to the human organism, with the minimal amount of stress. And, offer us not to forget the idea that stress is cumulative over our lifetime. So when we banter about and say, Hey, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, right? Not necessarily true because what doesn’t kill you can wear you down over time. And that is a lot of the reason why the dudes running around with the six pack in their twenties and ordering up pizza and top ramen and doing whatever 10 years later, there’s no more six pack and it’s not because their diet changed dramatically it’s because they got away with stuff.

Brad (00:03:22):
And then the cumulative effects of stress, first things like leaky gut. I think it’s a really relevant insight. Same for anyone can nod their head. If you’re walking around with knee replacement, hip replacement, obviously what didn’t kill, you caused you to have a replacement joint. And so we wanna get into this realm of optimizing our cellular health and looking at some of the questions with a critical mindset. And so this show covers some big picture concepts like hormetic stressors. And then we have a little bit of opportunity for some rapid fire where we’re getting more clear about the idea that fat burns, cleanly and glucose burns more dirty and, uh, sorting it out with some scientific reference there that might be difficult to keep up with at times, but then we’re gonna come back and bring some takeaway insights that I think you’ll understand and greatly appreciate.

Brad (00:04:19):
So I’m so pleased to have Jay Feldman on for show number two, Energy Balance podcast host at Jay Feldman, wellness.com. Jay Feldman is back full of energy, full of Energy Balance. I so much appreciate that first show. You, you know, present an incredibly compelling premise about the, you know, the need to view this fascination with restrictive diets with, uh, a little more of a bigger picture perspective, particularly how fasting carb restriction, uh, fat restriction, whatever we’re doing is stressful. And we have these wonderful fight or fight mechanisms in the body that make us feel alert, energized, focused, and, and wonderful in so many ways for their short term use. And then when we’re kind of putting this into layering this into a high stress lifestyle, we are asking for big trouble. I didn’t mention this on the first show, but what I also like about you and your, your trusted sidekick, Mike Fave is you are also working with real humans in, in real life practical applications.

Brad (00:05:28):
So it’s not just theoretical and of course your own health journey. And you’d describe some of that in the first show about how you are in there, trying to get strong, trying to get your abs to show up eating less food and blowing that, blowing that story up, and then looking down the path. So I guess we can kind of pick up on some of those themes and, and see where it heads. But one thing that really, really struck me was your take on this vaunted health attribute or this health practice of hormesis and for the listener, that’s not aware of that term. It’s, I guess you describe it as brief stressors that are designed to deliver a net positive adaptive benefit. And that would include, jumping in the cold tub, which I’m such a big fan of. It would include a high intensity workout or a long duration workout. That’s putting your body into, you know, loading the muscles, loading the cardiovascular system. And then of course, the dietary restriction is also touted as this hormetic stressor designed to deliver a net positive adaptive benefit. But we need to maybe take a second look at some of that.

Jay (00:06:42):
Yeah. So, so you said it very well. And essentially the idea is that hormesis is this idea, this concept that small amounts of stress or small amounts of damage are beneficial because they allow they drive certain adaptations that improve our health. And again, kind of more colloquially, it’s the idea of no pain, no gain, or what doesn’t kill us, makes us stronger this idea that we wanna be kind of imposing these small amount of stress. And that’s where we get the that’s, how we get stronger. That’s how we get healthier. And as you were saying, this is cited as the reason why so many common health interventions are supposed to be beneficial. The biggest one being calorie restriction, but also fasting ketogenic diets, cold thermogenesis, certain supplements like Resveratrol, Wim Hof breathing, all these things that some people might not be as aware are even by the people you know, by the people who are in favor of them and who understand the physiology, all of these things are stressful. They all drive stress. And the argument is that those amounts of stress and the right amount create benefit. And I would argue that that’s not actually the case. There are some benefits to these things, but it’s not because of the stress they cause. And the kind of flip side as well is that we can get those same benefits without as much stress. And so that’s really kinda where, where I lean into as, as I prefer some alternate routes to get same benefits.

Brad (00:08:07):
This is just messing with my head, man. It’s a, it’s a major insight. And it makes a lot of sense. And I think the, you distinguish between, I’m gonna go into your quote now to make, make sure I characterize it well, um, distinguish between the beneficial effects of environmental stimuli versus the damage that it causes. The benefits of environmental stimuli are due to their specific effects rather than the stress they cause. And just make sure we explain that completely, what you’re talking about in terms of lifting a weight off your chest for 10 reps.

Jay (00:08:48):
Yeah. So this comes back to the work of Hans Selye and he was the first to describe that all interventions, all kind of factors that affect us biologically have two effects. They have stressor effects and specific effects, and the stressor effects is how much they use energy deplete us and how, and their propensity to cause stress. And then there’s specific effects are everything else. So when it comes to, let’s say a weightlifting session, we’re doing certain specific things. We’re creating tension on our musculature and we’re, you know, moving it through certain ranges of motion. We’re creating elongation, there’s blood flow, there’s lymph flow, there’s all sorts of things going on. And then also there is a usage of energy going on, and that is the stress, the stressor effect. And if we do it maybe more than a couple of reps, there’ll be some amount of stress caused, which is not necessarily a problem, but if we’re doing something maybe very long distance or a ton of reps or something like that, we’re gonna be favoring more stress and more of that stressor effect.

Jay (00:09:47):
And so we’re what we’re kind of going to be getting to is weighing the stressor effects versus the specific effects. And kind of my argument here is that the specific effects are where we would get the benefits from or negatives. It could be go both ways, but if there are benefits that are coming from the specific effects and not the stressor effects. And I think there’s a lot of conflation within the research and we’ll talk about where, why that’s coming or where that’s coming from, where the assumption is that the stress itself is actually responsible for the benefits. And this is something that I think is a huge disservice, a major problem, a major issue in the way that we’re looking at these at biology, really.

Brad (00:10:22):
Yeah. It’s like, oh, I, I got really sore after my first workout with my personal trainer. So I must be getting in shape and that soreness, which I’ve told listeners, I battle constant recurring muscle soreness. So something is a suboptimal with my training program. And it’s super frustrating cuz I have athletic goals. I want to go clear the bar on the high jump. And then I realize later that I made a mistake and overdid it because of the fact that I’ve sustained muscle damage. And so this concept of muscle soreness being anything, but, but terrible is something that we need to awaken to.

Jay (00:10:57):
Yeah. And, and of course there are, you know, just because we’re sore from an exercise or a workout doesn’t mean that it was overall negative. Like there were certainly stress or effects. There were also specific effects and the specific effects could outweigh the stress or vice versa. Right. So it would all depend on our individual circumstances and what the workout is and everything like that. But I think the major point that you’re getting at is we don’t wanna be looking at the markers of stress as the benefit. We don’t wanna look at, you know, the workouts that provide the most soreness and the most muscle damage don’t provide or don’t lead to the greatest strength and the greatest hypertrophy, the greatest muscle gain. Uh, but there’s always gonna be some overlap. We need some amount of stress in order to get the benefit, but that’s not, again, the benefit is not because of the stress it’s despite the stress.

Brad (00:11:41):
Yeah. And then you go on to say that if we can find a way to get the maximum benefits with the minimal amount of stress, then we are onto the merry path. And that’s when I said, okay, I’m going to pull the trigger now and get a big bowl of fruit and a giant smoothie every single morning after my, my wonderful morning workout session because that theoretically will minimize the stress impact or at least not piggyback, you know, going into a busy day without, caloric energy right away. And that’s, you know, been an awakening for me cuz I thought fasting was cool. And then when we make it to 12 noon, we can put another checkbox into the, into the positive column. And don’t you feel great alert, energized, and so productive because you, are able to fast. And again, it might be due to giving my gut a break from irritant foods. And that’s why I feel better in the morning than before when I had my raw green produce smoothie inspired by Dr. Rhonda Patrick telling me I should put this thing in a giant blender and drink it up every day.

Jay (00:12:59):
Yeah. And I know as we point out in the last episode, two, the stress hormones can feel good. You know the adding the black cup of coffee on top of the fast, you know, gets the, gets that energy flowing. But again, that’s something that we’re borrowing from the future that’s debt that we’re taking out that we do have to pay back and long term will lead to our bodies trying to conserve energy.

Brad (00:13:18):
We gotta pay back, man.

Jay (00:13:20):
Yeah, yeah. So not the best way to be getting our energy. And again, the good news is that we can have really great energy and focus and feel vibrant and be in a great mood and everything without needing to force those stress mechanisms. And I would say that’s a way better way to do it.

Brad (00:13:35):
I do wanna bring in proper context here and I’m, I’m thinking of my, my buddy Liver King, the Instagram sensation, Brian Johnson, my associate with MOFO, the organ supplement and he’s, you know, getting a lot of attention for his extreme ancestral practices and going in that cold tub for eight minutes instead of two and doing those extreme workouts. And of course, I’m calling him out that, uh, going on a five day quarterly, fast as well as training in the way that he does and, and going in the colder he does is perhaps unnecessary from the physiological perspective, but he is making an important point that we have a compelling reason to reawaken our human fighting spirit because modern life is so comfortable and indulgent. And we don’t put ourselves under sufficient for example, temperature variation because we’re in confined, uh, air conditioned environments at almost 24 7, but research shows that we spend 93% of the time indoors was a UK study, 86% indoors and then another 7% in a vehicle. And so if that’s the case I could see the rationale for jumping in the cold tub. Uh, but I personally have taken my, uh, duration down from five minutes where I could show how, how much of a tough guy I was to last that long to one or two, because I wanna monitor and mind that sweet spot between oversresing the body. And, and then on the other side, getting a nice, you know, perhaps a psychological benefit is the main one.

Jay (00:15:20):
Yeah. And if someone wants to make the argument that for mental toughness, you have to, you know, fast for extended periods of time or prove that you can do something, you know, that that’s fine. I don’t necessarily think, you know, we can discuss maybe at a different time, whether that is beneficial from a mental standpoint. I mean, that’s a whole other conversation. Yeah. But oh no. It’s, I don’t think we should discuss that as

Brad (00:15:41):
You know, it reminds me right now, Dr. Phil Maffetone, one of the leading endurance coaches in the world. He said straight up, you don’t need to train the brain to suffer and you don’t need to train the anaerobic system to suffer. The anaerobic system fires exclusively. He was talking to endurance athletes where, you know, we gotta go out and run 20 miles, five times before the marathon cuz the marathon’s 26 miles. It’s like not for the brain and certainly not for the body. You have to come up and, and dig deep on race day and that’s what race day is for. And that was a, a really important takeaway to realize like we’re pretty tough creatures. And if someone came and put a gun to my head right now, I could run a marathon. I’d be recovering for a long time after. But the fact remains is that we can, we can dig deep unless we dig deep again and again and again. And it’s part of our pattern as we’re the, you know, perfect attendance at the CrossFit this month that’s when we start to get into, again, you pointed this out the idea and I should frame a question from my rant here, but um, don’t, don’t forget stress as cumulative was your point. Maybe you can explain what you mean by that.

Jay (00:16:52):
Yeah. So it’s one of the glaring issues with this idea that we should be using a ketogenic diet or cold thermogenesis or fasting or caloric restriction because they cause stress and that leads to benefit, right? Where get the right amount of stress. It’s not too little, not too much. That’s the idea behind hormesis and one of the glaring problems is that the stress is cumulative. And so if we consider a state where let’s say somebody is clearly dysfunctional, maybe they’re dealing with diabetes or some sort of chronic degenerative state. We know that that’s a body that’s dealing with excessive amounts of stress. And so on one hand, and this is I guess a semi separate point, but on one hand, the idea that we wanna be adding more stress in and that, that is going to lead us to go backward into the right zone, I think is, is not entirely logical.

Jay (00:17:43):
I think at that point you would have to argue that someone in a diabetic state is experiencing too little stress. And I think that that’s a very tough argument to make. And that’s kind of where the cumulative side of things comes in, where when we consider all of the things that drive stress in our environment, whether it’s the lack of sleep, the presence of various pollutants or chemicals in our environment, the food we eat, the all of the other issues with the foods that we’re eating, the amount of exercise we do, the amount of stress we have in our personal lives and with work and, and on and on. There’s a ton of stress that’s accumulating. And then when we add more on top, it’s adding to that same stress bucket because all of that stress is going through the same energy based systems and pathways. And so this was something that, again, coming back to the original and we don’t have to deal with the origins of hormesis too much, but they originally were looking at specific, very toxic chemicals, things like cyanide or cadmium and saying, yes, these are harmful and large amounts, but in really small amounts, they’re actually beneficial. And

Brad (00:18:42):
This is like, government propaganda and mainstream industry trying to BS us into thinking that it’s okay to live near the nuclear test site. Uh, because once in a while, little radiation’s not gonna kill you. Therefore it’s gonna make you stronger

Jay (00:18:58):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The ionizing radiation, it’s

Brad (00:19:00):
Scary shit, man.

Jay (00:19:01):
It is. It is. And, and

Brad (00:19:03):
It’s the same fit. It’s, it’s being propagated now by smiling fitness industry people with six packs.

Jay (00:19:11):
Right, right. And of course there’s, there’s not the awareness that that’s where it’s coming from, but that is the, where it’s coming from and the critiques of those original thoughts or yeah, hypotheses or, or suggestions were one that yes, maybe if you take certain toxic agents, it reduces cancer in one area, but it tends to increases in others or it tends to come with other very negative effects. So that’s part one is, is those earlier studies we’re just focusing kind of myopically on one area, but the other is that stress is cumulative. And so the, a lot of this, again, as you said, is coming from certain industrial means where they said, okay, it’s okay to have a small amount of pollutants in the environment because small amounts are beneficial. When you consider the small amounts from everywhere, you’ve got the ionizing radiation, you’ve got the arsenic, you’ve got the cadmium little bit of everything and that accumulates. And so even based on the original theories, if you’re considering that all these things are accumulative, it really doesn’t pan out. They’re going way far beyond that point where it’s supposed to be beneficial. And again, it even that that original concept is flawed. But the fact that it, that the stress accumulates is, is a huge issue that most people are not considering.

Brad (00:20:16):
And you, you talked about the stress bucket and this idea that the fight or fight response, the general adaptation syndrome is identical. We, we don’t know the difference between, um, a 24 hour fast, an intense workout or a tough day at the office, and so forth. And I know that many people will, view their workout endeavors as a great stress release or a stress balance from the busy day taking care of young children. And then finally they have a two hour window of personal time, so they can go for a bike ride and enjoy nature and scenery. And all those things are indeed wonderful for healthy, balanced lifestyle. But perhaps that bike rider might consider minimizing their heart rate so that the stress impact of the workout is, is less than otherwise.

Jay (00:21:10):
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And, and I think part of the, the kind of solution there is, let’s minimize the stressful things that aren’t benefiting us. So if we’re, if instead of taking a nice leisurely bike ride outside in nature, we’re going as hard as we can in a gym. And it’s, it’s not really bringing us that same joy and also the same benefits. Then we might want to consider what we’re doing there. And at the same time, as you said, let’s also do the things that are going to help minimize that stress, you know, having enough fuel on board, the right types of fuel, you know, providing as much energy as possible to deal with the stressors so that they aren’t actually causing stress. And if they do cause stress it’s as small amount as possible.

Brad (00:21:48):
So, reinforce why I am eating a big bowl of fruit in the morning and then making my super nutrition protein smoothie instead of fasting until noon.

Jay (00:22:00):
Yeah. So, I mean, for one overnight, we don’t have any fuel available. So that alone is a stressor, you know, just the normal functions going on overnight, it’s using up our available fuel and, and energy. And so we wake up and we’ve got relatively low fuel stores. And so even at that point, normally we have a, a spike, a peak in stress hormones, and that’s a natural rhythm that’s supposed to wake us up. But if we don’t then replenish our fuel stores, that the elevated levels of stress will continue to, you know, again, lean us into more fat burning and away from carb burning and slow down our metabolism a little bit. And so those things will continue. And then if, especially if we work out as well, we’re dipping more into those fuel stores and the longer we go without replenishing what we’re using, the more we’re gonna be dipping into that stress. And so having at least some carbohydrates would ideally a good solid meal with some good, you know, good fats, good protein and, and a good amount of carbohydrates. That’ll help to turn off those stress hormones and stress systems as much as possible and as quickly as possible so that we’re using the fuel that’s coming in instead of using what’s stored, which again puts us into that kind of stress famine type state.

Brad (00:23:11):
Oh, I, I’m thinking of a couple follow up questions on behalf of all, all those, all those listening. Um, we’ve been told that this is like prime fat burning opportunity to wake up and fast and perhaps do a workout and then really turbocharge and progress toward our goal of dropping that last five, 10 or 15 pounds.

Jay (00:23:33):
It is prime fat burning opportunity, but that doesn’t mean it’s prime fat loss opportunity. And so I think part of the, the problem here comes with this emphasis on wanting to drive fat burning. And I think what we’re really missing is the other side of that equation, which is fat storage. And so we’re so focused on releasing all this fat from our fat stores and burning it. We’re not focused on the things that drive fat storage, and that is really going to be driven by stress hormones, more than anything, um, you know, and a, and a situation where we’re not using fuel elsewhere. And there’s a lot of fuel left over to go to the fat stores. And so I will say of course, in the short term, when we’re doing something that maybe drives fat burning, like fasting or low carb diet, we will lose some fat.

Jay (00:24:18):
But it’s not as simple as more fat burning equals more fat loss in general in the big picture. And there’s some good research supporting that as well, looking at what’s going on when they have patients in a or subjects in a metabolic ward participants in a metabolic ward. And, uh, you know, they have ’em on a low carb diet versus a low fat diet. And the low carb diet burns a lot more fat, but they actually end up losing less body fat. And this is because there’s a lot more fat storage as well. You’re using those fat storage a lot more as opposed to using other areas of storage. So,

Brad (00:24:51):
I’m a little lost there. How we, how we losing less fat if we’re, if we’re burning fat or we’re, we’re targeting fat burning?

Jay (00:25:03):
Yeah. So, so I know I kind of skimmed over that. There’s a, a specific study I’m referring to, which is by Kevin Hall. And he’s looking a participants that are either on a low carb or low fat diet in a metabolic ward. So I’m measuring everything in a very controlled setting. And in the low carb diet, they’re burning a lot more fat as a fuel, much less carbohydrate, there’s much lower amounts of insulin. And in the high carb diet or the low fat diet, they’re burning much more amounts of carb, like much higher amounts of carbs. And their insulin is higher. And in both, both cases are in diets that are targeted toward fat loss or weight loss. And in both cases, they lose weight. But what they actually find is that in this study, in the low carb group, they lost about the same amount of weight, but they lost less body fat and more muscle mass.

Jay (00:25:52):
And so this comes back to two things. So one we’re relying on more breakdown of protein for our carbohydrate needs. And that of course is an issue. But when it comes to less, uh, body fat loss, yes, more of the body is using fat as a fuel, and there’s much more fat coming in. So that makes sense. And that’s really what you’re seeing is that we’re just shifting from carb to fat burning, but that doesn’t say anything about what’s actually happening at the fat stores. There’s a lot of different regulation that’s going on there. In terms of how much fat of the fat that’s being released is being burned. How much of the fat that’s circulating is getting reabsorbed into the ACY into the adipose tissue. So there’s, there’s a handful of factors that are just not, that are on this other piece of the equation, as opposed to just saying more fat burning equals more fat loss. And, yeah, we wanna be considering those other factors as, as far as what’s, whether we’re actually gonna lose more body fat.

Brad (00:26:45):
It’s kind of like an analogy to the consuming calories and thinking that it’s a direct association with what you’re burning and storing.

Jay (00:26:55):
Exactly. Yeah. We’re missing that whole other, other side of what’s going on.

Brad (00:26:59):
So we’ve also been told that fat burning is more efficient, less stressful generating less reactive oxygen species. It’s a cleaner burning fuel source than glucose, which has been described as dirty burning because it burns so quickly and easily. It’s the low octane fuel that will get you going for, you know, explosive effort, immediate needs. And whereas fat burning should be our default energy source at rest, because it’s more cleanly burning because it utilizes mitochondria. And I think you had some refreshing perspectives on that. So maybe we could talk about the fuel sources and how they, how they burn and throw ketones in there too, because ketones have been touted as this magical wonder fuel, especially for the brain. It burns more cleanly than glucose. That’s why the ketogenic diet was invented a hundred years ago to help protect against seizures and drug resistant seizure patients. And, it all sounds wonderful to be having a campfire that doesn’t have the smoke coming up. You just have these wonderful, warm logs that are burning all night long. And then we’ve had the comparison to being a sugar burner where you’re, wadding up balls of newspaper and twigs and throwing ’em in constantly to keep the flame alive.

Jay (00:28:18):
Yeah, yeah. A lot of things that, you know, I myself was saying to at a period of time, you know, for, for a while. And so I totally understand that perspective. And I think it’s, you know, the glucose versus fat is a good place to start because when we start talking about ketones and there is a relevant conversation there, but we have to remember that a state where we’re producing ketones the vast majority of the body is running on fat. So yes, there’s a small amount of ketones produced for brain function more than anything else, but really we’re in the largely it’s more of a question of fat versus glucose. And then yes, there is some glucose versus ketones question. So there’s in starting with the glucose versus fat. I guess the first place we wanna start is when it comes to glucose, there are, and I think we mentioned this a little bit briefly in the last episode, but there is the complete route of energy production from glucose, the complete glucose oxidation, where it’s going all the way through glycolysis and then through the CREB cycle.

Jay (00:29:13):
And then through the electron transport chain. That’s sometimes called like aerobic oxidation or, you know, oxidation of glucose. There’s also what’s often called anaerobic glycolysis where you could even have aerobic glycolysis where you’re just converting that glucose through glycolysis into lactate. And that is definitely a state where we’re not producing a lot of energy. There’s a handful of issues that are associated with it. It gives us some real short burning fuel for when we’re sprinting, you know, it’s helpful for our muscles, but it’s definitely not ideal for kind of gen like a general state when we’re trying to produce a lot of energy. But it really shouldn’t be happening unless there’s super high energy demands. Like again, muscles when we’re sprinting full out high intensity, something like that.

Jay (00:29:54):
So that’s kind of the, the first just kind of distinction we wanna make is I’m not saying that we wanna be running through just this anaerobic glycolysis all the time. That would never work out very well, but rather you wanna consider the complete usage of glucose all the way through the, you know, through to the electron transport chain versus fat. And so for the biological context, just again, if we’re zooming out, we talked about this, uh, mostly in that last episode where, when the states where we’re going to be relying on fat include when we’re starving or fasting, which could kind of be used interchangeably, but if we’re not eating anything, we rely heavily on use just fat for energy production. If we don’t have carbs available, we’re rely, we’re relying heavily on fat for product energy production. Or if we’re just in the general stress, like stressed out situation, we talked about elevated cortisol and adrenaline, for example, shifting us toward more fat burning fat oxidation.

Jay (00:30:46):
And so the important kind of large picture context is these are all states where we, yes, if they’re driven by adrenaline. We need some energy immediately, but in general, in a fat burning state, if we think more starvation, these are states where we want our metabolism to be slower. We wanna be producing less energy because that allows us to survive for longer. And so, and I know you’ve kind of discussed this in terms of longevity, this idea that we wanna be expending and using less energy, and yes, fat oxidation is a great way to do it because it does lead to a much slower rate of energy production. So that’s kind of the big picture that’s important, but as we’ll get to in a second, the way that it does, this is actually by producing more oxidative stress.

Brad (00:31:30):
Okay. Okay.

Jay (00:31:30):
There’s a, should I dive in

Brad (00:31:32):
If we’re in the lecture hall, all 10,000 of us listening, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a, a silence going over the PA system. And then Jay has to keep talking now and explain,

Jay (00:31:44):
Okay, works for me. So when we are oxidizing, you know, burning for fuel fat versus carbohydrates, we need to be producing more reactive oxygen species with fat in order to slow the rate of energy production. And this is even though it sounds controversial when I’m saying it, this isn’t actually controversial in the research. And even by a lot of the fat burning proponents, like Peter at hyper lipid, for example, has talked a lot about this. About how we need to be burning lots of saturated fats to produce a lot of reactive oxygen species. He looks at that as a good thing. I would argue that it’s not, but either way that is what’s happening. And the reason why it happens again like that biochemical reason. And I won’t dig into this too much, cause I know we’re getting into enzymes and different electron carriers.

Jay (00:32:33):
And it gets a little in depth, but essentially there’s a ratio called the F a DH two to N a DH ratio. And there’s a shift there based on which fuel we’re burning when we burn fats, it’s two and a half times higher than when we burn carbohydrates. And this is if we’re burning a long chain fat. And what that then leads to is a bit of a clog at the electron transport chain where there’s competition between the first two complexes for ubiquinone. And when you have a lot of F a DH two, you’re running through that second complex, a lot using up a lot of the ubiquinone and it leads to what’s called reverse electron transport transfer through the complex, one of the electron transport chain leading to a lot of reactive oxygen species being produced. And it also leads to a low N a D to N a DH ratio, which slows down parts of the CREB cycle and parts of glycolysis particular enzymes like Isocitrate dehydrogenases in the CREB cycle.

Jay (00:33:27):
And then you have inhibition of dehydrogenase and, you know, a few other steps of the, of glycolysis, like Phosphofructokinase. So, you know, that that’s like the kind of more in depth, basic explanation, but essentially this is what’s going on between fat and carbs. And it’s very valuable. We need to have a fuel that we can use slower for when we’re starving or for our muscles when they’re at rest. And they don’t need to produce much energy, or even when they’re walking or doing low intensity activity, we need to have something like that, a low octane fuel. And on the contrary, we need to have something like glucose for those higher octane situations. And in particular, our brain, which is very sensitive, you know, very high energy demands, but also very sensitive to oxidative stress and reactive oxygen species.

Jay (00:34:13):
So when our brains are able to which they should in a healthy state use glucose produce a lot of energy, not very much reactive oxygen species. It leads to, you know, healthy brain function, as we’ll talk about when it comes to ketones, there’s a lot of situations where that’s not helping, or that’s not happening, and that’s where we need some ketones or we need to fix the underlying problem. But the, again, kind of the basics here that fat leads to a lot of oxidative stress initially in the mitochondria, it slows things down sometimes cause ’em uncoupling, which also slows our energy production. So a handful of different things, which again has its role, but is problematic. If we’re relying on that when we actually need more energy and we don’t have the carbs available to do so.

Brad (00:34:59):
And so this extreme concern about the increasing incidence of cognitive decline disease is Alzheimer’s dementia, marked by dysfunctional glucose metabolism in the brain, I think is going to your Energy Balance, premise that we’re not good at burning burning fuel in the brain. And then we start to introduce disease patterns. And so how did we, how did we get to this point? Is it that processed food in the diet? That’s difficult to burn by all cells, including the brain, and that’s where we’re particularly seeing the destruction, the damage.

Jay (00:35:36):
Exactly. So, and I would say this is very parallel to insulin resistance, everywhere, diabetes, everywhere, where we’re not using that glucose, we’re not converting that carbohydrate to energy very well. It’s not the, I would say that the solution is to fix that energy production, not to just remove the carbohydrate altogether. And again, same thing when it comes to the brain, as you’ve mentioned, something that is often currently considered type three diabetes now involves, you know, Alzheimer’s disease in other neurodegenerative states where we’re not able to effectively produce energy from glucose. And I would say let’s fix that energy production from glucose so that it, you know, things work properly as opposed to just issuing that altogether and deciding to run on a different fuel, which I would say has its own costs associated with it. And namely the one that we just talked about, which is that we’re forcing most of our body to run on fat, which doesn’t work too well when we’re trying to minimize stress and keep high metabolic rate with lots of energy and doesn’t work as well for our livers doesn’t work as well for our brains.

Jay (00:36:34):
That’s why they need ketones. And again, just one real quick detail to slip in. This is the reason why our brains can’t use fat for fuel. They use very, very tiny amounts of fat, mostly for structural components, or they chop it up into really small, really short chains of fats, but largely our brains have to use glucose or ketones, they can’t use fat and that’s cuz fat are producing way more oxidative stress and less energies. So

Brad (00:36:58):
Is that a, um, is that an undisputed biological insight,?

Jay (00:37:04):
Largely again, it’s, it’s maybe not a question of zero versus a hundred percent where the brain literally uses 0% fat, but it’s very, very little and that’s why we need to produce ketones when we’re in that state. Um, again, it uses very tiny amounts. They can chop it up into, you know, there’s the, I think it’s in, astrocytes where they take the long chain fats and chop ’em into very short chain fat, so they can kind, you know, be used without as much oxidative stress. But it’s, we’re talking single digit percentage at most. And uh, yeah, that’s why we need glucose or ketones. And that’s why when we’re in a state without glucose, we start to produce those ketones,

Brad (00:37:42):
You said something important there. And I think it, you know, I’m, I’m imagining like what Jay might say to his, an opponent in the in the round table discussion and the, the next person’s itching to grab the mic and say, whoa, whoa, whoa. But you said, um, instead of just running away from, uh, the problem or in the, in the alopathic model here, take a pill because your cholesterol is too high. Why not fix the system? And I think, um, we’ve maybe been guilty of running away from dietary carbs because so many of them are bad and cause so many problems and then we awaken to benefits, but it’s not, we’re missing the, the point or the root cause. And so back to this is just kind of jumping in with that insight that’s been. So, um, of such a revelation to me is like go find nutritious carbs, consume them in the, in the interest of improving your overall metabolic function.

Brad (00:38:42):
And now we’re learning that includes the, the Energy Balance to use a term of being good at burning fat burning carbs and of course using, uh, protein appropriately. And I think you guys do a good job on the show, Mike Fave you on Energy Balance podcast saying, Hey, we’re not in any particular dietary camp, but what you’re arguing for is a responsible use of all the macronutrients sensible meal time habits, and not doing anything extreme but also, you know, sourcing the least offensive and the easiest to digest foods, even to the extent of touting things that, will cause people to scratch their fingernails, like, uh, having some orange juice or, uh, some of the other examples that you provide.

Jay (00:39:29):
Yeah. And that makes me think of a very common analogy that, that you hear in the low carb sphere regarding cholesterol and heart disease where we say, okay, yes, there’s elevated levels of cholesterol, and those can be associated with heart disease, but we don’t blame a fireman for a fireman for a fire it’s there as a protective mechanism. It doesn’t mean the cholesterol itself is the problem. We don’t wanna avoid dietary cholesterol. We don’t wanna avoid things that increase the production of cholesterol, but rather we wanna fix the underlying problem. I would say the same thing is happening in insulin resistance and diabetes, where yes, there’s elevated blood sugar and yes, there’s elevated insulin as well, but those are symptoms of the problem. And that’s actually our body’s adaptive way of trying to best drive glucose oxidation, trying to force it as much as possible cause it’s not working. It’s actually a protective thing. So essentially what we wanna do is fix the root of why that’s happening as opposed to blame the glucose and blame the carbohydrates.

Brad (00:40:22):
So the elevated glucose is a desperate attempt to your, your liver’s dumping more glucose in your bloodstream and saying, Hey, try to burn this please. It’s it’s really good fuel and that’s not working. It’s broken. Is that due to endotoxins and things of that nature, uh, gut dysfunction, or why is this happening consuming horrible sources of glucose that are combined with vegetable oils, whatever

Jay (00:40:55):
Exactly. So the, the problem in that diabetic state is that the cells have enough glucose, but they’re not using it. And so they’re just full of this fuel. And so the glucose that’s in the blood can’t get into the cells. Cells are already full of glucose. Doesn’t matter if you keep increasing insulin again, to an extent, if you add tons, eventually it’ll kind of force them in. But, what it actually tends to to do is just oppose the glucagon. So that’s how it reduces the blood sugar. It doesn’t even help the cells use more of it. So essentially kind of coming back is that you, the cells aren’t using that glucose well, and that is why you have this elevated blood sugar. You have this stress state, cause the body’s saying we’re starved event, starved of energy right now. And so yes, the underlying drivers of that state are things like unsaturated fats. The polyunsaturated fats. Endotoxin is a huge one directly blocks the production of energy at the electron transport chain directly causes this sort of state. There’s a handful of others, just general excess stress hormones, which can come from these situations and can also come from even a low carb diet. And this is known that there’s something called physiological insulin resistance where

Brad (00:42:01):
I I’m raising my hand. Jay, I experienced that when I was in the strict keto experimental stage and was also trying to do my impressive workouts and would have these crash and burn patterns. And then this is going, I didn’t wanna interrupt you, but it’s, it’s a pretty heavy insight to think, I’ve developed what you call it, physiological insulin resistance. In other words, I’m really sensitive to carbs because I haven’t eaten very many and haven’t produced much insulin. Or tell me if I describe that and keep going.

Jay (00:42:31):
Yeah, that’s a big part of it. And also the we’re in a, a fat burning state that’s as you said, reflected by the hormones. So everything is driving us toward fat burning. And so we get the glucose in, but we can’t use it well. So we don’t respond well, like someone who’s insulin sensitive. And this isn’t the, you know, the average person who has diabetes is not dealing with physiological insulin resistance, but I’m more just using it as a demonstration of things of the fact that an excessive, a state of excessive stress, hormones and fat burning will also put us in an insulin resistant state. There can be different causes, right? And so if we’re doing that because of a low carb diet, that’s not really the problem, but if we’re doing it, like if that is happening due to other reasons, it can, it can be a driver.

Brad (00:43:13):
And might that be some of these reasons that you wrote about why I’m describing how, when I eat carbs, I feel bad. I, my energy drops and you gave like four, five reasons for that. Maybe we can go through those.

Jay (00:43:31):
Yeah. So one of them that we’re kind of talking about now is that we’re not using that glucose well, like we’re, we’re in a somewhat insulin resistant state, and that can certainly be part of the problem for sure, as poor glucose metabolism and

Brad (00:43:46):
Again, and so poor glucose, glucose metabolism. I drink a soda and I feel like passing out on the couch. And why, why exactly is that happening? Why am I not using it well, or going, is insulin coming in to make me tired or something?

Jay (00:44:00):
Yeah. So we’re basically going to see a very similar, very parallel, responses, what you see in, in insulin resistance, where the glucose is there in the blood, the cells aren’t using it. So you’re, yes, you’re producing insulin, but then it’s not working. So then, basically your body’s still in a stress state. It’s saying, Hey, there’s still not the energy there that I’m supposed to have. And you end up with instead of production of a lot of stress hormones. So in diabetes, it’s not just a state of excess insulin, but it’s also a state of excess glucagon and generally excess, cortisol as well. So I’m kind of seeing a parallel mechanism if that was, you know, if someone like that were to, to have maybe, you know, a huge amount of, of glucose at once without fixing those problems underlying. But that’s, that’s one of the less com you know, the people listening to this, if they’re feeling bad after carbs, it’s probably not because they’re diabetic, mm-hmm .

Jay (00:44:50):
Instead there’s, there’s a handful of other reasons that are more likely. And one of the most common for people who are generally relying on these stress pathways would be actually a reduction in the stress hormones. So if somebody is, is, you know, eating low carb, they just had a, a black cup of coffee without any food, and they’ve increased their adrenaline and their cortisol, taking in some carbohydrates is the best way to turn those things down, which is something we wanna do. But if there’s no good energy production going on without those, then we’re revealing an underlying state and underlying low energy state. And so that can be, uh, pretty, you know, a pretty big reason, especially early on when your metabolism hasn’t kicked in yet, you know, the kind of non stress metabolism hasn’t really kicked up yet.

Brad (00:45:35):
So it’s unmasking, one’s reliance on fumes for their main source of energy, the stress hormones. And I’m thinking of another example of going off to vacation from your hectic high stress life that you’re running on fumes. And then you get to the resort and you just feel like laying on the lounge chair for four days straight because the stress, the stressors have been eliminated temporarily. And then you realize how exhausted you are, but you didn’t realize it on your last day at work when you had to put in 12 hours, cuz you were going on vacation the next week.

Jay (00:46:12):
Yeah. That’s a great analogy. That’s a really good one.

Brad (00:46:16):
Well, it’s kinda scary in terms of the dietary example, the Hawaii lounge chair example is welcome. And we should all get, get more of that and allow ourselves to bottom out. That happened to me so many times as an athlete where, you know, you go to high altitude training camp, you feel awesome for three weeks, you’re getting in such great shape. You’re not sore, you’re not tired. You’re not even eating that much, cuz you’re just, you know, you’re just, just rolling and then everything falls apart when the stress hormones give out. Um, so, uh, that was two of the reasons and there’s a couple more for, uh, why touting or claiming that consuming carbs causes an energy drop.

Jay (00:46:54):
Yeah. So, uh, probably the next, most common one or one of the most commons for common ones for sure is the gut effects. Right? And so we talked about this a lot. How so much of the benefit from removing carbs from the diet can be because we’re removing these irritating foods that are driving the production of certain compounds from bacteria that we recognize as toxins that are toxic to us. Things like LPs, which is lip polysaccharide or endotoxin, and there’s a handful of others and those will be produced if we’re not digesting those carbohydrates very well either cuz our digestion, isn’t great. It’s not accustomed to that. Or the carbohydrate isn’t very easy to digest. And or if we’ve got dysbiosis or you know, various other factors. And so if we’re feeding that issue and driving an inflamed state those toxins cause intestinal permeability, we absorb them all sorts of, you know, in every bodily system you can think of, that’s going to re raise some havoc and lead to us, not feeling so good. So that can be another very common one, of course, the solution there being that we eat different types of carbs and address our gut health so that we’re not that we’re not experiencing that.

Brad (00:47:57):
So the endotoxin is something that we manufacture in our gut in reaction to processed nasty foods or something?

Jay (00:48:05):
So it’s actually produced by bacteria. It’s both a component of their cell walls and also they produce and release certain amounts of it. And so if we have an overgrowth of some harmful bacteria and we don’t digest the food very well, or it’s very fibrous and it’s feeding those bacteria, they’ll produce and release that endotoxin. And that will create an it’s part, one of the mechanisms through which we get leaky gut. And, it’s something that is seen in endotoxemia where, where you see elevated levels of endotoxin is seen in everything from obesity and diabetes to, you know, heart disease and, and on from there.

Brad (00:48:43):
So leaky gut is now a prominent, um, topic in both progressive health and in mainstream health, starting to recognize how important our gut function is. How does it relate to the Energy Balance story?

Jay (00:48:59):
It’s a, it’s a huge factor. I mean, gut health is a huge factor for if, for no other reason than just, you know, these toxic compounds produced by some of the comp the bacteria or microbes in our gut. I mean, they’re huge, you know, hugely, I would say one of the top, maybe two or three factors that are inhibiting our, our ability to effectively produce energy. So gut health is very important. Again, the solution here being not just to a avoid things that aren’t necessarily a problem, but rather working on supporting and fixing our, our gut health, raising our metabolic rates. So we’re digesting things better and moving out of that stress state, uh, but yes, eating things that are much easier to digest and, uh, that aren’t going to lead to that sort of, you know, toxic production, which tends to come along with a lot of the antinutrients that are coming in, things like grains and nuts and seeds that are again, kind of well recognized in the lower carb spheres.

Brad (00:49:55):
Let’s see, we’ve talked about this a little bit. I wanted to get, get a take from you. I’m sure you’re familiar with the constrained model of energy expenditure. I’m thinking of my interviews with Dr. Pontzer, where he shares his life’s work as an evolutionary anthropologists and contending that human daily calorie expenditure is constrained. And I think his sound bite is we burn around 3000 calories a day, whether we exercise or not. And it seems to be, um, highly validated. And I’m, I’m probably gonna guess part of your answer here when we talked about those dials and being turned up all the way, but I’m also wondering it’s, it’s hard for me to grasp completely because I have so many counter examples from the athletic world where if you, if you train, if you take your training from 20 hours a week to 30 hours a week, you’re gonna get even leaner and you’re gonna win the Tour de France type of example. Right. Um, but what if we start with this premise that we have somewhat of a ceiling on our calorie burning every day, the reproduction repair, locomotion and growth are zero sum game. And we’re considering perhaps in your example, eating more food, how does that mix in to the, to the idea and the fact that, Hey, I wanna see my abs so I’m gonna eat more food per the Energy Balance recommendation, and it’s gonna happen for me magically .

Jay (00:51:30):
Yeah. So I think there’s a lot of great things from that constrained total energy expenditure model and namely that I think it gets to why we don’t, we can’t just outstress our metabolism. We can’t outstresss, you know, just lead to create a ton of stress to create weight loss without coming at the cost of these other areas, right, without coming at the cost to growth and repair and, and general function. So that’s super important, right? That if we’re just trying to exercise a ton and not only just exercise, but if we’re fasting, if we’re doing cold thermogenesis, all those things are in that kind of wasteful energy expenditure. We’re not using it for digestion or for brain function or something like that. We’re using it externally. And so those are all taking from the energy available for those other functions. And the result of that is we turn down those other functions, it’s mediated through stress hormones, which also reduce the activity of our thyroid and our thyroid hormone conversion. It reduces the production of reproductive hormones. That’s part of how it reduces, you know, reproductive function. But those hormones also are responsible for keeping our metabolism high. So there’s all of these very cohesive, intelligent responses to the excessive wasting of energy that try, you know, that are there for our survival and for our long term, again, survival, not long term health necessarily, but for

Brad (00:52:48):
Survival distinction, distinction important.

Jay (00:52:50):
Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that that is something that’s really great. That’s elucidated by the model. Now, the part that I do disagree with, which you’re kind of getting to is that I think the model is accurate if all things that all else is equal, right? If we’re not changing the types of foods, if we’re not removing those industrial seed oils and on and on. Hmm. Uh, but there are a ton of factors that are going to affect where kind of that limit is. And a lot of that comes back to where we’re at hormonally and whether we’re efficiently producing energy from our food. And so, you know, a couple of, kind of, not necessarily extreme, but on one end of the spectrum, if we think of someone who’s young and, uh, growing, or maybe they’re a teenager or early twenties, maybe they’ve already grown. Right. So that it’s not like they’re using this extra energy or fuel for growing, but let’s say you’re in your early twenties, it’s way easier, you know, you can eat way more and still not, and still remain lean. Right. That’s something that people recognize. And then as they get older, there start to be some limitations there that’s just a sign of, I would say the accumulation of issues that are lowering that limit. Um, it doesn’t have to be that way, but for the average person it is,

Brad (00:54:03):
Oh, so just things are catching up to us that we can get away. It it’s, it’s literally true when everyone’s saying I got away with this and that in my youth. And so it’s the accumulation of stressors to go back to that commentary.

Jay (00:54:16):
Yeah. And the accumulation of things that, that will inhibit our ability to produce energy as well. But that goes, you know, the stress hormones are one of the main ones there. So that’s, that’s kind of one way to think of it. Another ways if you took maybe a body builder, who’s using anabolic steroids, they can eat a ton, huge amount of food. And that food is not going to be used to produce body fat, but rather it’s gonna go toward building muscle, or they’re gonna remain very lean. And that’s again, just indicative of what can change just by the hormonal state that we’re putting ourselves in. Yeah. And again, when we come back to the, the root of that hormonal state, it comes back to energy. That’s going to be the main thing, determining, you know, keeping stress hormones, low thyroid up, uh, thyroid hormone conversion up to the active T3 hormone, keeps your testosterone up all of that. So if we’re doing the things that really favor that sort of state, of course, maybe without the, the external anabolic steroids, we can create a, a similar effect.

Brad (00:55:11):
Well, that’s good to paint that extreme example because, um, that bodybuilder is just utilizing energy differently. Um, now the, the calorie burning is constrained by the amount of lean muscle mass per Dr. Pontzer’s premise, right? And so the bodybuilder getting more muscle mass is gonna burn, not as many calories as we think. It’s like, you know, you’re gonna burn a couple hundred more calories a day. If you put on a bunch of muscle mass, however, something’s going on there that really illustrates this tremendously cuz the use of doping is overriding any potential frailties in your beautiful Energy Balance machine. And so we can, we can look to those examples and go, wow, here here’s, what’s possible if I try to optimize and I, I talk about, um, hormones and testosterone and aging, cuz I’m in the, I’m in the age groups of where this stuff is important and it’s like, you gotta do everything you can to optimize. And then, and only then, you know, if you’re saying I’m checking every box and I, I want to go consider hormone replacement therapy when I’m an old man, well, we can have that conversation. But until then, it’s, it’s a ridiculous notion to try to override your shitty habits.

Jay (00:56:24):
Yeah. A hundred percent. And, and we can take the extremes on the other side too, right? Somebody who has very overt hypothyroidism or has Cushing syndrome where there’s a ton of cortisol and those people will gain weight on very small amounts of food intake, right. And their, their constraints are way lower. So there’s a ton of things and those are just looking top level, right? Just the hormones. But those are affected by everything that’s going on underneath all the, the nutrients that are coming in, how frequently the types. And so we can do a lot to change those levels. And that’s kind of where my focus is, is let’s, let’s make it so that we’re producing as much energy and create, you know, having as much energy available as possible to go toward those extra things, the growth, the repair, the function and not store fat at the same time. Right.

Brad (00:57:07):
So, oh, it’s sorry to make sense. It’s I hope the listeners you’re with me, right. This are, these are important insights. And um, I think before we let you go take us through like a hypothetical client interaction where you have someone who’s hypothyroid or a bodybuilder using steroids, whoever wants to come and talk to Jay. Uh, but how do we how would you work to optimize? What things would you look at or what things would you recommend besides your seven day free course, but in terms of, uh, people looking under every rock and I think a lot of listeners have, have turned over those rocks and um, tried out, uh, a keto plus, CrossFit equation and many other things that are so well intended and laudable that you’re putting in that much motivation, but off track?

Jay (00:57:58):
Yeah. So, so many of the, I mean, I would say the root cause of virtually all symptoms, we’re experiencing come back to a lack of energy availability and whether it’s not being able to sleep well because our stress hormones are too high or we’re trying to go to sleep or we’re waking up at night because our glycogen stores are running out, cuz we’re not storing enough carbohydrate, or we’re, uh, not getting deep sleep for a parallel reason or maybe we’re having hot flashes during the day or we’re dealing with extreme hunger or I don’t know, we’ve got a little body temperature,

Brad (00:58:32):
You know, afternoon blues is my main complaint. I felt great at my sprint workout, Jay, I, I nailed it this morning. And then at 2:30, where I I’m collapsed on the ground in a, in a, a beautiful nap, but maybe a little bit over that edge of a refreshing nap to a desperately necessary nap. And I, I don’t really like that feeling so much.

Jay (00:58:52):
Yeah, yeah. Those energy dips. Absolutely. Uh, absolutely. You know, skin health, again, reproductive health, libido. These are all signs of a state where we don’t have enough energy available to go toward the growth, the repair, the function, you know, digestive symptoms, same thing, immune, like immune system symptoms. We’re getting cold a lot or the, the illnesses are lingering or again, of course the, the more overt chronic conditions, the autoimmune, the, the diabetes, the, the heart disease, all of these coming back to the same kind of underlying drivers. Mm-hmm . And so normally when I’m working with someone, that’s the place that we start, right? What is your day to day experience like? And then it’s a matter of doing everything we can to allow our bodies to produce energy more efficiently. And we were talking about eating more and that being a goal, but that’s definitely not the place I would start.

Jay (00:59:44):
Cause if we’re not producing energy efficiently and we just eat more, that will spill over toward fat, it’ll be directed toward fat. You might end up with some more energy for sure, but you’re gonna end up with a lot of, there’s so much inefficiency there that you will end up storing a decent amount. So that tends to be one of the later places I would look unless someone’s really, you know, extremely low on the calorie side. But instead I would look toward getting the right fats and the diet, right, avoiding those polyunsaturated fats. We talked about in the last episode, I would go toward eating the really easily digestible carbohydrates. If someone’s coming from low carb, that’s a small tweaking over time, right? It’s not going from zero to 200 grams of carbs in the day or 400 or something like that. Of course, uh, it’s slow tweak up so that the, we can shift away from that physiologically insulin resistant state toward a more balanced state where we’re burning both fat and carbs.

Jay (01:00:33):
And that would also involve eating them throughout the day, maybe at certain targeted times to minimize stress from a workout or to make sure that we sleep through the night. Right. You know, having some, some solid carbohydrates with dinner, maybe even in the evening, depending on what someone’s experiencing. Uh, so that would be another really big piece is kind of choosing the right fats and then the right carbohydrates and slowly titrating those up and really making a big difference and reducing the things that we might be doing that are driving the excessive stress and shifting our workout so that, again, they’re still giving us benefit, but they’re just less stressful, you know, maybe less volume maybe through a reps per set, maybe less frequency, maybe less cardio, you know, things like that.

Brad (01:01:16):
Yeah, that’s a big one, uh, because we’ve been socialized to think more is better and that struggling and suffering is the path to fitness and to optimal physique. And I think if we can find that, that sweet spot where we get the maximum adaptive benefits of diet of exercise with, you know, the minimal stress, that’s when we’re, that’s, when we’re grooving, that’s, that’s a great message that, you know, kind of oversees your whole, content there.

Jay (01:01:48):
I think you, yeah. Yeah. I think you said it pretty well.

Brad (01:01:50):
Jay Feldman people go take the free quiz, get deep into this scene, the Energy Balance podcast. I’m I’m on a binge myself. I’ve listened to dozens of shows. Now, Mike Fave is always there doing a great job. So we give him a plug, at but everything can be found at Jay Feldman, wellness.com and the Energy Balance podcast.

Jay (01:02:11):
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me I’m Brad and, uh, yeah, for that free mini course, people can head to Jay Feldman, wellness.com/energy. And again, I’ll kind of detail some of the good places to start nutritionally and lifestyle wise, especially for someone who’s who’s, uh, you know, finding some of the information here to be quite contrasting with where they’re at.

Brad (01:02:30):
So love it, man. We’ll probably gonna have to beg you to come back on. I’m sure we’ll get a lot of feedback. So send your questions in and it was great to make the connection. Thank you so much for another great show, Jay Feldman. Thanks for listening everybody. Thank you for listening to the show. I love sharing the experience with you and greatly appreciate your support. Please. Email podcast@Brad ventures.com with feedback, suggestions, and questions for the Q and A shows. Subscribe to our email list at bradkearns.com for a weekly blast about the published episodes and a wonderful bimonthly newsletter edition with informative articles and practical tips for all aspects of healthy living. You can also download several awesome free eBooks when you subscribe to the email list. And if you could go to the trouble to leave a five or five star review with apple podcasts or wherever else, you listen to the shows that would be super, incredibly awesome. It helps raise the profile of the B.rad podcast and attract new listeners. And did you know that you can share a show with a friend or loved one by just hitting a few buttons in your player and firing off a text message? My awesome podcast player called Overcast allows you to actually record a soundbite excerpt from the episode you’re listening to and fire it off with a quick text message. Thank you so much for spreading the word and remember B.rad

 

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