Enjoy this second show with Alex, where we left the mic on after our interview emphasizing his book, The Explorer’s Gene, and started talking about Mark Sisson and my new book, Born To Walk.
We planned to have a “friendly debate” about the book’s premise that running is a bad idea for most people. Alex, as a longtime runner, had a much different basic notion—that running is a rich and meaningful form of enjoying recreation, physical fitness and health.
Well, there were no fireworks during our talk, but rather a nuanced discussion of the benefits of running when you do it correctly. The best takeaway from Alex is: If you are able to run and recover from running workouts, it’s great. But of course you must avoid overtraining.
Enjoy our discussion and please check out Alex’s excellent column in Outside magazine online called Sweat Science.
Visit alexhutchinson.net for more details.
TIMESTAMPS:
Alex, a long time runner and promoter of endurance running, brings his perspective to Brad as they discuss the book Born to Walk. [00:46]
Alex is not as worried about the dangers of training at too high a level. [09:30]
There are no magic bullets for dropping excessive weight. [14:31]
Don’t be under the impression that running a marathon is the path to better health. [16:49]
If you have aches and pains after running, don’t run more. It is not going to make your pain better. [18:25]
A 10K would be an amazing achievement for the average generally inactive person. If they worked hard and prepared properly for six months, it’d be all a celebration in every direction. [21:02]
The longevity research is pointing toward attributes like your strength training regimen. [24:09]
LINKS:
- Brad Kearns.com
- BradNutrition.com
- B.rad Whey Protein Superfuel
- Brad’s Shopping Page
- BornToWalkBook.com
- B.rad Podcast – All Episodes
- Peluva Five-Toe Minimalist Shoes
- The Explorer’s Gene
- AlexHutchinson.net
- Outside Magazine
- Endure
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TRANSCRIPT:
Brad (00:00):
Welcome to the B.rad podcast, where we explore ways to pursue peak performance with passion throughout life without taking ourselves too seriously. I’m Brad Kearns, New York Times bestselling author, former number three world ranked professional triathlete and Guinness World Record Masters athlete. I connect with experts in diet, fitness, and personal growth, and deliver short breather shows where you get simple actionable tips to improve your life right away. Let’s explore beyond the hype hacks, shortcuts, and science talk to laugh, have fun and appreciate the journey. It’s time to B.rad.
Alex (00:38):
Is running a magical way of dropping body weight? No. Is anything a magical way of dropping body weight?
Brad (00:46):
Hello, listeners. How about a friendly, ou lively debate about Born to Walk with Alex Hutchinson? We talked about trying to get into an argument and he talked about putting on his brass knuckles as we started this segment of the show, but it was cool ’cause I just kept the, the microphone on after we talked about his book and had a great conversation there. And then we proceeded to get his insights from his reading of Born to Walk, especially from the lens of being a long time runner and promoter of endurance, running as a wonderful aspect of life and pursuing meaningful peak performance goals, but making sure that we clarify the message. And I think he did a great job setting the stage and having a friendly debate and discussion where we found so much common ground. So it’s not too many, not many fireworks, but I think you’ll really appreciate Alex Hutchinson’s take on the message that Mark Sisson and I carefully curated in the book Born to Walk. So here it goes, Brad and Alex talking about Born to Walk and endurance running in general, and especially why a marathon’s too far. You should train for the mile instead, like Alex or the 400 meters like me. Ha. Here we go. Alex Hutchinson, such an honor to connect with you again all the way across the continent to snowy Canada.
Alex (02:10):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Brad. From the depths of my igloo here up in, in Canada, I send greetings to the warm parts of the world and yeah, it’s awesome to be back and I’m excited to talk.
Brad (02:20):
I sent you a copy of Born to Walk and we had some fun exchanges over email. I think the listeners, viewers already know that we both have this, you know, tremendous background in endurance sports and running. It’s been a big part of our lives and we, Mark and I had, you know, a lot of discussion and nuance about how to present this message in order to not offend the running community, but also call out some of the things that we feel are like a flawed approach that’s causing a lot of struggling suffering for people. And I would love to get into, hopefully it’ll be like a little, you know, friendly counterpoint where, you can, you can stand up for all the wonderful virtues of endurance running.
Alex (03:03):
Yeah. Hang, hang on. Just lemme get these brass knuckles on and then I’ll be, I’ll be ready for the.
Brad (03:06):
Yeah, that’s right.
Alex (03:07):
Discussion.That’s, um, yeah, no, thank you for sending the book and, and you know, I was all ready to get really worked up about it and, and angry. But I found, I found that you guys took a very reasonable approach. On a high level. I guess lemme try and start an argument here, but <laugh>, on a high level, what I would say is, I thought you made a really, first of all, let me start with the positive. You made a great case for walking as the sort of foundation of a healthy lifestyle and long-term health. And I think I couldn’t agree more with that. That, I mean, and that’s fantastic. I’m a big fan of walking, you know, my, I live, we, we live about a mile from the school where my kids go.
Alex (03:53):
Oh, nice. And it’s been our, it’s, it’s a good, just a good distance. ’cause it’s been, we’ve been able to say, look, we have a car. I work from home. I could drive you, but I’m not gonna drive you ever.
Brad (04:05):
Love it.
Alex (04:06):
It doesn’t matter. It’s minus 40. You’re walking, it’s pouring rain. All your friends are being driven, you’re walking. And that’s, they started school at four years old and they’ve walked pretty much every day of their lives to and from school. And, and I do that, not because I hate them, but because I think I want them to start that, have that as the foundation of like, this is how we get it around. We go, we, we walk or we hop on the bike, or to get around, we, we use our bodies. I’m confident that they are happier and in a better frame of mind to learn when they arrive at school.
Alex (04:41):
I’m, you know, myself, I try to do, I live again within about a mile of me, there’s a, there’s a shopping strip with nice, you know, a nice fish store and a meat store and a fruit and veg store and some bakeries and stuff. And so I, rather than doing a big supermarket shop once a week, I try and go three or four times a week, I break out my workday, just go up the street and do some shopping and get dinner that night. And that’s not, that’s not efficient that, that takes time away from my, from my work. But I think it’s like the best. I’m always happy when I go out for a couple hours in the middle, or not a couple hours, like for 45 minutes in the middle of the day Yeah. And do some shopping. So anyway, I think you made a powerful case for something that is good on many levels, health, mental health, all that stuff.
Alex (05:26):
I think you also made a, your critique as of the, of all the, the negative things that can ensue from for runners who get into this obsessive over training pattern. And so you argue that really these, you know, you shouldn’t be running. And I guess my take on that would be is that yeah, obsessively over training is really bad. And so the solution to that is not running as bad. It’s obsessively over training is bad. And so we should and, and obsessively over training. Like, I guess, let me, let me add some nuance to that, that for, for a lot of people who are starting running for the first time going out for a, you know, 5K jog is obsessively over training. And I, I no disagreement with that. You know, you’re getting up off the couch after 20 years of sedentary life, you’re not ready to run a 5K at least, most likely you’re not, it’s probably not good for you.
Alex (06:26):
It’s not the optimal way for you. So I think we see a lot of, I think I, there’s a lot of commonality. I guess I would just take a more permissive approach saying running can be great, but you, you know, you think carefully about how it fits into your life, what you’re hoping to get out of it, and be realistic about where you are now. Because I do think a lot of the, you know, you take the sedentary person who’s going couch to 5K, you know, for the first time bad idea if they’re doing it in three months, but there’s no reason they that in two years they can’t be running a 5K and doing it in a way that’s healthy and balanced and not, you know, having to be effectively racing every time they step out the door. So anyway, that’s my soap box. Start, let’s see, see where we’re at after that.
Brad (07:10):
Yeah. Do you think it’s as, uh, as simple as, um, moderating the training intensity to emphasize the comfortably paced heart rates and not get into that, what they call black hole and, and all the things that you, you’ve written about extensively where the workouts are, you know, slightly too significantly too stressful because of the person’s current state of conditioning, such that we’re talking about a cutoff between jogging and just walking to get aerobic conditioning done.
Alex (07:43):
So I think, I think there’s, so maybe some nuances, some context that we maybe, maybe it’s worth getting into a little bit. I think one of your premises is that training above the Fat Max zone, the sort of getting outta that aerobic state is bad because you’re gonna burn less fat, you’re gonna burn carbohydrate, there’s gonna be stress hormones. So I, as it happens, I actually have an article, uh, as, as we, as we record this, it’s gonna come out in the next day or two, um, in the New York Times about zone two training, which, which is something that has been popularized by Peter Attia. And, I think it has some commonalities with the case you’re making, which is that you should, he would argue you, you should do a bunch of training at precisely this point where you’re maximizing, fat burning so that you’re not switching over to carbohydrate and to aerobic metabolism.
Alex (08:42):
And so, I, I, you know, I spent a cis not as worried about the dangers of training too hard. ouple weeks talking to scientists and getting their, their take on this, and there’s a mixed, there’s a mixed bag. It’s I guess the, the point I would make about this without getting too deep in the metabolism is that if you want to get better at fat burning, which is a good thing, I think it’s, at least from talking to scientists, I’m not <laugh>, I’m not a physiologist. So, so bear with me here, but I don’t know that it’s a true statement, that the only way or the best way to improve fat burning is to maximize fat burning. And you even have this in the book, you mentioned that you, you’re also gonna trigger, you know, PGC one alpha, which is the signaling cascade to improve your mitochondria by doing high intensity intervals. Hmm.
Alex (09:30):
And so I, I guess what I would say is I don’t have, I’m not saying this with high confidence, but I’m not as worried about the dangers of training at too high a level if you’re recovering from it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if you’re doing mm-hmm <affirmative>. Two or three runs a week, and they are above Fat Max mm-hmm <affirmative>. That’s different than if you’re running seven ti times a week and all of them above Fat Max, and you’re never giving yourself a chance to recover. So like a point I would make is you want to improve Fat Max training for a marathon’s a great way to do that, or doing intensity, high intense training. If you take trained runners or if you put people through an intense training program, which is in which they’re burning carbohydrates because they’re doing intense exercise, their fat burning rate will double mm-hmm <affirmative>. So you, you, so this is not my argument that you should therefore train intensely all the time. It’s my argument that I am less worried about getting the zone, whether it’s zone two or other formulations, you know, Maffetone kind of stuff. I’m less worried that that’s really relevant as long as you’re recovering. So I guess mm-hmm. That’s a long answer to your question, which is that moderating intensity such that you’re recovering, I think is actually a big, the big boulder here.
Brad (10:42):
I love it. Yeah. I mean, uh, uh, that’s, that, that opens up the, the, the point that if you push yourself hard, you’re going to get even greater fitness adaptations in a vacuum here. And, um, you know, my fat burning capabilities are, are, are still great, even though all I do is sprinting now because it’s a tough workout. And if I can run a fast 400, I also made it on a 15 hour hike with no endurance training whatsoever last year. And it was great and I felt good. So, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of ways to get there. But it, it seems like we’re kind of, uh, short cutting the, the fundamental principles of endurance training that have date back to Arthur Liddiard where, um, you know, you develop this fitness foundation, this musculoskeletal resiliency to run with correct form and all those things that the running shoes interfere with. And now we have a bunch of plotters who are huffing and puffing, and then you, you put a heart rate monitor on them, and they’re training harder than Eliud Kipchoge by relative comparison. And you probably saw some of that highlighting of Kipchoge Kipchoge’s training, especially the insight from exercise physiologists breaking down his training log and contending that he’s training over 80% of the time in zone one. Forget about zone two.
Alex (12:05):
Yeah. And so, I mean, this, this connects to this, this bigger, uh, theme in endurance sports of, of so-called polarized training where there’s this observation across endurance sports that top athletes tend to spend about 80% of their time doing e relatively easy training, conversational-paced training, and 20% give or take, doing medium or hard training. And this is something that’s like, you know, that in my current life, I do one workout and maybe another one depending on the time a week and the rest of my time is easy jogging, like Yeah. Easy, full, having, you know, full sentence conversation. No problem. And for people who’ve come through, you know, high school and then college running programs, this gets kind of baked in automatically because, well, not to everyone actually do some, do
Brad (12:55):
Good programs get it wrong. Excuse me, Alex. Yeah,
Alex (12:57):
Yeah, yeah. So for people who make it through those programs and survive <laugh>, what gets baked in is if you’re training at a high level and doing hard workouts two or three times a week, or three or four times a week and trying to rack up 60 or 80 or a hundred miles a week, a lot of those miles have to be easy, otherwise you don’t make it to, to, to the next day. And that let, let alone the next week or the next month or the next year. And so for me, it’s just intuitive that yeah, most of your running should be easy. And it’s true. I think imagine that, yeah. It, it’s absolutely true that, that a lot of people, especially people who come to running later, don’t realize that. And so they’re, they’re out there doing the equivalent of a temple run or a race ev, you know, the differential between their, their, their training pace and their race pace is, is infinitesimal. And it’s like, man, that, that doesn’t seem like a good way of training. So I, you know, I, I absolutely, I I think there’s, there’s some important messages that need to get it to get out there.
Brad (13:54):
If you had the, uh, the opportunity to address, uh, all recreational runners, but would you tell them in terms of maybe a, a more optimal approach than what we’re, what we’re seeing these days as evidence, for example, by the injury rate? And also there’s some stats, like the Cape Town Marathon had 30% of participants that exceeded healthy BMI, so they weren’t succeeding with the supposed, assumed goal of dropping excess body fat and getting a nice running physique like you see with the elites, but not with the slower runners.
Alex (14:31):
Yeah. Okay. There’s a lot in there. So first of all, if I’m addressing all recreational runners, first thing I’m gonna say is buy my book. Now, the second thing I’m gonna say is now there’s a, there’s a couple things that, let me, let me go a little bit reverse there. And, and the body weight thing is running a magical way of dropping body weight. No. Is anything a magical way of dropping body weight? Um, you know, we don’t need to argue about it, but what I would say is, you know, if you are already overweight, it is a complicated process that will, that that where there are no magic bullets, there may, there are some, a number of approaches that, that people have success with. Generally, different people have success with different approaches. So I, I think I agree with you that running shouldn’t overpromise these things.
Alex (15:16):
Look, I was, I wrote for, I was a columnist Runner’s World for five years between 2012 and 2017. I don’t think that’s what Runner’s World is promoting these days. I think most people are pr like, are some people promoting it for sure. But, uh, I think there’s a recognition of, of what’s more realistic of, and I would, you know, not to jump around here, would I say that running is what everyone should do. It’s the best thing, the best way to optimal health and happiness, probably not for everybody. Like it, it could be for anybody, I think with, with, for most people, with, with appropriate caveats. But there’s a lot of ways to be healthy. And so I’m, I’m just kind of against the position that we’re searching for the one true way of being healthy and happy.
Alex (16:09):
I think running is a possible is a good, it’s a good road for a lot of people, but only if they want to. Like, I’m not, I’m not out there trying to sell I’m not going door to door trying to sell people on the benefits of running, um, in terms of what’s the better way. So the advice to, to runners, so a couple of things. I would say the big picture is however patient you’re being, be more patient, um mm-hmm <affirmative>. That, that you, you know, whatever your goals are, they should be set in years, not months. At least your bigger goals. Like, you know, you want, if you’re come starting from nothing run, you know, you wanna run a 5K, don’t sign up for a 5K. That’s three months from now.
Alex (16:49):
And if you, if you have the itch to run a marathon, first of all, don’t, don’t be under the impression that running a marathon is the path to, to better health. Running a marathon’s a fun challenge. You don’t need to run a marathon to be, that’s more than you need to run to optimize your, your health. And if you haven’t been running before, I would recommend, you know, putting that in the calendar for a couple years from now at best. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Don’t, don’t go from nothing to that. And in terms of how you structure your, the, the running in your week, I guess going back to this idea of polarized training, it’s 80 20 training, which as you mentioned, you know, Eliud Kipchoge and every, you know, lots of other people follow, it’s like most of your training and ballpark, 80% should be so easy that you could, should be easy enough for you to maintain a conversation. And if you can’t, you do run walk. Like the, the biggest the biggest source of running advice here in Canada is a chain called Running Room.
Alex (17:47):
They have stores across the country and they are famous for their run walk program. You go to a clinic, you’re gonna be, you, you run a bit, then you walk for a minute, then you run a bit, then you walk for a minute, depending on how advanced you are. And this is one of those things where in this quote unquote serious running community, there’s a lot of scoring for that. It’s like, ah, running room there, promoting run walk. And it’s, and that’s a mistake because look, for most people showing up to a clinic for the first time, wanting to learn how to run, um, maybe as you say, maybe some people need to just walk for a while, or if they, but if they can run, maybe they need to run for a minute on and then walk and do a minute on, minute off, and then gradually move up to two on one off.
Alex (18:25):
Jeff Galloway, I guess, made that approach famous too. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, uh, it’s hard if you were a decent high school athlete in, you know, 1988 back in the day, and you still, yeah, you still think of yourself as a pretty athletic person to, to accept that. But, yeah, like really long, having a long lasting, happy relationship with running requires understanding your limitations and also listening to your body and recognizing to, to the, to the musculoskeletal element when you’re having aches and pains. And if you know, day two and it’s, it’s still hurting, you need to back off. You need to, you know, you’re not gonna make your, your ache and pain get better, um, by just doubling down.
Brad (19:17):
Yeah. It seems like we’ve been socialized that these are necessary components of the fitness experience. Same with CrossFit programming and endurance training, where you’re just supposed to, you know, suffer your way all the way to the starting line for your marathon in an accelerated course with the example of those charity training programs, and then suffer your way all the way through the finish. ’cause it’s such an extremely long distance.
Alex (19:42):
Yes, that’s true. And I don’t think it’s great, I guess I would say, but you know, before I throw charity Marathons, marathon is under the bus, I will say, if I had the choice for somebody that, hey, they’re gonna sign up for a marathon six months from now and go through one of these crash courses, or they’re going to carry on with business as usual and not get active, probably I’d pick the marathon, you know, try the marathon. Sure. Yeah. now is the, if the optimal approach was like find a sustainable, uh, exercise program that’s matched to your current abilities and your current body, I’m gonna pick that for sure. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But, uh, accepting that we don’t live in the optimal world where everyone responds to, you know, if we all responded to rational incentives, the world would be very different. But we’re, we’re subject to, you know, we live in, in the societies we live in, and we’re, we’re, we respond to cues that we don’t even know why we’re responding to them. So I, I think those programs can actually do a lot of good for some people. But I agree that you’re, you’re, you’re loading up the, the barrel of the gun with a few bullets and, and, and hoping that you, you don’t end up shooting yourself if you’re trying to jump into a marathon six months from now with no background. Yeah.
Brad (21:02):
It seems like overall they’re doing a better job with more smorgasbord of appropriate events. So there’s group training programs for half marathon, which, as you probably glance through in the first chapter of the book where we talk about fip not really running that 26 mile jaunt and collapsing triumphantly at the finish. The marathon is completely arbitrary distance, just like the Ironman numbers are put up from, uh, as, as the legend goes, a bunch of drunk sailors bragging on what was the toughest event in Hawaii. So they don’t have any like significance, like perhaps races around a 400 meter track do, because the tracks are all over the place and we can time them and all that. So why don’t we broaden our horizons and say, wow, A 10 K would be an amazing achievement for the average generally inactive person. If they worked hard and prepared properly for six months, it’d be all a celebration in every direction.
Alex (21:55):
Hey, if I had my way, the most celebrated citizen athlete achievement would be to run a mile as fast as you can. Yeah. That, that believe me. But, meaning is culturally constructed and, and, you know, we don’t necessarily get to create our own meaning. We, we can, we can try by writing books like the book you’ve written, we can try to, to create meaning and to, to move the dialogue in, in a given direction. But, yeah. Look, I ran one marathon in my life. I ran it, it’s now 12 years ago. Sorry to hear that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was miserable. Um, it’s,
Brad (22:29):
It’s, it is a disgrace for a, a national level 1500 meter athlete to, to run a marathon. I mean, it’s like, it’s like putting w3 a thoroughbred into the Tevis cup, a hundred mile endurance ride, uh, that they do on the Western States trail. It’s like, no, you can’t put secretariat out there. He’ll hurt his little, he’ll hurt his little precious hoof.
Alex (22:48):
And believe me, my precious hoofs were in agony by the time I got to the finish line. Now, it was awful. Uh, but I did it. And you know what, like I, I’m, I’m glad I did it. ’cause now I, yeah, I know what it, it’s like bucket. Yeah. But I, these days, I run, I mean, the cross country I run goes up to about eight k\. My, the road races I usually run, I’ll run a couple five Ks a year. Occasionally I’ll run an eight K depending on if the timing works. That’s what I find interesting. Now that’s, that’s a reflection in part of my personal physiology and what I happen to be good at. And so I have friends who are much better at longer distances, and I recognize that they are more, they have more fun pushing those buttons.
Alex (23:23):
But I will join you in saying let’s break the cultural hegemony of the, of the marathon and say, uh, running a 400 meters, uh, that’s a, that’s a pretty good challenge. Uh, you know, high jumping, running the mile, running a 5K, uh, you know, there’s, there are lots of ways and that are as noble as challenging as, as healthy and as hard if you choose to, you know, a mile is as hard. I as hard, I, you know, I moaned for a few minutes about how hard a marathon was. I’ve packed the same amount of suffering into four minutes <laugh> while trying to run, you know, a mile
Brad (24:02):
Run you on unfamiliar with the event. It’s basically a marathon of suffering in around four minutes. I love it. At
Alex (24:08):
Least you get it over with quickly.
Brad (24:09):
Yeah. And you know, the, the longevity research especially is pointing toward attributes like your, your strength and your strength training regimen. And the Cooper Institute in UT Southwestern did that study with 66,000 people, defining the mile runtime at age 50 as a huge predictor of one’s ability to live to age 85 in good health and a deficient mile runtime being a huge red flag risk factor, just like deficient VO two max that we’re hearing about now being, you know, an all-encompassing, metric to show that you’re, you’re in rough shape buddy and you gotta get, gotta get your but in gear, whether it’s going for 400 mile or, or longer.
Alex (24:49):
Yeah. I mean, look, the, as far as I know, one of the best, if you want to have a predict, you know, take, do one lab test to find out what your longevity status is, VO 02 max is, is, is, is a pretty good bet for it. That’s your aerobic, basically a measure of your aerobic fitness. It’s how, how quickly you can take oxygen from the atmosphere into your lungs. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Get it into your bloodstream, pump it to your muscles and use it to your muscles. That’s aerobic fitness VO O2 max pace. It’s roughly, uh, it depends on the level of the runner, but we’re talking somewhere between the mile race and three, you know, two mile race, three, 3000 in metric. Hmm. So those are, those are the really good lengths of, of, uh, of challenge to take on for, for maximizing your, the VO 02 max, which in turn is a great barometer of, of overall fitness.
Alex (25:44):
So, um, yeah, you know, you can do it ’cause the mile has great history or you can do it because the mile is, is important. But you also mentioned strength training of course. Like, I, you know, if I’m, if I was gonna address the, or or angle the, the self-critical lens at myself, I would say, heck yeah, I need to do more, more strength training. And I just, I actually just installed a squat rack in my basement. And not because I’ve ever done a squat before and know how to do it because I think I should, I think it looks I need to get better at.eah. You know, for the guns, but also, uh, ’cause I think having muscle is important for longevity and I, I happen to have a skinny phenotype, which makes running fairly easy on my body, but it also means that if I’m not careful, I’m gonna be 75 years old and not able to get up a flight of stairs or get outta a chair.
Brad (26:34):
Alex Hutchinson, such a interesting conversation is always, how can we connect with you? We’re going to go to our favorite bookstore and order the Explorer’s Gene might wanna pick up Endure while you’re at it. That, that two for one that’s, Amazon suggests down below, but that would be a great one-two punch. And, what other ways can we connect with you?
Alex (26:57):
Well, thank, yeah, thank you for having me, Brad. I’m sorry we didn’t manage to have a fight, but, uh, <laugh>, I mean,
Brad (27:02):
We’ll, let’s manufacture one if we want. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, you know, what,
Alex (27:05):
Are you talking to me <laugh>? But, uh, no, it, it was a fun conversation and, uh,
Brad (27:09):
Let’s settle this on the squat rack in your basement, man.
Alex (27:11):
No, no, no, no, no, no. arathon. Um, yeah. Uh, my website is www.alexhutchinson.net, and from there you will, of course find link sto the books. And also I, I read a column for Outside Magazine roughly once a week on new research that’s coming out in the Science of fitness and health. And, and so they’ll, you can find a link to that from also alex hutchinson.net. Wow.
Brad (27:36):
Once a week is your, is your production. That’s impressive, man. I had to subscribe. I, I binged on so many of your articles and then you’re like, sorry, you’ve reached your monthly limit. I’m like, okay. Okay. So yeah, absolutely wonderful work there that I’ve read for so many years. So I really encourage people to go to Outside magazine and type your name in there and go to the .net where he casts a wide net
Alex (27:59):
<laugh>. That is a good fun to end on.
Brad (28:02):
Thank you so much for a great show. Thanks for listening, watching everybody. Thank you so much for listening to the B.rad Podcast. We appreciate all feedback and suggestions. Email, podcast@bradventures.com and visit brad kearns.com to download five free eBooks and learn some great long cuts to a longer life. How to optimize testosterone naturally, become a dark chocolate connoisseur and transition to a barefoot and minimalist shoe lifestyle.
