It’s time to meet my neighbor, YouTube sensation Thomas DeLauer!
Get ready for a truly inspiring and wide-ranging conversation as Thomas shares his deeply personal story, talking about the many challenges he has faced throughout his life—challenges that ultimately led him to the position he is currently in today.
Thomas discusses the moment with a stranger that completely changed his life, hot topics like doping and the Liver King controversy, both of our current reflections on restrictive diets, and his personal dietary strategy—a rare occurrence to enjoy since he prefers to be the voice that distills and shares scientific info with others.
Enjoy the show!
Thomas tells of his amazing turn-around from a 300-pound fatty to his popular YouTube site on health and fitness. [01:26]
It is not normal to be obsessed about your circumstances. It is important to be authentic about who you are. [07:47]
During his high school years, Thomas struggled with a roller coaster existence of eating disorders, and other compulsions. [11:54]
As he was piling on excessive weight, he was focused on earning money in his career, ignoring the unhealthy way he was living. [17:07]
When his friend noticed Thomas eating his daily dose of tacos, he suddenly realized what he was doing to himself. [20:01]
We need to understand how to modulate our athletic activity and understand the reason we are doing it. [27:22]
Intermittent fasting worked for Thomas in getting the pounds off. [30:23]
Thomas explains water retention and inflammation to explain losing 50 pounds in three months. [34:18]
How did Thomas get on magazine covers? [40:01]
Every time you take a diuretic or every time you sodium deplete and replete, you rebound although it is not a healthy thing to do. [48:17]
Thomas’s current business is explaining and educating what worked for him. Listen to folks who actually walk the walk. [49:44]
The doping scene in sports is common but the attitudes about it differ. [54:29]
When considering hormone replacement, try all your other possibilities first, then sit with a good practitioner and learn the healthiest way to do it. [01:07:56]
The revolving use of restrictive dietary strategies for peak performance works differently for different people’s needs. Remember that it is a stressor. [01:11:58]
Do we need more weight loss studies? Should we eat carbs and fats at the same time? [01:19:20]
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Welcome to the B.rad podcast, where we explore ways to pursue peak performance with passion throughout life without taking ourselves too seriously. I’m Brad Kearns, New York Times bestselling author, former number three world-ranked professional triathlete and Guinness World Record Masters athlete. I connect with experts in diet, fitness, and personal growth, and deliver short breather shows where you get simple, actionable tips to improve your life right away. Let’s explore beyond the hype, hacks, shortcuts, and sciencey talk to laugh, have fun and appreciate the journey. It’s time to B.rad.
It’s time to meet my neighbor. Yes, everybody. It’s Thomas DeLauer, the YouTube sensation. And what are the odds that two of the health and fitness leaders of the planet would move one door away from each other? That’s right. We live on the same street in Stateline, Nevada. One door away. Imagine our neighbors in the middle.
Marty and Mindy being inundated with health and fitness advice, expertise, and inspiration. I think they put their house up for sale. No, just kidding. Great people. Anyway, Thomas, what a guy. You’re going to love this show, and it’s taken a while for us to connect in person. We had to travel <laugh> far away from our home in Lake Tahoe to finally get our schedules to meet up. And, uh, you probably know that we’ve been displaced from our home in Tahoe for a while due to a tree accident. So finally, I get to go into his hood due a super badass workout and a nice leisurely hike before we sat down to this wide ranging amazing podcast. And you’re going to appreciate his deeply personal story. And he talks about the many challenges that he’s had, both personally and with family over the years. And it really has led him to the position that he’s in today, which is this magazine cover model with the six-pack and the viral YouTube following, and the wonderful, highly educational and highly scientifically referenced videos that has put him to the top of the heap with 3.2 million followers.
But in his back story, he was a corporate fatty guy hitting the road and trying to make sales on commission, and he ballooned to over 300 pounds. And he got his life turned around with an extreme approach that he reminds us during the show. You don’t want to follow me, you don’t want me to be your role model because I follow path that’s too extreme. And it’s really, uh, important to reflect on that and then pick and choose, uh, the information and the inspiration that we can get from our leaders. So I appreciate him with that wisdom and perspective to put out the information and not browbeat people that his way is the way to go. But he does have a pretty amazing turnaround from being this outta shape overweight guy. He describes a life-changing event during the podcast, which is absolutely amazing and pretty hilarious.
It was a drive by someone noticing him scarfing down at Jack-in-the-Box. And that was the start of everything turning around. Pretty soon he was on one magazine cover. He’s gonna tell you how to get on magazine covers <laugh>, and then he was on two, and then he was on 10, and he started creating content way back when he was one of the early YouTubers in the fitness space. So it’s a wide ranging conversation you can imagine coming over and dropping by the neighborhood for a chit chat with the neighbors. We cover a variety of topics, including some of the hot topics of the day, especially doping in elite sports and bodybuilding scene, the recreational use of performance enhancing drugs by fitness enthusiasts. Of course, we have the obligatory mention and discussion about the Liver King controversy. Then we talk about my current reflections on the use of strategic diets, restrictive diets like fasting and Keto.
Thomas has been strongly associated with fasting and keto recommendations that were tools that helped him get to magazine cover status, but also the appropriate deployment of such strategies. And he has some really good recent content about that where he’s done some reflecting and rethinking and repositioning. He also talks about his own personal dietary strategy, which he does not talk about much, and you won’t see much video content on. He’s mainly considers himself a a voice of sharing the research, distilling the complex topics from research into actionable tips. But you’re gonna get a kick out of his nuanced dietary strategy that takes so long to describe. It would never fit on a book cover, but I think it’s pretty much the top of the heap and it’s been very, uh, well considered tried and tested, and he gives some good recommendations for everyone.
And I think it’s important to mention the, the workout that we did prior to the podcast was pretty rough. And this guy is an extreme fitness specimen. He’s one of those hybrid type athletes where he’s highly accomplished with his strength and power in the gym, but he’s also doing some really, difficult endurance goals outside. And so I think it’s important to mention, because today we wonder what these high profile people are like in real life. Are they just posing? Are they doing the airbrushing and the photoshopping? But this guy works hard and he walks his talk and like few others. So with that, we are ready to sit down with Thomas DeLauer. Action. I got the man right here, the YouTube sensation, and we are filming. So, you know, he’s gonna bring his a game. We don’t even have to prep, but guess what? We did a lot of prep this morning. First a kickass workout in the Thomas gym. Then a nice trail hike. Now we’re ready to get into it. Thank you Thomas DeLauer. It’s good to connect with you since we’re neighbors.
And we had to travel across the state to meet up since our neighborly, our neighborly interactions are minimal these days, but I look forward to those future times up in Lake Tahoe.
Well, we both literally had trees falling our houses <laugh>, so that’s why we’re displaced at the displaced at the moment. Yeah,
I think we’re gonna talk about health, fitness, peak performance, fun topic like that. But like when you cut down a bunch of trees, do other trees become vulnerable to crash into houses? The answer is apparently yes.
Yeah. I mean, the answer was like, I wasn’t home when the tree fell on my house. So did it make a sound?
Probably, yeah. And, and Marty and Mindy, our neighbors can confirm that both sounds were heard on <laugh>. Both houses were out of town. Oh my gosh. Well, you’ve had this amazing, you know, journey into the health space coming from the corporate world, and I’d love to just kind of for those of us not familiar, get into that background a little bit, especially when you hit these interesting extremes. And, you know, even now with like creating a bunch of amazing content and pursuing the extreme goals and fitness and, and health education, it’s like you’re, you’re not a, you’re not a moderation guy delivering the mail every day. You’re like, you’re going for it in life.
Dude, I actually recently filmed the video talking about just that because I think for a lot of years I, I tried to come across as such a normal person to try to like, help people that I realized I was actually doing a disservice because I was normalizing myself to try to like make sure like, Hey, I’m, I’m a normal guy. I’m a normal guy.
Just calm everything down. Yeah, well,
Which I understand has to be done. But then, you know, people would start to say things like, well, that’s just unreal. You know, like, there, there’s no way that you’re a normal guy. Just doing, I, I’m like, you know what? I have to be real. Like, I have extreme circumstances and I am a little bit of a freak and <laugh>, I guess in this stage of stage of my life where I just, I really truly just want to like be this undying authentic version of myself where I just like, it feels good to just be like, guys, like screw it. Like no, I’m kind of a weirdo. Like, like it’s not normal to do the things that I do. It’s not normal to like be obsessed the way that I’m obsessed. Yeah. And I don’t want you to be like me because the world doesn’t need more Thomas DeLauers. It would be a scary place, but take little bits of what I know and apply it to yourself and maybe you can learn from me with little things, but don’t try to be like me because it’s not a pretty road <laugh>, you know? Yeah.
And it’s also important to be, to be authentic about that because I think now we’re inundated with this messaging about how you too can level up your life and kick and, and all these things where we’re easily feel inferior if we’re not up to this high level that people are communicating. But why can’t we just pick and choose and create the path that we want where I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna take 20% from, you know, from from your deal and 4% from Ben Greenfield’s and also listen to the meditation guru who says that going to the beach and sitting there and staring at the waves is super valuable for 30 minutes while we’re crushing it on the, what’s the, what’s the terminology of the workout we did?
I think, I mean, it would, I guess, classify under a memom, you know, a metabolic condition every
Every minute on the minute
M E M O M. Yeah. And so like, you know, to, to kind of relieve the pressure of trying to live up to some standard that doesn’t feel naturally right to you. I think what you’re getting at for, for the audience. Yeah, that’s okay. <laugh>.
Well, it’s okay to have, you know, a season for everything too. Mm. Right. And like, I kind of divide my life into these macro seasons and these micro seasons and I mean, that’s periodization and it’s very nature, right? Like, it’s just look at periodization. How do you periodize your training? Do you, you know, escalate? Do you descend? You know, and, and most of that comes from an external training block. But a lot of it, like I’ve learned to listen to my body in a sense where yeah, I mean, I go, it’s okay for me to go through these phases where I really push the stressors as hard as I can, but I’ve gotten really good at also listening and, and toning it down. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and it comes from year, like I think we were talking before we were filming, and I’ve talked about this in other podcasts before. Like I ran my first 10 K when I was I believe six <laugh>. Um,
It wasn’t fast. Ran six miles at six.
I mean, it wasn’t, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m gonna do one mile for every year that I am turning. No, yeah. But it is, you know, it wasn’t fast or anything. But my point was, you know, I, I started running at a young age. My mom was a runner and that was how we spent time with mom. Mm. Was like, if we wanted to hang out with mom, mom was running. So she was like, uh, hey guys, like no other choice. I’m not gonna push you in a stroller. You’re too big so you’re gonna run. You know, and mom was a badass, like serious badass with that. And she was fast and like, she pushed us hard. My sister and I, both my sister’s four years older, my sister went on to be a professional triathlete. You know, it was just like, anyhow, the point is, is like I ended up running my first marathon when I was 11 and I ran a number of marathons in a, like I can’t even count how many half marathons before I was like 16.
And I’m not saying that to toot my horn. I guess in some ways I am cuz it’s impressive. I understand now. But I also say that because now having kids of my own, I can’t imagine like asking them to do that with me. Yeah. I mean, if they were electively being like, yeah, I wanna run this much, I would probably say, no, why you, you shouldn’t. Yeah. But I developed a lot of interesting obsessive tendencies and running became a coping mechanism for me. And as I reverse engineered my childhood and kind of understood the obsessive compulsiveness that I had, I used to have to, you know, hop on one foot X number of times, light flip, light switch X numbers of times to make sure my mom didn’t die. That was like my biggest thing. I always thought my mom was gonna die and running was like this way that I could just be at peace.
Like I was just cold would calm my brain, my overactive brain, you know? So I had these extremes. And then in high school dealing with eating disorders and being super, super skinny and, you know, anorexic and pulling my hair out at one point in my, you know, when I was in middle school, so I had big bald spots everywhere. So I was always poked fun of, it was just bizarre. Right. And when you look at, and I used to, I blocked a lot of that out of my current life thinking about it because I’m like, I don’t want to be driven or shaped by my past. I don’t really think about where I am today. But the fortunate thing with what I do for a living now is I’ve been fortunate enough to talk with a lot of high performers. You know, people like you, people like Mark, people like people that have achieved a lot in their athletic careers.
And I’ve realized that more often than not, they usually come from, not necessarily similar but strange times of adversity. Mm-hmm. Weird things they had to overcome. And athletics either became a coping mechanism, uh, a masochistic type thing. Some way to inflict pain in a way that they could control. Very similar stories across the board. And I’m like, ah, okay. I’m not as fd up as I thought there are other people that have had, you know, and it kind of shapes the way to do this. Flash forward to when I was like 19, 20, you know, I went through a period of my time of time when I was in high school. I was independent studies. It was like a version of homeschool except I was still part of the school so I could still participate in school sports. So I ran cross country track and played rugby.
Rugby was a club sport. But anyhow, so it was great cuz I would have like some elective classes on campus, but for the most part I was homeschooled. And I was homeschooled because I was helping my mom out because she was dealing with a lot of, you know, legal stuff and some sexual abuse and some other stuff that happened. Long story long, I was working full-time to help support my mom, help support my family while going to school. So my entire high school period was not a normal high school period. It was spent either focusing on sports and work or, you know, that was really much it, like, it was just working a lot. So by the time I was like 19, 20, I was trying to bulk up. I was playing rugby, I really enjoyed rugby. I played, excuse me, I played winger.
So I was always the faster guy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a guy, you know, in the outside. But I wanted to get bigger cuz I, I broke a few ribs playing rugby cuz I was pretty small and I’m like, I gotta get bigger. Gotta get bigger. So I went through a couple years where I really just tried to put on mass and I wanted to get bigger and I did kind of fall in love with bodybuilding to a certain degree. But with that came kind of force feeding myself for a while. And then to a point where flash forward, get into, you know, more of a c corporate setting. I was in a commission only job for a while and I’m glazing over a lot of detail to just get to the point I ended up at, you know, close to 300 pounds at my heaviest because I was still eating like I was bulking mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but wasn’t really even training anymore. <laugh>, I was just stressed out trying to make money with a commission only job and I could analyze it until I’m blue in the face, like why I did it. But it’s, it’s wild. So I went from one extreme to a complete other extreme.
And I guess there’s an act of rebellion I guess because it sounds like you were forced to grow up quickly and had, you know, sort of this, maybe, out of balance pushing and challenging yourself to run a marathon at age 11. And I guess the, you know, the counterbalance to that would be to sit around and deliberately eat too much and disregard your health. That was taken to such extreme that was perhaps unhealthy before. So maybe your, you know, the opponent process reaction, Dr. Anna Lembke, Dopamine Nation, like we, we always go on flip the, flip the seesaw. And I don’t know if that was part of it, but,
Yeah, it definitely feels like it, it is like in retrospect it does. Like I can’t help but think that it was some element of self-sabotage. You know? Like I guess someone that is seemingly healthy and was athletic for them to completely flip it like that and not even recognize it as wrong <laugh>. Like, I’m not, so, I mean, it’s like I had to have known this was not a healthy way to go. Right? Sure. I mean, I gained over a hundred pounds in like a year and a half. Like I just blew up.
And do you do that from eating shit food? I mean, you can’t overeat natural nutritious meals and do that.
Yeah, I wasn’t doing that on, you know, fruit and chicken breast. No. It was like, I’ve talked about a lot, probably people have probably heard it, but, you know, my Jack-in-the-Box taco addiction, like that was like my jam. It was like, you know, six to eight Jack-in-the-Box tacos, you had ’em two for 99 cents and that was just like, that was something that was my post-workout when I was running. And it was something that was my pre-game when I was just overweight, you know, <laugh>. So it’s a, it’s like a recurring, so people joke with me about it and be like, if you see Thomas in like a Jack-in-the-Box drive through, you know, you know, he’s resorting back to old habits.
Maybe a new sponsor for your channel.
That would be awesome.
Jack-in-the-Box and ButcherBox both Supply, 20% discount with this code. No,
No. I’m gonna do that just to mess with people and see what they do.
Jack-in-the butcher box. Oops. Excuse me. Yeah. Uh, so how you, you took a very short time and just started piling on this weight and I mean, what was the thought process?
I just wanted to focus on making money and career. Yeah, yeah. You know, that was really it. So it was like, I was still eating like I was training Yeah. And focusing more on, you know, it was commission only at the time. So for me it was like, I had to be pretty focused. I was pretty stressed. I was drinking like eight monster energy drinks a day, Uhhuh, it was just ridiculous. Like, I was getting like, what is that, like 600 milligrams of caffeine or more than that, 600 to 800 milligrams of caffeine depending on which one you get. Yeah. So it was just unreal, just tremendously unhealthy. But I was made of rubber and magic as Chris Williamson would say. You know, you don’t really think about that stuff. So,
So I guess it was kind of a, a creeping, it’s not the front of your awareness, the front of your awareness is the job, and then you kind of wake up one day and see that you’re maybe 50 pounds over, you need a new suit, or like how does that work?
Yeah, I mean, fortunately enough I was never in a situation except for a couple spots where I was having to like suit it and boot it or, you know, really be black tie. So, you know, I knew it was definitely not like this thing where, oh my gosh, my clothes don’t fit anymore. Mm-hmm. You know, for me, for the first six months or so, I always liken it to that episode of South Park with like Eric Cartman and Beefcake. You know, remember that episode where
He’s like, I don’t know if I know the exact episode
. Okay. So basically he’s, he’s trying to bulk up. So he buys weight gainer 5,000 <laugh>. And he just like, just becomes morbidly obese Uhhuh. He’s just like, I’m, I’m jacked. I’m so jacked. And he’s so, he is just like piling these like 10,000 calorie drinks together, uhhuh. And he’s just like, I’m gonna get yoked. And he just so true to life. Jesus. And that was me. I was just like, I’m buff and like, you know, I, and I mean granted, like I put on muscle, don’t get me wrong. Like, I mean between like around my, like my senior year, I still put on like good amount of muscle. Cause I was trying to, and then, and then after that it was like, it what was five days a week of resistance training turned to three, turned to two, turned to one, turned to hopping in the gym when I could, but still eating like that. Yeah. And it just became, you know, no, my, my focus was very myopic on making money. And that,
Uh, and then you hit a breaking point or something, I suppose with your, your physical health as well as your career path.
Yeah. So I was definitely diagnosed type two diabetic that, that happened quick,
So. Wow. So you turned yourself into a diabetic in two years thanks to Jack-in-the-Box. Oh shoot. We just lost a potential sponsor. Dang it. In two years. Yeah. So prior to that, you probably had excellent metabolic health as a young athlete.
I mean, I never really checked it. Right? Yeah. So, I mean, could I, I mean, arguably could I have been type two diabetic when I was thin? I guess it’s possible, but I doubt it. You know, so my fasting glucose was 144 when I was, you know, super overweight. So I remember them giving me the talk, giving me the whole like, spiel the speech on mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you’re diabetic, you know, to avoid this. Whoa. Yeah. Look at that’s what happens.
And it’s gonna bust the lid off my,
Uh, so with that, it was just one of those, I wasn’t really my call to action. Like I didn’t really care, I guess. Just like, okay, cool. Like, so it didn’t hit No, no.
Didn’t scare the crap outta
You. Yeah. Talked about What was funny is like, I always say I was, I was almost driven by shame because what happened was I was literally at Jack-in-the-Box. I had driven through the drive-through, and I was sitting in the stall next to the drive-through and I was eating Jack-in-the-Box tacos. Like I would do like a couple times a week at least. And a buddy of mine, or an acquaintance of mine drove by, saw me eating tacos and he just waved at me. And that’s what what’s so funny about the story that I’ve talked about a lot is that it wasn’t a close friend. It wasn’t like he drove by and was like, gotcha. Mm. He drove by and was like, Hey, there’s Tom eating tacos. Cause that’s what Thomas probably does. Look at him, you know? And there was that moment where there was an element of shame and I’m just like, dude, this, this is the dude that I am.
Yeah, right. This is Thomas. Yeah. And this is what people see me as. And like the look in his face, the fact that it was so nonchalant and so just easy. That was my turning point. And people always laugh. They’re like, well, you don’t have like a crazy call to action. Like, no one told you you were gonna die. Like no, I was early twenties, like, no one was gonna tell me I was about to die. Like, they were just like, wow, what’s gonna happen to Thomas? Like, Thomas needs to do something. Remember my sister being super concerned. I remember my family just being like, dude, what do we do about Thomas? And me being like, nothing’s wrong, nothing’s wrong. Uhhuh, you know, Uhhuh just buff and, and like
Ment friend. Yeah.
So yeah. So that dude driving by like, and just was like, I think back that, that green 4runner, like, it’s just like drilled into my head that day. Wow. Just green 4runner driving by like, Hey, what’s up? Yeah. So it was at that moment I finished my tacos, but it was after I finished my tacos where I’m like, okay, this is how people see me. And I’ve always been a people pleaser, which was to my detriment, but that moment that saved my life. Like who knows where I would be if it wasn’t for that little moment where there is enough shame for me to be, make a decision that I didn’t wanna be that person anymore. So it was like pretty much the next day I started changing things, you know, I still went on for a little while, but it was, you know, really over the next month, like my entire life changed.
You just, just didn’t feel the same when you chow those tacos? No, it just wasn’t enjoyable. Gonna see me. I wonder if it, you know, exposed like this distinction between, you know, maybe deep down you had this identity as an athlete and there you were living incongruent with it. And so that, that that drive-by wave at the person maybe inside is screaming out, wait, wait, I’m an exceptional long distance endurance athlete and rugby player. You don’t understand. I’m just covered up with, you know, all these layers. And you know, James Clear talks about that Atomic Habits, like when you, when you wanna change something, you, you form that identity and call yourself a healthy fit person and that will help you align with the goal rather than just saying, I gotta exercise more. Yeah. You have to own the identity. And it sounds like the identity was formed in younger years and you just kind of went off track. You just had to turn the wheel back.
Yeah. I think that’s a good, good explanation. I mean, there was,
as we go deeper into the
<laugh>Well my identity was wrapped up in being an athlete from the time I was, you know, right. Earlier than six. Right. I didn’t get mom’s love unless I was an athlete. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So for me, not only living incongruent with my actual self or my authentic self as like an inherent athlete mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Living incongruently with what would actually achieve love and affection and validation for me. I was like a rogue. Right. So it was like, yeah. And I felt rebellion and I felt rogue out of that. And that was empowering mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a young man mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that’s completely something that would just break you as you get older. You can only sustain that for so long. It’s like, I’m doing this in spite subconscious.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I mean it’s, I think it’s an important recalibration because it is a lousy way to receive love, attention, connection, you know, know. It’s, it’s like a, someone driving around with expensive, consumption and toys to get that attention. It’s kind of a way to get attention. It’s not real. And so maybe
Like my rent, my, my rental Mercedes that’s out in the Yeah, yeah. Parking lot right
Now. Slick, you know,
Um, not my 250,000 mile truck with a smashed windshield that I normally drive
<laugh>. So, you know, you had, this was, um, kind of a, you know, less than optimal way to receive love and support. Then you had to throw the, you know, throw the shit into the fan and say, forget that now that that’s outta your system. I guess that was associated with the drive by like, okay, I’m, I’m done playing this game too or something and now you’re gonna come back to a healthy middle ground.
Yeah. I mean, and you know, can we ask the same question about what I do for a living now? Like, am I, am I repeating a cycle in a different category? Right?
Well, think about it. I mean, like, I asked myself this, this is somewhat rhetorical, but I mean like, let’s, I don’t seek attention from what I, what I do, but am I subconsciously like, do I just wanna like pump out content and do this because like, is this just, this is just, am I gonna live a life of repeating this cycle in different directions? Yeah. And that’s where the inner work really needs to be done. And that’s where I’m trying to work is like, what is the core of my being and what is my true authentic self? And what are these coping mechanisms? My coping mechanisms always come back to extremes.
And you, you can only have a couple of extremes, arguably just one extreme cuz there’s only enough time. Right. <laugh>, he and like he’s
Extreme in every way. Wait, excuse me. It’s like, doesn’t make sense. Yeah.
When I was like overweight, it was, I was addicted to benzos too. Like I was popping Xanax and Valium and it was like, like, like freaking Skittles man. And it was so bad and it was like extreme again. Like, am I trying to numb pain? Am I trying to like, I don’t know what is this? And I’ve always joked that if I wasn’t into athletics, I probably would’ve gotten into drugs. Uhhuh <affirmative> because, and I’m sure, and I’ve talked to a lot of athletes that are the same way. They’re like, no. Oh yeah. And they’re safe to say like, this is my addiction and that’s where I have big problems with some of what is this common theme that’s out there that’s saying you shouldn’t be addicted to your exercise. You shouldn’t be a, like I get it. But unless you fix the root problem that addiction is a much better addiction than what their alternative addiction would be.
Yeah. So be careful what you tell people. Yeah. Because people that are not athletes and not athletic minded can’t relate to that because they haven’t been there. So they’re like, you’re addicted. That’s sick, that’s sick that you do that. That’s sick that you run yourself into the ground like that. Yeah. Well hey, if I wasn’t doing this, like, I don’t know if this can just get neutralized without a lot of years of work, so don’t tell me to just stop doing something that is actually a much better alternative than me popping five milligrams of Xanax per day. Mm-hmm. You know, you get what I’m saying? Oh
Sure. Yeah. And I think we’re, we’re all on that path to enlightenment. And I can reference like my time as, you know, an elite, a high training athlete. That was my, you know, life and death every day. And it, you know, it certainly was better for me to evolve to the next level of I’m completely, uh, immersed in the process of personal growth. And I, I have not attached my self-esteem to the outcome, but I can’t start there cuz at first I want to get recognized by the girls in high school. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so I’m running my, around myself around the track in circles until I puke. Of course, I I, it was doing it for egotistical and superficial reasons. And then you can climb the staircase, climb the staircase again and, and, you know, explore deeper meaning in your fitness pursuits rather than looking good.
But at first, if you just wanna look good, welcome to the gym and let’s get some work done. You know, and that, I think that’s kind of, it’s nice to think about climbing those staircases. Cause I think the greatest athletes, a lot of ’em are messed up and imbalanced. And there’s a lot of talk about Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, tiger Woods going, you know, not necessarily wanting to repeat those paths, but I like to look for examples of people like, uh, Kipchoge the great, uh, Kenyan marathoner, the greatest runner of all time long distance runner. And his quotes, if you look on Google Kipchoge quotes, he is such a wise man and he comes up with these aphorisms that are just, it shows that you can perform at the highest level ever and be really evolved and being all about the right things that make you, you know, for a rich and meaningful life win or lose. He said, uh, uh, only the discipline ones in life are free. Otherwise you’re a slave to your whims and passions. Okay. How did you figure that one out? Dude, that’s beautiful. You know, and he figured it out by running 130 miles per week at high altitude and crushing the competition in 16 major marathons. He’s 15 and two or something like that. But yeah, it, it’s, it takes a long time to get there. So don’t, don’t knock people who are somewhere along the way on the journey. Yeah,
Yeah. Well it’s very, you know, that sometimes it’s just a, again, there’s a season for everything and like you look at the you could easily take a look at the divorced male, right? A a 45, 50 year old divorced male that goes through a pretty aggressive existential crisis because his entire life has been flipped upside down. And like a lot of times those guys go one of two routes. They go into the drug partying route. Mm. Or they go hardcore into their fitness. And I see it from my perspective as sort of what I call the peanut gallery with my, with my channel. Right? Like I see a large body of people and I hear it all and I see that happen, you know, with a largely male audience on YouTube. I see that cuz a lot of that middle aged. I just gotta get myself in action.
I gotta take care of myself. I get myself in shape and a small percentage of them do it healthy. A large percentage go to the extreme, but it’s keeping them from going out and slamming alcohol and doing other things. And I’m like, we gotta be careful how we talk to this because like athletics as a, as a tool and even sometimes an extreme tool, which I think we need to understand how to modulate that, but it could be what saves people’s lives too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So again, I’m not saying it’s the right way, I’m just saying that people need to be careful to shit on that too much mm-hmm. <affirmative> because like, how someone’s coping is how someone’s coping. And they don’t need rescuing if they’re running 80 miles a week, I mean,
they’re gonna figure it out. They’re gonna figure it out that that maybe isn’t
Sustainable or eating like a freak or, you know, fill in the example. There’s so many different, you know, biohacking their brains out, um, to the, to the, um, the consternation of their neighbors. Like it’s all, it’s all good man.
Sorry, Marty and Mindy. Yeah.
<laugh>. Um, so you, um, you had the Pathfinder drive by and then the recalibration started the forerunner, excuse me, lost another sponsor by Misidentifying the car. Nissan. Nissan. And so how did that work? You said you, you, you still, uh, went back to Taco Bell a little bit, didn’t taste quite as fantastic on Jack-in-the-Box
Jack-in-the-Box and then went off to,
I went to Jack-in-the-Box one more time after that. Well, I mean I’ve been back since like to get a nice tea and stuff like that. Take
Pictures, uh, <laugh> film a video outside. Yeah. I need to like Paul Saldino crashing all the different stores. Yeah. Oh, Paul. Paul. Um, so wasn’t an extreme recalibration where all of a sudden you started slamming across. So
What it was, you know, was I actually took some time and I did what I knew best for a little bit, uh, for a couple of months I went to. Okay. That’s funny. It’s funny story table that, cuz that does come into the equation the running. But no, I, I went back to like eating like six, seven meals per day trying to like, trying to weigh out my food and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. And honestly it didn’t work for me anymore. Something was going on. Like it really wasn’t working. Uh, a because every time that I would put food in my mouth I wanted to eat more. So the more opportunities I had to eat at that metabolically deranged state or actually was actually catastrophic for me. Yeah. And there were two00:30:23] docs that I worked with in, in my world in the corporate healthcare world.
So we were an, at the time ancillary lab services company. So what we really did is we provided, uh, like cortisol testing, salivary testing, early mRNA stuff, uh, two different private practices. So I was a salesperson. I was, uh, so my role was really selling biotech stuff, selling like early lab tests. So anyway, point is we had a slew of doctors, right? So all these different docs, there are a few of them that were really close friends and two of them particular were like, you know, like there’s this thing called intermittent fasting that like we’ve had success with a lot of patients with and you know, it sounds like it might just be something that works for you. And it wasn’t like a push, it was like, these are dudes that had patients that were diabetic that that did it. And this was before it was ever trendy.
Like, uh, so it was like, I’ll try it dude. The weight fell off with it. And like I, that’s the thing is like I can’t, I can’t make that up. Like it’s just, I did do other things and the weight just fell off with it. And I don’t think it’s because it was magical. I think it’s cuz it worked with the hard wiring of my operating system. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I was a very black and white type on off person. Yeah. So for me, it worked for me because it was like, I, I didn’t give two craps about the longevity aspect or anything. For me it was like black, white eating, not eating, eating, not eating. And for me to go like 16, 18 hours, just not eating wasn’t all that hard. And just by default I wasn’t able to eat as much during my day.
So I lost a lot of weight. I lost like, you know, 50 pounds in the first two and a half months or so, like three months. Yeah. So it was like, or just about three months. So it was pretty, pretty aggressive and then it slowed down after that. So, and then I, you know, I got to a point, I was doing it every day. I was doing it too much. Don’t get me wrong, I was fasting too much, but in retrospect at the time I was like, but then again, it’s like you look at the data and losing weight fast versus losing weight slow. Like really no real difference as long as you are taking into account what happens to your metabolic rate and your lean body mass. Um, I had a decent amount of lean body mass cuz I did my Eric Cartman bulk before. So I mean I had muscle. Yeah. You know, I worked really hard at a heavy weight. So by the time I, but yeah, then it brings us into the running thing that you mentioned. Yeah. I remember being like, you know, probably 260, maybe 270 and just like being like, well it, I’m gonna go out for a run.
Where are them running shoes in the closet? Give me those running shoes.
I remember schleping my way through six miles. Ooh. And I just did it. I mean, I did it, it was ugly. You
Rashed out on your thighs? No, I wasn’t
Rashed out. No. I just hurt. I remember my feet hurting, you know, like I never like been God Yeah. But I didn’t, it wasn’t as bad as you would’ve thought, but it probably looked hilarious. Like I looked like a middle lineman just like, yeah, what is that guy doing? And he just kept going because that was the one thing I knew, you know? Yeah. So I got, I did go back to running, but you know, it hurt too much to keep going. But the point is, is that it did come back <laugh>,
How do you lose 50 pounds in three months? Are we talking about 10 or 15 pounds of inflammation, water retention or something? I mean we gotta,
Yeah, we gotta, we gotta be real here. Like how much of that was water? You know? And a lot of times when people start fasting, it’s not uncommon for them to lose, you know, 10 pounds of water pretty quick.
So an obese person who’s, you know, going onto their protocol, um, generally they’re, they’re walking around with way more water fluid retention than someone who’s fit and healthy. I mean, how does, how does that work? Yeah,
I mean it depends. I think people have this common like misconception that inflammation automatically just means water, you know, inflammation. Yes. That can certainly cause water to be retaned, edema, but inflammation’s really, you know, more systemic obviously inflammatory immune system response. Mm-hmm. So when you say inflammation, it’s like I almost encourage people to think of inflammation more so as like taking a taking a balloon and your normal function is it’s filled up with air. Yeah. When you’re inflamed you have the same size balloon but with twice as much air. It’s like, think of everything as tight and think of it. That’s like a good analogy to explain. It’s not like you just like become quote unquote inflamed. Yeah. There’s such a difference between acute inflammation that might happen when you, you know, cuz that’s got a whole different level of cyclo oxygenase and my hamstring just cramped from those dead levels <laugh>.
So I guess I need some water. But anyhow, the point is that, you know, inflammation’s a little bit different from what we think in terms as the mainstream. So the common person usually, like if they’re a bigger person and all of a sudden they dramatically cut calories, usually they’re just using losing glycogen too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you’ve gotta remember for every three, 3.7 grams of 3.7 grams of water for every one gram of carbohydrates. Yeah. So when you start reducing calories by default, you’re usually reducing your carbohydrates too. So, uh, my sister’s a perfect example. She just started doing keto and she was like 118 pounds and she’s down to like 107, you know, in like two weeks. I’m like, you need to like, that’s too much. Like you’re too lean at five six. Like the point is, is like she’s, I know she didn’t lose that much fat in two weeks. Right? Right. So the water, the glycogen, um,
Is it, is it is a larger person able to store more glycogen? Is it a function of total muscle mass? I mean it’s, the glycogen is stored in the muscles in the liver. Yeah. So there’s not, I mean, uh, you know, lean mean Dave Scott Ironman is storing 500 grams of glycogen, supposedly more than the average person because of training. Yeah. So
Well training can increase the rate of glycogen resynthesis, um, thereby in a shorter amount of time you can store more. Yeah. So because you gotta think of it’s, it’s as turnover, you know? Right. So there’s always a turnover with glycogen. So my theory behind this is that because yeah, it’s very interesting that a very small person with not a ton of muscle masks and still hold a lot. The question is, is like do we, does a normal person never get a chance to like fully saturate the way that, uh, a leaner person that’s training hard does, if their rate of glycogen resynthesis is higher, can they restore faster? Uh, as far as like the capability of SLU one and, and uh, and glute five and being able to pull fructose and glucose into the liver and glucose into the muscle, arguably maybe they’ll, they’re able to restore faster before turnover starts again. Whereas a regular person that’s not training can only restore so much before they’re going back to de ple again. So they’re never, they’re never uhhuh. So it’s like the rate of repletion is so much faster in an athlete that they store more. Yeah. But really they’re just repleting faster and more efficiently. That’s my theory. Um, dunno if it’s accurate or not, but it makes a lot of sense. We’ll
Test it out on some Olympic athletes of some country if they want to participate. Yeah.
But, but an overweight, to answer your question though, an overweight person, uh, typically if they’ve been overweight for a long time, they carry a fair amount of lean body mass in their legs. And you can see that with Dexus. Like when you look at morbidly obese, um, especially, you know, if they’ve been on their feet too, it’s pretty common to see a fair amount of lean body mass, like in their lower extremities. Okay.
You got that going for you. That’s
Cool. Yeah. So, which is great.
You get weight training every day. Yeah.
So it’s like then all of a sudden, you know, you drop glycogen, whatever. I mean, I just don’t really have an answer. I
Mean, you drop muscle mass, you drop glycogen. Yeah. You drop some some
Fluid retention. Yeah. And fat and it can get up to 50 pounds in, well you think three months. That’s
Amazing. That’s three months. I mean that’s not completely unrealistic. Yeah. You see that happen. Uh, and then it slowed down aggressively after that, which tells me that, yeah, there was a lot of just that initial sort of, you know, the whoosh Right. Call it the whoosh effect. Mm-hmm.
And so you still had a goal, I suppose, of no losing more. You, you were just
Kinda, I just didn’t wanna be that guy anymore. Yeah, yeah. I don’t really
Say and then start working out more I suppose and all that.
My goal when I got down to about maybe like 215 pounds or so is when I kind of joked with my wife about trying to get on some magazine covers. That’s where it all kind of started. And my wife actually was the one, I’ve always been a sort of a self-deprecating prick. Like, I always just like, I’m like really critical of myself, uhhuh and rather cynical sometimes. And I was joking with my wife about like, um, what if I could get on some magazine covers? You know, like, I, like, you know, I’ve got some good muscle underneath me. I’m not huge, but like, and she’s just like, yeah, you bet you could what? She’s like, yeah, you should go for it. And she, she was like, I bet you she’s like, I bet you you won’t do it. It was more like that. So she was like, I bet you you won’t put yourself out there to do it because I know you can. My wife has always been like eternally like hopeful and eternally optimistic for me, for herself. She’s interesting cat because she’s we’re both two very self-deprecating people that if we were like, we would just like, oh, like we’re terrible. Like we’re horrible people
Like together though. You’re awesome parents. Yeah.
Yeah. So it’s like we feed each other cuz like, I’m like, Hey babe, I suck, but you’re awesome. And she’s like, I suck but you’re awesome. Like, well great, it’s nice
Little checks and balances.
So it was like, okay, screw it. Like I’ll try. One thing that made me different branching into that world, the fitness industry was that I’m like, I’ve got a cool story, but I knew how to reach out to people. Whereas like the fitness industry is full of a bunch of people that really just didn’t know the business side if it bit them in the. Whereas like, I’m like, the ticket to getting on the cover of a magazine isn’t to like walk in there being the most ripped person. It’s to email the editors with my story <laugh>. Right. And like, so I’m like, I’m going on LinkedIn, I’m finding the editors of dang muscle and fitness and this, and I’m emailing being like, Hey, look at this. Hey, here’s my story. I lost a bunch of weight corporate guy like getting into fitness much more now here’s some before and afters, you know, and like a lot, you know, out of, I, I kept, can’t tell you how exactly how many, but let’s say out of 10, I think I know two emailed me back, two emailed back and we’re like, Hey man, like this is a first.
Like someone’s reaching out to us. Um, wow. We’ll keep you posted. If something pops up, the other
Guys are too cool to reach out. They know where I work out. They could find me there. Yeah.
Well, so no, no one was like immediately like, Hey, yes, you get a cover. Yeah. But I guess it was like another like maybe month or so later, like, uh, muscle and Performance Magazine reached out to me and they were like, Hey Robert Reed is shooting a cover or shooting? He didn’t say cover first they said is shooting for Muscle and Performance Magazine. Mm-hmm. Uh, the person that was gonna be shooting with him had to cancel. Uh, are you interested?
And the Stars align.
I’m like, yeah, hell yeah. And I remember like my dad was, uh, pretty close to dying at this point of cancer and I remember calling him and like talking to him, being like, dad, like I’m getting my first, you know, like magazine shoot. And my dad was in the publishing business. Uh, so like he was just like super proud from like a book, book and magazine aspect. This is cool for him. And then I show up there and Robert Reed, super cool dude, very well known photographer in the fitness industry. Super esteemed. Like, he’s like one of the go-to him and Para now are like the two that shoot almost all the covers. I’m like, Hey Mr. Reed, nice to meet you. He goes, Hey man, you look great. Don’t wanna like shock you or anything but we’re shooting the cover. And I was like, whoa.
I was like, cool, cool. And I was, and he’s like, man, your story’s awesome. He’s like, I heard about your story. This is awesome. And we was like, so we shot the feature and then shot the cover and uh, yeah man, like, I guess, you know, a month later, so that magazine came out and then I was like, my marketing brain turned on. Mm-hmm. And I was just like, I was out of the corporate world. I had, I had taken like a little uh, exit from that cause I was sick of it. I just didn’t wanna do it anymore after I lost, started losing weight and stuff. I like, this is not the world I wanna live in. So I was actually in like a sabbatical at that point and I was like, I gotta do something with this. I was like, I’m gonna like start posting on social media with just some not really knowing what I was doing.
Um, then some, you know, social media kind of caught fire along with the mainstream media. Once that cover released, I got more covers and I ended up shooting a bunch of covers over the span of the next year. So, so with that, it was like my career kind of started as like fat corporate guy gone, gone fitness cover model. But I quickly realized that like the fitness industry and being a model is not where I wanted to live. Like I had enough business acumen to know that I was never gonna make, you wanna know how much money I made for that first cover?
800 bucks. 1,002 50. Yeah. A thousand bucks. Yeah. Yeah.
A thousand bucks. And then I shot some other covers where I got like 500. You don’t make, that’s
Usually it’s nothing. Yeah.
You don’t make money doing that. Yeah. So
The triathlon covers. I I haven’t got a check yet. Yeah.
I think they, I think they paid me cuz they felt bad.
It’s a, it’s a privilege to be on the cover. Yeah. I mean, you, you better work that for yourself. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. That’s the thing. It’s like, okay, so I, that was exactly, and that was the advice that Robert gave me. And, uh, Alex, who was the, uh, editor in chief at the time for Muscle and Performance was like, you’re a smart guy, just so you know, like leverage this. Yeah. Your job is to leverage this. Yeah. And I was like, well, I know what I’m good at. I was like, I have a biochemistry background with what I did. And uh, I was like, I can talk about my transformation, lemme talk about what I did. So like I started posting those pictures, talking about it. I wrote a little crappy PDF ebook and um, man, that thing we like pedalled some random Facebook traffic at it just because it was back in the day 2014 15 when Facebook traffic actually you could, it was actually affordable, you know, uhhuh <affirmative> and like, so I’m like, I’m just gonna test it out and like, it was profitable on day one just with an ebook of my, what I did.
Yeah. Like, it was my story and what I did. And it was like a natural process. From there I started kind of doing some, uh, like little videos, selfie videos being like explaining like, Hey, here’s why I I did this. Yeah. And a lot of people were commenting me like, you’re really good at explaining this stuff. You’re really good at explaining it. Okay, cool. So I started filming some videos, had my wife set, set up the camera on a little tripod, put ’em up in, uh, on YouTube and they were getting traction and the rest is kind of history. And from there I was like, I’m, I’ve actually got something here. Like, what I’m good at is explaining stuff and explain, and I think, I think people can resonate with my story. And that was it.
So on the day of this cover shoot, I have this maybe a flawed notion about the bodybuilding scene where you show up to the studio dehydrated for 36 hours, uh, or you’ve, you’ve jammed in a bunch of glucose to blow up your veins. Or like, what’s, what’s behind that? Like, how different do you, do you look on a day-to-day basis versus cover day?
That’s a good question. So this first cover, I mean,
I saw you this morning. He, he looks the same all the time and he’s a legitimate performer. So it’s not like, you know, it’s, it’s not faked in that way, but is it embellished or there’s, it’s Photoshop coming in. It’s after the,
It’s embellished. Um, you know, for the sake, like it is, and I know for the sake it’s like, we have one camera up right now, but like, I’ll show if you can see, like, you know, I’ve got these big ugly stretch marks right from when I was overweight. Oh. And I remember them being like, yeah, we’re gonna have to, we’re gonna have to airbrush you, we have to get rid of those. And I was kind of like, even even me at that stage was still sort of like, why just leave them? You know? Yeah. Don’t do it. Like, why? You know? I just didn’t care. Yeah. And they’re like, well, you gotta understand this is the fitness industry. I’m like, well, it like, this is Jesus. Come on. People that are picking these up or people that like wanna look just like you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s like, I thought something was kind of wrong with that.
Honestly, fundamentally, like I understood from a business perspective, I was like, yeah, you wanna craft the perfect physique, but that’s exactly what was wrong. And I was just like, that’s annoying. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I remember, uh, I’m not gonna say his name, but his first name starts with P and his last name ends starts with L. And anyone that maybe, maybe will know him, I don’t know, um, wouldn’t photograph me because he’s like, too much work in admin, too much work in Photoshop. Like I’ll be, he’s too much work in Photoshop. And I’m just like, what the guys? Like, like I worked my off. And I’m like, so anyway, that first shoot, I didn’t really know what I was doing a whole lot. I knew how to prep. And I remember like, um, you know, I knew how to kind of cut water a little bit.
Yeah. Um, I played, I I’d wrestled a little bit. Oh, right, yeah. Uh, so I understood how to cut water. So I did some of that dehydrated myself. But it’s funny cuz if you look at like, the pictures of like my first cover to like, my last cover Intel, like I was a lot softer. Like I didn’t, you know, my first cover. But then shooting back to back to back covers over the course of the year. Not gonna lie. Like for some of those covers, like I’m lean, people that know me know that I stay like sub six-ish percent year round. But yeah, I, I did have to kind of abuse diuretics a little bit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s something that I say abuse because I think any use of them outside of a clinical use is abuse. Like, it’s not like I was pounding them.
Yeah. But like to prep for shoots, I would pop a couple dires, I would pop some Diaz side to drop the water for a shoot. And so people should know that. Like when you look at a magazine cover, those guys are legitimately work hard. It’s not like you, you can’t diuretic your way out of fat. Yeah. Like, but you can dire, you know, you gotta get dry. Yeah. And I don’t recommend doing it because I think my kidneys pay a price for it. Mm-hmm. It’s not healthy stuff. But when you’re going back to back cover shoots like that, like it’s the only way that you can perform and you show up to a shoot and you’re not, it’s all the things that sort of wrong and I’m just being real here. Like, I, not that I’m proud of taking diuretics with that. Yeah. But
Just on grand scheme, as we talked about earlier, you know, with the, the massive corporate corruption and all these problems in life. And then we’re, we’re, we’re spending all our time and energy criticizing Liver King for not telling everybody about his PED use. Come on. You know, like of course there’s gonna be optimizations involved in, in a Hollywood type of scene, you know? Yeah.
Dude, it’s, it’s, you know, you know, so you’d sodium deplete and then you’d sodium reload right. Before typical bodybuilding type prep stuff, you know, very similar stuff body builders would do. Except, you know, there was a period there I think for like two months where I was filming or shooting either a, uh, a magazine feature or a cover every week for like eight weeks. You can’t maintain that level of no sodium de
Right. So you, you’ve just, you just have no choice. But you gotta pop a diuretic, you gotta drop the water. Cuz every time you take a diuretic or every time you sodium deplete and replete, you rebound. So like after a, so even if diuretics aside, if I were to cut sodium two days prior and then reintroduce sodium the night before to draw water in a hydrophilic state into, you know, the muscle to fill back up, you’d still remain dry. But then what happens is the next day you rebound really bad in sodium. So you puffy, you get real puffy uhhuh. And which again, by most standards you’d look great, but you would be like, not photo, not cover worthy. And so then what happens is then you retain water for three, four days. But if you’re shooting, then, I gotta shoot again in five days. So take another direct, drop the water. Mm-hmm. So it all becomes just a water manipulation game. And that’s what I think people need to understand that there’s no such thing that I know of as like a fitness cover shoot that doesn’t involve some kind of water manipulation. Right. Like, uh, so it’s a very unhealthy thing. And I, if I got asked to go do a cover now, I definitely wouldn’t do diuretics. Yeah. Yeah.
Just do one a year or something <laugh>
Even then, I guess just, they’re terrible. Like they’re, they’re so unhealthy. Like they’re the wor
Funny. Yeah. They’re way worse than probably a lot of other things that are demonized way more, you know, Uhhuh <affirmative>. I think it’s like the damage you can do with diuretics is very real.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so then I guess tell us about your operation a little bit. If, if people have not gone over to YouTube, they will now after watching the interview, but, um, now you have a really, uh, smooth machine in place where you’re posting up a lot of content and it’s, I guess you’re, uh, you call yourself the, uh, the interpreter of complex scientific information. Is that kind of where I
Guess so, yeah. I mean, I usually, I call myself sort of a translator. Yeah. You know, I, I’m very careful not to call myself an expert, even though, like I, I would consider myself having expert knowledge in a lot of fields. I don’t really wanna be people’s expert. I really wanna be the person that they can trust to articulate the information. And that means, uh, you know, I do talk about where I stand. Yeah. But I’m also very clear like I’m okay with having, you know, vegan experts come on my channel and let them and teach me on why they think certain things or carnivore on another side. And I just be like, okay, well here’s what I do because I know what makes me perform well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, you know, people naturally will probably wanna gravitate towards what I do cuz they say, oh, you look good, you perform good. Like clearly what you’re doing is working okay. Sure. But I’m not gonna call my way the expert way. That’s not just the way I roll. But yeah, I’ve got a pretty smooth machine where I, you know, know how to produce content, know how to curate it properly and, uh, you know, have built a really nice team that allows us to do it efficiently.
I think, you know, as far as expertise and credibility, being able to complete that 21 minute workout with that amount of weight on the bar and, and do all the, the fitness endeavors that you do, I think is, um, it probably needs to be, um, respected and appreciated more these days as we see this trend of kind of science taking over and snuffing out peak performance. Yeah. And so coming, coming, my only expertise is as a, a athletic background. So I, I was expert at beating other guys in the race, but I don’t have a scientific degree on whatever, but whatever the top athletes are doing are working by definition, if you care about performance standard. And so if you’re living and breathing this extremely fit lifestyle that is a form of expertise that I believe is equal to or greater than someone who’s got a PhD in, um, you know, exercise physiology or what have you. Yeah.
I mean, I would agree. And we also have to remember that most of the time when someone has a PhD, it’s in a exceptionally narrow scope. Mm. And most reputable people in the academic world are very open about that. They’re like, like, you know, okay, I’m an expert in P B A R alpha and nuclear receptor proteins and how a fatty acid will affect, uh, nuclear receptor proteins to ultimately make this cell mitochondria use, utilize fat more efficiently. Like the most narrow thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they’ll be the first to tell you Oh. But if you ask me to talk to another human Yeah. Or you ask me to talk to a girl, it’s never gonna happen. Yeah. So a lot of times they have very little social and they’re very open about, they joke about that. Right. Yeah. Like in the, but the, the point is, is that they’re not typically experts in like the full spectrum, right?
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And very seldom do you find those that put in the work too. You know, as far as like athletically, uh, you know, it’s, it’s, you can, you can really, you know, the few of them, there’s not a lot of ’em. I, I mean I, you know, I do like Andrew Huberman really does put in work mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I’ve seen him work, I’ve seen him work hard, you know, it’s like he actually does bust his ass. Uh, it’s like, so, I mean, and say what you want about him, whether you like him or not. Like I just, I, I acknowledge people that work hard. Jim st. Another PhD that works hard. Yeah. Layne Norton, whether you like him or not, the dude works
Hard. Dagostino. Yep. Mark Bell, Mark Sisson, um, Peter Attia swam from Catalina to shore. Yeah. So if you don’t agree with his scientific point of view, the MOFO still swam from Catalina to shore. You know, and that’s, that’s huge credibility. Yeah. To me,
I think that we need to, we can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. You know? Like we live in this world where we just wanna, um, optimize, optimize, optimize. So everyone wants to say like, well, who’s giving me the coolest information that I can use to optimize myself? And be careful who you listen to. Like, you know, because like, and I will say like, steroids are not with some of these people. I wish that there was just more transparency with it in some ways. But a lot of them, like they, those, a lot of those still work hard. So still respect them within their right. But just understand that there’s different, there’s different layers and that’s just a completely different discussion. But the point is, is that listen to people that really do walk the walk, that’s the bottom line. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and walk the walk means being transparent. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it means actually doing the work. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it means sharing the information with like true compassion and true desire to help rather than tooting your own horn.
Ooh. That’s a three step process there. That Thomas’ high standard. I love those. I love that. Those, it’s not that high.
It’s just called being a real human. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, um, um, it’s important because we misinterpret so much stuff, especially the general public Barry Bonds. Oh, he cheated. And Babe Ruth was better because he took steroids. He hit 73 home runs out of the ballpark. Do you wanna stand in front of a pitching machine of a hundred mile per hour pitch and try to hit it? It’s like he’s an amazing athlete. Lance Armstrong’s one of the greatest endurance athletes of all time, the greatest cycles of all time. And he beat 198 guys who were doped off their ass on the same stuff as he. Yeah. And I think that’s important to put out there. You get me going on this subject cuz it’s super interesting and we’ll talk more about where, you know, the different nuances. But I’ll, I’ll mention in Lance’s case, like if the sport were clean, if cycling were clean, he would’ve won by 20 minutes. Cuz he was a genetically superior and trained harder and was more focused and had a better team. Instead of winning by two minutes or three minutes or seven minutes, he would’ve destroyed everybody. But I think doping levels the playing field for those who don’t have the genetic particulars that might make them rip city the first day they walk in the gym and so forth.
That’s No, it’s a solid point. I, I mean definitely with, with that, especially in endurance world, like the, you know, use of E P O and the use of like, all of that is like, I think people have a misunderstanding of specifically how that works. Like E P O is a great example of just that really is just leveling the playing field. Cause that’s something that genetically you’re gonna be predisposed to being able to have better oxygen carrying capacity or not. There’s a certain level of genetics that comes into that and Yeah.
The Sherpas in Nepal Yeah. Have, have hematocrit 58 and all set.
Yeah. Dude. So it’s, it’s a wa it’s an interesting one. And it’s, it’s difficult because I think deep down people just want to feel like people are being authentic. Yeah. And they feel they, they take it personally. They feel really hurt when they find out. And you gotta, they also feel like, they feel like they’ve been lied to and it puts them on a mm-hmm. <affirmative> so
Puts ’em on lawsuit in Liver King’s case Yeah. And whatnot. And so it’s, yeah.
It’s just tough because like, there’s not an understanding of how that works in the, in the world of professional sports. And certain people get, um, put on a, you know, put on blast while, and it makes it sound like, you know, not everyone’s doing it. Where in the world of like cycling
Blast put on blast.
Well, and like with, with body building and stuff, that world is weird because like, it’s like it expected, but, but still taboo, you know, in that world. Yeah. Uh, with cycling, I think there’s a lot of people that still believe only a small percentage of people ever blood dope or do, and it’s like, hmm. I mean, you know better than me. It’s probably a lot. Right.
I guess nobody knows. And, um, even now, like when I see the performances in triathlon, which is widely, um, you know, considered to be a clean sport, and this one guy got busted who was winning some good races and the, the the amount of savagery from his peers, from the top triathletes on social media, it was really, um, compelling to me. Because if you’re cheating and trying to get away with it, you’re not gonna blast the guy who cheated so badly. Yeah. And flame him. So it makes me think Lionel Sanders wrote this thing, like, this was in my room, I we trained together. Was he shooting up? Was he breaking the law in my house? You know, like, yeah. That guy now seems to me, I, I I feel like, um, they possibly are clean and they’re just, you know, a guy who cheats in a clean sport or a girl. That’s the biggest disgrace I’ve, I’ve can even imagine, especially in athletics where it’s so raw and pure and honest. But if you’re reading Tyler Hamilton’s book about the cycling scene, you know, he talks about how they’re compelled to cheat or go home. You have two, you have three choices, cheat and compete, go home or race clean, get your ass kicked and and moan all day for no one listening. And you’re a poor sport because, oh, I’m losing to these guys. They’re all doping. It’s a bad Yeah. It’s a really bad scene. It’s,
It’s a cycle. Bad cycle. Yeah. And, well, I guess that’s what I mean by with the body building world, it’s so, that world is so weird because there’s nothing like, there’s, it’s a very subjective sport anyway. Like you’re based upon like, okay, your biceps look a certain way. And like, I guess in that sport it’s like in bodybuilding, who really cares if they’re doing it. Like, it’s just like they’re all gonna do it to try to grow their quads and do whatever. It’s a completely different world. And then how it’s, I think that’s why there’s such an outrage when it happens in sports because it’s like, okay, well, although some of these scores are in these, at least in baseball can be somewhat arbitrary, but with like, something like cycling or something like triathlon, it’s the clock, dude. Yeah. It’s, it’s the one dynamic that everybody, whether they are familiar with the sport or not, is gonna understand that it’s a race to beat the clock, right?
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you, it’s A plus B equals C, and if you have a supercharger in there and someone else doesn’t, that’s just not fair. Um, and that makes you be like, that is flat out cheating. So then it’s like these blinds get so blurred with like the aesthetic world and the performance world mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it’s just a, it’s an odd situation. And you know, I’m glad that we live in a world where people ask questions about it. Like, I feel like people should ask questions. Um, you know, but I think people also need to have like a peek into the, like, not everyone, us in the athletic world, like we know this stuff goes on, people that aren’t in our world, they see it and it’s just like, oh my god. Yeah.
The media helps with the, you know, the congressman grandstanding and pulling the baseball players into congressional, you know, hearing and all that. It was all grandstanding. Like, what do you guys care about any of this? Why don’t you go, you know, and make the world a safer place or something. Yeah. But in general, uh, every day use now it seems like hormone replacement whatever you wanna call it, performance enhancing drugs are, are filtering into mainstream use now. And I wonder kind of some of your thoughts and reflections on that, uh, from, from the different sides of the coin.
I feel like there’s a normalization of steroids that’s a little bit scary.
You know, because you look at like, the way it is on YouTube and like people just openly talk and almost educate on it. So I don’t know where I stand. It’s like, if you’ve got young, curious, you know, men specifically that are like, I want to get bigger, faster, stronger. Is it, is it better for them to learn it and understand what’s going on if they’re gonna try it anyway? Like if those people that are curious enough to watch those videos mm-hmm. <affirmative> and learn, is it better that they learn? I mean this is, I don’t know, I, like, I I ask myself, is it better that they learn so they do it right and don’t hurt themselves? Or is it glorifying it? I’m inclined to think it’s actually glorifying it because sometimes I think it’s some level of validation that they need to be like, I’m gonna be just fine.
Yeah. It’s, it’s not quite the same as sex education, which you might argue, or maybe most listeners would argue, it’s probably better to educate your kid about the, you know, the birds and the bees instead of just send them out and say, yeah, just say no, you know?
Yeah. And then well then you’ve got the case of like testosterone replacement, which I feel like is something that I don’t think anyone should be demonized if they are in a spot where they like they need it. You know, like, we’ll we’re so quick to scrutinize men that are in their forties or fifties that decide to go on TRT, but we won’t scrutinize a female that needs to go on thyroid hormone. Mm. Like you’re manipulating a thyroid hormone, which is still a hormone that drives a lot of thing, a lot of things good and bad. Mm. And men are manipulating testosterone. But since testosterone is associated with muscle mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s like really bad. So we’re, but we’re talking testosterone replacement, like a guy going to a doctor mm-hmm. <affirmative> and being like, I don’t feel like I used to anymore. And I think about it from a, like a father perspective.
Like, I feel good as a dad, but if I, and my testosterone levels are like in the mid four hundreds, they’re, they’re like moderate, low to moderate mm-hmm. <affirmative> and probably just cuz I trained myself into the ground. Mm-hmm. But I’m like, if I got to a point where like I was not being the best dad that I could be mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I was not showing up for my kids and I went to the doctor, my testosterone was like 200 mm-hmm. <affirmative> repeatedly, you bet your bottom dollar, I would go on TRT mm-hmm. <affirmative> if it meant that I could be a better father and have my energy to like, maintain, I would. Absolutely. I have no qualms about doing that whatsoever. And I feel like, because like in a setting like that, the qual, I shouldn’t say no qualms whatsoever. The qualms that I do have is like, I, I don’t want to be dependent on something. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that’s what scares me is knowing the feedback loops and knowing that once you go that route, especially at a certain age, there’s no turning back. Like people, I’m, I’m sure I don’t, not an expert in that world too much, but I do feel like yeah, there’s ways that you can come back with HCG and things like that. But I think once you get to a certain age and you embark on that Yeah. That exogenous hormone is basically shutting down endogenous production. Yeah.
Get little balls.
Is that, is that the world you wanna live on? It’s hard to turn back. Do you wanna be, do you wanna be hooked on something that you can’t make in your basement? Right. <laugh>. So it’s like, if testosterone was one of those things where like, I could make it at home by, you know, brewing botanicals in my sauce pan, then I probably would’ve gone on TRT a long time ago <laugh>. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like it’s just, but the fact that I’m like, okay, if I go down this rabbit hole, then that means that I have to accept this and this is what I’m doing for the rest of my life. So I wanna make sure that I’m like holding off until I really need it. But I don’t think that we should, why should we be upset if regular Bob wants to do it? Like, I don’t, I just don’t understand why that’s a big deal and why that’s demonized. Why is it demonized if someone goes on hormone replacement to be a better human being?
Oh, it’s a great point. I feel exactly the same. And uh, like I told Liver King, guess what? You lied. It’s a bad thing. You say you’re sorry but you’re not in the Olympics. You know, like those are the athletes that need to apologize and, and pay their, pay their dues. But like you’re on YouTube, you’re on Instagram, who cares? You know? Um, but I got, I got cornered on the Power project by Mark and SMA and Andrew and they’re like, Hey Brad, why don’t you take hormone replacement? Yeah Brad, why don’t you Yeah Brad. And I’m like, I don’t know. And I think you expressed it really well where you wanna do the best you can, uh, with, you know, exhausting all natural strategies to, to live the most hormone optimized life and stress, rest balance and all those things. And so I’m continuing on that path until further notice and we’ll check back here in three years time or five years time.
Cuz when you’re doing everything you can and you’re losing your edge. And you made a good point there about testosterone. Everyone associates it with like male aggression and muscles and athletic explosiveness, but it transcends all these different areas of life. And, uh, Top Dog, the book by Ashley Merriman Po Bronson, it’s, she calls it the social status hormone because it enhances your, um, performance in every area where it’s directed. And she gives this firefighter analogy where the firetruck comes to the burning building, the guys jump out of the truck, they get their axes, they chop down the building, they grab the injured person and run out and they’re fully jacked on, you know, a male hormone peak performance. And then you go into the paramedic and they have to calmly chart down the number of ccs of drugs that are going into the IV so they can report to the hospital.
And they’re in a peak performance state that’s characterized by high testosterone. The chess masters who win the tournaments have higher testosterone than their opponents famous tests that they reference in the book. And so whatever you’re directing it toward, if you’re a drummer for the the rock band, um, it’s all associated with this focusing peak performance social status hormone. And so your dad performance and your ability to engage with long lines at Disneyland and keep your cool and all those things, it’s like the male hormone status is kind of a proxy for overall health, longevity, potential enjoyment of life.
Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. I think that there’s a lot of, you know, and where in that same note, if people are not in a good place, then that testosterone can drive ’em in a bad direction. Right? Yeah. So it’s just like, because maybe they’re, maybe they’re already an asshole. Yeah. And then all that does is just make them a bigger asshole because their focus is there. So it’s very interesting. And the case with like Liver king, it’s, you know, I I just, he wasn’t like selling his physique, so I don’t, I mean he, he created a character, you know? And I don’t think that like, it sucks. It sucks that that happened. And I was disappointed too cuz like there was a, like a part of me that wanted to be like, could he be natural? Could
He, I I I’m the most gullible guy on the planet. I was convinced he was natural. Oh really? I told power project that too. Cuz I have been to that guy’s house and he lives the most authentic and hardcore ancestral lifestyle of anybody in the cold plunge for eight minutes at 38 degrees and doing the barbarian workout and eating this incredibly impeccable diet. And I thought, who’s doing that? There’s no, you know, Matthew Frazier’s talking about his Snicker bars in between his sets, you know, he’s not like freak about his diet to take every ounce of body fat off. He’s different realm. And so I thought yeah, he looks like that cuz he’s completely freaked on every level. I didn’t know anything. Yeah. Same with Lance. I thought Lance was clean because he’s such a great athlete that I’ve known since a young age and was more talented and more driven than anyone else.
But it’s just like you said, that the very start, like it’s just kind of a boost upward from all the hard work that you’re doing to hit home runs outta the ballpark or, or set records in on the track or wherever. And that’s the part the public doesn’t really comprehend well. Yeah. And I guess that transitions more to talk about the question of hormone replacement and you know, I, my recommendation is exhaust all your possibilities first and then we go and sit with a good practitioner to talk about the ups and downs. But it does seem like once you take that road, you’re, you’re committed for life. And if there’s supply chain problems, like we couldn’t get our refrigerators during, during covid. Now what about, what about the vials of testosterone? That would suck. Yeah. Because you would tank, huh? Just like your diuretic thing. Yep. Well now tough out. Yeah.
I mean albeit that would be temporary, but like the testosterone thing arguably won’t come back. Like what? You know, it’s like water retention
A rough road or something. Yeah. You
Just, or you, you know, develop. Right. It’s like, it’s not a pretty thing. And I think, and like I always, I don’t know how much faith I wanna put in like a, the supply chain, but also just like the system to be able to just be like, okay, testosterone’s gonna be readily available for everyone. Like what’s gonna stop them 10 years from now from being like, this needs to be illegal and outlawed completely. Yeah. Like what’s gonna stop it? We’re not in control. That’s what I mean by that. We can’t make it in our basement. It’s not like if, if we could brew it with some rosemary and some sage and you know, maybe a little bit of like, you know, whatever it’s like it’s, then it would be a different story. You be like, okay, worse comes to worse. I can go like, you know, squeeze some squirrel testicle and like mix it with this and I’m good. But then now that’s not the case. You’re stuck with whatever the system has for you. And that’s what scares me is like, I’m just like, again, like I’m all about performance. I have no one gauging like my score. I’m not a professional athlete. I’m not, so there’s no reason for me to not go on TRT other than the fact that I don’t want to be hooked on something that I cannot make, that I cannot control.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, besides that, if I gave you a lifetime supply, um, and you realized you could get a 10% boost as the focused at attentive dad as well as doing better in the gym, would you see any downsides or,
It’s a good question. I, I see that’s, that’s actually a really good question cuz I, I think there are downsides that we don’t know yet and I still think it’s a synthetic hormone. Yeah. So with that, I’m pretty adamant about, like I’m, I’m pretty against synthetic vitamin D. Vitamin D is a hormone and we take it in a synthetic form. So I usually recommend people take cod liver oil to get a concentrated like food form. Like think about it, we’re taking a synthetic hormone here. Yeah. Like, like what does that disregulate? What other systems does that, does that dysregulate? We take synthetic vitamin D, you’re depleting bioavailable retinol A, so then you’re depleting A mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So then like, okay. So the same thing would come to mind with testosterone until I’m symptomatic. So that’s what my doctor had told me was like, because I questioned it, I was like, should I go on this? Like, here’s my career. I’m red lining all the time. Yeah.
Here’s my career.
Like here’s what I do. I did
The six pack
Like I gotta, well, I mean it’s not even like, I don’t even see it as that. I just feel like, like performance wise and energy at home, energy in the office. Yeah. It’s work level. Like the work level. I’m redlining like do I run myself into the ground and doctor’s just like, are you symptomatic? I’m like, no, I still perform great. Yeah. I’m still a good dad. Yeah. He’s like, then there’s no reason. So it’s one of those things, if you were to hand it to me right now, I’d probably say I’ll wait until I’m symptomatic. And then when I’m symptomatic, if that comes, uh, something that would help me, then that’s great. And I think that should be the answer for everybody. It’s like, that’s great. Yeah. You shouldn’t also just look at your blood levels. Cause there are people that are at a 200 level test and that doesn’t, that tells you your serum levels, that doesn’t tell you what’s actually binding to a receptor. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and your actual real levels that are active. So it doesn’t tell you
Yeah. Sean Baker’s got his video about that. Yeah. Or article his testosterones in the two hundreds. Yep. And he’s setting the world record in the concept two rower, so he is not symptomatic. Yep. Yeah, yeah,
Yeah. Got it. You gotta pay attention to your symptoms and be careful not to psychosomatic kind of placebo affect your way into that or
The, you know, comparison culture and you’re seeing guys getting better results faster. And so you wanna, you know, keep up with the Yeah. The pace that’s set. So do we have time to talk about the, the evolving? Yeah. Um, the evolving use of restrictive dietary strategies for peak performance and optimization. And you talk about the amazing success of using intermittent fasting to get your weight off your body and, and keto and all the things that you’ve talked about on all your videos mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I’ve written a lot about these topics for many years and use them and practice them. And I’ve kind of had a recent awakening to rethink the strategic use of these based on your category. So if we’re, we’re both good metabolic health and good fitness level and, and good body composition, maybe we’re in a different category than someone who needs to lose 50 pounds. I turn the mic over to you. Yeah. Where, where do we go man?
Yeah. And so, you know, there’s starting to be some more research that’s starting to come out on like metabolically healthy and lean people fasting because most of the research is on diabetics or metabolically unhealthy where the, the science is pretty strong in favor of fasting, working well for that, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But what about when you start talking about performance and you start, so my philosophy with fasting nowadays has shifted quite a bit from where it did when I had freshly off the boat of losing weight, right? Like, I used to toot the horn to the point of like, everyone, no, I should never said everyone should do this at all. I was actually really good about that, but I was like, this is effective. This is effective. Mm. Um, you know, now my stance is more like, Hey guys, like a, this is a hormetic stressor and should be treated as such.
How do you treat other stressors? How do you dose exercise? How do you dose cold plunge? How do you dose sauna? You should just use like fasting the same way dose it, treat it as a stressor. And maybe it shouldn’t be just like how you live your life because it’s the best way, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So for me, I still fast like two days a week, you know, like, but I do like an 18 hour and I’m very conscious of making sure I get enough calories in during my eating period. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I do it just because it’s a stressor to my body. I love training in a fasted state, but I also love, uh, pushing the boundaries just enough. Right? So is it restrictive? I don’t, I think intermittent fasting has made me very non-restricted. I think it’s given me a lot more flexibility. I think for me, again, as a black and white type thinker, like it was very nice for me to still is very nice for me to have a break from food and then have a flexibility a little bit more in my, the timeframe that I do get to eat. I actually feel like I get to eat a little bit more of what I enjoy and things like that. Yeah. Um,
You earned it. Uh, yeah.
Yeah. In a weird way. Like I don’t No, no necessarily I earned it, but I mean, I just, I know that like, you know, hey, I’ve only got four hours to eat. Like, it’s gonna be hard for me to do as much damage, you know? But you can still do damage, but, so it’s a little more flexible. Yeah. You know, I think that the restrictive diets come into play when you start demonizing certain things. Mm. You know, and that’s where it can be a little bit problematic.
Yeah. It’s a big difference. Yeah. Between a strategy and a demonization. Yeah.
Like I feel fasting is very liberating. Like I don’t feel it as restrictive and trust me, I’ve been called every name in the book like for talking about fasting and touting the benefits of it. Like, you know, you’re orthorexic you’re killing people, you’re giving people eating disorders. I’m like, do you even watch my content because I’m not even remotely talking like that. Yeah. I think it’s very liberating. I think it, for people that have serious food addictions, it’s very liberating because they just take a break and then they come back to it. Um, but restrictive dieting, I think there’s just such a difference between people that are metabolically unhealthy and are willing and wanting to change versus people that are normal BMI, normal health, normal metabolic function, doing these things out of obsessive nature or just because the, what we call the optimized bros where they’re trying to squeeze every half a percent of optimization when the first thing they should be focusing on is just get out and get moving and clean up your diet a little bit, you know?
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I know Layne Norton talks about that a lot and sometimes he people off. He a lot of people off. But I know he people off when he talks about that because he blanket states statements it like, Hey, calories and calories out, you should just move. Yeah. But we gotta realize like who he’s talking to and who he’s addressing, like he’s talking to, he’s talking to try to negate the people that are just like the optimized bros that are like, you need to pay attention to this, this food’s gonna kill you. And which I don’t think is wrong to say X food is gonna kill you or whatever. Yeah. So he’s trying to counteract that by saying like, we need to focus on just getting moving and that, and that’s what’s important.
But they’re not mutually exclusive. They both make excellent points. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So it’s, so with keto, I’m in the same boat. Like I don’t feel like ketos are restrictive because I feel like ketos just another tool in your toolbox and
Oh, I just mean by restrictive. I mean, you know, some parameters are put in place that are restricting the time that you can eat to a certain period. Got it. Got it. Or keto, you’re restricting carbs. And so it’s a strategy that’s instead of a, um, you know, a free for all of consuming nutritious food. I mean, we wanna, we wanna be restrictive with our diets cuz we want to get rid of processed food. And I don’t think anyone’s arguing that you’re not getting any criticism so far from some, from trashing, you know, junk food.
Well, that’s the operative thing though though, is that like, if you were to talk to, if I’m talking to three and a half million people on YouTube, a lot of those people that I’m talking to are addicted to hyper palatable foods. If I told them to just eat intuitively, they would run themselves into the ground with Yeah. Terrible food that’s distorting our signals in our brain. There’s no denying that hyper palatable fats plus hyper palatable carbs creates a very unnatural orchestra of fireworks in your brain that’s gonna make you want to eat more and feel a certain way. And dopamine hits and this and that and the other. That is not natural and not is not normal. And I cannot tell you to eat intuitively if that’s the food that you’re eating because your signals are gonna be completely distorted. But if I say, Hey, I’m gonna block you in a room and the only thing I’m gonna give you is unlimited sweet potatoes, unlimited broccoli, unlimited, you know, wholesome fruits and unlimited
Bean to Bar Dark chocolate, 85%. Yes. All that
Stuff. And unlimited, you know, good quality meat. Yeah. I would say eat ad lib. Like eat as much as you want. What
A great, I’ve never heard of that. That hypothetical before. That’s awesome. We’re gonna lock you in a room and you have unlimited buffet. Yep. You’re gonna be okay. Yep. You’re gonna be okay. And you’re
Gonna have, and you’re gonna have a, you know, a squat rack and a, and a treadmill and Yeah. Yeah. And you’ll probably feel like working out so many people.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, Dr. Robert Lustig Metabolical, one of the great leaders of, you know, policy and anti-sugar crusader, he stakes his reputation. I I pinned him during the podcast. I said, really? You, you, you say it’s that simple. And he said, if you just ditch processed foods, you can’t become obese. You can’t get diabetes, you can’t become metabolically unhealthy. It’s impossible. And Mark Bell’s like, no way I can eat my way through steaks to the point where I’ll get fat. But it’s a very good argument to say, if you get rid of those addictive, uh, you know, tendencies and you just lock yourself in a room with good food, it’s pretty difficult to overeat your omelets, your steaks and your broccoli at a certain point. I mean, maybe you’re gonna have a rebound effect and just like, kinda your story, the backward story of, um, you know, Jack-in-the-Box Yeah. Where, um, at some 0.2 steaks is enough and three is just, I’m, you’re gonna be good to go. You’re not gonna need it. Not gonna want it.
Yeah. Do, do you feel that we need to be doing any more weight loss studies? Do you think weight loss studies need to, to even be done anymore? Well, that’s a
I mean, it’s, so I got asked that question on Simon Hill’s podcast, which Simon Hill is a, um, I will say, you know, Simon, I’ve heard of him Yeah. Mean out of, okay. Like out of all the vegans, he’s, he’s the one that can actually, would actually have the potential to connect with people without offending and getting a lot of opposition. Because at the end of the day, I guess it’s cheeky to say he’s, he’s just another meathead. Not literally, but he’s just like a dude that’s, you know, he’s pretty jacked and he’s all about, he’s, so, he go, he preaches a little bit of a different gospel than the rest of the vegan community where he is like, protein is king, do whatever he can to get protein. Wow. Although he’s talking about it from a plant-based perspective. Yeah. And I try to be open to all sides and he’s just a phenomenal human being that is really smart and really well versed and just very open to whatever diet you’re doing.
Obviously we conflict, but we come to terms on almost everything else other than the fact that he eats plants and I eat meat. Like, you know, so, uh, you know, he asked me that. He was like, so based upon all of this, like, do you think like we’re just like, is this just BS? Do we need to, like we know what causes like weight gain. Do we need to keep doing weight loss studies or do we need to start looking more at things like this? Yeah. Like the, you know, how much processed food can we actually eat? Can we actually overeat? What happens? Like, and I, I tend to agree, I mean, we know some of the signs of, you know, metabolically it’s happening with weight gain. I don’t know if we need to put people in a room and be like, who loses more weight? Uhhuh. I think we need to be more like what diet licit, what biomarkers and like, that might help. I don’t know. It’s, it’s an odd question.
Or just, I mean, Layne Norton. reduces it to the concept of energy toxicity, which I love. Yeah. It’s too much food being stored versus, uh, not enough being, you know, burned.
Yeah. And, and that can be, that can be broken down into whether it’s saturated fat, whether it’s carbohydrates, whatever. It’s just too much energy.
Yeah. Yeah. No. Um, what do you think about, this is a, um, an assertion that Jay Feldman made, which is very interesting about the hyper palatable foods that combined sugar and fat. And he says that, um, your ability to generate energy internally is compromised by the chemical and the processed foods such that it’s not, they’re not inherently, um, addictive or inherently evil. It’s just that you’re, they’re messing up your metabolism. That’s why they’re bad. And so he puts this example of ice cream is cream and sugar. So we have saturated fat from the, from the animal with um, you know, some beneficial health properties. And then we have sugar, which is easily burned in the cells when we exercise. Uh, so ice cream is not an evil, hyper palatable, addictive food. Um, and it kind of, it kind of, um, spins the story a little bit when you think about if you can just get healthy by any means necessary, including the Layne Norton strategy of losing 20 pounds by any means necessary, and all of a sudden your blood markers are all better, could you then be better adapted to hit some ice cream once in a while with no ill effects and not go down the slippery slope or whatever?
What do you, wouldn’t it be wild if we just told people that were very overweight and metabolically dysfunctional? Be like, guess what, if you successfully lose this weight, you can get to eat ice cream again. Oh. Like, you know, it’s like, cuz that just popped into my head. It’s like these people feel so like, is that the reward system? Because at the same I agree. I eat ice cream now and then. Yeah. Like I, I have a pretty dang squeaky clean diet for the most part. But dude, I enjoy good food. Yeah. Like I don’t eat gluten and I don’t eat trans fats. I avoid those two things. Yeah. Uh, and the gluten is just because it doesn’t agree with me. Not because I have any real reason other than that. Yeah. And like, so it’s not uncommon to see me having a small bowl of ice cream.
Like what, but I, I’m very metabolically healthy. I’m very, very active. Yeah. And I probably incinerated it really quickly. Yeah. And I’ve used similar, it’s funny, I haven’t heard Jay Feldman talk about that specifically. And I use that analogy all the time to talk about pizza. I’m like, what, what if you had a beautiful sourdough crust pizza mm-hmm. <affirmative> with tremendous cheese on it. You’ve got lycopene from the tomato sauce, all these antioxidants, you’ve got some good quality ground chicken or ground turkey or ground beef on it. Yeah. Like individually those nutrients are all really good. So why is pizza bad? And then so then it kind of makes you think, well then okay, there’s the dual fuel hypothesis. There’s all these other things. Like maybe we’re not designed to be consuming those things at the same time. Like Right. Maybe that’s, um, and you think from an evolutionary standpoint, like maybe it wasn’t, maybe it would be really hard to find copious amounts of fat and protein and copious amounts of carbs at the same time. So maybe that’s where
We’re hard to do it when they kill the baboon and get the honey hive. Yeah.
It’s like, so it’s or is the focus just on like the whole like tribe is like going out to like kill the baboon and they’re not so much focused on the gathering aspect because they got the baboon. So it’s like, but even still, if we ate the baboon plus the honey Yeah. Like we’re probably not consuming 500 grams of carbs. That’s right. And 200 grams of saturated fat. Yeah. That’s just energy toxicity. Yeah. Plus a potential of dual fuels that maybe we can’t, you know, put ourselves in metabolic gridlock so to speak, is the actual term. And it can happen. We’ve seen it in energy toxic states, like when you have too much energy. Yeah. At that point, when you have fats and carbs together, you do result in metabolic gridlock. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> where the mitochondria can only shuttle so much fuel from both sides in at one time. However, the research is lacking when you’re in an energy deficient state. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you’re in a deficit, a serious deficit, you arguably could have fats and carbs just fine. But once you’re in a surplus Yeah. It’s harder and harder. It’s when you’re in a surplus it’s hard to, or lemme rephrase this, when you’re in a surplus, it’s seemingly harder to absorb, properly utilize fats and it’s seemingly harder to properly utilize carbs and it’s even harder to properly utilize them at the same time.
Uh, so it’s, so if you’re, you, you’re burning them at the same time though,
But you’re not really, are you really burning them if you’re in a surplus at that point in time? So then comes the question like, or are you just in storage mode? You know, like Right. Are you going through de novo lipogenesis and you’re also storing the fats at the same time? Yeah. And your mitochondria is trying to deal with it. It’s somewhat rhetorical. Like I, I like, it’s like I don’t know the answer but I know that there are studies that are on metabolic gridlock, which are fascinating. Yeah. They’re rodent model, but they’re just super interesting where you see like if you feed a bunch of fats they can kind of deal with it. If you feed a bunch of carbs they can kind of deal with it. But when you feed them both at the same time, it’s like an inflammatory mess. And they call it metabolic gridlock where basically mitochondrial transport, CPT one to bring the fats in as well as, you know, glute four translocation all just go like, you can’t do it. The body’s just like, it, I can’t handle it. Huh. And we’re getting rodent models so we can’t take it to the bank. But it’s so fascinating. I think more research needs to be done.
Um, and that might be quite a common occurrence in average modern human. Yeah, I agree. Who’s in energy, I mean the glycogen stores are full, they’re not exercising and then they’re getting all these hyper palatable foods that are putting together both. Yep. Maybe there isn’t a lot of gridlock going on. Yeah,
Totally. Could be. It’s just, you know, it’s interesting food for thought because it’s like, is that the answer to why that otherwise healthy pizza becomes a problem? Yeah. Charles Peloquin used to talk about that all the time. He was interesting. You know, interesting cat cuz all his stuff was very anecdotal and, and very theory-based, but he had some good points on some stuff.
Oh yeah. I love, uh, listening to his stuff and, um, Cynthia Monteleon, she’s a coach in Hawaii who’s a big proponent of his and um, has some really wild stuff but worth, worth reflecting on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So today, um, what’s your, what are your, what are your, um, your big, uh, dietary principles, your pillars that you, that you adhere to Yeah. That work for you?
I try to get, uh, 50 to 60% of my carbohydrate sources from fruit. The rest usually comes from like potatoes, whether it’s be sweet potatoes or red potatoes, the occasional, uh, like lentil type thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I, I, so I would say I eat a very hybrid heavy animal based Mediterranean. So it’s like I take the Mediterranean approach. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I reduce a lot of like the leafy greens and increase like the more cruciferous cause I do am a fan of that increase the fruit and definitely increase the protein. I probably two to three times as much as like the Mediterranean would recommend as far as animal protein. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So like I’ve very, very hybridized Mediterranean. I think the Mediterranean has a lot of interesting properties. Uh, I think where it falls flat and falls short is their recommendations on protein. So I think the ratio of, I used, I followed a Mediterranean keto for a very long time. That was how I did my keto diets was I was lean meats and lots of monounsaturated fats, lots of olive oil, lots of macadamias. Mm-hmm. Lots of avocado, things like that that fit that Mediterranean profile. Yeah. Now as I’ve started to increase the amount I train and I’ve just done more running, I’m saying I just simply need more carbohydrates mm-hmm. I shouldn’t say I don’t need them. I feel better mm-hmm. With my training volume if I increase the carbohydrates.
Right. It’s possible for you to continue training with lower carbs. Yeah. You just don’t feel as good.
Yeah. And I lived that way for so long that I’m like, this is the best way. And don’t get me wrong, like my cognitive was better on keto. Like I dealt will say that really I was clearer. Wow. There’s no doubt.
What do you attribute that to? The actual fueling of the brain? I think
It’s probably literally the ketones itself. Yeah. Cause yeah,
That’s And you measure your levels or Yeah.
Funny enough is even when I’m eating, cause I still don’t eat a lot of carbs. Like even high carb days are still like maybe 150. Like it’s not a ton. I’m still like for a, a good half of the day still producing ketones. Like that’s how much my body incinerates them. And I think people don’t realize it’s like once you’re super active, like you being a endurance athlete for so many years, like you probably never measured your ketones. Cuz there really wasn’t a way to other than the urine strips at that time. I would go, I would guess that like almost all of these endurance athletes are in a state of ketosis more than half the time. <laugh>, you know? Oh yeah. Yeah. So it’s like they’re getting the benefits. Um, so for me nowadays it’s, I will still keto maybe four months outta the year.
I go through periods where I use it as a hormetic stressor. I use it for my brain. I try to do it in wintertime when I feel like it makes more sense. I’m like, summer, there’s beautiful fruits out. Yeah. There’s great stuff. Organic fruits are just flourishing. And I’m just like, it. Like I wanna take advantage of that. Like, I love fruit, so I eat a lot of fruit. Um, and my meat sources are usually fairly lean just because I’ve got some gallbladder issues that run in my family. So when I start increasing like, uh, saturated fat from meat, I just bloat. I don’t feel that great. So it’s kind of personal preference. I try to keep my saturated fat intake to like 20% of my total fat because I’m just a huge monounsaturated fat fan. So I try to load my fats with olive oil and things like that. Yeah. So it’s, it sounds pretty flexible on the surface. It really is. And I try to just eat as close to the earth as possible. I limit the processed stuff, the occasional ice cream, the occasional gluten-free pancake, whatever, you know.
So that’s, that’s way too much to fit on a book cover. I’m sorry that, you know, the hybridized Thomas DeLauer Mediterranean version modern, but, uh, it’s been a lot of, uh, trial and error. Yeah. To get to this point. Sounds pretty sensible. Would you, if we brought in the most astute critic, like what would you say to someone that, that would challenge this pattern of eating? If anybody, I mean, do you think, you think there’s any critique there?
I’d say look at my visceral adipose tissue. Right. Look at my performance. Yeah. Look at my recovery. Look at my, uh, just overall energy. Look at my libido. Yeah. Look at my blood work, look at my cholesterol and you tell me if I’m doing something wrong. Right. So, cuz that’s personal to me. Yeah. That doesn’t mean that you could do this diet and have the same effects, but I really think that I’m really working hard to find what works well for me.
It sounds like what you have to offer that would work well for many, many people. And maybe you can answer this as opposed to like, what’s your takeaway from the carnivore message that’s strongly communicated by Saladino and Baker and the others. And it makes a lot of sense if you have this reactivity that you suffer from. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But do you think, do you feel like this is where individualization comes in, where someone can, you know, swear that a hundred percent carnivore works best for them? Or, or, or vegan They don’t do well when they eat any animal products. I mean, yeah.
Well I think with carnivore you eliminate so many variables, man, you’re gonna feel great. Like you, I mean, you are really eliminating most of the inflammatory things. My concern is that are you eliminating them so much that if you ever do reintroduce them, you feel like to horrible. Which only,
Only, I wonder, wonder if there’s, uh, reference about that anecdotes.
Yeah. I mean it’s, I don’t know. It’s wild because then you’re like, you know, okay, well hence why are the tribalism can get so strong with that. Be like, why wouldn’t carnivore? And next time I had a bean, I felt terrible. Yeah. Like, so cardio. I can’t believe I ever ate those. I must have been feeling like that all the time. No, you probably weren’t. What was going on is like, you’ve probably squelched when you, if you sit down and you eat any food, you’re gonna have an inflammatory response. Food is inflamma inflammatory. It’s the way it is.
So it was exercise, right?
I, I said that one time. I said that, you know, talking about food being inflammatory, I got destroyed by a few people because they were just like, you’re so orthorexic. He’s even telling us that food is inflammatory. Like, oh my God. Like this was supposed to be a benign statement to actually let you relax. Yeah. Just say like you, whether you eat that, drink that Pepsi, or you eat that salad, it’s all inflammatory. Like, and that means that you have inflammation when you eat like calories. Do that. Hmm. And I guess my point with that is like with carnivore, like yeah, you do cut that inflammation down. So if that’s a way of life that you’re willing to commit to, I think it works just fine. Hmm. Um, and I think that some people really feel phenomenal on it. And I think it’s a great message in general because it teaches people to just eat close to the earth. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then I think maybe then it gives them the power to kind of add things back in. But I think the worst thing you could do is like, go carnivore and then decide to like add processed food back in. It’s like, I think the natural evolution is maybe someone goes carnivore or has some fruit and then who knows? Maybe we’ll see Paul Saladino adding, you know, nuts in here and there. And so like, like, oh, nuts aren’t so bad. You know, maybe he’s walking this line too. Right.
Well to his credit, especially with the introduction of carbs, you know, it’s like, he probably got criticized a lot for that. But I think it’s, we’re all walking the path and trying to remain open-minded. I think that’s how I started this food discussion is like, I’m, you know, rethinking these tools that I use like fasting and keto, because at my age, trying to hang with you, doing the, the, the 21 minute workout, like, I’m just looking for nutritious fuel to perform and recover and perform and recover and, you know, kind of narrow my focus to that.
Yeah, I love that mantra cause I’ve seen you talk about it a lot and I’ve kind of tried to adopt that, perform, recover performance. It’s just simple, you know? Yeah.
High fives right there. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening to Thomas DeLauer, everybody. Where can we find you,
Uh, more like where can you not, where can you not,
Where can we hide
From you? Where can you hide from me?
Where can we find some, uh, critics? Well, in some of the comments of the videos,
But Yeah. Yeah. If you want a fun time, like, no, actually the comment, the comments on my videos aren’t bad. It’s usually the, usually it’s, you know, I take that back, like, honestly, like in the grand scheme of things, like, other than people thinking that I’m v shred, like, uh, you know, cuz they literally think get us confused, which is ridiculous, but nah, it’s generally, it’s just generally pretty tame.
I will, I will think, I, I would like you to share what you told me on the hiking trail, cuz I think that’s a really good thing for all of us to reflect when we engage in internet banter back and forth and it gets heated. Like what, what’s your strategy to deal with a hater?
Yeah. Every human just wants to be heard, you know? And I think I’ve learned that since having kids, like in, you know, any, any male that’s ever been in a relationship with a female and the female is always saying like, I don’t want you to fix it. I just want you to hear me. And, uh, men have a hard time taking that sometimes, but I’ve really tried to learn from that and be like, even when people, people are commenting, because it’s just what’s popping into their head at the moment. And unfortunately we have the ability to just stream of consciousness, like type that out. A lot of times I just wanna be heard, you know? So I try to acknowledge, be like, wow, like I, you know, I’m sorry that, sorry that this feels this way. Or like, that’s a very real thing. Like, let me try to correct that. Like, I, I hope that you can find value in some of my other videos. Like if they say something like, I didn’t like this video, this
Video sucked. Okay.
Okay. I understand this.
Try the other 781. Yeah.
Uh, I think it was like 2,800 something. Oh God. Yeah.
Yeah. Nice. All right people. Cool. Good words to end on. Thank you for listening, watching. Thank you so much for listening to the B.rad Podcast. We appreciate all feedback and suggestions. Email firstname.lastname@example.org and visit bradkearns.com to download five free eBooks and learn some great long cuts to a longer life. How to optimize testosterone naturally, become a dark chocolate connoisseur and transition to a barefoot and minimalist shoe lifestyle.