Jay Feldman is back for his fourth appearance on B.rad!
Jay is one of my favorite guests to have on the podcast and our episodes together are some of my all-time favorites, as I love the way he presents his compelling argument that we should rethink many of the foundational principles of ancestral health, such as intermittent fasting, low-carb, keto, and time-restricted feeding.
You will hear some scientific insights in this show that will get your head spinning and inspire you to rethink many of these practices we’ve been indoctrinated into from a big-picture perspective, such as are these things we’ve been doing actually healthy? And who (and what) can we trust to lead us down the path towards a healthy, happy, balanced, and energetic life? As you will hear in this show, a lot of the science and dogma we have been fed for a long time (not just mainstream dogma, but ancestral dogma as well) can now be scrutinized as coming from flawed or dated science or misinterpreted science. We talk about a few controversial topics, such as the comparison between being a fat burner like our ancestors or prioritizing carbohydrates as the human body’s preferred and most efficient source of energy, and you’ll also hear about the actual causes of excess body fat and how to get it off appropriately and healthily. Finally, we wrap up with a round of quick questions: are Omega-3’s really the anti-inflammatory Kings/vaunted centerpiece of our diets, or should we now avoid all forms of polyunsaturated fats?
We need to rethink many of the foundational principles of ancestral health. [02:35]
There is much controversy among extreme health enthusiasts regarding healthy nutrition. Compare being a fat burner versus being good at burning glucose. [08:21]
We must question and be open to learning new things. In school we are taught to read this book and memorize what is in it. You have to experiment on your own for what is best for you. [10:11]
What people are the best candidates to thrive on keto, fasting, or carb restriction? [16:43]
Stress can catch up to you when you are involved in some of these restrictive diets. [20:56]
Fructose can go to the liver and cause fat, but there is much more to it than that. [22:17]
What is going on when the hunger is dysregulated and the obesity is occurring? [30:58]
When Jay was a young athlete, he was experimenting with his diet and at one point was emphasizing starches and doing himself a disservice. [32:33]
Let’s talk about sugar. Good or bad? Ray Peat’s work talks about preferring carbs over fats. [38:25]
Our health depends on our ability to produce energy. [43:43]
When we look at our evolution from our ancestors, we see that if we are in an environment that is more energetically favorable, it’ll lead to greater complexity, greater brain function, greater ability to function. [45:52]
Calorie restriction is not the best way to extend life span, according to Jay. [55:20]
Work on not being sedentary and work on changing the foods you eat. [01:01:05]
It’s fats versus carbs? Which is better? You don’t have to put all your eggs in one basket. [01:04:17]
Fat burning produces more reactive oxygen species and as such, it has a hormetic effect. [01:08:23]
Keto, fasting, those things are beneficial in some ways despite the stress. [01:16:47]
If getting fat adapted is known to have a performance benefit, is this a different paradigm than us at rest and trying to get through our life when we’re going out on a four-hour bike [01:24:20]
What about mixing carbs and fasts in general? [01:27:57]
If you are carrying excess body fat, it is important to get healthy first by making better choices. [01:32:10]
Does prescription medication have an influence on things like our hunger, satiety, energy production signals in terms of side effects? [01:33:45]
- Brad Kearns.com
- Brad’s Shopping page
- Stan Efferding
- Ray Peat Diet
- Carbs vs Fat article
- Why I Stopped Fasting (Mutzel)
- Randle Cycle
- Energy Balance Podcasts
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I’m author and athlete, Brad Kearns. Welcome to the B.rad podcast, where we explore ways to pursue peak performance with passion throughout life. Visit brad kearns.com for great resources on healthy eating, exercise, and lifestyle. And here we go with the show.
Jay Feldman, everyone appearing on the show for the fourth time, definitely one of my favorite podcast guests. And this show, I’m gonna say was one of my all-time favorites. It stands alone as an incredibly compelling argument, education to rethink many of the foundational principles of ancestral health, such as intermittent fasting, low carb, keto, time-restricted feeding. And boy, we’re gonna go into some scientific insights this time, but at all times, doing a good job pulling out the practical application of such insights. But this is really gonna get your head spinning and thinking differently or thinking with a healthy, uh, big picture perspective about many of the practices that we’ve been indoctrinated into thinking are super healthy. And finally, after all these shows, I actually did a pretty good job sticking to my outline and important questions I wanted to ask him. But we tend to get on a roll and start talking about super important life or death topics.
So we start out, uh, addressing this fork in the road, like, who are we to believe what is going to lead us down that path of living a healthy, happy, balanced, energetic life? An] we are gonna get a very convincing argument here that a lot of the science and a lot of the dogma that we’ve been fed for a long time were shattering a lot of the mainstream dogma that has been programmed into our brains for decades. But even the dogma of the progressive, enlightened ancestral health movement could now be scrutinized as coming from, uh, flawed and dated science or misinterpretation of important insights. And I think the, uh, one of the centerpiece issues that we’re gonna talk about is this, uh, comparison of being a fat burner in the honor of our ancestors versus prioritizing carbohydrates as the human body’s preferred and most efficient source of energy.
That’s a hugely controversial topic, and this show is gonna rock your world. On that note, uh, we’ll also get into the actual causes of adding excess body fat and how to get it off appropriately without the unfortunate rebound effects or the frustration of not succeeding even when you’re trying really hard. And then finally, I’ve had these, uh, quick questions, the rapid fire round, uh, intended to get to with, uh, many of the previous shows. But this time, uh, we jump in there and learn some super important and compelling insights. Uh, for example, the idea that, uh, omega 3s are not the, uh, vaunted centerpiece of the diet and the anti-inflammatory kings. And in fact, we might want to avoid all forms of polyunsaturated fats. This is also controversial, and boy, it’s really important to reflect on this stuff. So I’m so proud to present to you Jay Feldman, from the fabulous Power Project Studios and the great support of Andrew Zaragoza, one of the dream team of the Power Project podcasts, and the engineer behind all the great camera work. So if you wanna watch this on YouTube, you’ll get a nice video experience. Or here we go with Jay Feldman.
Jay Feldman in person. If you’re watching on YouTube, this guy came to Sacramento for a podcast binge Yesterday. We had Mark Bell’s power project. The studio is still warm, the mic is still optimized for your voice. So thank you so much for, for joining me in person making the, making the long trip from, uh, from Mexico now and then heading back to Ecuador as your, your deal, huh? Yeah. Yeah.
Thanks for having me. I’m excited.
We got rainy weather for you. And then special thanks to Andrew, our man in the studio here with professional skills of jumping in anytime <laugh>, when you <laugh>. Yeah, either.
It’s my pleasure, man. I, I just like I was telling Jay on the way in, I’m like, dude, for Brad, like, it’s, he’s, he is our buddy. It’s always a fun time hanging out with you. So it’s really my pleasure being here.
Uh, most importantly, did you have your 10 eggs for breakfast this morning?
Oh, man. See, I was, I was a little nervous about this question, so truth be told, I was running late, uh, in, in Sacramento. We don’t really know how to drive. Uh, and then you add rain on top of that during rush hour. I was like, dude, I know I need to get outta the house a little bit sooner. So I only had four eggs today because I didn’t have enough time to eat all 10. So I just, I may do with that. So that’s, that’s what I went with this morning. But it’s the first weekday that I’ve missed in probably like three months of eating 10 eggs a day.
Nice. We’ll see if you run outta gas, you can make like the cut sign while we’re outta certain podcast. Andrew’s running outta gas. No, we’ll be good. Um, yeah. How about Jay? What did you have for breakfast? I mean, first of all, you approve of his 10 eggs, so we’re in good company here. And then what about you? Yeah,
Well, it’s funny, I was, so, I cracked open one of the, my eggs today and had two yolks in it. And I was thinking, oh man, that was Andrew the egg God giving me an extra one. Cause I wasn’t having enough.
<laugh>, I was p in it to happen. <laugh>. Yeah.
I once had a dozen of the vital, it’s called Vital Farms the widely distributed pasture Rae great company. They partner with local farms until you see ’em all over when you travel. And like every egg in the Dozen was a twin. And I was kind of freaked out. Interesting, interesting. Is this a genetically modified, uh, experience here? I even called up the company and they’re like, no, you just got lucky and all that. But I’m like, it gave me weird feelings, man, if we’re talking about the healthiest natural eggs out there. But yeah, a lot of yolks mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you’re on the B.rad podcast for the fourth time. We keep digging in deeper and deeper and deeper, and like we’ve been talking about off camera, um, I feel like we’re, um, we’re at a very important fork in the road.
Those of us who are extreme health enthusiasts and listening and to a lot of content reading, all that stuff. And then we have some, you know, some significant differences of opinion and really loud, strong voices and great scientists. Like the quote from Gabrielle Lyon on the Power Project Show when she was talking about Davidson Sinclair’s work, and she said, he’s a great scientist. I highly respect him. He’s just wrong about a few things. I’m like, what a beautiful, nice way to say that. But it seems like you have a very, uh, measured and perhaps controversial take on some of these things. And I’m wondering how you reconcile that personally when you’re looking at the great work of other people and the studies and the scientific research that contends this and contends that. And then we’re going to, we’re gonna jump to, I think the crux of the matter and this comparison of being a fat burner, which is the highly regarded essence of ancestral living versus being good at burning glucose and prioritizing that.
Yeah. So there’s obviously a lot of different opinions out there, and there’s research supporting different views. And a lot of it also has to do with the interpretation of the research, right? We’re looking at the data about how do we interpret it, but the, I I think the place that we wanna start is that we want to put ourselves in a position where we can think critically. And in order to do that, we have to separate ourselves from our views. So we can’t hold onto our views too tight, because if we do that, anytime we try to challenge them, we’ll have a reflexive response where we won’t want to, uh, to explore the possibilities as far as where they could be wrong. And I think that’s where science starts. I think that’s where learning starts. And the step after that is when we come across new information, we want to evaluate it critically, try to fit it in with our current paradigm, see whether or not it makes sense.
And if it doesn’t, we can kind of push it to the side. And if it does, we can consider it, dig in deeper until we can reconcile those two things. And so, when I was writing an article, let’s say about sugar and inflammation, or about the omega-3 s, you know, the places I would start are the areas, uh, are with the opposing views, right? It’s where, where is this research coming from saying that sugar’s a problem or saying that omega 3 s are really great and let me try to understand that as deeply as possible so that I can see the potential flaws in it. And then mm-hmm. <affirmative> come across the opposing research, the opposing values, the opposing support, and reconcile those things and, and see where it lands. And sometimes that process results in a lot of frustration, results in a lot of uncertainty of not knowing what’s right. You have to go through that in order to get to a point where you’re confident in your answer. But I think that is the only way that we can learn. And that’s, and I know we’re kind of getting tangential here, but I think that is now what we’re taught in school, right? We’re taught, here’s an answer, regurgitated back
Columbus discovered America and brought you know, gold and silver to the continent. Yeah, yeah.
And we said, you know, here’s a textbook. Everything in it is Right. Memorize it and then, you know, tell it back to me. And that’s learning. Mm-hmm. And that’s not learning. That’s, that’s, that’s regurgitation. It doesn’t require any thinking. Mm-hmm. That’s not what science is either. And so I think that is the starting place that we wanna work from, and we want to learn to the best of our ability until we can come to a point where we’re confident and we have to consider, of course, there’s limitations to the amount of time and understanding that we have of the research or mechanisms or whatever it is. And that’s okay. We just have to get as far as we can and continue to work on it. And then the other piece is experimentation. And I think that’s another tool that we can use to determine whether some view is correct.
And obviously it’s something you’re doing, what, maybe six months into your current experiments mm-hmm. <affirmative> with bringing some carbs in. And so I think that’s the other piece that’s really helpful in terms of, of a tool for how we can learn. And that’s another piece that we’re told to discount, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s not about your experience, it’s not about how you feel. It’s about here’s the hard data. So I think those are the only two ways forward. And if we’re doing that, then having people out there with opposing views isn’t a problem. It’s just a part of the learning process, and we’re all going to disagree. And that’s, and you know, looking back through history, there’s so many times where we know every scientist agreed on the wrong thing. <laugh>, everyone thought that, you know,
The earth’s the center of the universe
Of, of course. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that comes with the territory and, um, that’s, that’s just a part of the learning process. And yeah, I’m obviously, I don’t agree with a lot of the, you know, a lot of the people out there in, in terms of low carb, in terms of fasting, in terms of caloric restriction. And there’s good reason for that. And I’m, we will dig into that and I would encourage everybody, anybody listening not to take what I’m saying at, you know, face value and just say, Oh Jay said it, so it’s right. Like, no, to take a look at the sources I’m citing, take a look at the research I cited in my articles and in my podcast show notes and everything, and come to your own conclusion. I think that’s the only way forward.
Well, also, you and Mike Faye, your sidekick on the Energy Balance Podcast, have a good track of experimentation where you went deep into many things. I don’t think we’ve talked about this on any of our shows. So maybe you could take us back to your, uh, your college years when you were athletic, super health conscious, studying the, the subjects that you were leading to and went deep into certain, uh, dietary patterns and had some revelations.
Yeah. So even in high school, I was already digging into primal paleo, low carb a little bit, um, you know, Bulletproof Coffee, the whole deal,
<laugh> <laugh>, some high school kid comes on campus, or sorry, I was late. I was making my bulletproof coffee. <laugh>.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was not a fan of coffee at all. I only ever started trying coffee because of Dave Astri, because of the Bulletproof Coffee. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. And now you continue to follow everything he says.
Jay wants to live to be 180. Yeah. He got some years ahead.
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And, and being somebody who’s very committed to health and, and ran into Mike, you know, my freshman year of college, and he’s also somebody like that. And so we doubled down and went from the lowish carb, you know, still kind of body building style, higher protein, but mixing in some coffee to full-on ketogenic, and then a little bit of cyclical ketogenic, doing the intermittent fasting. And, uh, we struggled a lot, uh, and I can’t speak exactly for Mike, but I was there and we had very similar experiences where energy, libido, focus, uh, the things that were supposed to be just absolutely optimal on this diet you’re supposed to,
Or, or in your twenties, right. You shouldn’t be having problems with those things. Yeah,
Totally. Oh yeah, totally. And that was not what we were experiencing. And, and, uh, we were also struggling heavily with hunger, you know, feelings of restriction, major desires and cravings for carbohydrates and, uh, lifts. You know, it’s, we were big on, on weightlifting at the time, doing some power lifting, and, uh, we’re struggling there too. We were not progressing like we knew, we found out later that we could have been mm-hmm. Both in terms of building muscle and in terms of, you know, improving strength and, uh, you know, focusing on the class, you know, our classwork and, and studies and everything and mood and all those things sleep, uh, were not anywhere near where they could be. And so we were open at the time because of those experiences. We were open to alternative possibilities. And when we were exposed to some information suggesting like, Hey, maybe there’s some pieces missing here.
We, uh, it took us a little while. Like we didn’t just jump into that, but we were, you know, it’s like, oh, that’s, that’s interesting. And so we looked into it further and started dipping our toes in. Right. We were still of the belief that fructose was absolutely a poison. So we were mm-hmm. Bringing in, you know, small amounts of carbs, but it was only the starchy ones. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, some ri white rice and plantains and things like that. Uh, because we were, you know, still very fearful of the fructose. So we, it was a, it was a couple years of, of transition there, uh, when from when we first came across some of these ideas to implementing them. And, um, but I would say once we reached a certain threshold, there was no, uh, turning back at that point. So,
You were also young, fit, athletic, hard performing, hard studying, busy, uh, healthy males with healthy body composition. So would you contend that was your, your major problem is you weren’t a candidate in the first place to thrive with keto fasting carb restriction. And then maybe talk about who might be those candidates that really, um, could experience a breakthrough from, from going in that direction. Yeah.
I think that was part of it. I think that also the promise of these diets for most people is this is the way to longevity. This is the way toward optimal health. This is the way toward best performance, whether you are on one side or the other.
Right. For all of us. Yeah. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I think maybe we realized it sooner or had the experience sooner that it wasn’t working for us because we weren’t benefiting from the beneficial components. So this
Is something you’ve talked about and that kind of sucks cuz there might be some drawbacks, but at least you shouldn’t get your, you know, increased mental clarity because your ketones are higher. If that’s not happening, then why the heck did I miss out on my morning bowl of fruit? Right. Right.
Yeah, exactly. So when it comes to keto and fasting, I think there’s major costs to the stress there. And we were experiencing those costs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there’s also some potential major benefits, right. To avoiding the carbs. You’re not oxidizing that glucose well, you can’t take those carbs and produce energy. You’re gonna do better with some fat and ketones, we know that’s the case in some of those diabetes, Alzheimer’s, things like
That. And besides diabetes, Alzheimer’s, are there other people floating around in the super training gym that are fit and doing their thing but they’re not good at carbs or something?
No. <laugh> yes. Def I mean, if we’re looking at average, the average person is some level of insulin resistant for sure.
Even an average fit person that seems
An average fit person, maybe not so much.
Well, I mean, Timothy Noakes was running, uh, the comrades marathon and double marathon, a very fit 40 ish person, and he was on his way to diabetes and insulin resistance. True. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Uh, it’s probably gonna happen a lot less so. Right. And somebody who’s already got good body composition, they’re going to be more likely to be insulin sensitive and Yeah. And have good glucose metabolism mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it’s definitely not a guarantee.
Yeah, for sure. So we’re on a spectrum somewhere. Yeah,
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then the other benefits, right? Supposed to be, well largely will come from the gut health side. So we’re relieving ourselves of all these potentially toxic, uh, exposures from our gut, from the endotoxin production, the bacterial production of different Right.
Uh, War on Carbs, title of Mark Bell’s book, with the bagels on the skewer of the, the bayonet. Um, but you’re talking about those adverse consequences of eating shitty carbs instead of cutting carbs in general to get
You’re gonna get to that benefit, but it’s sort of a blanket approach rather than Yeah.
Yeah. And, and also the relief from poor gut health. And so, so in somebody who,
Oh, cuz you’re fasting? shit
<laugh>, you’re, and you’re not feeding the bacteria with all the fiber from the carbs or
<laugh>. Right? So if you skip a meal when you have poor gut health, you’re gonna get a boost in energy, whatever. Yeah.
Yeah. Or if you’re eating things that you’re not digesting too well. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, a lot of hard to digest foods. Yeah. So with, so with that in mind, those were benefits that I wasn’t particularly experiencing because I wasn’t in a position to gain from those. But as you’re saying, if somebody isn’t in that camp, if they are particularly overweight or they’re struggling with some major health issues, they will experience those benefits and so they’re going to have a more positive response. I still don’t think that that means that’s the best route forward mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it can at least mean that, that it could be a maybe for that person to step in the right direction. Yeah. Maybe it gives them some more control or some more desire to make changes because they’re seeing some benefit. Fine. If that’s, if that is the best first step for someone, that’s okay. But I at least don’t wanna make the, don’t wanna go along with this notion that this is the optimal way for humans to exist or to create an environment Yeah. For health. Yeah. And I think there’s a lot of other first steps that would also work that wouldn’t come with the stress.
<laugh> <laugh>. Yeah. I mean, it, it is important to acknowledge that first step. Um, Mark Bell said this, I think on our podcast, that a lot of people have emotional issues related to eating and lack of control and constant access to. And so any departure from this unfettered access to indulgent foods is gonna be a health awakening because now you’re on, um, you know, on the program and you, you got, you got something to answer to like, oh, I’m cutting my carbs below 50 grams a day. So, um, that said, you guys are bombing out in college to go back to the story. So something, something’s gotta give here. Yeah.
Well, and, and I will say those bene like the stress catches up to you. So when somebody who is having the benefits, again, if that’s a great first step for you, fine and prefer other first steps, but if that’s what you want to go with and it, you get some weight loss and it gets you the ball rolling. Yeah. The, at least that’s like some movement in the right direction, but then let’s, let’s transition away from that because that stress will catch up. And that’s normally when I, when you see these people who really crash on these sorts of approaches and their sleep is way compromised, their libido’s gone, their skin health is gone really struggling. Yeah. Um, extreme it reminds
Me of, uh, my friend in LA who had had a succession of lousy relationships and so he was gonna swear off all females and that was his departure from this negative pattern. And so it totally worked for a while, but then you get lonely and your, you know, but it, it works. And so, sorry to interrupt, but it’s like you could, you could make this, um, analogy to all kinds of things. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Just clear out the crap and then, you know, now you’re, now you’re climbing out of the hole. Now what? Right. Okay. So you guys were finally fed up with, uh, you know, craving a pizza more than the females on campus.
<laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And, and we, we weren’t those type of people Right. To be going for pizza. It was our binges were on frozen blueberries and strawberries, you know, <laugh>, um, that was
A little shame on you all that fructose <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so what about this fructose thing? Cuz there’s bestselling books out now that this is evil, it’s gonna mess up your liver. Um, maybe a little sidebar there.
Yeah, it could be a big one. The, yeah. You know, depending on how deep we want to go. But the, the general from the people who are anti fructose, which is a pretty common view now, it’s one of two things. The main one is fructose like alcohol is going to go straight to your liver and it’s a poison, it’s toxin and it’s gonna drive inflammation and it’s going to be converted to fat. And to say that is, it’s just incredibly misrepresentative of the reality. It’s, is it a, I made a really stupid <laugh> analogy in one of my articles. So I think it was a one about sugar not causing inflammation, where I was basically saying that it’s the equivalent of saying if you go in your car, you’ll die. And what I mean by that is if you go in your car, you might accidentally drive to the hospital, and at the hospital people die. So by like in that is the equivalent logic of saying like, don’t drive your car cuz you might die. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, what I’m trying to get at is that yes, this can happen if you consume fructose. If you consume fructose, we’ll go to the liver, 1% of it or so will be converted to fat. And that’s really not an issue at all. There’s always flux of in and out as far as fat stores
Go. Now if, if someone gonna challenge that, Jay, you’re full of shit, half the fructose gets converted to fat, or I mean, cuz you wrote in the article, you’ve said something like you need 40 sodas or something to, to, you know, get over this threshold of, uh, that conversion, which we’re so familiar with that fructose goes into the liver and it’s ligen.
So the, so, so to start like that is a pathway can happen mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and if you look at some of the people, you don’t have to name names, they will highlight this pathway and say, this is what happens when you consume fructose. And it’s just, it’s, I don’t, you could say it’s intellectual dishonesty. I don’t know what you wanna say about it, but I think it’s, I think it’s irresponsible. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, there is, that can happen. A, it will happen more if somebody has fatty liver disease, if they’ve got other issues going on. If they’re in the diabetic state, that pathway will be activated more. But it’s not because of the fructose, it’s because there’s already dysfunction. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> now in a healthy individual and normal human one to at most 5% is normally the range that’s given. But normally it’s gonna be 1% and that’s not really disagreed upon in the research.
Hmm. Normally when you see people who are citing the research saying that fructose is going to cause fat, uh, accumulation or, or conversion to fat, we’re looking at rats and that is a huge problem. Or we’re looking at very ridiculous situations where we are either consuming fructose sweetened beverages where it’s just pure fructose, you know, we’re talking 50 grams three times a day in a, in a, you know, mixed in water or something. Which does is so far from what exists in any food. Even, even if you want to take Skittles or like any candy, those are gonna be about 50 50 in terms of fructose and glucose, if not 45, 55 to the fructose cause of high fructose corn syrup. But there is, you don’t get a hundred percent pure fructose. And that matters a lot because we don’t digest pure fructose very well. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>, and this happens in rats as well. So what they’ll do is they’ll give these rats or give the humans a lot of pure fructose and we need glucose with the fructose to absorb it well mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when we don’t absorb the fructose, it continues down farther in the intestines, the bacteria consume it, produce a lot of endotoxin, that lipo polysaccharide that goes to the liver and creates an inflammatory state mm-hmm. That drives a lot of fat production mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and this is, there’s like very clear diagrams and graphics mm-hmm. <affirmative> from the research studies looking at what happens in rats when they consume pure fructose explaining this exact process. At no point is it just fructose comes in, it gets well absorbed or in a norm like when a normal healthy state it goes to liver and just becomes fat. That’s not that, that’s not the reality. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so yeah, I think it’s, there’s a lot of irresponsibility maybe going on there, but,
Uh, well, the high fructose corn syrup, which is now on its way out, you don’t see it on labels much anymore. Is that an example of something that’s been altered so adversely that you could kick this pathway into a significant amount if you’re drinking a few sodas a day or whatever? It’s
Still really far away from a hundred percent pure fructose. So
High fructose corn syrups. Okay.
Huh? No, no, I’m, I’m not a fan of high fructose corn syrup, but it’s only about 55% fructose. So you’re still really far from a hundred percent fructose. Yeah. And yes, amounts can matter. So, so when it comes to how much of the fructose is gonna be converted to fat, what happens when we consume the fructose, it goes to the liver and there are so many things that will happen to it before it becomes fat. The fat is only if those other areas are all saturated. Mm-hmm. So the first thing that it does is it will use that, well maybe not chronological order, but it’ll use that fructose to produce energy. It’s a fuel liver needs a lot of fuel is our most fuel intensive organ other than our brains. And it’s pretty close to the brain, like very close. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> so has a huge energy demand. That’s the first thing that it’ll do. Second thing is it’ll store it as glycogen. We can store, uh, about a hundred grams of glycogen in the liver, which then gets used by our brain, the rest of our bodies. Super important. So that’s again, just for references. Tar as far as talking about fructose and cans of soda. Each can of soda is about 20 grams of fructose. It’s about 40 grams of sugar in total. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that’s the equivalent of five cans of soda worth of fructose in your liver that can
To store, store to, to, to max out the liver. You need five, five full cans of crappy soda if
You’re glycogen store in your liver with zero, which doesn’t normally happen. But just, just for reference, we’re talking about a con, you know, storing a lot of
Stores, a lot glucose.
Yeah. The other thing is, if there’s too much in the liver and it doesn’t need it, it’ll convert it to glucose and send that out to the rest of the body. Cuz your muscles store glycogen, they use glucose, your brain uses glucose, so it’ll convert that fructose to either glucose. It’ll also convert some of it to lactate and that can be used by the rest of the body so it shares it everywhere else. And it’s gonna do all those things way before it’s gonna convert any amount of it to fat. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, unless there’s already dysfunction going on mm-hmm. <affirmative> unless your liver is already burdened unless there’s already a major inflammatory state. And so that’s, yeah, it’s, it’s way, it’s very far from this notion that fructose is a poison and, and just gets converted To fat
So if you exercise even a bit and, uh, regularly drain your muscle glycogen a bit, muscle glycogen also adds up to a whole ton of, uh, total 400, 500 grams in the body and a hundred grams in the liver. Something around there?
Yeah. About 400 in the muscles. That’s the standard numbers. But it can go as high as a thousand in someone who’s an athlete, they can store as much as a thousand grams of, of, uh,
No wonder, no wonder Christian Blumenfeld is doing seven hour 21 minute Ironman. Okay. He’s going on that story. We’re gonna talk about that later too. Um, so anyone who’s reasonably active and can, as they say, the, you know, the, um, the, the muscles are the glycogen suitcases, and so they’ll take that soda even if it’s a adverse form of worse than eating a bowl of fruit, whatever. Um, but then we have a large segment of the population that’s inactive. Their liver and muscle glycogen stores are by and large, full all the time. I guess that’s the, the disease pattern that we see. And then they’re eating, um, whatever they’re eating, the, the pizza and the sodas. Now we’re looking at a disease state where that person might want to cut back on fructose as well as all the other shit they’re eating
Potentially. But here,
<laugh>. Hey, I love it, man. I love it. Yeah.
Here’s the thing. I don’t think draining the glycogen storage is purely the solution because mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if the dysfunction is kind of separate from that, of course activity is beneficial. But if we’re using glucose, well, if we’re insulin sensitive, our livers are not burdened by lipi saccharide exposure by endotoxemia. If they’re not burdened by PUFA they’re not burdened by nutrient deficiencies. They can handle a lot of carbohydrate, a lot of fructose. And when we consume enough, it’ll turn, we’ll get enough ATTP. And that’s one of the main centers for our hunger control. So if we consume enough carbohydrate to produce ATTP in our livers and in our brain, that’ll turn off our hunger signals. And we’re not going to want more carbohydrate, we’re not gonna want more food. So we, these signals are already functionals, we’re functioning normally those signals are there. If we’re eating not Franken foods, if we’re eating food, you know, foods that are low in PUFA that are easily digested, if we’re eating good quality foods, good quality carbohydrates and whatnot, then we don’t have to worry about overeating so much. Those signals will, will go on their own and they’ll tell us like, Hey, we’ve got enough. And so we don’t have to even worry about draining the glycogen stores and just using all the carbohydrate mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause our brain will tell us, Hey, we’ve got enough food. Mm-hmm. So is activity good? Yes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, but I just think, uh, it’s not even necessary per se, for the hunger regulation and preventing overeating.
Um, what, what’s going on then when the hunger is dysregulated and the morbid obesity is, uh, uh, occurring.
So in obesity, we don’t have that efficient conversion from food to energy to ATTP. So we’re consuming all this food, but in because of the mitochondrial issues, because we’re not converting it efficiently to energy running up with still a lack of ATTP and instead that food is being shunted toward body fat. So the hunger signals stay on because our brain, our livers are saying, Hey, we don’t have enough energy. We need to keep eating, but we’re not actually using the food that’s coming in. Well, so by the time we maybe get enough energy to turn those signals off, we have so much excess substrate that’s been stored as, as body fat. Now, the issue is not the overeating, the issue is not that we’re consuming too much food, the issue is that we’re not using that food efficiently and converting it to energy. We’re either not getting the nutrients needed or there’s all these other things that are blocking our mitochondrial function that are then leaving us in the state of, of, you could call it excess appetite and overeating mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it’s more of, uh, an issue with energy production,
Which are totally hand in hand. You if you have low energy where you’re going, I’m going to the candy machine at three o’clock at the office.
Yeah, yeah. Or the french fries and all the PUFAs, which is not gonna make it worse. Yeah.
Um, okay. So back to the, the younger years when you guys pulled out of your hole and decided to I guess, experiment with the next level or, or get back to healthy state, what was going on there? What did you do? So,
I mean, initially it was bumping up the carbohydrates a lot, uh, bumped up the calories a lot
And good, good choices of healthy, nutritious carbs. What kind of
Yeah. Well, so as I was saying, we were, we were very fearful of fructose at the time. And, uh, because we were told that that it was going to cause the inflammation, cause liver fat, all that. And so we were counting our fructose grams and instead sticking with mostly starches. So a lot of white rice, a lot of plantains. I don’t think we were doing too much in terms of potatoes. And uh, so that’s where we started. And we were feeling better in some ways, but we did have some gut symptoms and actually some weight gain to start, for one, as probably because we jacked up our calories quite a bit. Um, and we were putting on muscle at the time. But the other thing too was because we were focusing so much on these starches, we were actually doing ourselves a disservice. And when we then transitioned toward consuming more of the fructose containing foods, more of the fruits and juices really supported our digestion a lot better and was much less of a burden than all the starchy foods. And so the weight and information came down a decent amount.
<laugh>. So I don’t think we talked about this either, but like, you know, just the notion of recommending orange juice is so far off the, the beaten message and track. And it’s even, um, you know, like, like I said, I’ve been experimenting now it’s seven months into this thing where I’m just trying really hard to consume as much fruit as possible, extra carbs, extra calories, extra protein. I’m just eating more food, weigh the same, same body composition. Um, so it’s an interesting experiment, but like, um, you know, I forgot what my question was, but the
Orange juice. Yeah,
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, how did, how is this gonna rise back to, to prominence when people have been shaming, uh, practices like that for, you know, the, the whole ancestral health movement?
Yeah. I mean, I don’t think anybody has to consume the juice. Right. If, if, uh, someone wants to stick to whole fruit, I mean, by all means, go for it. I, I do recommend that for, especially the people who are, who struggle more with insulin sensitivity in the body composition, normally they’re better off at least starting with whole fruits for sure. And, and easing in if they’re coming from low carb, like easing in doing it slowly. But for someone who’s particularly active and has very high calorie needs or digestion can be a limiting factor. So,
And pig time, uh, uh, uh, Stan Efferding and, uh, uh, the others at the highest performing levels, that is the limiting factor for a bodybuilder. Yeah. As Stan describes, they’re, they might even get bigger muscles, but they, they can’t eat enough food. Same with, um, Tour de France or, uh, Ironman level triathlete where the waking hours are spent training or eating food. And there’s some thought in exercise physiology even that, like the performance advantage is who can absorb and, and digest the most calories in order to fuel the next day’s training.
Yeah. Well, and, and Stan has been, Stan Efferding has been inspired by Ray Peat’s work as well and his research, and he’s also a proponent of most of these things. Um, I know there’s maybe some small discrepancies, but
Yeah, ta talk about him and, um, gi give a little bio info. I don’t think we’ve talked about him on, on any of our podcasts, but I know it’s a big inspiration to you and he’s got a, a good following and so forth. And it’s a kind of a counterculture, um, scene there, like a, you know, a cult, um, following the work of this, um, this aging scientist. But, um, he’s got some really compelling research and some notions.
And controversy too. I think people are also anti, uh, the whole scene.
Yeah. And real. So I’ll come back to repeat real quick, but I just wanted to say, so as far as things like juice, dried fruit, the real concentrated forms for someone who is limited by their digestion, those things are key. And I was definitely in that place. Key,
Yeah.<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah, I was definitely in that place when, I mean, I was consuming five, 6,000 calories a day. Hmm. I was, you know, 200 to 215 pounds at the time, you know, depending on the, the month we were looking at. And pretty active lifting, biking and stuff like that. So I needed huge amounts of those things to fuel myself without being, without having a huge burden on my digestion without that being limiting. So those things were really important for me. And when I switched from trying to fuel myself on pure starches for, uh, for carbohydrates to those other things, it was a huge relief in terms of how I felt in terms of my digestion and led to a much better situation. So that’s, and that’s one of those things are most helpful when somebody’s struggling with digestion or when they have high calorie needs. Or also for, uh, I don’t wanna say convenience, but for availability. So when it comes to something like orange juice versus fruit, it’s hard to get ripe good fruit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> year round, uh, it doesn’t exist in most places
And carried on the airplane and, you know,
Yeah. I mean, they have to pick it when it’s super on ripe mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, which is actually a problem. There are some toxic components in there before they’re ripe. And, uh, and yeah, sometimes it just is not going to be available. So the good thing about juice that’s pasteurized is it’s picked when it’s ripe, and then because it can stay good for a long time, they don’t have to worry about what’s in season at that moment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you can always get ripe grapes and grape juice or ripe oranges and orange juice. So I think that’s another thing to consider. And it goes for dried fruit as well.
Yeah. Al also another marginalized food that I’ve brought back with a vengeance. I can’t believe when I’m at the store checking out with these giant bags of stuff at Trader Joe’s or Grocery Outlet. But, um, it’s, it’s become a centerpiece, especially with this open season in my personal example. But, um, as I’ve shared with, uh, numerous people, um, I’m also super active, possibly more active and more energetic because of the dietary change. Um, but for those who are constrained on that energy expenditure side, um, getting the suggestion to go and add some orange juice to the game when they’re already fighting this stressful and ongoing battle with maintaining healthy body composition, not allowing that spare tire to come about, um, that, that gets challenging for people to, to grasp and to even consider.
Yeah. And that’s normally a situation where I would say,
Talk to Jay Feldman energy, Jay feldman wellness.com has a personal one-on-one consultation, but yeah, you’re gonna need some help and convincing and some open-mindedness, I suppose. Yeah.
And start with the fruit. Start with the whole fruit. Yeah. Start with the like start in slow ease in, and, and there’s other options too, right? Squashes and, and root vegetables. That is maybe a situation where we don’t wanna start with orange juice or, or some other juice. And yeah. I think we have to evaluate everyone on that individual basis, but to say that the juice is poison and it’s the equivalent of sugar water, which I don’t even think is poison to begin with anyway. But
<laugh>, we saw this guy at Starbucks getting the little packets of sugar and just going on sugar, sugar, sugar, sugar.
He’s talking about me. I was putting sugar in the coffee <laugh>. Yeah. Sugar’s got this insanely, it’s this, this, um, they
Need misunderstood PR firm. Yeah,
It does. It needs some, some better pr Look, here’s the thing. So we’re talking about fructose not being a problem, talking about carbohydrates not being a problem, assuming that’s the case, assuming that you’ve, you’re kind of on those arguments. The only thing against sugar, there’s two things I guess. One is there’s no nutrients, sugars, there’s no phytochemicals or anything. I agree. It makes it less good than those other things. But everyone in the low carbs sphere talks about, you know, eating tons of coconut oil, MCT oil, using ketones. Those are the same things. It’s fuel with no nutrients, fuel no nutrients, no phytochemicals. Yeah. And no one’s saying, Hey, don’t do that. It’s nutrient poor. Yeah. It’s, no one’s saying, Hey, that’s the same as white sugar. It is. There’s no pro, like if you’re eating a nutrient dense diet and you’re adding extra substrate, extra pure carbohydrate or pure fat, it shouldn’t be a problem for most people. Uh, again, is it ideal, is it as good as whole fruit or maple syrup or something else with some good phytochemicals and, uh, some good nutrients? No, but it’s not like the, it’s not the devil. Same
On fat side.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and to blame from all the negative foods that we have, the sh the white sugar that’s in there is not the problem. We’re talking about processed white flour, wheat flour, which I think is a huge concern. We’re talking about a lot of, um, seed oils, the omega 6s especially that are in there. Those are where I’d be pointing the blame, not the table sugar, not the white sugar.
Well said. Yeah. Um, so you, you got into Ray Peat’s work and that was an inspiration to turn the corner.
Yeah. So that, so when somebody, I think when people have the reflexive negative attitude toward Ray Peat, it’s because he, he’s painted as table sugar and milk and orange juice. And anyone who like has a reflective negative reaction to that is gonna say he’s quack, he’s crazy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But for one that’s, I mean, it’s obviously misrepresentation as well. I mean, his, his work is to me very impressive and goes far beyond nutrition. I mean, he’s a, goes into philosophy and politics and, uh, biology in all sorts of areas Mm. And ties it all together in a really, um, really intriguing and wonderful way. So I’m, I’m a big fan of his work from all, all of those perspectives. And, you know, talking about critical thinking and learning. I mean, those are an anti-authoritarianism. I mean, those are key components of his view. I mean, he’s not someone who creates prescriptions or says like, yeah, you should be doing this thing.
It’s let’s think critically and let’s, let’s think openly and let’s consider, let’s just consider these possibilities and let’s not subscribe to some authority who says this is the right way to do it. You know, let’s question things and let’s think critically. I mean, that’s his, some of his biggest, uh, views more than anything else. But he’s also someone who turned me onto some of these ideas that sugar isn’t the devil and carbohydrates aren’t the devil. And maybe there’s some reasons why we want to consider fueling ourselves at least partially on carbohydrates over fats. And, um, and he’s also, I would say probably the earliest person talking about problems with poly traded fats with the omega six s with seed oils, also with omega-3 s. I mean, that’s, that’s everywhere now. It’s super mainstream now, but he’s been talking about that for decades. I mean, he is, you were saying he is older, he is 85 years old, I believe. And, uh, um, yeah, he’s been talking about these things for a long time. And interestingly, he was also an advocate of low carb at one point. <laugh>.
All right. We got a cameo from Enma. Yeah, baby. Just grabbing some said mail on the box. That’s all I could read if you’re watching on YouTube. Huge cameo from Enma. Yeah.
<laugh>, it was slightly off camera, so that’s okay.
Okay. All right. So they’re not gonna know what we’re talking about. No,
No. I mean, well, I think Enma shoulder was
In there. I had there Go the
Camera. That’s all we need is that giant shoulder, you know, <laugh> that he was clicking and clanking in the gym yesterday. I’m like, I can hear those clicks from across the room. Is that good, <laugh>? I don’t think so. Keep working at it though. Yeah. <laugh>. Um, so I guess you call it the bio energetic model, is that kind of Ray Peat moniker
Yeah. Yeah. . Yeah. So as far as looking at health and physiology and even evolution and, and also, you know, any species and, and any even goes beyond that, just looking at, at biology through what’s called this bioenergetic lens. And Ray Peat’s work is building off of the work of a lot of earlier researchers. Uh, Albert St. Georgie, I believe is the one who wrote a book called Bioenergetics. And, uh, and he, I’m pretty sure was a, uh, Nobel Prize winning scientist. There’s a handful of others, uh, who, who Ray will reference quite often. I have some really great work. But yes, the idea, the largest idea that, that he’s putting forth when it comes to our health is this bioenergetic model, this idea that the availability of energy is what drives our health. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, that allows us to function in, in our optimal capacity, allows us to live the longest all, you know, it extends our longevity and, and feel our best. And this isn’t something I would say anybody should take at face value. Right. I mean, well,
It sounds like a pretty face value insight that the energy, our health depends on our ability to produce energy. Yeah.
Well, and if you look into any disease process, you see mitochondrial dysfunction, issues with ATP production issues along the electron transport chain. Mm-hmm. Those things are all key features of every single disease process..
Yeah. And I think undisputed what you just said, I don’t think you’re gonna have a counter opinion on this mic next week.
Yeah. Although some people will say that’s not the cause. Maybe they’ll say that that’s more of an effect. But I would say that that is the central piece, right? We have to figure out what’s causing that. Like of course it doesn’t just happen. There has to be something that causes issues with energy production. But I would say that that is the central piece, and we should be orienting everything that we do around how is it going to affect our ability to produce energy, supplements we take, the food we take in, uh, the food we don’t take in mm-hmm. <affirmative>, our movement, our sunlight, sunlight, our conversations, whatever it is. I think all those, if we’re orienting it toward what we think is optimal health, we wanna be orienting it toward what is going to lead to the most amount of energy produced and available.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, maybe that leads us to this fork in the road where the foundational principle of the ancestral health movement is, let’s go back and honor our ancestors and become fat adapted so we don’t have to rely on all this modern nonsense like six meals a day and all the things that are dispared now, and having to snack your way through to maintain your energy. All this is so, uh, widely criticized because really, um, you know, through the, the crucible of evolution, we’ve adapted to be really good at making ketones for our brain, or fasting through periods of famine and still being functional. And so you should get like that too. And, um, boy, I mean, make, make sense on the surface of it, because when we look at modern society, people are overweight, unhealthy, like no other time in the history of humanity. So the starting point seems clear, and then we start to get into cloudy waters when it comes to what is the best way to energize and, and achieve that of vaunted status throughout life of being an energy producing machine.
Yeah. Well, you touched on what I do think is the, one of the root differences, which is the evolution piece. So the, I know you were saying, Hey, it makes sense, like bio energetic view, energy drives health makes sense. But most people aren’t actually taking that view. What they’re saying is, our genes drive our health. Our genes are set in stone. They’ve been set in stone based on millions of years of evolution, and we need to conform to what they dictate mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so if in our past they were formed based on various stresses that we experienced, we need to mimic those things to get to optimal health. And the bioenergetic view in terms of evolution really dictates something different, which is that the availability of energy will drive our complexity. And so if we’re in an envi, there’s a two-way street with our environment, and there’s a lot of really great evidence for this. Um, but we can dig into it. But also part of it, I’m sure is outside the scope here, but basically if we’re in an environment that is more energetically favorable, it’ll lead to greater complexity, greater brain function, greater ability to, to function that is going to affect our genes in that way, as opposed to this idea that we’re stuck with our genes and those just function on random mutation. That’s the current dogma. It’s all random. And so we just have to conform to our genes. Right.
Other, we’re just, we’re not gorillas because of random mutation, not because we found more nutrient tense food or
<laugh>. Right, right, right, right.
I never thought about it that way. That’s pretty, that’s pretty hard to accept.
Yeah. Well, and
We’re just here randomly, we didn’t work hard to, to go find the good food and build a better tool. We just got lucky. I mean, I, I is that kind of the Darwin thing where the, the beak had a mutation and then that bird got lucky and, and got more food and reproduce more.
Yeah. So basically what it, what it mean, so from that Darwinian view, it’s like if somebody, one of a human would’ve had to have a mutation that allowed them to handle something new and improve from that, and then that could lead to a derivation of our, of our genetic profile if they were fitter mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they survived more and reproduced more. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s going to lead to certain, adapt certain changes in our genetic line mm-hmm. <affirmative> that we can then use to, to, you know, then that’s going to be like our template. But instead, if we’re talking about this two-way street here in terms of our genes, in terms of epi, epigenetics and all of that then instead, if we’re in a more favorable environment, it will actually affect our genes. And that alone can determine the direction of our evolutionary path.
Seems like both can be valid. Uh, and, you know, interplaying, I
Mean they can be, but the kind of neo dar, so Darwin was in favor of this idea. There’s what’s called the neo Darwinian view of evolution. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is the more prominent view right now. That’s the central dogma of biology and, and medicine and everything right now, which is that it’s a unidirectional situation. It’s genes only, and it’s only random. And there’s no direct impact of our genes from our environment. Yes. Now there’s epigenetics, but that’s only temporary. It only affects you, it doesn’t like actually get passed down and, uh, it’s just turning things on and off. But as far as that, the genes, it’s set in stone and, uh, yeah. And so the, that is, it might sound like a small discrepancy, but then if we take that to compare it to the ancestral, you know, view, right? Which is that we should be doing what our ancestors did. That’s what our genes were built around as opposed to the idea that we can create a better environment that will actually allow us to complexify further. It’ll allow us to grow toward better brain function, better function in all sorts of ways, and greater capacity then that, I would say that’s what we wanna lean toward. We wanna lean toward our, our, like what is potential, like what we can get to as opposed to resorting to what we can get by on.
That’s heavy people. We’re, we’re getting deep here. I mean, that’s a pretty important leap in thought. And what occurs to me is like we’re not, uh, in the ancestral time period anymore. I was joking to you yesterday about my sticky note where it says don’t eat fruit in the wintertime because it’s against our ancestral genetic experience. Winter was a time for fat storage slowing down. And so the fruit’s gonna make you fat, especially in the winter. And for years I’ve made a concerted effort to avoid the fruit in the winter. And then I’m thinking, okay, well Southwest Airlines just had a flash sale for 30% off Hawaii tickets. And we, we booked three trips to Hawaii. So just like last winter, we did the same thing. So my winter entails flying to the tropics and going on hot sweaty hikes and then going to the farmer’s market and grabbing the papayas and the mangoes and chowing ’em down.
And so the answer is, what fricking winter are we talking about Now when I just turned the thermostat from 71 to 72? Cause I’m a little chilly. And so you can make a thousand similar examples. Another super important one is like today’s high performing athlete, Dr. Tommy Wood sites research that today’s CrossFit star, Ironman triathlete, ultramarathon athlete is burning six times more calories than the busiest hunter-gatherer in the history of the human timeline. And so we have no comparison to those guys that were scraping by. Like you said, what’s, or I say what’s possible, what’s optimal is the, where we really are compelled to think right now, cuz we know it’s possible to survive a long, dark, cold, freezing winter with no food in a cave and walking around and then hunting something fully on ketones. Cuz we haven’t had any sugar in three weeks, but we’re starving and so we can do it. I’m not interested in that. I’m interested in qualifying for the, the the old man masters track meet. And so how can I get my body to this point that my ancestors, they ain’t gonna drop a sub 6,400 meters. I guarantee you there’s no especially no 57 year old ancestor that’s gonna hang with me.
Yeah. And I think we talked about this on, on our last episode too, but in terms of saying like what winter, I mean for the millions of years of our evolution, we were in tropical areas that were
Oh, forgot about that too. <laugh>.
Yeah. There was only 30,000 years ago Yeah. That we actually left tropical warm climates
30, or I thought it was 60 that we first left. We
Left Africa, but we were still staying mostly tropical. Right.
Subtropical. Right. We, we were going, um, we were actually going east. Oppenheimer’s human migration across the globe. I don’t think the website’s up, uh, right now, they’re like fixing it. But it’s a beautiful thing where you click the button and it shows the years and the path of human migration. I didn’t realize we went all the way over toward Indonesia, Australia, then back then finally up to Europe. So most of the time until the last little sliver when we got freezing cold and had deal has been papayas, mangoes or whatever the ancient fruits that Denise Minger talks about in her blog, where they did have these gnarly sweet fruits back then as well.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and then instead of thing, even if we want to say, all right, last 30,000 years in cold latitudes, that is normal and we’re supposed to just barely scrape by in the winter. We aren’t stuck with that. We can evolve so
Right, right. And that’s use the
Code discount code slash Brad Kearns. No, I’m just kidding. I gotta talk to Southwest about that. But anyway. Right. You can, you can turn the thermostat
Up. Well, and that like on in terms of our physiology, we can turn the, turn the thermostat up. We, if we can create a better environment than that, then we can go further. And so that’s the orientation that I would take as opposed to we want to mimic these harsh conditions. Those are turning down all those dials and that those come at a cost. And so, and this is not like we can take this then to come back to some of the most central research coming back to the calorie restriction. Right? This is calorie restriction is the same as the winter. It’s the same as the low carb diets. It’s the same as the fasting. It’s, we need to turn those dials down. We need to cause that stress. That’s how we live the longest. And that research does not. And we, I think, I dunno if we’ve dug into this, dug into on, on our podcast at all. If not, I’m happy to dig into it now or point people to some episodes I’ve done on my, my podcast. But that research doesn’t hold up. If we, if we dig into the, that research in more depth, just like the fructose causing increases in fat in the liver, if we really pick that research a apart, it does not support that calorie restriction extends longevity via stress or via calorie restriction. There’s so many confounding variables. And so I, oh,
It’s all rat study anyway, right?
There’s rat study there. I mean it’s, there’s nematode study, right? Mm-hmm. A lot of it’s based on C elegance, these nematodes that hibernate. And so you put them under stress and they’re gonna live way longer, but it’s cuz they hibernate and that’s a, coming at a huge cost of their function. B it’s not actually a longevity extension of health span or even lifespan that translates to humans at all. So there’s, there’s these major confounding variables. I mean, other ones too. You mentioned the rats. So in those studies, they compare calorie restriction to ad lium feeding. And what they find is that the calorie restriction group only extends lifespan so much as the ad lium group gains weight. So the ad lium group, the ones that are able to freely eat as much as they want, they get overweight, sick and die early. That’s why it looks like calorie restriction extends lifespan in those rat studies, not because the actual calorie restriction is beneficial.
Yeah. Restricting your intake of shit food will extend your lifespan. And in fact, like spot talk about confounding variable, there’s plenty of beautiful examples of people who have lived a life of moderation rather than excess. And they did really well. My father made it to 97 years old and back in the sixties he was a physician and interested in health and research and he decided to you know, optimize his diet and start thinking about these things way long time ago. And that served him really well by comparison to the average Joe Blow, who was, has been raised on TV dinners and fast food and all that. But I think we hold onto so strongly to these examples, like, um, the the sparse moderate dietary intake, not a lot of stress, everything’s nice and chill and they, they go for a long time.
Yeah. And so there’s, there’s a couple of studies, a pair of studies, I believe it was on chimps, two different zoos. They’re looking at calorie restriction. So in one group or one of the studies, the, their diet was corn syrup or Yeah, it was like corn syrup, but sucroses and corn oil, things like that, it was just fully processed and they found calorie restriction extends lifespan. Another, another study, they look at a whole foods normal diet for chimps and found that calorie restriction had no effect. Hmm. That’s, it’s like the exact same, same thing that you’re saying. That’s another huge confounding variable. If you’re eating garbage food, eating less of it is beneficial. If you’re eating food that’s actually appropriate toward what our physiology dictates, then you actually wanna be eating more of it as opposed to less. And that used to be the perspective even in, in the states.
So Brad Marshall has some really great, uh, information on this looking at even like the U S D A recommendations and, um, the information they’re putting forth in the early 1900s when they’re looking at nutrition and calories, we don’t even recognize that this current idea that calories are bad and that food intake is bad, is fully sociocultural and it’s new. It used to, the perspective used to be, the more nutrition you could get, the better, the healthier you were. That was what the rich people got to do. And this is before rich people were all big and super obese, you know, uh, that it was looked at as like, if you could eat 4,000, 5,000 calories a day, which people were apparently doing based on the data at that time. What
Timeframe is this you’re talking about? This
Is like in the thirties. Oh, there’s this, and, and so again, I would look at, uh, Brad Marshall’s information on this. I don’t remember what his article’s called, but he reviewed this U S D A report, I wanna say it was like 19 38, 19 39, something like that. And they talk about how the in, in the area, like the richer you were, the more you could eat, the better it was, the more nutrition you had. They were talking about it as an entirely positive thing. It was, there was no notion that that was even tied to any negative health outcome because it, it isn’t if you’re eating good foods mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you’re eating at that point, you know, meat and dairy and, and local fruits and vegetables. So these are entirely new ideas that we’ve come up with based on this terrible calorie restriction research, which is widely regarded as the most consistent way to extend longevity. The, the one thing that’s known throughout research to be the most effective way to improve health and extend longevity is calorie restriction. And I, I think it’s bogus to, to say the least, to put it bluntly,
What if we added on calorie restriction of shitty food, then it’s then all these scientists get to stay on the shelf and <laugh>. No, seriously. Cuz I mean, you know, I look at these people that we have some very prominent people that have the central focus on longevity and they’re, they’re pushing this agenda, you could call it, to quit eating so much.
Yeah. And, and you can, but, but if you just say it as calorie restriction of the bad foods without the other side of eat as much as you can within your limits of the good foods in a way that’s not leading to body fat gain and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. If you’re not including that last part, I think we’re still doing a huge disservice. You’re still supporting this idea that less is better and mm-hmm. And I think that’s, that’s a huge disservice and, and yeah. Really something that it would drive our evolution in a negative way. In a negative direction.
Yeah. I mean, I told you Dr. Tommy Wood told me this several years ago. He goes, you know, eat as much nutritious food as you can until you gain a pound of body fat. And then you turn the dial back. And that’s how you discover your optimal for a healthy fit athletic person. Again, I know we might be getting repetitive here, but I’m on behalf of all the listeners. Like, I get the emails, they’re looking at me like, yeah, that’s great. That’s working for you. You’re so active, you’re athletic, you’ve been so your whole life. Maybe I have good genes because my ancestors did not display a pattern of morbid obesity. But for someone who’s right now in the trenches, and this is a guy who deals with a lot of clients, so it’s not just theoretical here in the podcast studio, but like someone who’s fighting that battle who’s unhappy with their spare tire coming up or has worked really hard in the gym and in the store, uh, trying to get those few pounds of fat down. How are they, they gonna buy into this when Jay Feldman says, eat more nutritious foods?
So most of the people
Bigger breakfast, come on now, get 10 eggs. Like Andrew, poor Andrew only had four eggs today. I’m gonna wheel her away. Yeah, I know
<laugh>, most of the people I’m working with are dealing with serious issues. So we’re talking autoimmune issues. We’re talking about major issues with energy or fatigue, insomnia. Um,
So you’re basically getting desperate clients instead of <laugh>.
What what I’m saying is that these, I think these principles are even more important when somebody’s in, in a state where they’re struggling. Well,
Most people are, and they don’t realize it. I mean, yeah, I love that insight from Saladino who I’m, I’m mad at right now, but I’m gonna forgive ’em pretty soon. But, um, how do we know if we’re at level four trying to go to level five, or we’re in level seven going to level nine? We don’t know. And I think a lot of people could benefit from a deep examination of what’s going on, because you’re only at level four, dude, even though people think you’re at level eight, cuz you’re better than average. Average is probably level 2.3 right now in America and, and the other developed nations.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I’m so, so to that, like that objection, I mean, I’m, I’ve worked with people with severe fatty liver disease and that would be a case where if you ask most people who are concerned about fructose, they would say, that is the last time you wanna be consuming fruit juice. Right? That’s the last time you wanna have any sort of concentrated carbohydrate like that. And I’ve seen people who have severe fatty liver disease on scans, they have the elevated liver enzymes, like way elevated, all those things, completely healed their fatty liver while consuming fruit ju fruit juice freely. Like not, not being concerned. And I’m, again, they’re not having gallons and gallons of it. That’d
Be a great commercial for Tropicana. <laugh>. Yeah. I had fatty liver and I had my Tropicana every day and now I’m fine. Yeah. So what happened? How did they,
So shifting toward the right types of carbohydrates, shifting away from the polyunsaturated fats, fixing gut health, which is, and when you see fatty liver, you cannot separate it from endotoxemia. It’s a huge piece there. And the polyunsaturated fats, both of those directly drive processes that drive fatty liver. I have an eight part series on my podcast, uh, uh, eight part eight episodes talking about this on my podcast. So if anyone wants to check those out. But so I’ve seen people who are in that state and just by shifting the types of foods, but freely consuming fruit, fruit, juice, all of that mm-hmm. <affirmative> heal their fatty liver. And, and so what I would say if somebody’s concerned about weight, is that the first place I would start, would I say like start guzzling fruit juice? No, but I would say let’s start changing the types of foods.
Let’s still include fruit, but let’s maybe start with the whole fruit just in case. Let’s shift toward the right types of fats. Let’s make sure we’re getting good quality animal protein in nutrient dense, like nutrient dense animal protein sources. Let’s shift away from the grains, of course, the processed foods, the seed oils, things like that. Let’s address the gut health. Let’s use some some other things to support us. Let’s get walking. Let’s stop being sedentary. Right? Let’s get good sleep. If we’re able to do those things, the vast majority of people are able to see incredible benefits. They’re able to lose weight and all that, even if they’re having some fruit juice mm-hmm. <affirmative>. If somebody’s struggling and we need to dial down more, fine, we can do that. If somebody is doing really well and they include more of the juice and dried fruit and they aren’t so concerned about that, that’s great too. But I think just, I don’t think we want to take the extreme example and apply that to most people of like, yes, in the most extreme example, I would say, all right, just whole fruit. But for most people, I think they’re okay with, with some juice. And, um, I would say regardless if you’re coming from low carb or fasting, start slow transition slowly start to, you know, implement these things step by step. But
Yeah. Did you say walking or did you say P 90 x extreme <laugh> exhausting fitness regimen every day without a
No, you, yeah. You’re supposed to start with marathons. Actually
<laugh> start training right now. Well, I’m, I’m joking, but it does bring up an important point of the other side of that equation where possibly, um, uh, I think the fitness industry in a whole is, has some very disgraceful elements where well-meaning people walk through the front door, they sign up with good intentions to do the group marathon training program, or go to the exercise classes, the guided classes, and they start messing up the other side of the scale, which we all perceive to be just burn more calories. But this could, now let’s talk about a confounding variable. If you’re performing exhaustive exercise that’s gonna interfere with your goals of dropping excess body fat and getting healthy. Yeah.
You’re already in an energy depleted state. If you’re overweight, most vast majority of people,
You’re not, you’re starting with an energy depleted state. Your ATTP your mitochondria is messed up. Yeah. So when you try to go sit on the bike for an hour, it’s gonna be, uh, it’s like a, it’s like a Tour de France guy doing the mountain stage or something. Yeah,
Yeah. You’ve already got the stress hormones going. Typically, you’re already gonna have low androgens, low thyroid activity. Let’s start, yeah. Start slow. Let’s just work on not being sedentary. Let’s work on changing the foods. Those go such a long way. And then let’s look at what are your symptoms telling us, right? Are you having these gut symptoms? Do you have skin issues that could suggest some sort of nutrient deficiency? Are you sleeping well? Those are all things I’d be looking at way before saying, get into this really intense exercise routine, If ever.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I mean, these are matters of life or death that we’re talking about. And now we’re, we’re compelled to bet our life on one of the, one of the forks in the road. And back to this I guess we’ll call it a compare contrast between, um, the keto calorie restriction obsession with ancestral, uh, practices and trying to model them and biohack our way through them. Although, I will give a plug. Like if we are at this state where we’re not, um, challenging ourselves and we’re toning down, we’re in, you know, indulgence, luxury convenience all the time, then I’m gonna direct you over to the Liver King channel and watch him jump in the cold water or do the incredibly grueling, uh, barbarian workout once in a while, like all the employees that ancestral supplements are compelled to do. Uh, but, you know, mixing these things in can be a great personal growth experience. Same with going in the sauna, going in the cold tub, whatever, because that thing’s on 72 all the time, 24/7. And now we become, you know, a woo to our, uh, to our detriment. But at the same time, you’re, you’re making that good point that, you know, hormesis is, um, you also have to remember the cumulative effects and how these can add up over time.
Totally. And you’re, you’re right. So there is a fork in the road between these different perspectives. And the fat versus carbs, I think is obviously the central point that a lot of people focus on. And that’s because that represents that fork too. Are we gonna rely entirely on fat and ketones, which is directly in line with the calorie restriction model to get buy-in as little on as possible, turn down our metabolic dials. Are we going to go that route or are we going to go the higher carb route, or at least moderate carb route with trying to crank our metabolism up? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, are we going the hormesis route, the fasting router? Are we going this route? And
Okay. Gun to our heads, everybody, there’s time to bet.
Well, and it’s time
To <laugh>. It’s time to throw your chips in. Yeah. Yeah.
I want, I don’t want anyone to go into it feeling that way right now. Don’t want anyone to be like, it is, I have to put all my chips in one basket or the other. I would come back to what we said earlier, which is hopefully these are things that you can think about. Like, let’s start thinking about it critically. Let’s dig into the point, like, to the extent that we can, the calorie restriction is a great place to start. Fat versus carbs is a good place to start as well. But it does get technical with the biochemistry. I know you wanted to talk about my carbs versus fat article. Um, I think those are good places to start. Like go check out that article and work on understanding the biochemistry to the point that you can pull up a chart of glycolysis and the kreb cycle and the electron transport chain and try to piece those pieces together with, with whatever.
And in there, I know that it takes time and took a lot of time for me too to, to dig through the research and put those pieces together. But there’s like a take us one step at a time. You know, just do small experiments and just, just make some small adjustments and do the best that you can to, to think critically and learn one piece at a time. And I, I think that that’s the best that we can do. I think that if we go into all of it as, as it’s as it’s black and white and I have to do one thing entirely or the other, I have to just jump into this. I think that we we’re putting a lot of pressure on ourselves. I think it puts us in a pretty difficult position and makes it hard to challenge our own beliefs. So mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I do obviously feel strongly that in terms of the bioenergetic model and all that, but, uh, yeah, I would say for a listener who’s new to that or is not, or is like, I have some resistance here. Good. I mean, take, you know, take it one step at a time.
Um, so why do carbs burn more cleanly with less reactive oxygen fallout than than fat?
Yeah. So, so there’s,
By the way, that’s my question, is the opposite of the contention that’s widely touted that fat and ketones burn more cleanly and carbs deliver too much reactive oxygen species free radicals floating around, causing inflammation, causing disease patterns. That’s, that’s the party line of, um, this evolutionary ancestral health scene and the many books that talk about how to cut your carbs so you can get healthier.
And, and the thing is, somehow that became a tagline, but the people who are familiar with the research, even who are in favor of low carb, recognize that that’s not the case. So the one, the people who are in favor of low carb, in favor of hormesis actually recognize that fat oxidation, fat burning produces more reactive oxygen species. And as such, it has a hormetic effect. It creates oxidative stress that causes a stress reaction. The reason it does that has to do with some biochemistry here. And so the main thing that it’s going to do is it’s going to lead to a lower N A D 10, a d H ratio. N na d to NADH ratio is the main determinant of how fast we produce energy. In any disease state, you’re gonna see a reduction mm-hmm. <affirmative> in that ratio in health state, you’re gonna see that ratio to be higher. And because of the differences in, in the metabolism of carbs and fats with the fat metabolism, you will have a lower N a D 10, a DH ratio ratio at first. What then happens, it creates this oxidative stress state. And I explain these, this step-by-step in that Carbs versus Fat, which is the Better Fuel article on my website which I would recommend somebody take a look at.
Yeah. Recommend reading it four to seven times so you can try to start getting <laugh> the, the insights locked in, right? Yeah.
Yeah. And, and so it will create that oxidative stress and that creates all these defensive reactions, all these hormetic reactions. One of those things will then say, oh, hey, we have a low N A D 10 A D H ratio. I’m gonna activate what’s called an N A D salvage pathway by activating this enzyme called N A M P T causes the recycling and then production of more N A D so that you can restore that ratio. But you have to do that via these stress pathways. And so people who are really aware of the physiology will say, yes, keto ketosis, fat oxidation is hormetic. It creates more oxidative stress. That’s a good thing. Cause you have these defensive reactions. And then we get to that essis question, which is, is that actually a good thing? Which of course I would say it’s not <laugh>. And, uh,
Yeah. Uh, okay man, we’re, we’re, we’re open-minded thinking critically here. Um, and I think you spoke a lot of science there, but one of the ways to describe what you’re saying is like, fats this survival fuel and it’s gonna keep us alive when we’re starving.
Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. I always mean to mention that. First I get so excited about the biochemistry, but I think it’s really important to keep that context in mind. The whole reason why our physiology responds this way is to adapt to the energy availability, the energetic availability of our environment. So if we’re in a state where we’re, there’s no food available, we have to rely on our own body fat. When that happens, we want to have signals that turn our metabolism down. Cause if we’re, if we’re starving, if we don’t have food available and we don’t turn our metabolism down, we won’t last very long. We will starve way quicker because we’ll be running through that fuel too fast and we’ll die. And so the survival mechanism is when we’re running mostly on fat or entirely on fat with just a little bit of ketones, then we want to, to have signals that turn our metabolism down to prevent that starvation and death.
We, it’s really great that we have those mechanisms. The question is, do we want to be in that place all the time? Is that what’s gonna provide health? Yeah. Or instead, is that just a, a way for us to barely get by when we’re in a suboptimal environment? Yeah. But so this is, so when I’m talking about the biochemistry of fat burning versus car burning, the effects on the hormones, those are all in this larger context. These are as the signals, like these are all parts of the signals that tell our body to turn down the metabolism so that we can survive for longer. Yeah. And then it comes back to that fork. Is that a good thing? Is that our way to health? Or is actually producing more energy with the higher metabolic rate, the route toward health?
Yeah. I mean, uh, when I first, uh, you know, got deep into keto when we were researching the book, I, um, you know, built up my skills to the point where I was rarely hungry and could last a long time without food. And so I got slaps on the back from everybody, including myself, thinking, Hey, this is a great thing. Now I’m, uh, I, I’m impervious to the, the whims and the desperation that we’re so used to living on where we need that power bar in the drawer. Especially as a former athlete where I was just consuming so many calories. Like if I was without my food, if I forgot my bag on the airplane flight, you know, I’d get on the flight and just eat the whole time and get ready for the next series of workouts. Uh, but now, like I’m never hungry and I feel alert, energized, and, uh, clear, clear thinking according to Jay Feldman and many of the research behind it, because I’m kicking into stress pathways that bring the fight or flight hormones that give me increased mental clarity. Even, uh, improved energy and all these things, especially temporary, but temporary could mean three years or three months or whatever we’re doing. That’s, um, getting away from the endotoxins and the junk food diet.
Yeah. That’s relying on those, on those, uh, starvation survival pathways,
<laugh>, it’s like, it’s brutal, man. I’m, it hurts my feelings to think that was <laugh>, you know, going, going in that direction. I mean, I gotta bring up a, um, um, a counter, uh, point here, a counter question. Mark Sisson, one of the most leading respected figures, and of course we’ve worked together for so long. Uh, but what I do appreciate about him, just from an independent unbiased perspective, is his willingness to think critically and be open-minded. And he’s been celebrated for being willing to change his mind and change our information, and we revise the primal pyramid subject to, you know, a discussion and evaluation. And I’ve talked to him at length about these new, um, ideas, or not new, but you know, h how the bio energetic compares and contrast to this caloric efficiency model that the centerpiece of ancestral health. He contends that he’s so good at his metabolic flexibility, his metabolic efficiency has been so calibrated well that he is thriving, uh, without having to go looking for extra calories. And in fact, it’s not very stressful for Mark Sisson to fast until 1:00 PM and throw down a pretty impressive workout from 9:00 AM to 10 30, and then come back and drink a, a few sip of water, get on the computer and do his high performance lifestyle nearing age 70. So if someone has, uh, developed this metabolic machinery to become very skilled at burning fat, making ketones and not showing signs that it’s super stressful to do so, um, can this layer in somehow to the discussion?
Yeah. And so there’s two things I would think about. And this was something that in cement, I were talking about on the, on, there’s
Another metabolically efficient individual that’ll throw you on the mat whether or not he ate breakfast. Right?
Right. And, and so that’s basically, basically what we were talking about.
<laugh> Andrew’s cooking up a soundbite. I can see the YouTube clip going right now. <laugh>,
Anyone else wanna plug Liver King, Liver king fasts for five freaking days every quarter? I do wanna throw this in. Like, um, I was, you know, uh, uh, I, I know how he lives his lifestyle and he is so extreme with his diet and exercise and he’s so locked in and dialed into the ancestral tenants that that’s, um, someone who can maintain an impressive physique impressive fitness level regardless of the controversy that he’s now embroiled in. But it’s like, wait a second. How can he fricking do that and come out of that five day fast and then go throw down another barbarian workout? Obviously it didn’t stress him like crazy to, to do so because he’s built up the, uh, the, the skill to do so. So we got Sisson we got Ensema, we got Liver King. It’s just a throw in Mark Bell training for a marathon right now. Yeah. I mean, come on. Okay. Maybe
We’ll throw a Liver King out of it cuz with some of the new information, seems like maybe he was struggling with some things that, that
Right. Maybe he wasn’t feeling hundred percent
Or, I mean, if you are, you know, uh, enhancing your physiology from outside sources, then you don’t fall into the same parameters like poor Brad Kearns who has to take a nap the day after his sprint workout because there was pretty stressful. And I’m just trying and hanging on by a thread trying to perform and recover at an advanced age.
Well, and it looked like, and again, this is all on conjecture based on this brand new information from two days ago, but it looked like not only was Liver King using those things to, to help support this stress that he was putting his body under, but he was still dealing with issues, sleep issues and whatnot that he was talking about. So, right. Yeah. That, that one aside, let’s assume we’re talking, you know, about other people who are not doing that and they are feeling a hundred percent,
They’re, they’re feeling, they don’t know, they’re
Feeling, they’re feeling hundred percent,
They’re feeling like they’re at level nine. They could be at level seven, right? Yeah,
That’s, yeah. And that’s possibility. But I would say, so there’s, there’s two main things I would think about. One is that as of said, keto, fasting, there are benefits to these things despite the stress mm-hmm. <affirmative> and in some cases that benefit can outweigh the stress mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So they could be getting more benefits from these things than not, but I would always rather get those benefits without the stress. And so this is something that mm-hmm. <affirmative> again, it, it becomes so theoretical. And this is, I think something that was a bit of the, the issue when I was discussing this with Ensema is it becomes so theoretical and he is like, well, I feel good. So I think it maybe an analogy is helpful here. If we’re thinking about our energy availability, we’re gonna think of it as in terms of a bank account.
And any time that we are putting ourselves under stress, it’s a situation where we’re taking out a loan, right? We don’t have that energy available when we’re going for a run or when we’re fasting or whatever it is. We don’t have that, that fuel leading to energy availability. So we have to take out a loan in order to pay for what we’re doing, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that loan is a cost. And if we rack that up, we’re gonna say, look, I can’t afford to keep doing this. I have to turn down all my spending. Right? I have to turn down the money I’m spending, the energy I’m spending on all my functions. That’s what happens when we depress her metabolism. Digestion goes down, thyroid hormone goes down, sex hormones go down. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, sleep goes down, immune function goes down. All those things happen. So in the case where somebody’s, let’s say going for a run or they’re fasting and they’re taking out that loan, if they pay back the loan, are they okay? Yeah. Like you can pay back the loan, you can eat enough after credit
Card, you, you credit card, my interest rate on my credit cards, 18.33%, I don’t care until I miss the payment. Right?
So you can, you can pay it back and supposedly no harm, no follow. Right? But if you can get the benefit without needing to take out the loan, and cuz the goal here is not just to get by, right? The goal is to accumulate in the bank account. Right? So if we can get the same benefit from, from the fast without needing to, to spend that extra stress Yeah. Then we can, we can get to an even better spot. Yeah. So kind of what you’re saying, right, we can get from the nine to 10 or the seven to nine or whatever it is, it’s even again, even if we’re doing okay, we’re able to handle that stress without it noticeably causing a problem. Without that stress bucket overflowing, causing symptoms mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we still want that bucket as low as possible at all times. We want that bank account as high as possible at all times.
That’s what leads us to being able to be optimal, to create the best functioning we can, you know, highest mood, highest focus, best immune function, best sex and steroid hormone production, libido and all that. And with that building muscle or maintaining good body composition or digesting our food really well plus longevity. I mean, those are the things that I, I would argue are going to drive the best human state that we can. And so, you know, I’m a fan of exercise, right? Exercise takes out one of those loans. It is stressful. I think the benefits are worth it. In the case of fasting, if we can get those same benefits without the stress, we can accumulate more in the bank account. We can drain that stress bucket even further. I would rather do that,
Uh, Mike Mutzel’s video, uh, Why I Stopped Fasting and what I’m doing instead. I think it’s a title and he says he’s citing research always. Uh, uh, what was it? Um, a 48 hour fast will kick in these wonderful autophagy mechanisms that are known to support longevity. I don’t know <laugh>, we never know when we’re, we’re talking to Jay, there’s no, uh, there’s no, uh, rhetorical statements like on Rich Roll Podcast where they said, uh, uh, what do all the blue zones have in common? A plant-based diet? End of story. I’m like, end of whose story? Your story because, uh, I don’t know about that. Right. Um, but, uh, it’s a 48 hour fast has these wonderful autophagy health benefits. Uh, so does a one hour high-intensity workout, like the same pathways are activated, the same benefits. The one hour high-intensity workout is gonna also deliver assorted other health and fitness benefits. And, um, if you do both, which I believe is a large portion of the highly enthused and motivated audience, that’s when you start looking at Jay Feldman’s article is hormesis even healthy and the cumulative effects of stress, rather than how great you feel after a long, fast and or after a high intensity workout.
Yeah. And, and that’s, I think that’s the perspective we want to take, is there’s a cost to doing those things. There’s a cost to the fasting, there’s a cost to the exercise, there’s also benefits. But if we’re gonna put that cost in, if we’re gonna be going hard with the exercise or we’re going to be doing the ice baths, or we’re going to be doing any, you know, sauna, which I think is a lot less stressful than something like the, the ice bath. But if we’re gonna do those things for whatever benefits, then that’s even more of a reason that we want to be repaying that, that stress. We wanna be taking an even more food if we’re gonna be an athlete, if we’re gonna be you exercising a lot that we need to be eating way more. You know, going back to what Tommy Wood was saying, we need to be eating way more, supporting way more with carbohydrates the most that we can to get those stress hormones down as soon as possible. And so if we can, again, if we come back to fasting, the benefits there are not unique to fasting. If we’re not eating indigestible food, if we’re eating food that goes well with our digestion, if our digestive function is good, if we are using carbohydrates, well then why would we want to use stress toward that, that we’re going, that we have to then make up for when we can get those benefits? Otherwise, that, that’s why it just, it just doesn’t compute in for my view.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, I think some people are coming around to this. Um, I’m, I’m, I’ve made a list of, you know, prominent figures who are, you know, kind of seem like they’re, uh, drifting away from this obsession with how long can I last without food to embrace some other ideas. Um, Paul Saladino has embraced, uh, carbs famously and adding that to the animal-based diet, which I think is a, a beautiful approach because you’re talking about the most nutritious foods on the planet. Mark Bell and I are working on a book about meat and fruit because these are like the quintessential human evolution foods and they, they can’t be too heavily criticized. I have a video on YouTube saying, here’s my big bowl of fruit. Good morning. It was my morning exercise routine. I go, can someone please tell me this is unhealthy for me because I want to hear how someone’s gonna criticize that I just finished my 40 minute workout and now I’m gonna slam a giant bowl of fruit and, you know, uh, uh, shoot me if I’m giving out bad advice.
So, um, it’s, it’s a really compelling, uh, argument and I like the idea of just maybe tiptoeing in that direction. When I heard you on Ben Greenfield May, early May, 2022, I went into it. I said, I’m okay, I’m gonna try this. I’m gonna go to the storm and buy some fruit. Sorry. Dr. David Perlmutter who gave that quote about not eating fruit in the winter, um, that it’s, you know, it’s game on with Southwest Airlines included. So, um, I I think, uh, there’s a few nuances. Maybe we could go into the, um, the, uh, the question list cuz for once after four shows, I’m actually doing pretty good with my outline instead of completely going, uh, into, uh, into the rabbit holes or whatever you wanna call ’em. Uh, but in terms of that last thing about needing to refuel, especially as a high performing athlete, a six x athlete, compared to the hunter-gatherer model, um, boy, you know, I just talked to Dave Scott, endurance training legend and he’s promoting the, the low carb approach to endurance training by virtue of, uh, the performance benefit that you get from being really good at metabolizing fat, even as your pace increases or even as your duration continues.
<laugh>. I’ll also mention Brad Kearns Mark Sisson in this breath because we have the primal endurance approach, which is one of the centerpieces is get really good at burning fat so that you don’t conk out on the side of the road. And that’s undisputed that the, the person who has the most endurance is kicking into fat burning and burning a greater ratio of fat versus glucose. Because if you tried to keep pace with Kipchoge, the greatest marathon or of all time, they had that treadmill at the major marathon says, how long can you go at Kipchoge’s world record pace? And people jump on this big treadmill and they get spit out the back in like eight seconds cuz he is running four minutes, 32 seconds per mile for a marathon. It’s insane. It’s sprint pace for almost everyone except greatly trained marathon or so. Um, if getting fat adapted is known to have a performance benefit, is this like a different paradigm than us at rest and trying to get through our life when we’re going out on a four hour bike ride?
So yes, it is a different paradigm. It’s a different goal. And with that in mind, it’s also not the same goal as optimal health or reversing health condition or body composition goals. Right. This is its own goal and it’s a performance goal mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And with that performance goal, it is a situation where it’s going to be heavily fat reliant and it’s, and I’ve worked with people who are doing some sort of, you know, extreme athletic endeavors like that, you know, like mountaineering and things where there’s limited food availability while you’re doing it. Mm-hmm. It’s long-term endurance and it is going to require a lot of like, fat usage for fuel. And if that is the goal, I would say yeah, you want to practice training in that sort of state. I would still say A, you want to make sure you’re eating as much as possible to, um, support your needs and reduce the stress after the any activity.
And I would say you can probably eat quite a few carbohydrates following the activity to get that stress down. And still by the next morning, whatever you’re doing, your workout still be in a relatively ketotic state for your exercise. Mm-hmm. But yeah, that’s a state where you, I think you are making inherent sacrifices to your physiology for that performance goal. Mm-hmm. And it is going to be one where you’re, you’re not gonna get very far if you’re full on, you know, burn the glucose, uh, fuel your, your ultramarathon. So yeah, I agree. It’s, it’s a state where that’s the perspective outtake. Try to mitigate the stress as much as possible. Get the calories in, use the carbs in as basically as much as you can to still probably train in that carb, uh, sorry in the fat field state. But yeah, I think that there’s just an inherent, uh, compromise that that comes from, from that sort of, uh, endeavor.
Um, by the way, Sammy in can improve that. You could still remain ketogenic. He did a five day mountain bike stage race and he was consuming I think over 200 grams of carbs a day and he was still ketogenic because he was burning so many calories in the race. So once you get off your bike or whatever, your long hike or uh, endurance session, now if you’re going at a slower pace where you don’t need to kick in those glucose burning, uh, metabolic function, then I guess you could envision yourself as a fat fueled hiker of the Appalachian trail. And that might be, um, a, a good strategy. They talk about the either or a lot, I know you’re gonna call BS on that. So I wanna jump to that as the next question. Like, well if you choose the ketogenic route, then make sure you have all kinds of fat in your, in your, in your snack bag and stay away from those carbs so you can keep, uh, your membership in this camp or you’re gonna go, um, low fat because oh, we don’t want to get fat when we’re eating a high carb diet.
What does Jay Feldman say about that stuff?
In terms of not wanting to mix carbs and fats in general?
Right? Yeah. Was it the Randle, uh,
The Randle Cycle. Randle Effect? Yeah.
So tell us about a little about the Randle Cycle and then how that might, um, you know, how that might fly in the, the Jay Feldman wellness world.
Yeah, so the Randle Cycle is something that I wrote a little bit about in that car versus fat article and decided some of the research discussing it. Basically what it says is that in, in individual cell, uh, based on what’s happening in the mitochondria, when you burn fat or burn carbohydrates, it’s going to inhibit the burning of the other one. And so if you’re burning fat in that one area, it’s not going to be able to like in that cell or in those mitochondria, uh, it’s going to inhibit the burning of carbohydrates for that moment. That doesn’t, that is a very far cry from saying if you eat fat and carbs together, you’re going to have a problem because luckily, um, and intelligently our bodies don’t like what’s going on in one area of the body doesn’t dictate what’s going on elsewhere and especially in one cell.
Right. And so basically you can consume carbs and fat together and certain tissues in your body can burn the carbs and certain tissues in your body can burn the fat. And I think that’s a really great situation. So you can consume some fat and, and your muscles at rest will be burning that fat and that’s perfect cuz they don’t need a ton of energy mm-hmm. <affirmative> to be produced at that point. They’re okay with the slow burning of the fat with all those breaks on the system that we were talking about earlier in terms of the biochemistry to to, you know, the kind of, it’s basically like a starvation state just for the muscles, but that’s okay. They don’t need mm-hmm. <affirmative> anything more at rest. Whereas the other areas of your body that are going to be functioning at really high capacity, your brain, your liver, your kidneys on from there, those are, can use the carbohydrates and uh, produce a lot of energy from them and in that kind of clean, burning way. And there’s no problem in terms of the cycle with that. And so
That’s, well it’s obvious because the brain must use carbohydrates can’t burn fat.
Right, right. Unless you got ketones,
Ketones lactate a little bit, but like this is happening all the time. Right. Uh, I guess the, that actually jumps to the next question is like this, carbs and fat together, uh, warning is tied to the hyper palatable foods that we’re told. If we, um, bring these into the diet, we can’t stop eating them because they’re hijacking our brains. Uh, hunger and, and dopamine receptor pleasure pathways. The, the, the many examples of, uh, fat and carb paired together with processed foods, cheesecake, ice cream, potato chips, uh, pasta with food and on and on. Um, so it’s okay to eat carbs and fat together. How does that pair up with this warning to watch out for these dangerous foods that are gonna get you fat?
Yeah, I don’t think we have to make our food not taste good in order to not overeat it. And in order for it to, to be healthy. Uh, our hunger signals, as we were kind of talking a bit about earlier, are going to be mostly determined by the energy availability by that, that a t p. And so we shouldn’t have to worry about our food being palatable if our mitochondria functioning well, if we’re producing energy well from that food. Now of course a lot of what we’re calling hyper palatable foods are high in the seed oils, high in the pie, saturate fats low in various nutrients. I mean, they’re gonna cause a lot of issues with producing energy. So sure you could say they’re gonna cause you to overeat, but that’s cuz you’re not producing energy well from that food. But if you instead take potatoes plus butter plus salt, that’s pretty palatable. But that shouldn’t cause any issues. Assuming you digest the potatoes well and you have oxidized carbohydrates, well that shouldn’t be causing any issues in terms of overeating. So I don’t think there’s any concern there as far as combining carbs and fat or making our food taste really good as long as our hunger signals are regulated, which comes back to how well are we producing energy, how good is our digestion, how well are we balancing our blood sugar? How, like where’s our nutrient status? You know?
So if we’re going to get the handmade ice cream containing sugar and fat, the place just opened in Sacramento, uh, salt and straw, nice line out the door. But like this is a quality indulgence. Um, we’re not going to, uh, succumb to demise due to the pairing of those two foods. Right.
<laugh> simple as that. People, this show is sponsored by Salt and Straw. No, it’s gonna be pretty soon. Um, so you’re, you’re basically shifting the blame away from the evil food processors that are trying to uh, lure us in with addiction to Twinkies and all that, to, Hey, how’s your energy production going internally? Because if I feel fine and alert and energetic, I’m not gonna want, I might want one scoop or two scoops of the thing, but I’m not gonna want to return there every day at 3:00 PM cuz I feel like hell and I can’t even stay awake at my desk.
Right. Right. And that’s different from the Twinkies, right? So the Twinkies, which are gonna be filled with pofa, filled with things that are pregnant, irritating,
It’s gonna make you worse at internal energy production. So there your, there’s your vicious circle mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I guess a good way to, um, get close to wrapping up at like, if you are carrying excess body fat, we got an assortment of problems with your lifestyle choices and patterns, but it’s a catch 22 because it’s likely driving you to make bad choices.
Yeah. And that’s not going to change overnight. Right. The, we’re always adapting to our environment that those adaptations, the longer we expose ourselves to the different environment, the more they set in, the more we adapt to them. And so it’s not going to be a situation where I would say start off with ice cream. Right. Because we know the hunger signals are going to be off for a while. We know that it’s gonna take some time to get your, your energy production capacity back up. Mm. And so during that state, that’s why we were saying earlier, a place to start would be whole fruits over juice or whole fruits over ice cream because we want to get to a better place physiologically first. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, health first. Uh, and then, you know, then we can, uh, branch out a little bit.
Do you think prescription medication has an influence on things like our hunger, satiety energy production signals in terms of the side effects? Uh, Dr. Maffetone talks about that a lot. Like he, he will mention any prescription drug has major side effects that’s gonna affect your ability to burn fat in his model. For the endurance athlete,
I think it would entirely depend on the medication. So some are going to be activating pathways I think are harmful. Some are actually, I think not as bad as far as their mechanisms go and can actually be the better option if somebody’s in a dysfunctional state and can’t fix the root problem or isn’t a, you know, for whatever reason isn’t fixing the root problem. So I think it would really depend on a case by
Case. All right. We’re in the rapid fire section of the show as we can, as we can feel now. So you talked about pfa, the unstable nature of those molecules, um, and contending, I guess in the bio energetic, uh, model that all of them could be subject to scrutiny, including the highly regarded omega three s, which are also unstable unsaturated. But uh, it seems like there’s a distinction. People are saying, go for your good omega 3s, your good, uh, unsaturated and we don’t wanna, um, we don’t wanna touch any of ’em by some, by some account.
Yeah. The funny thing is, if we’re going to say that the omega 6s are, are not stable and they’re very susceptible to oxidation, we have to consider that the omega three s are typically twice as unstable. So if you want to compare one of the primary omega 3s, which is, which is d h a, it’s one of the components of fish oil to arachidonic acid, one of the main omega 6s to, uh, monounsaturated fat. The, uh, omega 6 type will be about 160 times more susceptible to oxidation to damage the omega-3. The D H A will be 320 times as susceptible. So if we’re considering that to be the main issue in terms of the, of the omega six s, I would say it’s even worse for the omega three s. And we see that with all the products. If you look at some of the studies on the fish oil products, they’re already damaged and oxidized.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> then if you look at the studies looking at what habits in our digestive tract with those sorts of products, they will increase oxidation levels and they will become damaged just in the intestinal tract, let alone when you’re then introducing them into the whole internal physiology and all the susceptibility there to damage. So they’re highly unstable, highly susceptible to damage. So much so that when we have those integrated into the structure of ourselves, that’s actually shown to be the number one thing that’s most associated with lifespan is basically the more omega-3 s and the more unsaturated <laugh>, the more unsaturated your, the membranes are in your mitochondrion in your cells, the faster you age and the shorter your lifespan. And this is across all species. This is not just humans, this is, this is looking at, at all species. It’s like the number one. There’s, there’s a, a theory of aging called a membrane pacemaker Theory of aging that discusses this in more detail. Researcher named AJ Holbert, who really goes into depth there. So anyone’s interested in that. Okay.
We just lost uh, omega-3, fish oil sponsor. <laugh>. I would just completely blown out the window there. I can delete those emails. But the highly regarded research and the wonderful benefits of supplementing with omega-3 and eating your, uh, high omega-3 foods, is this because of that antioxidant response that you talked about with, with fat metabolism and, and sort of along the same pathway or the same, um, thought processes when Paul Saldino talks about the plant hormesis and that wonderful kale smoothie, um, you know, so, so poisonous that it prompts an antioxidant internal defense response against the poison, thereby giving kale, uh, a top score in the nutritious foods list.
There’s probably some of that. I, I haven’t seen if there’s normally a, a situation where they’re touting omega-3 S for an antioxidant effect, but I bet if they were, that would be why, uh,
Normally an anti-inflammatory effect. I mean Right. It’s giving you an effect. Yeah. But is it because of cuz of the hormetic <laugh>, the hormetic stress of consuming
It, it’s more of the way that we’re viewing inflammation. Mm-hmm. So the omega three s do lower inflammation, um, but they do it in a way that’s, that’s harmful. It comes with some immunosuppression, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and instead of, of actually fixing the inflammation problem, they’re just suppressing our, our response to it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so it will lead to short-term benefits, but it comes at a long-term cost. It’s like a
Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, um, yeah, so there’s some major concerns with it and with that too, I mean, you can look at the, the outcomes if you wanna just look at the end points of does it help with cardiovascular disease and depression and all these things. There’s a lot of research saying, look, it’s, it doesn’t like it. We, we were told it was and, and what’s going on because it’s not actually panning out. I have an article on my website, um,
About Omega 3s. I don’t remember exactly what the title is, but, uh, I think might just say Omega-3 S are not the healthy fast or something like that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. I said a bunch of that research.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. Again, we’re betting our lives on this bottle of omega 3s that we diligently buy for years and years looking at mainstream programming and now we’re compelled to, to rethink that. Right.
<laugh>, right. Simple as that. Uh, you know what, uh, Jay Feldman, you killed it. Again, if you’re watching on video, we’re gonna fist bump you. You come and you bring the heat every time. I appreciate the hard work that you’re doing, and you’ve mentioned your articles and you talked to me yesterday about this evolution of your career from, you know, still being a young person comparative to, to me anyway, but you’ve been hitting it hard for so many years, especially that journey of contributing this content and those podcasts that you guys have published, which are, um, largely, uh, like, you know, lecture type where you’re just going hard for an hour and a half on a certain subject. I know it’s a lot of work and the body of work is fantastic. So I direct everybody over there to, uh, jay feldman wellness.com and the, and the Energy Balance podcast. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for joining The Power Project yesterday. You’re about to go into the, an adjacent studio to, to hammer it out with Chris Bell, so a lot of endurance here displayed despite his lack of omega-3 intake. <laugh>, thanks for watching everybody. Thank you so much Andrew. And maybe we of course can go get you six eggs now after the, the starting point with this early morning podcast only squeezing in four. Thanks everybody.
Thank you so much for having me, Brad. Thanks Andrew.
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