Scott Nelson is the co-founder of Joovv, makers of photobiomodulation devices, aka red light therapy. If you have biohacking fatigue by now, don’t worry. Red light therapy is a simple and scientifically validated way to improve cellular function and will help you get in closer alignment with your circadian rhythm.

In this show, you will learn a nice overview of the different types of light on the UV spectrum, the disastrous impact of spending an average of 90% of our time indoors under artificial light, the importance of minimizing blue light exposure after dark, in favor of yellow/orange/red light sources, and the therapeutic benefits of exposure to the correct spectrums of both visible red light and (invisible) near-infrared light.

You may have seen small red lights used in beauty salons for years – because they are known to help fight wrinkles by stimulating collagen production and speeding the healing of damaged skin. But the big success here is that red light exposure has been proven to enhance mitochondrial function – essentially you get better at generating cellular energy and clearing out metabolic waste products from your cells.

Going from handheld wands to total body red light therapy is definitely cutting edge, and worth checking out – especially for the benefit of improving your circadian rhythm alignment when you use near sunrise or sunset. In this show, you will learn a nice overview of the different types of light on the UV spectrum, the disastrous impact of spending an average of 90% of our time indoors under artificial light, the importance of minimizing blue light exposure after dark, in favor of yellow/orange/red light sources, and the therapeutic benefits of exposure to the correct spectrums of both visible red light and (invisible) near-infrared light.

Exposure to the correct wavelengths of visible red light (~660nm) and near-infrared light (~800nm) helps your cells produce more ATP energy and also to clear waste products more efficiently, by mobilizing nitric oxide trapped in the mitochondria and allowing oxygen to return to the cell and increase ATP production. This is so beneficial today because our cellular function is under assault by crap like EMFs at a level unlike any other time in human history.

We necessarily get a little sciency at times to help you understand the different forms of light on the UV spectrum and how they impact health, but don’t worry—this show is great for the casual listener who is looking for simple, straightforward, sustainable ways to improve health. After all, a five-minute session each day is all you need to succeed. Scott’s Joovv operation is dedicated to education, so visiting their website is an excellent first step, and then you can decide for yourself if you want to try the product. As listeners may be aware, I have been an enthusiast of red light therapy for close to three years now, but I have used a handheld device for the specific purpose of optimizing testosterone production (yes, the wand is applied down the front of my pants!). After more reading and research, I decided to go all-in with full-body red light therapy. There are not many health optimization strategies that can deliver undisputed results with absolutely no negative side effects, so consider learning more and trying out red light therapy.


Photobiomodulation is known as red light therapy that benefits cellular repair. [03:29]

Exposure to this red light therapy can be a couple of times a day. [07:48]

There have been very few negative comments about this therapy. [09:49]

We spend 90% of our time indoors which is the blue light which is really artificial light. [11:28]

Our bodies respond differently to different wavelengths of light. [13:31]

If we are working in an area with nice window exposure to outside, is the window interfering with our healthy exposure to sunlight? [16:23]

The warmer the color at night in terms of oranges and reds, the less disruptive it is to your, your circadian rhythms. [19:57]

We are talking about the therapeutic use of red and near-infrared products as well as candlelight and orange glasses. [21:28]

These wavelengths of red and near-infrared light help the mitochondria of our cells produce more energy. [24:32]

There is research on the impact of this therapy on cancer patients and people wanting fewer wrinkles. [27:23]

Why are we only hearing about this now? [29:26]

Someone who is interested in this can learn what is best for their own therapeutic window.  [31:47]

How is this different than an infrared sauna? [34:12]

Is there a do-it-yourself way of getting these benefits? [37:44]

What about ocular health? [42:48]

Our cells respond very favorably metabolically to both the ketogenic diet and red light therapy. [45:51]

There are many devices available; all sizes and prices. [51:00]

Is there some way to kind of mitigate the damage by spending some evening exposure time in front of the red lights? [53:07]



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Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad: 00:08 Welcome to the get over yourself podcast. This is author an athlete, Brad Kearns, discovering ways to be healthy, fit and happy in hectic, high stress modern life. So let’s slow down and take a deep breath. Take a cold plunge and expertly balanced that competitive intensity with an appreciation of the journey. That’s the theme of the show. Here we go.

Brad: 03:29 Hey, it’s time to learn about photo biomodulation. Also known as red light therapy, which has become an increasingly popular health practice in the, uh, bio hacking ancestral health scene. However, it’s been used for many, many years in the beauty salons with tremendous research and scientific support for the wonderful cellular repair benefits of exposing yourself therapeutically to the proper wavelengths of red light and near infrared light. So we’re going to talk to an expert by the name of Scott Nelson, who is the founder of JOOVV red light therapy company. That’s J O O V V. and their website is a wonderful resource because they’re really focused on education. So you can go over there, learn a lot about the science, the rationale, of course they’re selling products and all that great stuff. But what we want this show to be about is just the educational aspect of something that could really, really enhance your health, especially as it relates to recalibrating more closely with your natural circadian rhythm, the rising and the setting of the sun. So let’s learn all about red light therapy with Scott Nelson coming to you from the beautiful Southern California town of San Clemente. Here we go.

Brad: 04:48 Scott Nelson, cofounder of J O O V V. I’m so excited to get you on and talk about the wonderful world of photo bio modulation. And I feel like from the email exchanges we’ve had that you have a, a windup, uh, button on your back. I’m so, I’m gonna, I’m gonna wind you up and you’re gonna tell us all about this exciting world of red light therapy.

Scott: 05:13 That’s funny. I’ll wait for you to kind of pull the, pull the string, Brad, but it’s a, you know, joking aside as a pleasure to be on the show and really looking forward this conversation. Um, I think it will be, be be an interesting topic to explore with the, with your listeners,

Brad: 05:26 Right. So I’ve become a fan in recent years, just reading the research and hearing, uh, the prominent, uh, enthusiasts on the podcast. Uh, I got myself a little handheld wand and I, I like using that. And the, the, the world of biohacking is a little crowded and confusing these days. And, you know, my friends that are living normal lives not into this, uh, living and breathing it like I am, uh, will scoff at, you know, certain practices that I’m doing or certain dietary things like carnivore. What are you talking about? This is crazy, you know, so when we’re trying to tiptoe into the real world and, and address, uh, listeners and people that have busy lives, a lot of stresses, maybe not the massive unlimited budget to get into all this crazy stuff. But when you’re talking about red light therapy, the, the research is tremendous. And the use in the, uh, beauty salons, which of course I didn’t know until I got into this, they’ve been using this stuff for years and years to get rid of wrinkles. So something must be, there must be something to it and then you’re going to take us all the way down the road to the, the full body use, which is so fun.

Scott: 06:31 Yeah, yeah, no doubt. It’s funny, this concept of light therapy and, um, I, I can understand if you’re new to this, this topic, I know the term you referred to earlier on in the conversation, Brad was, was photobiomodulation. That’s what academics and researchers refer to it as. But it’s been around actually for, for longer than most people may, may realize. And, uh, fairly common to see it in med spas, estheticians, kind of skincare clinics, if you will. They’ve been using this type of modality. Often, often they refer to it as LED therapy, uh, primarily for, for skin health. Right. You know, and it’s a, it’s a, a kind of a Botox alternative. Um, but the reality is the benefits, the health benefits go, uh, go much broader than just skin health.

Brad: 07:10 That’s great. Everyone wants their skin to look great, uh, you know, better myself included and who doesn’t want, want that as as kind of we age. But, uh, um, but that,

Scott: 07:18 but, but the, but the, like I said, the, the benefits, uh, the wide ranging benefits, um, are, are very extensive and all backed by a lot of peer reviewed science. So even if you’re skeptical, which I assume maybe you are, let’s, let’s, let’s take that, let’s make that presumption. I think you’ll be, you know, if you give it a chance, I think this is one of those kinds of modalities that falls within the kind of the quote unquote biohacking sphere that actually is supported by a ton of science. So hang in there and give it a shot. And I think you’ll be pretty impressed.

Brad: 07:48 Well, it’s also pretty easy. It’s not a huge ask. Uh, I’m, I’m asking my listeners often to jump into a freezing cold tub of water. We talked about that before we hit record. You guys are going forward down there getting the, the ice cubes into the ice bath so you can last longer, you or your wife. Uh, but with this red light exposure, uh, you can conveniently, uh, you know, get a unit and, and set up a sort of a short duration thing that you, you check in a couple times a day, I guess would be the recommended start out point?

Scott: 08:18 Yeah. Yeah. And in case my wife is listening, you know, we’ll listen to this. Uh, she’ll definitely beat me when it comes to length of length of time in the Cold, in the, uh, in the cold tub. Uh, but you’re right, Brad. I mean, this is the type of one, you know, if you compare this to maybe like a sauna or, or cold therapy, it’s actually much, much easier to use. It’s not nearly as kind of as, as, as stressful, so to speak. I know both of those modalities, right? Heat based therapy through saunas and cold therapy are very great. I mean, they’re, um, they’re, they’re very, very good for health, but this is something that’s, that’s arguably a lot easier to use and it’s very relaxing. Um, you know, a lot of our customers that use, whether they’re using a, a smaller, um, kind of more targeted device or one of our full body systems, uh, they, they often, um, not only receive a lot of these benefits that I’m sure we’ll talk about, but they actually really look forward to the treatment because it’s so relaxing.

Scott: 09:09 Oftentimes, a lot of, a lot of people will do sort of, you know, breath work or meditation, uh, exercises, et cetera, while they’re doing this type of therapy. And it really is as simple as sitting or standing in front of one of these high powered devices for, you know, five to 10 minutes, maybe once or twice a day. Um, if, if, uh, if you’re really, you know, if you’re really kind of looking to optimize your health, but it’s very, very simple to use, extremely, you know, noninvasive and there’s really like, there’s, it’s, it’s, you’d be hard pressed to find any downside or negative ramifications to using this type of therapy. So it’s, it’s pretty, pretty rare. So there’s lots of lots of upside and very, very down, very little downside,

Brad: 09:49 Right. So I guess you don’t have detractors out there saying, uh, this is, this is no good. It’s just all thumbs up with plenty of research supporting it, which is kind of a rare thing. I mean, even if we’re talking about eating healthy, nutritious, grass fed steak, uh, I can get a guest on here to say, Oh, that stuff will clog your pipes and kill you. So with red light therapy or sort of smooth sailing,

Scott: 10:11 yeah, it really is. And I don’t want this to sound like some type of light late night, you know, QVC commercial where, you know, we’re like, Hey man, and you’ll get bored now. Wait. Yeah, exactly. It may, I don’t definitely don’t want to come across, uh, uh, in that, in that sort of manner. But it light, light therapy, red light therapy, it really is that, I mean, you, you, you’re gonna be really, really, it’s scary. It’s going to be really hard to find a, a detractor if you can find them one at all. I mean, they’re really, the only thing that you want, you may want to be cognizant of is if you do it too much, you’ll, there is a law of diminishing returns. Just like, uh, just like anything else. But I would compare it to like water. Most people, it’s really, really hard to drink too much water. I mean, I think you could probably get to that point eventually if you, if you just are, you know, uh, extreme, uh, but, but just like water, it’s really, really hard to overuse, you know, these light therapy or exposure to these healthy wavelengths of red and near infrared light.

Brad: 11:05 Oh, I thought you were going to stay with the, um, the infomercial theme and say, if you use it too much, you’ll have too much energy and, uh, you’ll go out there, you know, like, like the old athletic performance AIDS where they say, you know, don’t, don’t do it too much or you’ll, you’ll be too strong and, uh, you know, blah, blah.

Scott: 11:23 But I think that maybe your audience would be a, would a be up to those.

Brad: 11:28 Oh man. So the thing that interests me is, you know, trying to recover from, uh, the many genetic offenses that we experience in modern life. And some of these stats that you cite, like 90% of our time is spent indoors in this, uh, absorbing this blue light spectrum. And for listeners not familiar, a blue light is this the visible spectrum on the ultraviolet scale. So when we’re talking about the white lights of a light bulb or the bright lights of any a screen, whether it’s a mobile screen, TV screen, computer screen, uh, this all is categorized is as blue light. Correct me if I’m wrong. And so we’re, we’re kind of getting this unnatural exposure to artificial light and getting yourself some red light therapy time can counteract that. And I think the sun, uh,, counts here. So, so we’re now we’re drifting all the way away from the infomercial talking about getting sun exposure and then also finding ways to increase your exposure of that beneficial light source.

Scott: 12:29 Yeah, and that’s a great intro or maybe a great transition to talk a little bit more kind of about, about kind of the broader light picture, so to speak. And if you, if you’ll allow me to get on the, on the soapbox for just a few minutes. Um, one of our, our big kind of missions as a company is to help people understand the importance of light, uh, S as part of the overall health equation. Everyone listening to this, you know, this podcast is familiar with the fact that our bodies are going to respond, uh, physiology physiologically or metabolize different macronutrients in various ways, right? Most of the time for most people, the overwhelming majority of people eating whole foods, low-glycemic foods, that’s a, you know, you’re setting up yourself for, uh, for success. You know, by eating whole foods. If you eat something high-glycemic, high end sugar late at night, spike your insulin levels, of course your body responds and in a, in a negative way, that’s not, that’s not great if you, if you kind of take that food example right and apply it to, uh, and kind of think within that same context, uh, and, and, and use it to understand light.

Scott: 13:31 A lot of those same parallels hold true. And what I mean by that is our bodies respond physiologically to different wavelengths of light. And you, you mentioned some of those wavelengths, bright white light, bright blue light, et cetera. Our bodies respond to those in, in a similar way to like how our bodies respond. to more vitamin D in response to sunlight. Everyone knows that it’s pretty, pretty. You know, it’d be hard to find someone that doesn’t, that isn’t aware of that, that kind of concept. But it are these ways, these different wavelengths of light or like different macronutrients and how our bodies respond to them and, and we respond to them at different times of the day. And so if you kind of going back to your example of like, you know, getting too much artificial light, the reality is like when we think about our modern lifestyles, we get way too much artificial light at the exact, at nearly the, the wrong times of the day.

Scott: 14:19 You know, our bodies are meant to sort of, um, we’re meant to wake up with the morning sunrise and we’re meant to sort of begin rest or begin to go to sleep with the, with the sunset. And I would venture to say over 90% of people listening to this, they don’t wake up to the sunrise and they don’t go, go, go to bed at the, at the sunset. It’s, it’s, it’s, they’re in an office and a commute, et cetera, you know, during the daytime hours, uh, with, with no sort of exposure to them, healthy, natural light. And then when they get home from work, uh, and the sun is set, you know, that’s when the TVs come on. The mobile screen, time increases, et cetera, can be, you know, you’re on your laptop, maybe working late at night, et cetera. So you’re exposed to all of this artificial, bright, bright light at night, which negatively disrupts or negatively disrupts.

Scott: 15:03 It does disrupt your circadian rhythm and it tells your body that you need to be wide awake when in reality you need to really begin to prepare yourself for sleep when the sun is set. And so we’re living in this world. I guess my, my, my point and trying to wrap up this conversation is we’re, our modern lifestyles don’t lend themselves very well to, to exposure to healthy wavelengths of light, you know, and.

Brad: 15:25 wavelengths at the healthy time. You got it right?

Scott: 15:28 Yup. You got it. That’s it. That’s, that’s, that’s a great, like, I don’t want to say caveat, it’s, it’s equally as important, right? Is, is how exposure to healthy wavelengths of light at the, at the right times as you, as you pointed out. And so if you’re kind of new to this concept, I think kind of starting there, starting kind of with those foundations that Hey, be more aware of kind of your light environment and are you exposed to enough natural healthy light during the day? Are you exposed to too much bright white artificial light at night? That kind of stuff can really disrupt your, your natural biological processes and light therapy are red and near infrared light therapy is actually a great way to kind of supplement your, your lifestyle. Just like just not too different than supplementing with a protein powder or a multivitamin or something along those lines. Light using a high quality light therapy device can allow for that type of sort of, I’m using air quotes here for the listeners, light supplementation so to speak.

Brad: 16:23 So if we are, let’s say working in the office with nice window and the sun shining in a, is that window interfering with our uh, healthy exposure to sunlight? Same with a car window, train, subway.

Scott: 16:40 Yeah, that’s a, that’s a great point. And I think there’s kind of two aspects to think about is one like viewing light within kind of a healthy sort of circadian balance, so to speak, like viewing natural light even through this through like a window. That’s great in terms of helping to balance your circadian rhythm, you need that type of light. Um, it’s, it’s very healthy. It serves as a signal to the rest of your body, et cetera. I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily therapeutic per se. Um, and so although that, that exposing yourself to that type of light is great, it’s not like your body’s going to respond physiologically and produce more energy or reduce pain and inflammation or increase, you know, are a must recovery at a faster rate, et cetera. But it is going to be healthy in terms of just, you know, an overall balance to your circadian rhythm. Um, so does that, does that kind of help answer, answer that question?

Brad: 17:28 Sure. And I guess I would wonder if you can describe the, the ideal experience or a modification of, you know, the, the, the forces that were put under, like having, being obligated to go in an office and work under bright lights. Cause we know that if you wake up with the sunrise, you’re out camping. Uh, the sun is hitting you on your, your skin and then you’re out there, uh, all day getting sun exposure. And then when it gets dark, you’re, you’re light sources. Now, um, you know, a fire or you go to sleep pretty soon after it gets dark. So granted, that’s the ideal. How can we sort of navigate through daily life? Of course you’re going to give a plug for, uh, getting, uh, getting a red light device because, um, we don’t have access to, um, you know, sun and going to bed after sun sunset. But uh, throw in any other, uh, optimization strategies you can think of, including if there’s any like do it yourself stuff. I mean, I think getting out at lunchtime and getting into the direct sun, cause you’ve been in windows all day is one that has a big difference for vitamin D exposure and stuff.

Scott: 18:33 Yup. So, so the, let’s, let’s set the, let’s set the stage for the I, the ideal environment, right. Is, is really mimic, mimic mimicking our ancestors. So we would ideally rise a w when the sun, when the sun rises in the morning, um, we’d be outside most of the day, right? Um, not, not maybe during peak hours where you’re going to like maybe potentially, you know, burn or be exposed to excess UV, UV light. But a healthy amount of ULA, UV light can be, can be great, especially when it comes to vitamin, vitamin D production. So we, we’d have a health, we’d spend a healthy amount of, of time outdoors and the natural sunlight. And then when the day begins to end and the sun begins to set, we would, if we need, if we still needed light for illumination, we, we’d light a candle, we’d light a fire and that wouldn’t disrupt, you know, our natural circadian rhythm.

Scott: 19:18 So that would be the ideal setting. But the reality is, you mentioned Brad, that’s not really feasible, right? For most of us. Um, you know, maybe if, if we’re living in Southern California, maybe it’s a little bit more doable, but quite honestly, when the sunsets, you know, then, you know, we’re recording this year and the, in the fall the sun begins to set pretty early. And you know, most of us don’t go to bed at six o’clock or seven o’clock at night. So let’s talk about ways to kind of navigate these, these pathways. So I would, I would argue that, um, in the, in, in the morning and throughout the day, like bright, bright, kind of brighter light, bright blue or light, that’s not a bad thing. I mean, that’s kind of like sunlight, you know, you need some, some, some, some uh, brighter whites and blue light.

Scott: 19:57 I mean, that can be good. That’s healthy for commercial, Acadian rhythm perspective. Um, but really where you really, where you want to focus is on, in the evening hours. And so when it, when it comes to like the, the sun beginning to set and you and you, you still need light to illuminate your life. I would, I would, I would say one is pick up a pair of blue light blocking glasses. Those are really cheap and you can pick them up for 50 bucks, 50 to a hundred dollars depending on where you get them from. And where are those at night. That helps block out some of that bright blue light. So it’s not nearly as disruptive to your circadian rhythm. Instead of using artificial bright blue or white light in the evenings, you know, instead of flipping on the light switch or something like that, you use something else.

Scott: 20:35 Like I know there’s a, there’s a fair number of these, like Casper the mattress company even recently rolled out a glow light to help illuminate, you know, your room that you can dim with more warmer, uh, colors that are, they have a different temperature. So the more warmer the color at night in terms of oranges and reds, that’s less disruptive to your, your circadian rhythms. So that’s, that’s a, that’s another easy step. And then, you know, another one would be, you know, incorporating a light theme, a high quality light therapy device into your routine. Most of us don’t have access to a lot of natural sunlight during, especially during the winter months as an example. You just, it’s just hard to come by. So we didn’t, we get less and less of those healthy wavelengths of light red and near infrared light specifically. And you need just a good supplement. You need just like a multivitamin or a vitamin D supplement. You need something to kind of support your lifestyle. And so investing in a, in a high quality red and near infrared light device can support kind of that, uh, uh, those efforts.

Brad: 21:28 So just to clarify here, uh, we have this category of the blue light spectrum, uh, sunlight, bright indoor lights, screen lights, and then we’re talking about the therapeutic use of red and near infrared, like, like, um, a product. And then we’re also talking about the candlelight and the orange glasses and the orange, light bulbs. So, uh, kind of walk us through those distinctions. And I, I’m guessing that, um, anything on the orange yellow, red side is going to be less offensive to circadian rhythm. Uh, but then when we get into the distinction between this specific wave lengths of the where you get the cellular, uh, benefits, I’d love to learn more about that. And then, uh, knowing that the, you know, the candlelight, the, the orange light bulbs are kind of stand alone ways to just light up your home without a disrupting circadian rhythm.

Scott: 22:22 Yup. So, so you’ve got really, you’ve got, I would kind of consider it in two different buckets, right? And hopefully you can kind of visualize here with me if you’re listening. One is kind of this, this essence of you using light kind of within our modern lifestyle, kind of a lifestyle approach to lighting. The other one is this therapeutic kind of this therapeutic modality. When we focus on the lifestyle or think about the lifestyle kind of buckets so to speak, it’s exactly what we kind of, we, we just, we just covered thinking about light within the context of your, your environment. So bright white, bright blue light in the mornings and during the day, that can be great. It’s, it’s fine. It’s not really disruptive as you’re creating rhythm. In fact, you need it. It’s a signal to your, to your, to the rest of your body that you should be awake.

Scott: 23:00 You should be alert. It’s time to work, it’s time to eat, et cetera. But, but really it kind of when it becomes, when, when we get to the evening hours, that’s where most of us, it’s a struggle. It’s a challenge. And what you want to do in the evening hours is you don’t want your body to think it’s, it’s, it should be wide awake. Um, we need to begin to preparing our bodies for restful sleep because that’s where really the magic happens when it comes to, you know, health optimization is we need quality sleep. And if you’re, if you’re blasting kind of your, your, your body and in your, if you sort of blasting yourself with bright lights in the evening hours, you’re telling your body that it should be awake. And in reality we shouldn’t. And so incorporating two things during those, those, those evening hours, the two things being glasses that can help minimize or block out of that bright light, that that’s a, that’s a pretty easy alternative.

Scott: 23:48 And then incorporating the oranges and the reds, that type of lighting at night. Um, there’s a lot of different ways that you can do this. Now whether you have something like the Phillips hues that you can, you can screw into, to a, you know, to a lamp or something like that. Um, or picking up like an ancillary kind of glow light that’s warmer in color. Those are all very, those are all much, much less disruptive to your circadian rhythm. And again, they, they in essence, by, by exposing yourself to that type of warmer lighting in the evening hours, you’re not telling your body that should be wide awake. You’re, you’re helping your body begin to relax for bedtime. So that’s kind of the lifestyle bucket. The other bucket that we mentioned is really the more the therapeutic bucket.

Scott: 24:32 So our bodies need and respond very well physiologically to red and near infrared light. The major difference between those two is is near infrared light is able to penetrate into our bodies at a deeper level. So even through bone, um, as an example. And so these therapeutic wavelengths of light red and near infrared light, they help actually ourselves, um, function at a higher level. They help our cells proves more energy and we can certainly get into the weeds here in terms of the mechanism of action, but because they help the mitochondria are the engine of your cells produce more energy more efficiently, it leads to a really wide ranging, um, uh, a number of benefits. Everything from enhanced skin health, which we touched on before, uh, increases in collagen production, faster muscle recovery, um, uh, enhancement in, in cognitive performance. So everything from a memory retention to faster, uh, um, um, memory, attention to more alertness, to faster reaction times, et cetera, reduced joint pain and inflammation. The benefits are really, really wide ranging, but it’s all because these wavelength, these very specific wavelengths of red and near infrared light, um, help help the mitochondria or the engines and of our cell engines of ourselves produce more energy.

Brad: 25:43 Yeah. I think most health enthusiasts are familiar with a mitochondria and all the attention that’s being paid to it with scientific research, this being kind of the, the basis for either a healthy, vibrant, energetic lifestyle or the, uh, stages of disease that take hold, especially, uh, cognitive decline. It’s all going down to how healthy are your mitochondria. There’s entire books about this subject. So, um, anything that can, that can help along those lines. And we know things like fasting and, uh, doing the proper workouts, including high intensity workouts will stimulate mitochondrial biogenesis. We talk about that on a sidebar in the book, Primal Endurance, how important that is for athletes. So you’re saying that the, the research on just simple red light exposure penetrates all the way into, uh, into the interior of the body, into the bones and, uh, somehow affects the mitochondria?

Scott: 26:39 It does. And we’re still learning, um, about the mechanisms of action, you know, when it comes to red and near infrared light and really, really different wavelengths of light altogether. We know the most about red and near infrared light right now. Um, and there’s, there’s a couple of different mechanisms that mechanisms of action. One is, um, you know, when you look at kind of cellular respiration, which is the process by which our cells produce more energy, your mitochondria produce more energy. Um, there’s a certain enzyme that actually responds very favorably to red and near infrared light that enzymes called cytochrome C oxidase. And so that’s a really well known mechanism. By activating cytochrome C oxidase, you’re actually able to induce a more efficient cellular energy production or ATP production. So that’s one mechanism. There’s another kind of more interesting mechanism that’s, that’s a, that’s uh, there’s a couple different papers.

Scott: 27:23 I’m one of, uh, one of which was released by Dr. Praveen Arany, recently, who was the, the, the worldwide president of, uh, I’m sorry, the, um, the president of NAALT, which is one of the bigger photobiomodulation societies. And his, his, his team actually showcased that red and near infrared light actually stimulates TGF one beta, which is a cytokine cytokine that, uh, in essence helps your immune system function at a higher level. And a lot of his work is in relation to oncology patients. And what, what’s really, really fascinating about that is what they showcased is that if our cells are healthy, they respond very favorably to these wavelengths of light red and near infrared light. But if you’ve got a, uh, a, a tumor, a cancer cell as an example, you actually get the opposite effect with red and infrared light. You actually get a pop ptosis or autophagy when it comes with a cancerous cell.

Scott: 28:13 So you actually get exactly what you want, right? Your cancer cells die. They, they, you know, you experience a pop ptosis autophagy, but your healthy cells actually function better. And so it’s really quite amazing. So, I guess the moral of the story is we’re currently, we’re continuing to, in partnership with w with leading researchers like dr Araney, we’re, we’re continuing to learn more and more about the mechanisms, which is really cool. But kind of going back to our earlier conversation, it’s hard to find negatives to this type of therapy, wavelengths of light. It’s, it’s, it’s, there’s so much upside that, uh, um, and, and so much more to learn about the, the potential wide ranging health benefits that come from this type of modality.

Brad: 28:49 Well, it seems like we might be a little behind the curve here because the ladies in the beauty salon had been working on their wrinkles for years and decades and then, uh, the, the cancer community and the advanced medical research is now just getting around to, and of course, the consumer side. I mean, you started your company J O O V V in 2017. Um, it’s, it’s become pretty prominent. People know about it if they’re in the ancestral health scene, but it seems like, uh, for some reason we’re just tiptoeing into this world rather than having it be customary use for, for decades. Why do you, why do you think that is? Why is it so new?

Scott: 29:26 That’s a really great point. Something that, that we’re continuing to try to, um, we’re hearing more and more like what’s the deal with red light therapy? Like why am I hearing more and more about it now? You know, what, what you’re telling me it’s been around a long time. But why am I just hearing about it now and why, why does it really kind of, no one know about this except for that the skincare folks? Um, really, really interesting question. Um, it’s, it’s, there’s, there’s probably a couple of different reasons for that, but I think what’s really interesting is when you look at the history kind of of, of photobiomodulation or light therapy, it has been around for quite some time. I mean, uh, centuries ago, uh, you’d often see, um, hospitals wheel their patients out into the natural sunlight for healing purposes. And it was kinda referred to as Helio therapy back then.

Scott: 30:06 Um, which is the use of, you know, full spectrum sunlight to help patients heal faster. Um, so it’s, it’s been, you know, somewhat understood, but a lot of the, the newer research, I mean, the research is really, really increasing. The amount of research has really is really, it’s very burgeoning right now. And I think a lot of that kind of stems back to NASA’s involvement in the, in the late nineties, um, they began to, um, there was some grants issued to study the use of red, red light and space to help plants grow in space actually for fuel, for food, for, for astronauts. And what they discovered is actually astronauts benefited greatly, uh, from, from red light. The plants died. But that’s okay. They didn’t have any water up there. Exactly, exactly. But, but that’s, it’s kind of like one of those, I mean, it’s not too dissimilar to kind of a lot of things they sort of stumbled upon.

Scott: 30:51 Wow. You know, this is really interesting. Our astronauts are benefiting greatly from, from red light. Let’s, let’s actually, you know, I’m using air quotes again, but yeah, let’s throw some money at this to study like the study this more. And so, um, that in conjunction with advancements in led technology, um, kind of spurred a lot of the, a lot of the research around, around light therapy for a lot of different purposes, right? Everything from skin health, which is pretty well understood to, um, hormone health, which we’re learning more and more about, um, to cognitive benefits, reductions in, in TBI and CTE. So brain, brain injuries, et cetera. So you have these like really, really interesting, you know, health, health, um, conditions, categories, um, that we’re continuing to learn more and more about. But it’s, it’s across the board. It’s almost, um, almost, almost a hundred percent across the board. We’re seeing that red and near infrared light, uh, benefits. Uh, we’re seeing benefits from these wavelengths of light regardless of the condition.

Brad: 31:47 Oh, right. And some of the research I came across had a specific number, like six 50 to six 60 nanograms or some type of distinct red light that you want to, uh, strive to get. And then, uh, discerning consumer can figure out, uh, which of these devices that cost $18.99, uh, on the internet are probably not doing, uh, giving the therapeutic benefits. So can you talk about the specifics of, uh, the, the, the measurements?

Scott: 32:17 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think with time, um, we’ll continue to learn more and more about how different wavelengths of light, um, uh, can lead to certain certain health benefits. But by and large, uh, almost all of the research around, you know, with respect to photobiomodulation, um, concerns, wavelengths of red and near infrared light between, um, about 600 and a thousand nanometers. And that’s what researchers call the optical window or the therapeutic window. And that, that, so think of it kind of, kind of going back to our earlier conversation about macronutrients. Everyone understands carbs, proteins, fats. It’s just healthy to understand that, that the, the spectrum of, of wavelengths of light is actually very broad. You know, you have everything from UV light to white to blues, to greens, yellows, uh, or oranges, reds near infrared and, and even the mid and far infrared spectrum, which is really, really broad.

Scott: 33:08 So it’s, it’s really broad. So this narrow, this very narrow window which I mentioned is from 600 to a thousand nanometers. And when you actually look, you kind of drill into that a little bit further. Um, most of the data suggests that visible red light between about six 30 and 660 nanometers is the most beneficial. And then a near infrared light kind of in the low to 800 nanometer range. So those two very specific ranges kind of in the low to mid 600 nanometer range. And then the low to mid 800 nanometer range by far and away produces the most significant health benefits. And so when you’re, if you’re interested in kind of, you know, going down this path of, of, of purchasing a, a light therapy device, really, really important to make sure the device actually produces those wavelengths of light and is supported by independent research.

Scott: 33:56 You know, cause it’s very easy for anyone to throw up a product on Amazon and you know, make it make a bold claim. But if it’s not supported by any sort of independent lab data or independent diagnostic research, it’s hard to like, it’s really hard to trust whether or not the device is actually producing the type of wavelengths that your body responds to in a healthy way.

Brad: 34:12 How would this compare to stepping into an infrared sauna? Because it seems like the, the light sources of the reddish nature.

Scott: 34:21 Yeah, that’s probably one of the most common questions that we get is how is this different than than a, than an infrared sauna. And again, I mentioned that infrared, the infrared wavelengths of light, that spectrum is actually really broad. You actually have near infrared light, mid infrared and far infrared wavelengths supplied. So that actually really broad. t ranges at any, anywhere from 800 nanometers to 20,000 so think about multiple football fields, kind of stack them. I mean it’s really, really broad. And the reason saunas, you can generate heat and a lot of different ways, whether it’s steam, whether it’s from carbon emitters that produce infrared wavelengths of light, et cetera, there’s a wide variety of ways to induce a heat for the purposes of therapy. But when it comes to infrared saunas, most of those saunas are generating mid and far infrared wavelengths. And the reason that’s important is those wavelengths of light, our bodies respond to those wavelengths of light, uh, because they, they produce more heat. And so that’s what you want in a, in a dry sauna and infrared sauna, you want, you want to heat up your body and, and, uh, and, and, and that’s sort of the, the benefit of that type of modality.

Scott: 35:20 And so when it comes to a sauna, it’s mid and mid and far infrared. But with, with light therapy or photobiomodulation, you’re really looking for red and near infrared. And I think that’s just an, a very important distinction. Sometimes it’s easy to kind of get lost in is this concept of wavelengths of light is confusing, but just keep mind that near infrared light, uh, is much, much different than far, eh, mid and far infrared or light. They have two different sort of therapeutic, uh, physiological, um, responses when it comes to our bodies. Kind of similar to like, you know, working out with weights or, you know, running a marathon, right? Both can be beneficial, you know, from, from a cardiovascular standpoint when it comes to running or, or, or the opposite spectrum when it comes to, you know, uh, working out with weights but, but completely different. That’s kind of the same thing when it comes to mid and far infrared wavelengths in comparison to near infrared wavelengths of light.

Brad: 36:12 So when we’re going for these mitochondrial health benefits, improving the energy production in the cell, which helps speed recovery, which helps get rid of the wrinkles, has all those assorted, it lowers inflammation, has all those, uh, wonderful health benefits. We’re striving for the near infrared exposure, uh, somewhere in the high, six hundreds, as far as the, uh, the nanograms.

Scott: 36:39 Yeah, yeah. You’re, you’re really looking for visible red light and kind of the low to mid 600 nanometer range. So like, you know, roughly our devices deliver 660 nano meter, red light and then near infrared near infrared in the kind of the mid 800 nanometer range. So you know, kind of eight 30 to about 850 nanometers. And those are really the kind of the two, the two kind of narrow spectrums that you want to look for.

Brad: 37:02 Oh, so that’s the, um, the near infrared is eight 30 to eight 50. And what do you call the, the 660 nanogram exposures that a different near infrared or what’s that?

Scott: 37:13 That’s just visible red. Oh, visible, visible, visible red light. Yep. Once you get into the infrared spectrum, it’s actually invisible. So you can’t see it to the naked eye. Can’t see it. Yeah. And so, um, yeah, and that, that’s the case with knee or mid and far. You just can’t see infrared wavelengths under the, you know, your, your, you know, under, you know, normal, normal, you know, biological vision. Um, but yeah, infrared, you want to look for a visible red light in the, in the mid 600 nanometer range and then, uh, invisible near infrared in the kind of the mid 800 nanometer range.

Brad: 37:44 Okay. Now we can take a deep breath and spin out of the, the techie portion of the program, but I think it’s important to get that education down and know what you’re, know, what you’re looking for. Um, so I suppose it might be difficult, uh, with a, uh, a do it yourself strategy to go buy a red light bulb. Like I just bought some heating light bulbs for the, um, the flood lights that go in, in the, uh, in the bathroom. Um, am I getting any health benefits besides getting warm in there?

Scott: 38:12 Yeah, no, I mean that’s it. That’s a, that’s a very classic kind of next step is go pick up, you know, a, a red in a red heat lamp at a, at a local department store. Like a Lowe’s or Home Depot, um, that, that’s actually a really, really, really good example. Those red there, they’re called heat lamps for a reason. So those red heat lamps actually produce mostly mid and far infrared wavelengths of light, a little bit of red. They produce a little bit of red light, but mostly mid and far, which is the reason they produce so much heat. And so that’s why it’s just really important to understand this, this light source. What kind of wavelengths is it? Is it, is it really delivering? If you, if you’re feeling heat from it, it’s most likely delivering most mostly mid and far infrared wavelengths.

Scott: 38:53 Even though it may be a little bit, you know, maybe, maybe it is visible to a certain extent. And when you, when you actually look at, we’ve got an article on our site actually that showcases this. When you look at the distribution curve, the wavelength distribution curve that’s coming from a, a heat lamp like that. It is, yeah. There’s uh, less than 20% or so of the wavelengths are actually falling in that therapeutic window that we referenced before. Most of them, 80 plus percent are actually kind of in that mid and far, far infrared wavelengths. So could be decent for, for producing heat kind of benefits for, you know, for heat therapy. Um, but, uh, but for the purposes of photobiomodulation, you’re not really, you know, you’re not getting a whole lot of a lot of benefits there,

Brad: 39:31 right. So if you’re standing in front of the J O O V V light, even the full body size, you’re not experiencing this, uh, you’re not getting heated up if you don’t, you’re not touching a red hot, uh, light bulb or anything of that nature because it’s a different different spectrum.

Scott: 39:47 Yup. Different spectrum of light. Exactly. And you, you, you’ll sense a lit like near infrared wavelengths proves little bit of heat. I mean, but when I, when I say a little bit of heat, it kinda feels like a, uh, uh, a nice kind of warm, you know, 70, 75 degree day in Southern California. That’s the type of heat we’re talking about. Um, yeah,

Brad: 40:05 it’s why there’s a Palm tree in the corner. Little, uh, that’s the thing you drew on your own. I’m sorry. Okay.

Scott: 40:11 That’s it. That’s maybe the thing you’re seeing, you know, when you close your eyes and meditate in front of it. But, uh, uh, but, but yeah, no, that’s, that’s kinda what it feels like. It a little, a little bit of heat, but, um, but certainly nothing like, uh, a heat lamp or a, an infrared sauna.

Brad: 40:25 Uh, so let’s say we’re convinced we grab one. Uh, we, we put it up, hang it up on the wall or the door. And then, uh, what do you do? You, uh, Ben Greenfield was describing how he’s working at a standup desk with no clothes on, uh, one of our, one of our choices.

Scott: 40:42 Yeah, no, that’s, that’s a, it’s interesting. We, we see a, as you can imagine, we see we uh, we see a lot of people use our devices in various ways, but the most common way to use it is, um, you want to be, I mean when it comes to any high quality light therapy device, distances, key cause and, and, and what I mean by that is you could, you know, using the example of the door as a, you know, as a, as a, as a foundational kind of a visual representation of what we’re talking about. If I’m two feet away, two to three feet away from the device, the therapeutic energy really, really drops off it. Even though it may seem like I’ve got all this red light shining on my body, surely I’m getting benefits from it. The, the actually, the jules of energy delivered to your body is dramatically lower in comparison to if you were actually close to the device.

Scott: 41:29 When I say close, I mean, you know, three to six inches or so from the device. The energy, just really, and the reason that matters is because you want a clinically relevant dose of energy, uh, T to hit your body. So your body, your body needs to absorb a clinically relevant dose of energy. If you stand two to three feet away as an example, it’s going to take forever to reach that to new point. You know what I mean? So, um, so yeah, in terms of use, it’s pretty simple. I mean, our devices, you can use them in a wide variety of ways, hang it from a door, uh, mounted to a wall. Um, we’ve got mobile stands, et cetera. But at the end of the day, it really comes down to, um, standing or sitting about, you know, six inches away or so from the device for anywhere from five to 10 minutes per treatment area.

Scott: 42:13 So if you’ve got one of our biggest systems, which we call the JOOVV Elite, it’s, you know, six feet tall by about three feet wide, you know, you’re getting a full body treatment, you know, in about five to 10 minutes. It’s really all you need. If you’re using something smaller, like the JOOVV mini, which is a, you know about the size of your laptop screen, well that’s kinda really meant more for targeted treatments so you can get a good treatment for your face. But if you, you know, if you’ve got a sore hip or a sore knee or something, you’re going to kind of need to position that device pretty close to that area. But again, kinda for the same amount of time, you know, five to 10 minutes at about six inches away and you’ll get a good clinically relevant dose of energy.

Brad: 42:48 I’m also curious about ocular health. So you know, when I’m, when I’m walking by the, the trade show floor and walking by the, the JOOVV display, you know, this, this light is pretty, pretty powerful. It’s pretty intense and you’re wondering, um, you know, a little bit, uh, there’s a little bit of sensitivity with your eyes, but it does have a, it does have a benefit to, to your eyesight as well?

Scott: 43:12 Yeah. Yeah. And actually we’ve got a great article on our site. If you want to go deeper on this topic in regards to the positive impact that we can realize, uh, when, when, um, when our eyes are exposed to these healthy wavelengths of light and it kind of makes sense because you know, the, the, the cells in our retinas have mitochondria and if we’re able to stimulate those mitochondria to produce more energy, probably higher likelihood that your retina is going to function better, your eye’s going to function better.

Scott: 43:38 So it kind of makes sense theoretically, but there’s actually some, some really nice data to support, uh, these things even with patients with that suffer from more chronic diseases like macular degeneration have seen dramatic improvements when exposed to, you know, red and near infrared light. And so it’s a really, it’s a really common question that comes up. It’s our position that, you know, if you’re using a device that passes photo biological safety testing, it’s actually could be more beneficial to just expose your, your, your eyes, you know, even if they’re closed, expose them to these, these healthy wavelengths of, of red and near infrared light. Um, but, um, you know, that’s with our devices. I mean, it, it, that’s why it kind of comes back to, to making sure that you pick a, you pick a product that passes the necessary kind of IEC photo, biological safety testing. But that’s one of the reasons we don’t really supply eyewear at this time is we, you know, we don’t need to, from a safety standpoint, um, and we would argue that you’re, you’re better off to be, you know, for your eyes to be exposed to these wavelengths of light than, than the alternative.

Brad: 44:34 So if you order a unit that comes with the free set of, uh, goggles or blindfold, you can kind of, uh, think twice.

Scott: 44:41 Yeah, I mean you may want to kind of question it, but I think the next, the most logical next question would be, well, like why, you know what I mean? I mean, that’s not to say that that device hasn’t passed safety testing. You know, I can’t, I don’t want to speak for other, other companies or the products. Um, but it is important to ask that question because you know, there’s a lot of, you know, cheap, cheap alternatives that have not passed that type of safety testing and you know, who knows, um, you know, what, what, what, what you’re dealing with there.

Brad: 45:08 Well, I suppose when we’re getting into the tanning bed or we’re familiar with these devices where you definitely want to protect your eyes, that’s because we talking about the, the blue light spectrum, which can be intensely harmful, such as, you know, we don’t, we don’t want to go out and stare at the sun either.

Scott: 45:26 Right? Right. Yeah. And, and, and again, we’re talking about different wavelengths of light. Um, right. Red and infrared by and large is very, very safe to use unless you have some type of photo sensitivity to these wavelengths of light, which is extremely rare. But you know, that’s why you were wearing eye goggles in a, in a, in a tanning bed. It’s different wavelengths of light. You know, you’re, you’re dealing with bright white and UV light in, in a, in a tanning bed, which is drastically different than red and near infrared light.

Brad: 45:51 Uh, some of these other things you mentioned to me like the, the connection between the efforts to get into ketogenic diet pattern and the red light exposure and how that, uh, benefit to mitochondrial function might, uh, turbocharge your efforts even to, uh, align with a diet. Can you describe that?

Scott: 46:14 Yeah, we actually, um, I’m glad you brought that up. Um, Brad cause we actually just wrapped up, um, a small study with a group in Minneapolis, Bristlecone Health. Um, Dr. Kelly Gibbons was, was, uh, was sort of the principle investigator with, with um, this first study. Anyway, we, we looked at, um, a full body light therapy, um, with, with both, uh, participants that were on a standard American diet and those that were on a ketogenic diet and they used a full body like therapy on a daily basis, uh, for 12 weeks. And the control group, which was on kind of a normal standard American diet, uh, the acronym I think was funny in any abstract as SAD they were on the SAD diet, which is,

Brad: 46:54 which is pretty sad, man. Very, very appropriate.

Scott: 46:58 Yeah, we looked at hormone markers and both men and men and women and women, uh, across those two, uh, those two cohorts. Um, testosterone versus estrogen and men, and then progesterone versus estrogen in women. And the S the sad group, um, actually saw us a significant increases in both progesterone and women and testosterone in women. And actually what’s really cool about that is the ratios of testosterone to estrogen were actually stayed, stayed very balanced and very healthy. But what’s interesting, what’s probably even more interesting is the, the group that was on the ketogenic diet saw even even a greater increases in their, um, in their testosterone production and then progesterone production pre production in women. And I think that showcases the, the positive synergy between, you know, a ketogenic diet and, uh, a very low carb ketogenic diet and, uh, full body, uh, photobiomodulation. And you know, if you look at kind of, if you ask the next question, which is why, like why is that the case?

Scott: 47:57 Um, it’s hard to definitively answer that right now. Uh, we just recently posted kind of an FAQ piece that Dr. Gibbons authored and, and her, her thesis is that, um, both types of modalities, right? The ketogenic, progressive, prescribed ketogenic diet, and then red light therapy help kind of reduce this idea of metabolic congestion, which you can read more about in that, in that blog post. It’s too, it’s too nerdy to talk about, you know, within the context of this conversation. But it’s a really interesting kind of hypothesis. Dr. Laszlo Boreaus, who’s a, um, a researcher here in Southern California at UCLA, uh, suggest that those two modalities are very synergistic because they help lower, uh, deterioration levels in, in your, in your cells, which kind of actually is this sort of similar to, to, um, this idea of metabolic congestion. So either way, whatever kind of way you want to hypothesize, um, to understand the mechanism of action. The end goal is that our cells respond very, very favorably, um, metabolically to both, you know, a ketogenic diet and red light therapy. And, you know, we studied hormone health, but we could have probably studied other, other health health kind of markers as well and probably seen similar results.

Brad: 49:06 Well, that term congestion is really relevant and I think a memorable, because we have all kinds of examples. I mean, Katie Bowman, the bio mechanism, writing books, like “Move Your DNA” a describing how just sitting around and having prolonged periods of stillness will, uh, elicit cellular congestion where you’re not processing energy and removing the waste products efficiently. Uh, so if you’re talking about a turbocharging mitochondrial function where they can, uh, process ATP better, that’s the energy source for cellular function, especially when we’re talking about cognitive performance where we can all know the difference between sitting there feeling drag ass with our, our hand on our head or feeling alert and energized. And this is a huge deal to eliminate any form of a cellular congestion. And I know that, um, our fondness for cold exposure, some of that research says the same thing, that that exposure to cold, uh, will, uh, stimulate the hormonal processes that, uh, improve the recycling of damaged cellular material, repairing damaged cells, uh, producing energy, all that great stuff.

Scott: 50:17 Yep. Yep. No doubt. And that, and that, that there’s so many different modalities like you mentioned. Um, and another one would be fasting, right? That help help alleviate sort of this idea of metabolic congestion. And you know, if you kind of think about a busy highway, you know, in Southern California or regardless of where you live, everyone understands this, this busy highway. If you have busy, you know, highways in your cells, they’re not going to, they’re not going to operate as efficiently. Right. Um, and so that’s why, you know, a, a ketogenic diet, fasting, red light therapy, help, help with, um, help reduce that congestion, help yourselves operate more efficiently. Um, which is, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s really cool and it’s really cool to kind of showcase that in, in the actual, you know, clinical study.

Brad: 51:00 So Scott, I know a lot of people are familiar with the handheld wands. Uh, you know, PR pretty affordable, small purchase. Uh, I’ve been using one for a few years now and my main target area is down the front of my pants for the, uh, you know, regeneration of, uh, the, um, uh, hormonal function, trying to try to get those testosterone levels optimized. So that’s a, I guess, a targeted use on that one area of the body. So if you compare and contrast to standing in front of a large unit, I guess you’re getting just a broader benefits to all the cells that are being exposed?

Scott: 51:38 Yep. Yep. No doubt. Um, the, the, the, that the handheld device is great for, uh, kind of an entry level kind of therapy if you want to get your feet wet, great for targeted treatments, especially if he, if he, if you travel or just want the convenience of something that’s wireless and handheld. Um, the neat thing about those, the, those handheld devices we call ours, the J O O V V Go, ours produce the same amount of power or therapeutic power as our larger systems, which is, which is kinda cool. So you don’t need to use it sort of any longer per area if you will. Um, but it’s just, you know, the only difference being at treats a much smaller area. Um, if you compare that to our, our, we call them our modular system and when I say modular, these are kind of more the bigger full body devices.

Scott: 52:19 And the cool thing about our modular system is that, um, uh, you can start small, right? You can start with a, a single device, a smaller single device. And because they connect together both physically and electronically, you can add on to that device, kind of like Lego blocks. And build out a full body system over time. So if you start small and really like the therapy, like how you feel are realizing the health benefits, you don’t, you, you don’t have to kind of go all in at the same time. You can kind of add to your add to your system slowly over time, which is really a cool system and that that kind of really fits within kind of our thesis as a company. And that full body light therapy is ideal. Um, but not everyone can fork out thousands of dollars for a big system right away. And so this modular, this modular kind of concept, this modular design allows, allows people to kind of get into that full body system slower over time

Brad: 53:07 or you can slowly build out your disco dance floor cause these things are really cool just having them turned on, especially at nighttime. So with a this, given that we’re going to be blasting our eyeballs with this offensive blue light after dark, which is, that’s when you, for all of us listening, when that sun go down and you flip that light switch on, you are disconnecting with your ancestral genetic expectations for health. We all know that. Is there some way to kind of mitigate the damage by spending some, uh, evening exposure time in front of the red lights? It’s such as, I don’t know, before bed or right when the sun goes down or anything of that nature?

Scott: 53:48 Yeah, it’s, it’s, there’s no really, um, you know, definitive data in regards to when you should probably use the device. I would argue, um, if you can mimic the natural sunrise and sunset, that’s probably ideal. Again, that’s a, that’s a total hypothesis. Um, but if you want to use it in the morning, maybe use it around the time, the sunrises, you know, that’s when you’re, you’re going to probably see the most red and near infrared light. And then again, in the, in the evening when the sun begins to set, that’s when, you know, naturally, uh, the sun delivers more red and near infrared light. So those are probably the, again, hypothetical, but those are probably the ideal times to use it. But I think what’s interesting about that is a lot of people, a lot of our customers report back that, um, their sleep quality drastically improves when they incorporate this type of therapy into their daily routine.

Scott: 54:33 And then then they, you know, the natural next question is, well, do I need to use it before bed or can I use it if I use it in the morning where I get sleepy, et cetera. Um, but the, the answer to that is it really doesn’t matter because you’re, there’s pretty clear, there’s pretty, I mean, it’s early, but there’s pretty, pretty compelling clinical evidence that these wavelengths of light help your body produce more natural melatonin. Right? We all know that melatonin’s great for sleep, but if we’re, if we have a healthy circadian balance, meaning that if we’re not, uh, you know, exposing ourselves to bright blue or white light at night and our circadian rhythm isn’t, isn’t disrupted, we can increase our melatonin production in the morning and our bodies will store it, they’ll store it and then release it at the right time of day, uh, w when we begin to prepare for sleep. So my point being, you can use it in the morning, you know, your body can produce more natural melatonin. It just won’t release it, um, uh, until evening when it’s supposed to, as long as you’re not disrupting your circadian rhythm. Does that kinda make sense?

Brad: 55:30 Wow. That’s so interesting. Yeah. What a great benefit. Yeah.

Scott: 55:34 And that’s like our bodies are pretty smart. I’m used to it pretty smart that way. As long as we were not, you know, uh, uh, you know, uh, exposed, you know, as long as we’re setting ourselves up for success.

Brad: 55:46 Yeah. It goes along with the tons of sleep research, suggesting that if you wake up and expose yourself to direct sunlight, your eyeballs directly to the sunlight, no sunglasses or barrier like a window, uh, that is the first step toward getting a good night’s sleep because you’re in training your circadian rhythm and eliciting these hormonal processes, spiking serotonin and cortisol in the morning, and then setting yourself up for that melatonin release at sunset, uh, whatever, 12 hours later. So good stuff. And, and a great, great strategy to, uh, to, to use the machine because, Oh, I can imagine like, uh, you know, jet lag or having difficulty being on the schedule that you wish you were on. You can mimic sunrise and sunset with machine exposure and therefore get yourself, uh, locked into the desired circadian rhythm or fake circadian rhythm you could call it. But I’m still, I mean, your cells don’t know any different, so that’s very interesting.

Scott: 56:43 Yeah. Yeah. But if you’re, if you’re new to this kind of, this idea of circadian health, circadian biology, circadian rhythm, it’s really, it’s a, it’s a, it sounds, it may sound woo, you know, certainly sounded woo to me when I first kind of started learning about it, but it’s really, really important and I, and a lot of people just under-appreciate its impact to our overall health. But if you’re disrupting that a, if you’re not optimizing it, I say you’re cutting yourself short. But if you’re, if you’re disrupting it, which most of us tend to do that, that’s not great. I mean, you could be eating an awesome diet, you can be working out consistently, but if you’re just, if you’re getting poor sleep because you’re disrupting your circadian rhythm, like that’s not like you’re, you’re, you’re taking, you know, one step forward and two steps back all the time. And so just, you know, if you’re new to it, just take some time and read a little bit more about it. It’s the science there supports it. There is no doubt and it’s, it’s just, uh, an underappreciated aspect to our overall health.

Speaker 2: 57:34 Yeah, you’ve done a great job on your website over there at JOOVV and just give us some more details how we can connect with you. I really appreciate this, this great education from Scott Nelson co founder of JOOVV

Scott: 57:48 You make myself a sound, sound, sound too good. But uh, um, yeah, if you, if you want to learn more about this topic of light, um, we allocate a lot of our, our resources as a company to education. And so if you go to JOOVV dot com that’s J two Os two V’s, J O O V V.com. Head to the learn section on our site chock full of, of, of well sort, well, uh, resourced, uh, and well sourced, um, educational articles on a wide variety of health topics as it pertains to light. If you want to kind of more stay high level and just learn like what people are are saying about our products, about light therapy in general, head on over to the the reviews section. That’s really kind of eye opening cause you get an idea of what people are, are, uh, are reporting on in there in their own words. Um, and if you’re on social, we’re at J O O V V social on most on most channels, probably most active on Instagram. Uh, but you can find us on Twitter, um, YouTube, Facebook, uh, as well.

Brad: 58:37 Oh, right, great show. Thank you Scott Nelson.

Scott: 58:41 Awesome. Thanks Brad. I really appreciate you having me on

Brad: 58:43 Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback@getoveryourselfpodcastatgmail.com and we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop, iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to. Thanks for doing it.



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