I welcome Bob Wheeler, financial expert and motivator, book author, and founder of The Money Nerve, to the show.
Bob is quite a unique individual as he is also both a CPA and stand up comedian! His passion and area of expertise lies in helping people conquer their shame surrounding money, and showing us how we can all avoid making poor financial decisions by teaching us how emotions can dictate our choices. His greatest wish is to simply share this knowledge with people.
Bob poses many thought-provoking questions throughout this show that will help you reevaluate your perspective on money and where it goes, asking great questions like: “Are the things you’re doing financially in concert with your life purpose?”
With thirty years of helping clients under his belt, Bob has distilled a concoction of warmth, humor, information, motivation and budgeting directives that he offers to anyone with financial concerns. And as a man of true integrity with infectious energy, Bob’s crusade for personal growth has cross-pollinated with his accounting practice to create a new approach to personal finances. Combining finances with behaviors, Bob explores his personal concept of creating a healthy relationship with money in his recent book, The Money Nerve. Enjoy having some laughs with Bob and learning how to effectively improve your relationship with money, and you can find his website here.
Our emotions can dictate our financial patterns. [01:26]
Are you self-sabotaging yourself regarding your relationship with money? [08:11]
We can get many different messages about money from our parents. [11:03]
Bob tells his journey with self-sabotage. [12:54]
Some people feel undeserving and calibrate their financial situation with their sense of their personal value. [15:18]
Money is used for manipulation. Bob tells how to put it in perspective. [17:41]
How does one draw the line between enjoying the fruits of your labor and being a rich guy trying to impress everybody? [21:36]
Don’t get in to comparing. There is no need to add more stuff that you really don’t need. [25:15]
There are many messages out there encouraging us to keep up with others and we build up credit card debt. [26:58]
Do I want it or do I really need it? Journaling really helps to clarify if your spending is in concert with your life purpose. [29:45]
Can one visualize the life they want? Most of us are very conflicted about our wants. [35:35]
The book, The Money Nerve, describes how we have a visceral reaction when we have money problems. It’s physical. He suggests solutions to the money problems. [40:56]
Some steps people can take to get on the right track financially to reduce the stigma of shame are to read, talk, and learn about money. Be aware of what your beliefs are. [49:45]
Journaling is especially useful so you can see your situation. If you are going to go big, make sure you understand it and be sure of it. [54:51]
Sunk cost bias is when we continue going down because you’ve already spent money on it. [57:30]
- “Are the things you are doing financially in concert with your life purpose?”
- “Do I want it or do I really need it?”
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Brad (1m 26s): Hey listeners, I’m pleased to introduce the very interesting Bob Wheeler. He is a unique guest. I would say very unique, but that’s poor grammar. Isn’t it. That’s redundant. This guy is pretty wild. A CPA slash standup comic. That’s right. He blends the most disparate careers you can imagine. And he wrote a very interesting book called the Money Nerve. This is about conquering your money shame and avoiding making poor financial decisions by learning how emotions can dictate our financial patterns. Yes, I was interested in getting in deep with him because I feel like he’s talking to me on many levels. Brad (2m 10s): I think we can all have some reflection and further personal growth to be had by imagining examining our relationship with money and especially the way that flawed childhood programming. There we go. Again, it comes up every fourth show how that flawed childhood programming might play into our attitudes about money, our consumption habits, whether we decide to engage in FOMO and excess consumerism and all the forces and pressures that are around us. So it, Bob is going to get deep into this stuff with a quick wit and some really interesting and unique insights that are off the beaten path of the financial experts drilling into your brain, how you should save 10% of your income, no matter what and all that kind of stuff that we’ve been overwhelmed with. Brad (2m 55s): Exposure to. One of the great questions he poses in the middle of show is are the things you’re doing financially in concert with your life purpose. I love that one. That’s my favorite takeaway. And that’s a really good start to go in the right direction of having a healthier relationship with money. Here we go with Bob Wheeler, author of the Money Nerve. Bob Wheeler. I’m so glad for you to join us. And you’re the author of this fabulous new book, The Money Nerve. We’re going to talk all about it and it’s going to get, it’s going to get personal, people. It’s going to get emotional and I’m wearing my heart on my sleeve for this show, because I know some of this stuff is going to hit me and I’m trying to gain more awareness of my relationship with money healthy and unhealthy here and here in the later years of my career. Brad (3m 44s): But boy, there’s a lot to unwind. There’s a lot to navigate through, especially with the, you know, the social, the cultural forces that are trying to program our brains to have certain relationships with money, FOMO, scarcity, things like that. And so now I want to hear from Bob how are we going to, how are we going to sort this thing out and have a wonderful, healthy relationship with money? Bob (4m 8s): Well, that sounds great. I’m ready to talk. Let’s get conscious. Brad (4m 12s): Conscious. Good starting point. Good starting point. What’s your, what’s your background? Tell, tell us a little bit about how you got to this point and, and, you know, thought about writing this book and so forth. Bob (4m 27s): Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know, since I was probably eight years old, I was set to be a lawyer cause I was going to do great things. And then I got to college and I was taking accounting courses just to help my grade point cause it was something that I had done in high school. Did it really well. It was pretty much an easy A for the most part. And I started meeting all the people that were lawyers and I thought, eh, I don’t really like them. I don’t think I want to be a lawyer. So I had enough credits to, you know, sit for the CPA exam and do all that stuff. So I ended up going into accounting and you know, I actually went into accounting partially, too, so I wouldn’t actually have to talk to a lot of people. Bob (5m 8s): I thought it’d be great. I could just talk to numbers and that didn’t work out so well because people wanted to talk about the numbers. And so I was sort of forced to do that. But outside of working with clients, I was not one that would just sit around with a group of people and have conversations with people I didn’t know. I wasn’t very comfortable with that. I started doing stand-up comedy that obviously flows right from accounting and not wanting to be in front of people. So, but for me, I felt really safe behind the microphone for whatever reason. So I could say mean things or say what I thought was true and just go, I’m just kidding. Right? And so I was able to use that as a way to speak my truth without maybe fully owning it. Bob (5m 48s): And as I was doing stand up, I got called into help out The Comedy Store. I ended up becoming the CFO of The Comedy Store. I have an accounting practice of about a thousand clients that I do with that. But in the course of all my friends in comedy, me being a CPA and having some financial self-sabotage meeting with clients and realizing that they were doing the exact opposite of what was really sound practical advice. I started digging a little deeper and just really got really conscious about how we have this under voice that’s working against us if we’re not aware of it. And so working with my clients owning my own self-sabotage and then just hearing people say, oh my God, everybody else has it so much better than me. Bob (6m 31s): I’m all alone. I didn’t get the download. And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no. Nobody got the download and all of us feel alone. There’s so much shame around money. Brad (6m 40s): Whew. Before we get into the binary art, I think that’s such a fascinating insight is here. You are happy to be with numbers, you know, not, not want to being super extroverted, but then you go, you, you jump the giant chasm over to standup comedy. And that’s interesting like you skipped the in-between part, which is Bob’s comfortable in a small cocktail gathering between 15 and 40 people, you know, you’re right from either introvert, sticking your nose in the books or grabbing the fresh mic on stage. And boy that, that that’s that’s wild. And I guess, do you feel like the profession is attracting that type of person who might be a nerdy social misfit, but they can rock the microphone and bring the house down? Bob (7m 26s): When that, you know, I think what, in some ways accountants and comics are both socially awkward, you know, I mean, comics can be great on stage and then you send them in a social setting and man, they, they scatter because it’s, it’s one thing to be on stage and pour your heart out. It’s another thing to be in front of people like face to face. And I think that’s true with a lot of talent. They, they are so much more comfortable with numbers that having a conversation with people is awkward. Or a lot of my peers, you know, talk in accounting terms. So like, oh yeah, I would appreciate that. And that’s section 179, w what are you talking about? And, and so, you know, they live in their own little world, so yeah, they, both of those places felt comfortable for me. Brad (8m 11s): You talk about the discovery of self-sabotage in your clients, as well as yourself. And I’m wondering, did you have sort of a entertainment-based clientele? And do you think that population is a little different than the, the engineer, the postal carrier, the person who gets the steady paycheck in terms of how the relationship with money goes? Is it a personality attributes that sticks with the creative types or something? Bob (8m 37s): Well, you know, you would think that, I mean, certainly that is true, that there, the creative folks have, have their money issues for sure. But I’ve got lawyers. I’ve got financial advisors. I work, I have a lot of therapists, clients. They all have money issues. Right? So it it’s, it’s definitely connected with people in the arts who have that starving artist mentality, or I don’t deserve to be paid for my creativity, but I, I find it in so many other industries as well. Because from what I’ve discovered is that, you know, we pick up a lot of stuff. When we’re four years old, five years old, six years old, we’re taking all this information. Bob (9m 17s): Right? And we’re taking it in as truth. We’re not taking that in as, oh, that’s mom and dad’s belief, oh, that’s, society’s telling me to do this. We’re like, this is the truth. I am terrible at math. I don’t deserve to have money. There’s not enough. I should buy anything that I want because I shouldn’t laugh. Like whatever those things are, we pick them up really young. And then we hold onto them. Brad (9m 41s): Oh, that, that theme keeps coming up so frequently. My mom and I joke about it because she does the timestamps for all the shows. And every third guest is mentioning these flawed childhood programming that affects our present day behavior in all, you know, the, the dieting failures, if we’re talking to a diet expert or the exercise, the fitness. So here we go again with, with money values and beliefs. And boy, that’s an interesting point where we’re just exposed to the information, but it’s not presented as, you know, something to evaluate. It’s just the truth. And maybe in some cases, it’s, you know, seeing, seeing some environment and then running the rest of your life away from the way that your parents were or being exactly the same as your parents were. Brad (10m 29s): I don’t think we can characterize it as we’re going to be robotically, cloning what we saw. Bob (10m 36s): Yeah, absolutely. I think we do things in opposition or support of our parents. So we either, when our parents didn’t know that they’re right. And so we fight, we fail so that they can be right or we succeed so that they can be right. Or where, like you want me to succeed, I’m going to fail. Right. So a lot of, I, you know, my belief is a lot of stuff we do. And the relationships we have later in life are all sort of reflections of those original parental units that we had. Brad (11m 3s): Hmm. So when it comes to money, oh boy, let’s start unwinding. I wonder if there’s like, do you have the five archetypes of the big spender, the credit card banger, the miserly cheapskate? I don’t know. How do we start with, Bob (11m 18s): I know, you know, I know a lot of people do the art art types. I don’t, you know, I don’t really jump into the art types because I think like, certainly those hold true, but I think each one of us are unique in, in the information we pick up. And you were joking about, you know, flawed childhood as leading to these failures later in life. And like, what I always like to point out is, look, I took certain things away from my parents. Right? They, they were terrible with money. There were a lot of things, but at the end of the day, at, at a certain point in my life, I have to take responsibility. And so even though I can go, yeah, my mom and dad, weren’t the greatest in terms of supporting me around finances or handling their money the best. Bob (11m 59s): Like that’s now it’s sort of on me, like at a certain point. Brad (12m 3s): Wow, Bob, I mean, come on now, are you kidding? Geez. What was that happened when you turned 40 or 50? Or what, when, when do we take responsibility for our lives? Bob (12m 14s): Yeah. I’m not quite sure. You know, it’s weird. I actually, gosh, probably when I was 40, actually went to both my parents because they’re divorced. And I actually said, Hey, listen, you’re off the hook. I said, anything that I’m doing, you can say that it’s like, I’m angry at you. Or you can say that my success or failure is related to, Hey, you’re off the hook. Like I got it from here. My anger is my anger. My crap is my crap. And they were both like, okay, what’s the catch? I’m like, Hey, look, I’m glad to be here. Thank you for bringing me into the world. I’ll figure it out. I’m good. Brad (12m 55s): Beautiful. I love it. And then I guess you, you also mentioned earlier that you identified self-sabotage patterns with your own relationship with money. So if you want to be the Guinea pig here, tell us about, tell us about your journey and what, what came out of that? Bob (13m 12s): Yeah, so, you know, a couple of things that happened as after I got my CPA license, I was looking around and people that were clerks and interns seem to be doing better financially than me. You know, I was, I never had enough money in the bank and I was just raw and I’m supposed to be this expert telling other people, and I’m like, this is what you should do. I don’t do it, but here’s what you should do. This will really work well for you. And then they would do it. And I’m like, wow, that really works for them. I should do that. But a couple of things, if, you know, when my parents got divorced in high school, I was probably 15, 14 or 15. And my mom said, Hey, look, you’re supposed to be really successful so that your siblings and I can have the life we deserve. I have four siblings. And I thought I’m not fucking paying for everybody. Bob (13m 54s): So I immediately started making sure I never had money so that when my mom would come to me and say, can I have some money? Yeah. I don’t have any, I don’t have any. And so I made a conscious unconsciously effort to make sure I never had money so that I didn’t have to share it. Right? Because what was mine was hers and my siblings. And I thought, I don’t like that. I didn’t agree to that. So that was one thing. And then when I was probably four years old, four and a half, I remember walking home from school and it was raining. And you know, it was probably six blocks, but it was pouring down rain. My umbrella flew away. I get home. My mom and my two older siblings are sitting there having hot chocolate. Bob (14m 36s): My mom’s like, oh, I was so worried about you. I thought really? Like, I’m a fucking walking home. It felt like an hour. And in that moment, I was like, I’m fucking on my own. I cannot wait to get moved out. I’m going to do stuff on my own. I’m not counting on anybody. And so those are two things that I picked up really early, and then just went with them as if they were lifetime vow without checking in and readjusting. Brad (15m 1s): Wow. It sounds like you’re, you have a good setup to do a trade here with the therapist and you’re doing their taxes and they can help you unwind this rainy day with the umbrella pulling away and then the warm hot chocolate and the family sitting around wondering when’s Bob going to show up. Bob (15m 16s): Yeah, exactly. Brad (15m 19s): So it seems like one that comes up a lot for me that I see around is this sense of being undeserving and then kind of somehow calibrating your financial situation to your, your sense of personal wealth status or value. And maybe, I don’t know if that comes up for you or if that’s a, that’s a pattern that a lot of us can identify with? Yeah, I think so. And this might really sound familiar to you because you’re, I, I would say you’re an achiever. I know for me, I was socialized to believe that I am my achievements. So my value is in having straight A’s. Brad (16m 0s): My value was in being the top of the club. My value was in winning the 4H contest. So I, my value wasn’t in, oh, Bob’s a nice guy and he’s got a good heart. That’s what I took on. I’m not saying that that’s what everybody purposely said to me, but I took on, I must achieve, I must achieve. And so even when I would achieve, I couldn’t relax because somebody could do it faster. Somebody could do it better. And maybe I did do it, but like I got lucky, like, I didn’t believe that I was actually doing these things. It was just like, luck kept happening for me. So I, I just had this thing of like, I’m not really worth anything unless I can just fill up the resumes. And I, I, I lived with that for, for a long time. Brad (16m 41s): Yeah, your self-esteem is so fragile because you might have a bad day tomorrow or lose a client or whatever, little down turn you take. And I was, as you know, I was an athlete for a long time, a professional athlete for the first 10 years of my adult career life out of college. And if, if there’s ever a, a profession that’s gonna gonna help nurture a fragile self-esteem, it’s one where one day you’re the king of the world, and everybody wants a piece of you. And then the next day, you’re trying to, you know, get people to return your phone calls because you, you raced poorly. So I think it’s a great growth experience to face that at some point in life, ideally early on, I’m trying to program my kids. Brad (17m 22s): So they don’t have to waste a decade of tiptoeing around on eggshells. Wondering if they’re going to feel like a valued person or not, but we have to get there some way shape or form. And I think money is one of the great manifestations of our, our self-worth, our self-esteem, self-respect all that kind of thing. Bob (17m 42s): Well, absolutely. And money. And I didn’t realize this for, even as I wrote the book, it finally dawned on me, oh my God, money is used for manipulation, right? If you really well, like I was naive. My grandparents used to say, if you like us better than the other grandparents we’ll put more money in your bank account. I’m like, I’m in, I love you. Don’t like them so much. Oh, great. Here’s a hundred bucks. Right? Here’s another fishing pole. So I, and it took me even into adulthood to realize, oh, I sometimes throw money at stuff to make it go away. Oh, you’re unhappy. Here’s some money. Leave me alone. I don’t want to talk it through. And, and we develop that, that our value is tied to money. Brad (18m 24s): So it sounds like you had some turning point where you started to head in a more healthy direction. You were saying you were the guy that didn’t want to amass wealth because your family was going to guilt trip you and put you into a difficult situation. So when did that, was there a turning point or how did that evolution occur to where maybe you thought it would be okay to go and make your way in the world without looking over your shoulder? Bob (18m 51s): Well, you know, it, it, it happened incrementally. I remember, as my grandparents were getting older, I was, they lived out in the desert outside of LA and I moved out to LA to be near all my grandparents, even the ones that didn’t pay me to like them. And I went out when one weekend to help my grand parents, my granddad, like with his little orchard and stuff. And at the end of the weekend, they were like, Hey, here’s a couple hundred bucks. And I said, no, I don’t want that. I came out to help you. And they’re like, get to know, but you’re just 200 bucks. And I said, no, no, I just did it because you’re my grandparents. And I want to be with you. Well, my grandmother called all my siblings. Something’s wrong with your brother. He won’t take our money. He’s messed up. What’s wrong with him? What’s going on with him? Bob (19m 31s): Right. So then I got all these calls. Why won’t you take their money? And I’m like, it’s not always about money. I just, I actually liked them with, or without the money. So that was like the first part. And then when I went to Africa, everybody was so happy. Right?. And the average income there at the time was a hundred dollars a year. And I’m looking around going, you don’t have a Mercedes or a nice Lexus or a BMW. You don’t have indoor showers. You’re lucky if you have a bucket of water, why aren’t you people so happy? Why would you give me the last shirt off your back? Something’s wrong, something’s wrong with them. And when I came back, I just did so much soul searching and just looking at, wow, they’re, they’re happy. Bob (20m 11s): They’re grateful. They’re still, they have to be in community because they don’t have the ability to just build a fence or move to a nicer neighborhood. They actually have to learn to work things out. And I realized, wow, I just use money and status is to just deal with things and move away or get out of situations instead of actually engage. And so that was a real big turning point for me. Brad (20m 35s): And how did that affect you practically speaking with what you did with your income investments, responsible consumption, things like that? Bob (20m 47s): Well, it definitely made me, made me want to have a lighter footprint. I didn’t need to have the camper and the boats and all those things that I thought I had to have. And it definitely made me more willing and intentional about actually taking care of myself, paying off debt, putting money in the bank to actually planning for my future. And what I was forced to do. And I think a lot of people are uncomfortable, uncomfortable with this is I was forced to set boundary with my family. I was forced to say, yeah, I do have some money and it’s actually going to stay in my bank account. And I actually feel okay about that. And you’re going to have to feel uncomfortable that I just said no, because I’m no longer responsible for how you react to what I decide is best for me. Brad (21m 36s): Wow. Yeah. I mean, that’s a unusual situation, but I think back to the example of coming back from Africa, with enlightenment and, and trying to have a lighter footprint, and I wonder, I suppose there’s a balance point to strike where we also can realize that we’re deserving of the lifestyle that we want. And if you want to go to Erewhon and buy the best foods in town, that’s my favorite market. I think it’s, you know, the best I’ve been around in anywhere. And thankfully in LA there’s five or six of them. Right. But I’m like I’m going in there and blowing my bowl and my credit card up. Cause there’s so many cool things and I don’t want to be budget sensitive there, but I also respect that ideal of having a lighter footprint and not being caught up in the consumerism. Brad (22m 24s): So, you know, how does one kind of walk that tight rope line where they can enjoy the fruits of their hard work, but not be a stuck up rich asshole in the BMW cutting people off in traffic? Bob (22m 39s): Yeah. And I think it’s, so for me, it’s, it’s questioning all the time being really curious about why do I want that? Like, why do I want the best food? Do I want to impress everybody? Or because I want to nourish my body? Brad (22m 51s): I love it. Yeah. So questioning your purchases, right? Bob (22m 54s): Yeah. Got to keep questioning are the things that I’m doing financially in line with what I believe my life purpose is. Right and so if my life purpose is to have the biggest house on the block. Okay. Well, and for some people, that’s it. That’s fantastic. Great. Bless you. Go in peace for me, that’s not right. I want it for me. I want to be in connection with people. I want to feel like, I matter. I want to feel like I have impact. And so when I’m looking at how I spend, I’m asking myself, is this in service? Is this an alignment? Is this an integrity with what I say my life is about? And so it doesn’t mean I can’t have the nice car. It doesn’t mean I have to deprive myself and punish myself and oh, you have to others. Brad (23m 37s): It feels superior because you have a lighter footprint than that obnoxious guy with three cars. I love it. Bob (23m 44s): Like I don’t want to get up my soap box..And when I do, you know, I will say to friends, listen, if I’m up on a soap box or if somebody is putting me out up on a pedestal and I start to buy into it, could you gently lift me off the pedestal? Please don’t push me. Like help me down with some love and compassion. Cause I can get arrogant. I can get cocky. I can be those things, but I’m constantly looking and saying, where can I do better? Like how can I be the best version? Brad (24m 10s): Right. And you know, if I look at these giant homes and I’m wondering those MOFOs better be throwing a shit ton of parties with their nine bathrooms and you know, 3000 square foot living space with a, with a pool outside, that’s fine because we’re in the free market. And you can, you can have another conversation about the inequitable distribution of wealth in America, where the three richest people have more wealth than the bottom 50% and all that stuff set aside for a moment. If people are following the rules and, and getting affluence, boy, I’m just gonna point out you better be having a lot of parties. That’s all I’m saying. Bob (24m 50s): Exactly. Brad (24m 51s): You use the stuff, right. Use the stuff, toilets, you know, and Bob (24m 57s): there are a lot of people that do have those houses. I’ve got clients and friends that have eight houses around the world and they pay people to live in each house because they go to it one month out of the year. Brad (25m 9s): After in the show notes, we will have lists of those homes. If you’re interested in doing a house sitting gig on the north shore of Oahu. Bob (25m 16s): Exactly. But here’s the, I think the important thing is for most of us is not to get into comparing. If I’m sitting there going, wow, look at, they have, and oh, they’ve got a bigger boat. Oh, they’ve got, oh, I’ve got to like, no, am I happy? Am I having fun? Am I like enjoying life? Am I like that for me, those are the measures of a healthy relationship with money is okay. I don’t have as much as somebody else, but I’m in living amazing life with what I got. Brad (25m 44s): Nice. I also liked that insight about take care of the stuff that you have rather than just overlay it with more shit. And my dad was a champion golfer for many years and he had a set of irons that he played with for about 25 years. And he passed up all the new technological advances. But when he grabbed that five iron out there from, you know, the mid eighties version and hit it onto the green, it was like a great representation of like, this is what the sport of golf is all about is get your swing down and get your skill level high instead of shopping at the golf shop for another new set that you hit a few good shots with and the indoor range. Bob (26m 22s): Yeah, absolutely. But it’s easy to get caught up with that in this culture. You know, media is telling us all the time, what we got to have social media is showing us everybody’s good life, which even though we see them having this amazing food in front of them, or they’re on this amazing cruise, like that’s just a snapshot, right? We’re not seeing the whole picture. And so I think what happens is we get this false sense of, oh, they’re all having fun. I’m missing out that FOMO. I gotta, I gotta catch up. I gotta let me just charge it. And I think when we do that, we do a disservice to ourselves when we’re just trying to keep up with everybody else. Brad (26m 59s): Well, I guess that’s how we live beyond our means. And then all the financial advice that comes down your pipeline with Suzie Orman, and whoever is saying that you absolutely have to save 10% of your income. I questioned that. Well, what if I have a credit card balance running at 14%? Do you still want me to put that chunk aside? And there’s, there’s a huge disconnect. And unfortunately this is speaking to what is the percentage of Americans that are in consumer debt is, is massive. And that’s like the first obligation before you start looking at the, the stock ticker in any ways is you gotta take care of your shit first. Bob (27m 38s): Absolutely. And I, you know, it’s interesting. I know that there are people out there like debt is bad. You must get rid of it and you must, or you must save. Or what’s for me, it’s about developing healthy habits. So when I work with people that have a lot of debt, I worked with them on, let’s start paying down the debt, but let’s start saving at the same time so that it’s not, oh, I must get rid of all my debt before I can move to the next thing. And then I can, once I do that, then I can move. No, we need to do all of them in moderation. So let’s stop using the credit cards. Like literally put them in the freezer, put them in ice. That’s what I did so that I had to like defrost it or wait two days before I could get my credit cards. Cause I was like, you know, I, Hey, you give me 10 credit cards and they’ve each got $15,000 on them. Bob (28m 22s): That’s free money. It’s not. But when I was young, it felt that way. So, you know, you pay down the debt, but you also start developing, oh, let me start saving 10 bucks, 20 bucks. Just develop the habit because it’s really about developing healthy habits more than it is. Like I must be down all the debt because if I understand why I keep creating the debt, I’m going to keep recreating the debt. Brad (28m 45s): Ooh, that’s a nice spin. Listen people. This is a nice, interesting twist from the usual. I feel like there, they are shoving stuff down my throat. Usually when I’m looking at financial advice and it also comes from an air of superiority because you’re talking to these multi-millionaire brands that are having their, their online courses and their apps and their books. And it’s like, oh boy, it’s sometimes tough to take. But when you talk about forming habits, that’s kind of a gentle, kinder, gentle approach. And it gives us that, that freedom, that permission to take, take a baby step, perhaps. And I like that idea of like questioning whether every purchase is aligned with your life purpose or not. Although I think I’ve used that to my I’ve leveraged that concept to excess in my life about, you know, getting a, you know, a little more extra this or that and saying, well, this is, this is for a health purpose. Brad (29m 38s): And so I’m going to go buy another home gym item that I can’t afford or whatever the example is. Bob (29m 46s): Well, you know, there are certain ways that we tell ourselves stories, right? And then that’s the other piece of it is when I’m looking at my financial values, are they beliefs or are they the truth, right? Is it a story I’m telling them, oh, I need this extra piece. Or the truth is I just want it. That actually has no added value other than I just really want it. So I think it’s important to check that out. Where is this a belief? Is this the truth? Because a lot of times we mix the two up. Brad (30m 17s): Hm. How can I, how can you help me a little further? They’re not mixing those things up. Bob (30m 25s): Well, you know, it’s, it’s great to have, like, I think it’s great to have accountability buddies. I think it’s great to have people that are, you can check in and say, okay, I’m saying this, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? So that I can have people say, well, you know, Bob, you said this, and now I’m seeing what you’re doing. And they say, oh, oh yeah, you caught me. Like, so having other people reflect back, journaling is a great way journaling about, you know, what do I want? Why do I want it? Why don’t I have it? What am I willing to do to get it and start to really check in with like, why do I want this? And what’s my beliefs around it. If I have it, people will like me. If I have it, my parents will finally be happy. Bob (31m 7s): You know, I’ve worked with so many people that say, well, if I fail at my job or I go bankrupt, my parents will stop loving me. So I’ve literally said to clients, Hey, would you be able to only to go ask your parents? What’s the dollar amount at which they will stop loving you. And they’re like, w I’m like, just ask them, like, is it a hundred thousand dollars if I lose my house? Like, what’s the point at which you give up on me because the truth is most of our parents either gave up on us early on, or they’re not gonna give up on us. Right? It’s not tied to whether we lost the house or whether we failed financially or whether we succeeded. I think it’s bigger than that, but we create these stories and we make them true. Brad (31m 50s): Hmm. So I guess if you’re journaling and processing through what it is you want, why do you want it? And then you, you come back the next day and the bullet lists look kind of cheesy. Like I want to have the biggest house on my block and someone’s remodeling down the street. So we need to, we need to expand our thing. You can maybe get a little tidbit of self-reflection there, but just, I think just going through the exercise sounds, sounds really valuable because at least you get in touch with what you’re all about and then tie it back to your life purpose. And whether you’re want to be an incessant, consumer and FOMO participant, or whether there’s some deeper values that might come to the surface and regulate your spending habits. Brad (32m 34s): And in one example. Bob (32m 36s): Yeah. And, and for me, it’s not about shaming the people choose to buy the bigger house cause it’ll impress their friends. Like that’s, if that’s their value choice, that’s great just to own it like own who you are and why you’re doing it. So when I do workshops, when I work with people, I’m trying to create a space of curiosity and safety so that I’m not shaming them going, oh my God, you’ve made that choice. Oh my, like you are a horrible person. It’s like, okay, well, that’s cool. And why what’s the benefit of that? You know? And how does that impact your relationship with your parents? Or how does that impact the relationship with your spouse or your children, like, and to just get really clear about it so that there’s no right or wrong, what you choose if you choose to have, you know, years and years of education, or if you choose to have the biggest boat or if you choose to travel or if you choose to just wear fast flashy clothes. Bob (33m 29s): That’s great. Just know why you’re doing it and own it. Like don’t pretend that you’re mother Teresa, you know, while you’re amassing, you know, all these slum apartments in New York or whatever it is like don’t kid yourself just be real. Brad (33m 43s): Well. I mean, some of that stuff is unspeakable for the most part. And just, just giving it the light of day that maybe you do care about the, you know, the head turning when you’re driving a red Ferrari, which I hear doesn’t get very good gas mileage. So there must be some other, you know, items involved. And plus there’s a speed limit on the highway. That’s why I always wonder about these Lamborghinis and Ferraris. I mean, I like looking at them too, but it’s like, wait, I can only go 70, 75. And so can you, so, you know, my Prius is going to is going to rock your world. It’s going to be side by side in the, in the lane on the four oh five, come on. Now. What’s the, what’s the other reason for, for going there. But if you bring it, bring light to it. Brad (34m 24s): Oh my gosh. You know, I was always picked on in high school. I was the smallest skinniest geek. And so now I’m going to drive a Lambo and everyone gets to look at me. I love it, man. That’s right. Don’t judge it. You can, if you want under your breath, but we know people are allowed to personal expression and all these things that come from consumption. Bob (34m 44s): Absolutely. And there’s so many, you know, I was on, I did a radio show a couple of years ago and they had people calling and this woman called in and her literal question was she was trying to figure out the amount of money in the prenup that she should put in for when her husband cheats on her. And she wanted me to give her a dollar value. And, and I said, well, has he ever cheated on you? No, but you know, he probably, well, my friends have all told me. He probably will. And I said, well, I think you have a bigger conversation that needs to be had. It’s not about whether it’s 25,000 or 10,000. It’s about why are you going in with this belief? Because you’re probably going to have a self fulfilling prophecy. Like if you’re putting it out there that he’s going to win, you’ve got to write it all in. And you know, and so, but that was again from her, it was like, oh, I just need to know the number because all my friends say he will cheat. Bob (35m 27s): So I just need to know, is it 15 or is it 20? Brad (35m 29s): She’s trying to close the deal on the live radio show. Come on now. Bob (35m 33s): That’s right. That’s right. Brad (35m 35s): Oh my gosh. So speaking of self-fulfilling prophecies, I wonder how you feel about the world of manifestation spirits or psychology where you fixate on the giant house with the cars parked in the driveway. And I don’t, I don’t mean to be little it cause I’m interested in the topic and I’ve had some experts on there who are explaining in great detail, how this works, Jack Canfield, you know, respected people, Joe Dispenza. So I wonder what your take is on that, where you can, you know, spend time and energy visualizing the life that you want and then taking the steps and seeing if that works out for you, I guess. Bob (36m 14s): Yeah. So I am, you know, in moderation, like I definitely believe affirmations and mantras are great. You know, when I start my day and I’m walking with my dog, I do my, you know, I am worthy. I’m grateful. And I, and I do all those mantras. But I know there’s a lot of people that think, well, if I just say I’m worthy, I’m worthy, I’m worthy. I want a big house. I want a big house. I want a big house. It’s probably not going to manifest. You know, you have to do some work. Like you want the biggest house on the block. You probably going to have to like earn some income. It’s not just going to drop out of the sky and the Mercedes isn’t going to show up under your pillow, if you just keep going. But I wanted, you know, it’s the secret, I’m just going to keep chanting and for it to come, I don’t believe that that happens. Bob (36m 57s): I do think though, that if we can imagine being in the house and a lot of athletes do this, imagine throwing that pitch, imagine finishing the crop, you know, crossing the finish line as the winner, playing that match to visualize it. They’re, you know, scientifically they’ve proven that it’s almost the same as experiencing it live when you envision it, when you feel the feelings. And so I think there is value in all of that, but to just sit there and say, I wanted, I wanted, I wanted, it’s going to show up. It’s going to show up. It’s I, I don’t think that it will. I think you have to do the work. You have to be proactive in your financial relationships. You can’t just sit back. You know, I always say, don’t wait for your ship to come in and go out and build a ship. Bob (37m 38s): Like, you know, but you can see the ship and you can get, it’s gonna be a beautiful ship. You have to participate. And I think that’s a key ingredient that’s missing a lot of times from some of these folks that are just like, just imagine it just chant for it and it’s going to come. And actually when I am doing my affirmations of like, I’m grateful, I’ve, I’ve got abundance. You know, I want to feeI like it. I want to vibrating in me. I want to feel it like, and you know, so I do think for people that are in that mindset of like, I can’t have it. Yeah. You can, you are worthy. You’re deserving. You’re creative. Those things are great because we sometimes need that self-talk. We have to actually show up and do the work too. Brad (38m 20s): Hmm. And maybe some of that work might be to become comfortable imagining the life that you want. Because I asked, as I asked earlier, I think some of us have these hidden repulsions of, of, of wealth and consumption because we’re, we’re high-minded and we, we feel like the, you know, they’re the undeserving and the undeserving, the needy are still out there, you know, homeless in, in the city of LA has a huge problem. And then they’re building a hundred million dollar mansions and something’s terribly wrong with that. Bob (38m 51s): And I don’t want to be, you know, guilty of, of, of trafficking in that. And so you kind of sabotage in order to protect your morality or something like that. And you know, it’s funny that you mentioned that, cause I, I sometimes have a beef with, and maybe not just LA, but you know, I think that’s true. I think that there are people out there saying, look, I don’t want to be that rich person. Cause I’m, I I’m, I’ve got these morals, but at the same time, half these people in LA are like, could you get the homeless person out of my view? Cause I’m trying to connect with my chakras. And I’m really trying to get in touch with my, and this, this homelessness stuff is really just sort of like it’s uncomfortable and right. Bob (39m 35s): So there’s a real disconnect that we’re all busy. So busy being like self-aware as we step over the dead bodies. And so there’s still a disconnect there, but you know, you can walk through the marina and people say, oh, all these rich people that live here. Yeah. It’s not great. These people, like I live with it and go, yeah, I want to have one of those boats. When I do workshops, who wants to be rich? Me, me, me who hates rich people. I hate rich people. Right. We’re so conflicted because we hate them, but we want to be them. Brad (40m 6s): Yeah. Well, if it were me, I’d be more benevolent. See? So it would be okay if I could, if I could reach my dreams. Bob (40m 13s): Yeah, absolutely. Like I want to live on the big boat, like why not? But I also want to be human. And I want to remember that there are people that don’t have that. It doesn’t mean I have to beat myself up and punish myself and say, well, the rest of the world doesn’t have what I have. Therefore I should have not, no, I can still enjoy my life, but I can also have compassion, empathy, gratitude, appreciation. I can give back. And so I, you know, those people that are in that middle part saying, I wouldn’t have the boat. Cause that’s, there’s, there’s poor people in the world. What are you doing? What are you doing in the world to help more people? What are you actually doing instead of speaking to actually change what’s going on. Brad (40m 56s): Right. Right. And if you’re taking your valuable Ivy league law degree and working at a nonprofit, then you can stand proudly and feel like you’re living your life purpose. But the rest of it is just, it’s just blather. Stepping over. What was that listeners to stepping over the bodies while you’re trying to get in touch with your chakras. Oh, okay. Something’s interesting with that picture there. Ah, so you titled the book, The Money Nerve, and I’m wondering why you called it that and maybe get into some of the content that we haven’t covered in our wide ranging wonderful discussion to date here. Bob (41m 35s): Yeah, absolutely. So for me, our money and emotions are tied in our bodies and we carry all our emotions. Right? If, you know, people have heart attacks. People get ulcers over things and it’s physical. And so I wanted to really connect that piece when we win the lottery. When we get 10 bucks, we’re like, oh my God, I got it right. Or we get an extra, a bonus check. We weren’t counting on. We’re like, ah, that’s a, we, we euphorically feel it. Like we feel it in our body. Same thing. When you get turned down at a store with a credit card or your bank account got overdrafted because you forgot to transfer the money or you didn’t have the money. You’re like, ah, I’d get a vomit. Right? Those are visceral reactions. Bob (42m 16s): It’s in the body. It’s physical. And so for me using the money nerve is like, what are those trigger points that we feel when we, you know, barrel over or where like when it comes to money stuff. Brad (42m 30s): And so what’s the, what’s the prescription there? What do we do when we have these, I guess, unwanted emotional attachments to our spending, investing consumption habits. Well, so, you know, like I said, at the very beginning get conscious, right? The first thing is we have to get conscious, oh, I’m doing that. Ah, and so we have to get really curious, wow. I seem to always overdraw my bank account. I said always saving money. Oh, is that interesting? I’m never able to save up for a house, whatever those things are, you know, always got credit card debt and to get really curious. Well, isn’t that interesting? So we’ve got to get conscious first and then we have to decide, wait, is this what I want? Brad (43m 11s): Or do I want something different? You know, I have a lot of friends that are, oh, I can’t get my acting career off the ground. Bob (43m 17s): I’m so broke. I can’t get my headshots. And you just put $3,000 on a trip to Cabo last week. What are you talking about? You’re broke. Right. So I try and get them to rephrase it. Oh, I’m just choosing to do things different than what I say that I want. Right. I’m, I’m choosing to be indulgent instead of being mindful. So we’ve got to get really conscious and then really check out what’s going on. It doesn’t mean like when I talked to the IRS, I always get angry. I, I just, I get angry, you know, kind of like you’re stupid. Even if I don’t say it, I think that’s what they pick up on. So I say, just hang up on me a lot. Like I have a staff person call because I get triggered. Bob (43m 58s): It doesn’t mean that I fixed it and I need to work on my anger management with the IRS. But it doesn’t mean like if I know this is something that is still really triggers me, I find solutions that make me feel better. I let a staff person, who’s not emotional make those phone calls for me so that I can get the result I need for my client and not have my heart and blood pressure raised because I’m so annoyed, you know, at their perceived stupidity on my part. Right. So we don’t necessarily, we, if we know we’re a spender, we may always be compulsive. Like I got to spend, I got to spend, but we can at least hiccup and say, do I really need that today? Or I won’t make a decision until 24 hours. Bob (44m 40s): And then if I still need it. You know, delay yourself a little bit delayed gratification. Brad (44m 46s): Yeah. I’m really good at that. Bob. It’s usually 24 minutes though. I could switch to hours. That would be a nice step in the right direction. Yeah. I’m usually hitting up, you know, 19, 20, 21, 24 minutes. Oh, I really thought about this. I really need it. Bob (45m 2s): So you’re, I came from at a big family. We didn’t have a lot of money. So I came from scarcity. Right? So even now I love to have six months worth of groceries in the pantry. When I go to somebody’s house, I’m like, is there food? Is there food? Is there Bob? Like just in case now I’ll probably have that forever, but at least I can now laugh about it and go, oh, here’s crazy, Bob, that things that six months of food supply is just barely going to cover it. So I don’t take myself out, but I’m also aware, oh, okay. That’s where that comes from. I, you know, childhood didn’t have a lot of choice and you know, that’s something I’m still working on. Brad (45m 39s): Right. At least you’re self aware of it. And then when it comes to things that you know is against your programming, let’s say putting aside money to make investments and amassing wealth, rather than just being the guy who who’s, who can’t loan your money, what happens there? You, you call it into your awareness and then you just, you take action against your programming or something? Bob (46m 2s): You, you know, so like for the person that says I don’t like to save. So for me, for awhile at my story was, oh, I don’t have enough money to save because I’ve got to spend everything. Cause there’s just not enough of it. So what I did was I set up seven different bank accounts online that I couldn’t access immediately. And I started having 25 bucks, 50 bucks, 10 bucks every week would come out of each of the different accounts. So, you know, I was going to spend it anyway. But now that it’s already been pulled out, I can’t spend it. So I ended up having these bank accounts all of a sudden, oh, I’ve got $4,000 in that bank account. Oh, all of a sudden that one has 2000. And so I sort of tricked myself because I had the money to come out. As soon as my paycheck would go in and the money would just start going to all these different places. Bob (46m 47s): So then that way I wasn’t relying on myself to be proactive, to say, oh, today I have money because my story was like, I don’t have any money. So I, you know, I did things that would be in my favor against my impulse of nature. Brad (47m 1s): Right. You set yourself up to succeed, just like don’t buy the cookies if you are on a diet and trying to, trying to cut out sugar. And that’s an interesting, what’s a, so this for saving would be a simple and interesting example for somebody who, even if they have credit card debt or whatever, but you, you do an automatic withdrawal heading into some account that you, you don’t touch. And then you’re going, you’re going to get savings by God, by golly, whether or not you’re, your emotions are overwhelming, your everyday purchasing decisions. Bob (47m 38s): Yeah. And you know, the other thing, because I was a credit card spend holic, I took all the credit cards out of my wallet. I only had a debit card for a period. Now I’m fine. I can sit my wallet cause I don’t use them. But, but for a period I didn’t have control. And so I only had a debit card or two just in case one didn’t work. And if the money wasn’t in the bank I couldn’t spend and all the credit cards, literally I put them in the freezer for a year. Brad (48m 3s): And, and the pictures on your website or in the book of the right next to the, the rent next to the ribs and the, not the ice cream, because we, we cut that out. But yeah, there’s all this nice freezer food. And then a pack of credit cards. I’d love it. I can envision it. Bob (48m 22s): So that, you know, so finding, figuring out where you can, where you can help yourself from self-sabotaging and then putting those, it’s just like they have these machines. Now you can put your cell phone in and it’s locked for two hours. So you can’t get on your phone. Right. Finding ways to help yourself actually help yourself. Brad (48m 40s): Very nice. I love it. And what else are you, you, you mentioned that you’re doing, or you, you were doing seminars maybe before COVID, but how else do you interact with people? Do you have consultations? Bob (48m 53s): So I, so I do workshops. I have an online course. I have, I do every two weeks, we do a money and vision process group, and people are able to, can just join with, you know, little pre-conversation before they just jump in. But we have people jump in and we have groups of people that are just talking about their money situations, their goals, self sabotage, whatever. So we do, I do those on zoom and, and then I’ve got a podcast called Money You Should Ask where I talk with people about their money struggles, very successful people. You know, they’ll come on sometimes, like I’m going to talk about real estate and I’m like, actually I want to talk about your failures. I got, I want to hear about real estate. Bob (49m 34s): So that’s a great way for people to eaves drop on other people who have had struggles that like share vulnerable stories about their programming and their upbringing. Brad (49m 46s): Yeah. So I guess if somebody is still on the sidelines, you know, building some awareness of these things or where, where there’s some flaws and in one’s relationship with money, what do you think are some, some good first initial steps to take. Bob (50m 5s): Start just doing some reading. You know, if it’s about saving, if it’s about investing, get a few books. If it’s trying to figure out if I want to like have a healthy relationship with my money, you know, check out our website, we’ve got all kinds of resources and stories and articles just to start getting people thinking, right. We have to start talking about it. So my whole, my whole mission has been when I wrote the book, when I started the podcast and doing the workshops was to start conversations about money, to help remove the stigma of shame. And, and also to let people know that they weren’t alone because that came up in every workshop, whether it was a 10 week workshop or a weekend workshop at the end of it, people would say, I thought I was the only one. Bob (50m 49s): Oh my God, it feels so good to know that these other 20 people had the same belief. There’s something refreshing about that. Like to know that, oh my God, everybody, like I thought they had it so good. Ah, they’re struggling too. They’ve got beliefs, limiting beliefs that they run aware of. So I would say, start doing some reading, start doing some journaling because journaling for me is a really key component because we can sort of look back and go, oh my God, I can’t believe I thought that, or I can’t believe, I still think that. And, and it helps us just trace the journey and it’s private so you can write whatever you want. Bob (51m 29s): I think those are great places to start. I think getting an accountability buddy, finding somebody that you can actually talk to without being shamed for your insecurity around money or your missteps around money. Actually find somebody that will go. Yeah. You know what? You’re still a good person. When I was first doing comedy, I would always take a friend with me so that if I bombed, at least when I walked out in the audience, one person would say, Bob, that wasn’t a great set, but I love you. Oh yeah. I just needed to know that Brad (51m 60s): High five for getting up on stage man credit too. Yeah. Credit to you. I didn’t laugh, but you know what? You’re really brave. Bob (52m 5s): Yeah, exactly. So that do the same with money. Find somebody that will rally for you and you rally for them. Brad (52m 13s): Well, especially a mentor type figure, which people talk about this all the time. And I’ve experienced this myself where people who’ve really become successful are by and large, quite open and willing to share secrets and insights and they just need to be approached. And it’s, it’s kind of cool because if someone’s been there and done that, especially someone like your podcast, guests who might’ve been, you know, nothing but good luck is great, but most people have taken their knocks and learn from experience, especially failure and pick themselves up and got back on the horse and road to success. Bob (52m 50s): Yeah. And I, you know, people will say, oh, you’re so lucky. Or they were so lucky. You look at most of those people, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of hard work involved and people that are lucky. Brad (53m 2s): For sure. Bob (53m 4s): So I just, people used to say to me, you’re so lucky, you’re a CPA. And I’m like, well, you know what? I didn’t get it out of a cracker box. Yeah. Brad (53m 11s): There was a test involved. Bob (53m 14s): Yeah. I did some tasks. I did some schooling. So I did actually have to bust my butt.You know. yeah. I’m fortunate and I’m grateful. I’m lucky I’m not so sure. But it’s, you know, we, we have to show up if we want to have the life we want. Brad (53m 30s): Well, your business model sounds really cool where you’re, you’re doing CPA services for a client, but I I’m guessing that you’re probably digging a little deeper than the average CPA who’s banging out a tax return and send in a bill. And I suppose that’s to the greater good, or to your life purpose to where look, I’m going to help you count your money and organize it. But also let’s talk about, you know, these four boats that were purchased on the credit card last year or whatever the story is. Bob (53m 58s): Well, absolutely. And you know, the thing is because I went through my own shame around money and being the CPA that couldn’t do the investing and all these things early on, because I just didn’t have that teaching o support. You know, a lot of clients were coming. They go, you must hate me. You must think I’m so stupid. I’m your worst client ever. And I’ll say, listen, the reason I could sit across from you and give you this advice, because I’ve done it all, I’ve made all the mistakes you’ve made. I haven’t done it perfectly. I can have compassion for you because I had a lot of shame in some of the choices that I made. And so I actually can, I can relate to what you’re saying. I resonate with what you’re saying. And I think that makes people feel a lot safer than me sitting there going you’re so stupid. How could you not save? Bob (54m 39s): don’t you don’t you get the memo put away. Like, I don’t want to come from that place because I knew better. And most of us know better. We just don’t do it. Brad (54m 51s): Whew, most of us know better. We just don’t do better. But taking those, taking those baby steps, I like the idea of journaling, especially when you can see after you, I guess, come back from your vacation binge and you’re, you’re, you’re looking at your credit card statement and there’s some journal pages to go along with it. That could be a really nice experience to it, to heighten the awareness and maybe not, not so much take the emotions out of it, but kind of connect the emotions more deeply. So we, we can, you know, possibly change behavior in the future. Bob (55m 27s): Absolutely. And I can tell you, when you go on vacation, you’ve already paid for an advance. Unlike the first few vacations I took where I had to look at my credit cards. It’s so much nicer coming back and knowing that trip’s already paid. Brad (55m 39s): Right. And I think that’s a good point. I know we gotta wrap up, but there’s, I can identify another pattern where, you know, you’re, you’re making a big purchase or an indulgent purchase and feeling guilty about it at the same time. And so you’re playing this little game where you’re not truly appreciating the experience of the expensive meal or the expensive car that was outside of your budget. And I feel like it’s, I’m talking to myself also is like, if you’re going to do it, be clear and enjoy the crap out of it, or don’t, you know, don’t, don’t plunge or don’t make the big, risky investment, unless you’re all in with the mindset to go along with your, you know, your big swagger. Bob (56m 22s): Absolutely. Absolutely. If you’re going to go in, enjoy it, like have fun with it. I love I’ll spend lots of money on sushi. I feel the same in that, but you know, spending at lunchtime, I’m like, I, can I get it for five bucks? You know, that’s, that’s like, everybody’s like Bob lunches are not $5 in LA get over it. Right. But I’m like, I hope I hope, but when I go and spend the money, I enjoy spending it. Brad (56m 44s): Yeah. And speaking to that bargain hunting, I’m gaining the insight in my life that the amount of time and energy it takes. And if you put a dollar figure on your hourly, I mean, you have a dollar figure for your, your CPA services. So you know what you’re worth. And if you spend 27 minutes on hold, trying to correct things with the shipment that came at the wrong size, you’re better off throwing it in the garbage literally. And that one for me is I’m trying to own that one. Bob (57m 11s): Yeah, absolutely. And that’s, you know, and I know we’re wrapping, but that’s that, that costs, we have a cost sung, sunk cost bias. Brad (57m 22s): Law school. Yeah. A year and a half into law school, man. I can’t quit now. Bob (57m 27s): Yeah, you can, if you hate it. Yeah. Of sunk, Brad (57m 31s): Sunk cost bias. Tell us a little more about that. Bob (57m 34s): So that’s where we, we continue going down a route. We don’t, we don’t, we keep paying the car payment. We keep doing whatever it is. Cause we’re like, well, we already put some money into it. Even though the reality is cut it short, like sell the car at a loss and move on or stop spending 80 hours trying to fix this video when you could pay somebody else to do it in an hour. But we’re like, no, no, but I’ve already put this energy into it. And it would be such a waste. No, it’s actually more of a waste if you don’t just stop. But we do, we have this sunk cost bias where we think we have to finish it out. Like stay the course. And often we don’t know that we’re actually allowed to change our mind, stop and move on to something that’s more healthy or benefits as better. Brad (58m 17s): Hey Bob, are you still doing stand up or where do we stand with that? You know, I, well, COVID sort of been rough and I was doing stand-up at the club, but because I’m a CFO, sometimes I walk off stage and they’re like, Hey, can you sign a check? So that wasn’t quite so fun. So I could Bob (58m 32s): That could go into your act somehow I think, wait. Yeah. So I’m actually, yeah. As soon as this COVIDs fully over in LA, I’m going to find me a coffee houses in low places where I just, I love to do comedy. I don’t need 8 million people adoring me. I’m happy with 40 people chuckling with their, with their cup of coffee. So yeah, I’m going to be back up and I’m looking forward to it. And you know, for me, I just like connecting with people and hoping that I can help shift a little bit in their beliefs about themselves and about their money relationships. Brad (59m 2s): Now, do you put that into your act? Is your, is your specialty crazy consumption habits or what have you got? Bob (59m 9s): You know, I, you know, for a long time, I actually, a lot of self-deprecating humor about, you know, my finances and not, you know, I’m a CPA that can’t pay anything and just playing around with that, that I had credibility, but no legs to stand on really. So I, I share all that. I share about my frugalness and like how I love to count things. Brad (59m 36s): A real standup pro getting vulnerable up there and making us laugh. I love it. Bob Wheeler, The Money Nerve is the book. Tell us about the website and the online course, how we can sign up. Absolutely. So it’s The Money Nerve, not nerd, NERVE. I’m a nerd, but yeah, the money nerve you can reach out to me. The website has the online course. It’s got the podcast, it’s got all kinds of great blogs and articles and tools that people can use to work on themselves. It’s got information about the biweekly money group that we do. Process group, and there’s just a lot of resource there’s. So feel free to reach out. We love chatting and interacting with people. Bob (1h 0m 17s): Thanks for listening everybody. Thank you for listening to the show. I love sharing the experience with you and greatly appreciate your support. Please. Email firstname.lastname@example.org with feedback, suggestions and questions for the Q and A shows, subscribe to our email list of Brad kearns.com for a weekly blast about the published episodes and a wonderful bimonthly newsletter edition with informative articles and practical tips for all aspects of healthy living. Brad (1h 0m 51s): You can also download several awesome free eBooks when you subscribe to the email list. And if you could go to the trouble to leave a five or five star review with apple podcasts or wherever else, you listen to the shows that would be super, incredibly awesome. It helps raise the profile of the B.rad podcast and attract new listeners. And did you know that you can share a show with a friend or loved one by just hitting a few buttons in your player and firing off a text message? My awesome podcast player called overcast allows you to actually record a soundbite excerpt from the episode you’re listening to and fire it off with a quick text message. Brad (1h 1m 32s): Thank you so much for spreading the word and remember B.rad.