We pick up the dialog after Dave’s interview of me where he asked me what the audience still doesn’t know about Brad Kearns. I stumbled to find an answer but as we continued talking I realized that I tend to be non-confrontational in life and on podcast interviews such that I might be giving my entire unfiltered opinion at all times. Dave makes a great argument that disagreement and respectful debate is healthy and necessary to have an authentic relationship.

The show continues at a fast pace to Dave’s breakthrough insights presented in his popular book The Imperative Habit. You’ll learn the importance of accessing the space between stimulus and response to be able to control your response. You’ll learn about the complex interplay between biology and spirituality and the importance of healthy synchronization between them. Great example: jumping in the cold tub to obtain a positive spiritual experience, in the process overriding your biological aversion to experiencing cold water. Dave’s take on happiness is that you simply need to remove the things in life that don’t make you happy, and you will be left with a default state of being of happiness. 

Dave discusses how to break free from the harmful subconscious programming that I describe in detail on my breather show covering the insights in Dr. Bruce Lipton’s Biology of Belief. We talk about the evolutionary adaptations of the human and how we need to continue to seek opportunities for personal growth in a comfortable, modern life. Yes indeed, more wild times are enjoyed every time we connect with Dave Rossi for an interview. Grab his book The Imperative Habit on Amazon.


The author of The Imperative Habit is back rethinking the notion that we should attach ourselves to the outcome rather than the journey itself. [01:51]

Maybe it’s okay once in a while to get into contention or controversy. [05:11]

Listeners are operating at their highest level of consciousness, understanding, and intelligence. [09:17]

You can have healthy debates and not have conflict. [14:10]

It’s not the event that makes you upset, it is your belief in them that does. [17:29]

Depending on your upbringing your emotions will be different.  You are programmed between the ages of zero and eight. [20:02]

Everything you like has been programmed. [24:59]

Happiness as an emotion and happiness as a state of being are two different things. [28:22]

You have the power to make choices. When you feel hungry, it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to eat. [30:45]

The brain will fool us into thinking something that’s true when maybe it’s not true. [32:23]

If you follow the seven habits in Dave’s book, you are going to be able to create inner stability and not sabotage yourself. [36:45]

Gratitude is accepting what I have. [38:14]

The more you break your biology, the more you’re going to create a reverence for other lives.  [41:19]

If you let go of the things that make you unhappy, you will be left with happiness. [49:43]



  • “Dr. David Hopkins says 78% of the population is below the positive line between positive vibrating energy and negative vibrating energy.”
  • “If you can’t say or do exactly what you want to do to make your life better, you’re not conscious.”
  • “The human body, as a biological unit, has one algorithm, and that’s survival. So, a kid playing video games is in a comfort zone, and spirituality, to me, is making choices beyond the body. It’s tough every single day when I get into that tub! But I consciously make a choice above my biology to do something that I know is good for me.”
  • “Happiness doesn’t come from things, happiness doesn’t come from anyone else, or anything external. Happiness comes from within.”
  • “Your brain is like a computer, and consciousness is the user.”
  • “Manifestation happens when you’re manifesting things for the highest purpose, and when you believe they can happen.”


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Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (1m 51s): Welcome back. I think for the third time, maybe the fourth time. It’s Dave Rossi, author of The Imperative Habit, my spiritual guide and mentor. This guy is on such an amazing and wonderful path. Rethinking all of these flawed notions that have become part of culture, where we identify and attach ourselves to the outcome of what we’re doing. That’s why I love him on the podcast. He honors the theme of getting over yourself and just being present and accepting. Remember his seven habits from his book, the Imperative Habit. Number one is accept. Number two is, do not fear the outcome. Number three, happiness as a practice. Brad (2m 31s): And his tidbit there is to remove the things in your life that make you unhappy and all you’re left with is happiness. Number four, be present. Number five, do not judge. Number six respond. Did you say respond instead of react? Yes. He did respond with love and compassion at all times. And number seven is have faith. So I think you will love the first two shows I did with him, where he talked a little more in depth about the content of his book. But in this show it feels like kind of an open mic night. We actually just kept the recording going after we did our formal program where Dave Rossi interviewed me, but I said, you know what? Brad (3m 13s): I got to keep recording. Cause every time you wind this guy up, he will unload with a stream of incredible insights. Many of them are pretty complex and in depth. So you have to reflect, maybe push the back button on the, on your recording device, your podcast, playing device and listen again. That’s what I do. Cause some of it just is really tough to grasp out of the out of the gate or he’ll make a profound comment that requires a lot of reflection. So yeah, don’t do the 1.5 or the one point sometimes beat on this show, do it at 1.0 at 1.25, at least listen, enjoy Dave Rossi. And you know, what we picked up was when he asked me on my interview, when he interviewed me, he says, what are you not revealing to your audience? Brad (3m 60s): And I finally came up with something and we’re going to get into that at the start of the show and then carry on. We’re going to bring in some insights from the amazing Mark Manson, the modern philosopher of our times. Number one, bestselling author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F**k. and his sequel book. Everything is F****d. A book about hope. I had him on the show. It was a life changing interview. And a lot of the Dave’s work is sort of aligned with this new look at spirituality, this kind of a broader perspective than the things that have brought us to present day with sort of these dated and constrained ideals in society. Yes, a wild show indeed. Brad (4m 40s): So the interview jumps into an abrupt starting point because I just pushed the record button while we were talking offline. After he finished interviewing me for that podcast. And we get into the juicy topic of what am I hiding or not being fully authentic as a podcast host. And I finally realized maybe I’m not as confrontational as some other people because I don’t like the conflict and I just let my guests roll and go with the flow and be the honored guests on the podcast. But Dave is making a great point about calling people out and having it be okay once in a while to get into contention and controversy, whether it’s in real life or on a podcast. Brad (5m 22s): So that’s the jumping in point. Let’s hear what Brad Kearns has to say when he’s backed into a corner. Oh, interesting stuff. Here we go. Dave Rossi. And then we get further into a really good groove into his major, take away actionable insights about spirituality and looking at the world and looking at yourself in a different way, much more healthy. Yeah, here we go. Dave (5m 45s): I’m not trying to change your mind. Granted, if you fight too hard for your side is now edging. Try to change their minds. So you say it once. Look, I don’t, I don’t understand it that way. I could be wrong. I may not understand entirely well, but That’s what I think right now said. You’ll never argue with your guests. I think you have to call people out on that. Brad (6m 6s): Yeah. So that, that’s, that’s what I’m hiding is that, you know, that that’s speaking my truth at the expense of being controversial and it might not be in a, a guest format because you know, I’m inviting guests that are in, in some ways contributing to the confirmation bias. I’m not going to have people on there that are extremely radical or disparate to what I believe is important. Right. Although I did try to get rip on there for a healthy exchange of a counter opinion,.But also just offering that opinion out about real life circumstances. I try to stay away from politics on the show because you can consume politics on other shows, but you know, part of me wants to WhatsApp. Dave (6m 47s): We only see a very small percentage of the light spectrum. Brad (6m 50s): Yeah. Dave (6m 51s): And how do we f*****g know what a planet looks like when we only see a very small percentage of the light spectrum? Like anything that we think we know even from science is so jaded from our minimal ability to comprehend certain concepts. So every opinion that you have and every opinion that he has is certainly completely bias to your own programming and your own way in which you’re filtering science. So it’s okay to say, I don’t understand that the same way. And that debate to me is incredibly healthy because I don’t know which way to go. I want to hear what you have to say, and I want to hear what you have to say, and I understand your programming is different. Your background is different than I understand your program is different and your background is different. And I don’t even know where my programming and background fits in. Dave (7m 34s): But listening to both of you speak about your opinions, helped me kind of figure out how it fits into my decision making process. That debate is really healthy to me. Brad (7m 43s): Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. And it’s probably, we probably have enough, you know, backstabbing and criticisms to go around. So I don’t need to slam David Goggins on my show for putting out a message that can be, you know, extremely warped and unhealthy and you know, indicative of his void in his life that he’s trying to fill by doing extreme endurance challenges and, and glorifying those which many people are drawn to at the expense of their marriage, their health, their balanced lifestyle, their role as a parent. You know, they’re out there peddling their bicycle training for the Ironman and it’s really escaping facing the reality of their life, but you’re not going to hear me say that on a show and criticize the endurance movement in that manner or the ultra runners that you know, I know, but let’s reframe that. Dave (8m 32s): I would reframe that and say has nothing to do with Dave Goggins and God bless him for doing what he’s doing. I only wish I only wish that listeners can open their minds to new perspectives and see different ways in which endurance training could also be accomplished other ways in which it could be. And that clearly he’s gaining a lot of listeners that are drawn to that one type. And I hope those listeners can open their minds and expand their programming to be open to higher levels and different levels of endurance training than just that, Brad (9m 17s): Right. Just the lowest common denominator, how much can you suffer. Dave (9m 21s): That’s kind of how I would frame that and have nothing against what he Dave says. And I don’t want to say anything insulting against his listeners. It’s just, they’re all operating at their highest level of consciousness. Let’s use your highest level of intelligence instead of consciousness or their highest level of understanding instead of the word consciousness, they’re all operating at their highest level of consciousness, understanding and intelligence, and I wish they could up level or upgrade those levels to connect, to listen, to understand and maybe apply other types of endurance training practices. Brad (9m 60s): Well, I wonder what you think of this when you frame that message. So gracefully sometimes in life, it just kind of flies over people’s heads, cause it’s not hard hitting enough and maybe we get a bigger wake up call. And of course, this is what the, the salacious news broadcasts are about is, is the shock value of the news gets higher ratings. And so, you know, here I am on my show being, making graceful, respectful commentary with all about all with and about all my guests and about all the stuff that’s going on. And I’m never really calling people out in that aggressive manner, but in my own life and my own personal life, the people who have, you know, been the most extreme in their point of view have influenced me more than more than anyone else. Brad (10m 50s): And I have great appreciation for people that, you know, get, get in my face and call out, call me out on my b******t or whatever in a manner that I would never do myself. It’s sort of like, you know, counter to how I operate. Dave (11m 3s): I appreciate your things though. I think you’re saying two things. Number one, when you say extreme you out, you, you have, when you’re defining something as something and you’re, you’re using the word extreme as a definition, you have to be comparing it to some other standard. So you’re saying, Hey, this, this guy has given me extreme advice, but that extreme advice is you determining it’s extreme based on what you think is not extreme. So that’s resonating with you. And I think what you’re also saying is that a lot of people who are extreme based on maybe the masses have a larger following and have more appeal and they’re getting more followers or more, more attention. Dave (11m 48s): And, and that is the lowest common denominator for these audiences that may, but there’s only so many people that, that are along the path far enough from the caterpillar to the butterfly that are going to speak butterfly language. And that’s okay. There might be a lot more butter, a lot more caterpillars of than butterflies. Dr. David Hawkins in his science to 78% of the population is below the vibrational energy level of positive and negative energy. 78% of the world is below the positive line between positive vibrated, energy and negative vibrating energy, which says 78% of the population to me is on the caterpillar side and butterfly side. Dave (12m 34s): And so for me that the spiritual value or spiritual rule that I want to uphold is to continue to espouse what I feel strongly about where my knowledge base sits. And I got to tone the words I use down sometimes to explain things more caterpillarist, but I’m not changing the fact that I’m shooting high and I’m asking people to shoot high. And I think you’re the same way. You can’t be Dave Goggins and speak grunt caterpillar to a lot of people that like it. You’re speaking to people that want to be athletes that want to have peak performance and that’s going to be a smaller audience. Dave (13m 18s): And the real thing is to convert the people at the lower levels of consciousness for the lower levels of endurance, understanding the low, lower levels of endurance intelligence and bring them up, the market is big to bring them up. We’re hitting this market up here and other people are hitting it down there. That’s great. Like people compare some of my stuff a little bit as like the next step past a Michael Singer or Gabby Bernstein. And certainly the Angela, the girl that I’m seeing, loved Gabby and then she’s like, yeah, you know, it’s not so interesting anymore appealing anymore because now she’s going into deeper, deeper understandings of the word gratitude. Then the way she uses gratitude, you know what I’m saying? Dave (13m 60s): It’s enough. Does it have enough teeth she’s graduating to it, more intense or deeper or understanding of consciousness or a higher level of intelligence, you know, Brad (14m 9s): Yeah. Stepping stone. Sure. Dave (14m 10s): And you can, you can have those healthy debates and not have conflict. I think you should tell yourself that. Look, I want to have a, I wanna, I want to share my view that accomplished way and see and see where that goes. Brad (14m 26s): I like it. Yeah. That’s, that’s definitely, I can strive to do that. Dave (14m 31s): I think that’s good. Yeah. Sorry guys. Look, I’m not calling you to get yes, man. I obviously love what you’re doing and love your science and I love your products, but you know, in all honesty, I got to keep it real and that may come out. So just be aware of it. Brad (14m 47s): Love it. Maybe it will come out first between me and you on the next show. I don’t know, Dave, do you get off saying that? Yeah, let’s try it. All right, man. Dave (14m 55s): No, I absolutely really, really love that. That part of it, people that I talked to that I think, and I don’t mean this in a, in a negative way at all. Just have a lower level of understanding to spirituality or consciousness. And they’ll say things to me. And all I want to say is, wow, like you really don’t understand this at all, but I always stop myself. And I say before, I think that maybe I don’t. Brad (15m 26s): WOOO love it. Dave (15m 28s): Yeah. I got to really really know I’m someone that practices this everyday. I’m like you, I’m reading every day. I’m practicing every day. I’m meditating twice a day. I’m really pushing my brain and pushing my vulnerability and surrendering and accepting and letting go and letting myself, you know, following the laws of the universe. Right. And then find someone that may be, have some reg listened to a couple of soul SuperSoul Sundays. And they’re telling me what is is, and I’m about to go, like maybe, I don’t know, maybe they are right. What could, what could I be missing? You know? Brad (16m 5s): Yeah, yeah. Dave (16m 6s): You have to go there. Brad (16m 7s): What can I learn from them? Even though they seem to know less than me, just like my example of learning from my kid, you know, the know-it-all parent throwing down the hammer and then the kid takes the hammer and redirects it a skillfully. Yeah. Those are wonderful experiences. Dave (16m 24s): Yeah. And so I think for you, that debate is good because, and I don’t, I love those debates because even if you challenged me, I would go, Hmm, maybe you’re right. I don’t know. This is what I’ve come to know, but you could be right. I will think about that. I absolutely could be. Right. I don’t think that’s healthy and Brad (16m 42s): well and actually mean it too. Cause I’m the type of person that will say that. And really I’m crossing my fingers thinking you’re so full of s**t. But thank you for that insight. I’ll think about that. But you know, it’s just like you told me the steps of, you know, I asked you, so I’m understanding, you know, John Gray’s insights to be calm, cool, collected male, emotional regulation and, and, you know, keep, keep things under control. But then what if I’m doing, you know, my, my partner does something that annoys the crap out of me, but I smile. I don’t react. I’m okay. But inside I have that reaction and you said like the next level of growth is to not have it annoy the crap out of you either. Brad (17m 24s): So not only do you not have a reaction, you aren’t bothered by it. Dave (17m 29s): The first level of growth is not saying it cause that consummates your act. And I’ll use a couple other famous people here. It was Epictetus a Greek philosopher who was the basis for Dr. Albert Ellis, his groundbreaking therapy of modern day cognitive behavioral therapy. It was Epictetus that said, it’s not events that make you, it’s your belief in them that does . .And so when you’re about to get angry, it’s a belief that, that this shouldn’t be happening to you. So the first thing we have to do, and I said this in my book is I don’t get this from Viktor Frankl. Grab that moment in time between stimulus and response where all your growth is, if you can’t say or do exactly what you want to do to make your life better than you’re not conscious. Dave (18m 21s): And as you begin to grab that moment in time, like Victor Frankl talked about in his book, the moment in time between stimulus between stimulus and response was a small moment in time. And in that moment in time, all of our growth comes from, if you can’t grab that moment in time, then you’re instantly doomed. And once you have the awareness to grab that moment in time in an argument, and then number two, think about your goal. What’s my goal to have a wonderful relationship with this person. What can I say next to meet that goal? If you can’t do exactly what you think in your heart will get you closer to that goal, then you’re not conscious. And that’s a powerful thing to have that level of consciousness. Brad (19m 5s): Yeah. You’re out of control. If you can’t, you can’t control your response. You’re a victim. You’re a victim of all the mean people in your life. You’re, you’re a victim of all these people that have wronged you in your life, Right? Dave (19m 19s): And any level of, of being bothered, this is where the emotion stuff comes in any. And I said this in my book, you know, cause effect, causes stimulus effect emotion, okay? Cause it stimulus. My wife is yelling at me or she’ll leave a towel on the floor or whatever. Any amount of discomfort that runs through your body is an emotional response. That’s biological, it’s anger, it’s disappointment. It’s frustration is jealousy. Whatever it is is only being produced because the programming in your brain, your body, your person, your upbringing can compare to the stimulus that you’re experiencing produces. Dave (19m 59s): I’m bothered. If that programming was different, you came from a poor town in India, or you came from Africa or you came from a calm Japanese home and your wife did this. You would have no emotion. Your emotion would be different if the programming was different. Brad (20m 18s): And do you believe the programming was mostly loaded between eight, zero and seven? Like Bruce Lipton and yeah, Dave (20m 26s): Liptin talks about that, but it continued. So this is what happens from zero to seven. Your operating system gets developed your lenses and then you begin to look at all new programming through those lenses. You’re constantly being programmed, but you’re programmed on the train tracks of the predominant zero to seven train tracks. I look at things negative. So your whole life is still gathering programming, but it’s on this train track Brad (20m 54s): to confirm the train track. Dave (20m 57s): Well, as any, any way you grew up say, look, the human body has one prerequisite for survival. And Dr. Stephen Hawkins said this, and what is the prerequisite for survival? Don’t say intelligence. Brad (21m 14s): One prerequisite for survival? Dave (21m 17s): Yes. Brad (21m 17s): I guess being able to breathe comes to mind. Dave (21m 20s): I mean, your species it’s adaptability. The species that is the most adaptable will survive. Brad (-): Yeah. Dave (21m 28s): But the human body is adaptable, but it also has a thing called homeostasis. And so from zero to seven, the reason why our brain is programmed, the way it is, is to survive in the environment that it’s in. It’s like a tree growing around a rock look for light. We are a biological unit looking to survive in the environment that we’re put put in, Oh, there’s a rock in my way. I’m going to grow over here and get away from this rock so I can get some light. Then we begin to change environments. And the homeostasis like, wait a minute. This is not the environment I’m used to surviving. And I need to get back to this environment. I need breaking homeostasis is difficult. We’re only adaptable to a point because we may be out of our element and survival was back in our element. Dave (22m 12s): So we fight to get back. That’s what we hate change so much as a biological impediment to survival to change. Albeit adaptability is our survival skill. You see what I’m saying? Brad (22m 24s): Sure, sure. We’re we’re compelled to in a life or death circumstances of evolution, evolutionary pressure, selection, pressure. So our, most of our existence has been the, the compulsion to adapt or die. And so now finally, we’re here in comfortable, modern life where we don’t really have to. We can sit and play video games and order pizza on Door Dash for the rest of our lives. And that’s where we, we suffer and we lose our potential for happiness and contentment because we’re, we can be turned into softies that have no, no, sir, no, no adaptability and no, no departure from homeostasis. Dave (23m 4s): Right? But it’s sort of ability, right? And those moments are the human body as a biological unit, like a tree or a dog or a worm has one algorithm, which is survival and comfort falls into that algorithm of survival. And so a kid playing video games is in a comfort zone, right? That’s a biological drive and an addiction to comfort. It’s chemicals being injected for comfort. And spirituality to me is making choices beyond the body. Like, I’m going to go jump in a cold tub. I don’t know about you, but it’s tough. Every single day I jumped on that tab. Is it gotten easier for you? It hasn’t gotten easier for me. Brad (23m 46s): It’s gotten easier. Dave (23m 47s): It hasn’t get warmer faster, Brad (23m 50s): But the part that’s easier is once you get in and go into my breathing. But I still tell the story in my mind every day. And like, you know what, I should really sweep the kitchen floor first. And then I’ll put the, I’ll put the crockpot stuff on and start that eight hour timer and then go in the cold tub. And I realize, Oh, you’re doing it again. So that part, I think, I can’t say I’ve overcome that where I’m just like, Dave (24m 17s): Let’s talk about that. Why is that? Why, why, what I know to me, I want to know what you know, why is that? Yes, Brad (24m 22s): it’s uncomfortable. Dave (24m 24s): Right? So it’s the biology, biological side looking for survival. And the reason why you get in is your spiritual side, same. I’m going to go beyond what my body wants. I’m going to consciously make a choice above my biology to do what I know is good for me. Brad (24m 46s): I guess that’s the same for someone who’s trying to run their a hundred mile run or climb to the top of the mountain. Is they diet? Yeah. Or change the diet, I guess, because Dave (24m 56s): relationships, Brad (24m 57s): how so? In relationships Dave (24m 59s): That’s being swayed by someone that’s biologically more compatible chemistry. I’m going to go sway towards chemistry. Even though I know this is bad for me, way by chemistry. Cause I always pick the wrong mate, because I don’t know. I’m really drawn to them. That’s programming. Everything you like, including the color has been programmed. I’m not saying that someone just plugs have been in your head and you’re like, Oh, you’re going to like this. No, it’s something you were exposed to. And just because you’re exposed the color red doesn’t mean you’re going to love the color red. It means the color red has been affect you. You may hate the color red because you’re exposed to color red. But the point is you were programmed because you’re getting this in you, you see what I’m saying? And so now you’re pro everything you like is programmed. Dave (25m 42s): Everything. Every opinion you have is on your program. There is no independent thought in your brain because the inner is the computer part of your brain has been programmed. Brad (25m 54s): So if we’re awakening to this idea and maybe frustrated that we’re, you know, we’re, we’re in a rut, we keep getting drawn to the wrong things or things that end up making us feeling unhappy. How do we escape and kind of open the programming, turned on the, the software to, to get rewritten. Dave (26m 19s): Well, number one, you said the word happiness. And you said it in a way as if happiness always isn’t always within you. So that’s, that’s a, that’s a belief that you have to have a thing to make you happy. And certainly people want to feel happy and because they want to feel happy, they think they need things to make them happy. And you really don’t. Brad (26m 42s): Well, what if I have s****y? And I keep playing out this s****y program. Dave (26m 47s): Yeah. We got to change the programming. So that’s where consciousness comes in. That’s where spirituality comes in. That’s where I use it. Athletics. As an example, my legs are tired. You need to stop running now, Brad, no I’m training. I want to get a world record because I love world records and I’m Brad Kearns and I’m super awesome. So I’m going to keep on going no Brad seriously. Like our legs are really tired. We have lactic acid and the muscles are giving us signals that this is really bad. Yeah. I know legs. This is really bad, but I’m going to keep on going and you can use that same example with happiness. Look, you’re really unhappy. Great. Happiness doesn’t come from things. I’m going to reprogram my brain with happiness. Dave (27m 27s): It doesn’t come from things. No, seriously. Like we love to eat ice cream at night and we’re, we’re kind of sad. And ice cream makes us feel really, really good. Yeah. But happiness doesn’t come from things like ice cream. I know what feels good, but it’s not really good. It’s a biological chemical of happiness, like serotonin or dopamine or the little stuff in my brain. That, that, that happens to me when I eat ice cream. Okay. So let’s not do it. Okay. I won’t do it, but I’m in a bad mood. Don’t want to go yell at my spouse and that’s been making me feel better. And now we’ll be happy that happiness doesn’t come from things. Happiness doesn’t come from somebody else. Happiness doesn’t come from anything external. I’m going to reprogram my brain and realize that happiness comes from within. Dave (28m 8s): And when you be programming your brain to realize that you don’t need ice cream to be happy, then guess what happens? You don’t need ice cream to be happy. It doesn’t happen overnight. That doesn’t mean their ice cream won’t make them happy. Sure. Well, it’s a chemical happiness. It’s a difference between happiness as an emotion and happiness as a state of being are two different things. There is something driving you to want to eat that ice cream. Let’s remove that cost. Then the need will go away and what’s left is happiness. Brad (28m 46s): Right? You get out of your own way. Yes. And all of a sudden, you open yourself up to life ain’t that bad after all, if I could just turn off my, my internal tapes that are telling me I’m not good enough or what have you. Dave (29m 0s): Well, and all that programming. When you understand that your, your brain is like a computer and your consciousness is the user, right? So I’m, I’m the user. And I’m going to hit play on the program and I’m going to go to sleep. What review of the user? The consciousness goes and the program is now running. Hey, we just got a stimulus. Someone has photos were s******d. Oh f**k. That person let’s swear at them. Now I feel like s**t. Like they don’t like me, but then they told us girl, I like it. I’m a s**t head too. That makes it feel really uncomfortable. I’m going to go on the ice cream now because I don’t, I feel like s**t. I feel really guilty. I just, you down, I’m going to go run at six at night because I had done a bias. I to feel guilty and I’m flooded with hormones of guilt, right? When the consciousness or the user is gone, we want to bring that user back and go, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Dave (29m 46s): They can call us and s**t. It that’s okay. Yeah. My spirituality is to go beyond the programming. It stopped for the program and decide what I want to do. Decide if I like this decided this meets my goals. What response meets my goals. My goals are to live a happy life and be kind to others and to love my spouse and raise wonderful kids and all these things that I want. What is the response that I need to give this person to get my goals met or get closer to them? That’s just like athletics, right? What do I need to do to keep on running, to meet my goal of becoming a world champion? Dave (30m 27s): Having that power over your body like you do with jumping in water, you need to use for everything. Fear, stress, anxiety, doubt. Self-esteem what I like, what I don’t like. And what happens when you do that is you stop liking anything because you really don’t care about anything. And you’re really pretty happy. Brad (30m 45s): Yeah. Then, then it gives you the freedom to let’s say manifest more wealth or whatever. Whenever these things that we obsess on and get negative about, Dave (30m 57s): Well, it gives you power to make choices. Like I don’t really need to eat that I can fast. And that’s cool because me feeling hungry is just the hormone of Ghrelin in my stomach. As a signal from my brain saying, you, you need food. Then it goes down. And then Ghrelin is the hormone that says you’re hungry, m**********r. And then it starts doing other things to your body. And then it becomes this powerful drive to eat. When it’s just a biological response of your body running the way it’s supposed to run, you know, Brad (31m 26s): Ghrelin subsides in 20 minutes, the effects go away. Dave (31m 30s): But we’re, we’re programmed to respond to that because we feel we’re hungry. It doesn’t mean we actually need to eat. Brad (31m 38s): Yeah. Dave (31m 38s): It’s the same thing with, because I want to hit on that girl doesn’t mean I actually should. Biological response, responsive procreate with someone that matches my program and of what I think is attractive. Brad (31m 48s): Yeah. Dave (31m 49s): So when I see a lot of these studies by a lot of people like Brene Brown, who I love by the way, but she has a lot of studies. And the book that you, the, the, the book that you sent that you told me to read on The Obesity Code, all those studies are probably with people that don’t have any power of choice over their bodies. Brad (32m 14s): All that stuff is in a way can be discounted because they’re taking the control group is like the robots. Yeah, Dave (32m 23s): That’s right. They’re biological units that they feel hungry, they eat right. And so those studies don’t take into account. What, what choices we can make when we have the power over our biology, because we can make choices like running and exercising smart. We can make choices like jumping in cold water because we know what’s good for us. We can make choices like intermittent fasting because we know what’s good for us. We can make choices like feeding in positive relationships. And I wrote this in of my books wisdom is knowing what situations are loving and supporting for us. Power is staying in them. Brad (33m 2s): What do you mean by power? Like having power or Dave (33m 5s): Powerful in the situations that are loving supporting, it’s sometimes very difficult to understand what situations are loving and supporting. We can get very confused by that. Our biology can be delusional. Our biology can drive us to say, well, I really could eat well, we don’t need to jump on that cold water. I believed it yesterday. And I really kind of do enough. Our brains have been clinically proven to trick us. And it’s really in the book thinking fast and slow. If you’ve read that book, he talks about this experiment that they ran about a gorilla running through a basketball court and people didn’t see it. And then they said there was no gorilla that ran across a basketball court. They said, yes, there was. And people were arguing it wasn’t yes, there was, f**k you. Dave (33m 46s): I didn’t see it. And then it would put a tape when they go, Holy s**t. I didn’t even see that. Brad (33m 53s): Right. Our brains can trust studies in psychology. Yeah. You had to count the number of times. They said, count the number of times you see the basketball getting thrown and caught and then no one, no one noticed the gorilla incredible. Dave (34m 8s): And the brain will fool us into thinking something that’s true when it, maybe it’s not true. And because of that, we have to be really, really careful about what’s real. And what’s not real because we can get fooled. Brad (34m 26s): How does that apply to our discussion about manifesting and, you know, altering your course of your destiny to create exactly what you want in life? Dave (34m 36s): Well, I wrote about this in my book and I don’t know how effective it was, but you have to have authentic goals because your brain can trick you into an authentic goal. Like I have a friend of mine who was a CEO, made tons of money. She was a movie director, hit the highest highs of success and basically hit the lowest lows. And she’s doing Joe Dispenza, and she’s reading this and she’s doing that. And I’ve, I’ve coached her a little bit. And, and I’m more of the, you know, tough love kind of thing. Right? And I’m going to teach you not coach. You I’ll tell you what lessons I’ve learned from ancient texts and from experience. Right? Dave (35m 16s): And she comes to me every so often and ask these questions like it’s not working. Why isn’t it working? And I keep on telling, you gotta let go. You gotta surrender. You gotta give up. And she gets him say, I don’t understand what that means. So we’ll send it to you will. And she keeps them coming back and she says, David, I’m doing everything right. Why am I not making money? Well, there you have it. Your intentions are not for the right reasons. Brad (-): Yeah. Dave (35m 38s): What’s the perfect reason I have to survive. I need money to just fine, but there’s a, there’s a different in the intention of just making money versus doing a job that gets me by and allows me the time to focus on what I love doing. So two different intentions, her intention is I need to be back on top again. I got to get back on top again. I’m going to use spirituality to get back on top again. When you spritz, why to manifest manifesting happens when you manifest things for the highest purpose, number one. And number two, you manifest them when you believe they can happen. And to the extent you believe them is to the extent they’ll happen or the rate at which they’ll happen. Dave (36m 21s): So most people fail in those two reasons. The intentions are wrong and they don’t really believe it. Brad (36m 27s): They don’t deep down believe it. They’re dreaming. They’ve been told to do their vision board and cut out the private jet that the man of their dreams they’re going to call in who’s six two, and has a two day stubble is going to come along and take them out of their shitty life. But they don’t really believe it. They’re just going through the motions. Dave (36m 45s): Right? And I look at my book as like the, the starting point of being able to manifest because you follow those seven habits and practice them. You’re going to be able to create an inner stability and an inner voice that supports your next step rather than sabotaging it. So if you don’t have fear for the outcome, you do accept things for how they are. You don’t judge yourself for other people. You do live with loving compassion. You do focus on happiness as a state of being, not an emotion. And you do have faith. You nail those things. And I mean, it might take years. You nail those things. The next step is easy, which is I don’t need to worry about making money cause I’m happy, but I really love this. Dave (37m 26s): And I really want to have tremendous amount of success in this. And then all of a sudden these things will begin happening because you’re not sabotaging yourself anymore. This for money. I need this for stature. I should have this. They shouldn’t. Why are they getting promoted and I’m not? And all that judgment and that the unacceptance and lack of faith, you have to have faith. Let go. Brad (37m 50s): Yeah. Yeah. Luke Story, on my show said that you have to be in a state of extreme gratitude for where you are and what you have right now in order to, you know, tee yourself up to manifest a further abundance. And I thought that was a really nice way to put it because most people are looking at this from a point of desperation. And Dave (38m 14s): You know what? Let’s talk about gratitude. You’re reprogramming your brain to say outcome. Doesn’t matter. I’m grateful for what I have. And I use the phrase. Life is enough. Life is enough. I’m alive. Okay. Number two. Gratitude is I’m accepting what I have. I’m not afraid of what I don’t have. Desire is fear and I’m accepting what I have. Okay. Number three, better attitude, not judging other peoples other people and yourself cause judgment requires a standard and you need a standard to judge against when you’re grateful. You remove that standard. Okay? Number four. Gratitude is, is a step towards happiness. I’m happy with what I have. I truly am grateful for what I have. Dave (38m 55s): I’m happy with what I have. I’m grateful for being alive. Okay. Number six, loving compassion. Compassion is, and miss ms. Defined word, we can get in that later, but gratitude is giving. I’m so thankful what I have. I can give some of it away. You don’t need to protect it, right? And faith, as well as to say faith, but practice. But it’s not just having gratitude. It’s practicing gratitude because you have to believe it. And I, I use my steps as ways to help get there. Like let’s take it in digestible pieces, not a fear for the outcome, except things from where they are. Don’t judge use your practices, not to stop you from being grateful. Dave (39m 35s): Hawkins says that the only real way to increase your vibrational energy is through gratitude and reverence for life. Brad (39m 43s): Makes sense Dave (39m 44s): Because all biology can recognize one thing, all biology, trees, horses, cows, worms, bacteria can all recognize one thing. And that is what supports life. So reverence for life, gratitude, other biological things, their protoplasm, their senses. They’re a worm sense. Go up for water. The tree. I need to look deeper roots for water, right? A dog, where can I get food? They’ll all go to what they believe supports life. Dave (40m 27s): They have sensors in their selves that says this supports life, right? And as a human, if you give off the energy that you support life, reverence for life. Gratitude, then other things will recognize the support o life. And they will feel comfortable around you. They will go to you calls it a quantum attractor pattern. Brad (40m 51s): And does that include material objects like money or what is he, what is he referring to? Dave (40m 60s): The concept? It’s an idea. It’s just an idea. It’s not even real. It’s a, it’s an imagined reality, right? When he’s just an imagined reality. It’s just a thing. If you, I can tell you the more conscious I become and the more I practice, the easier animals come up to me because they’re not afraid, Brad (41m 19s): Right? The animals have that sense. Especially the dogs, domesticated animals. They can, they can sense fear and they can sense the fear and the owner. And then the dog gets, gets on a leash and barks at the other dog, instead of just, you know, it has a chill accounter in the park. Dave (41m 31s): Okay. I have this experience where a hummingbird flew into my garage up to the window and he was bumping against the window and I walked up to it and it got a little crazy. And then it stopped and I picked it up, hummingbird, picked it up, walked it outside and I just let it go. And it wasn’t afraid. I mean, those things like that happened to me more and more. I was in Brad (41m 55s): As you vibrate higher and higher as you vibrate higher and higher, Dave (42m 0s): Right. There’s reverence for life. Brad (42m 3s): And so, I mean, I’ve heard these insights applied to that, that, you know, manifesting game of attracting people who are going to lead you to open doors and, and amassing more wealth and affluence when you’re vibrating properly. And then you’re open to it rather than closed off with your head down and, and missing out on opportunities because your mindset’s not there. Dave (42m 28s): Well, you, you, you do send out energetic signatures, emotions, or energetic signatures. You just said a dog being afraid of you because you’re afraid you, you have an energetic signature, whether you like it or not. It’s it’s, it is a, it is a scientific thing, right? Yeah. Brad (42m 46s): Yeah. The self esteem, prophecy was all about the invisible energy between two people. And there’s usually a competition for power. Unless you kind of learn how to go with the flow and leverage each other’s power. And I I’m kind of referencing those insights as you described this stuff, Dave (43m 3s): but everything biological goes counter or paradoxical to spirituality. Because the biology says live, survive. Find things that support us, right? The human body with its ability for cognition, which no other animal has, is now being paired up with a biological unit. So we’re giving biology. Imagine if a dog had the cognition of a human, what that dog would be doing, right? So we’re giving our mind cognitive power with our biology. But our mind also acts on behalf of our non-physical side, this energetic side, and the more we stay away from biology, more power, we have to choose over biology. Dave (43m 49s): We create more and more reverence for life. We create more and more gratitude because a squirrel, if it has a million nuts and it’s hot on a rainy day in November is going to go out and look for more nuts the next day. Cause it doesn’t have the ability to say, I’m grateful. I have so many that’s in fact, I have so many, I can give them away. It doesn’t have that ability. It’s going to go out and look for more nuts. It’s in its nature. And we have the ability to go against our biology and have gratitude. So the more you break your biology, the more you’re going to create reverence for other lives. The more you’re going to have other beings, other it’s beyond the brain, it’s at a cellular level, humans and animals will feel safe, feel, feel safer around you. Dave (44m 40s): That’s just the way it is. And that’s your manifesting comes from you’re now pulling these things into you. Brad (44m 48s): Yeah. Yeah, Dave (44m 49s): no, it still freaks me out. Sometimes some things happen to me and miss like, Whoa, like that was just too weird. Like what, you know? Brad (44m 57s): Oh yeah. I mean, everyone can reference these stories of life. Like the incredible coincidence is of feeling desperate and scared because you don’t have any money. And then the next day a check arrives in the mail unexpectedly and, and all those kinds of things that kind of confirm that there’s something magical going on here. That’s beneath the surface or awareness or that’s, you know, measurable by science. Dave (45m 23s): Have I told you the million dollar issue I have with my business. Did I tell you about that story? Brad (45m 27s): I don’t know. Dave (45m 28s): So when my business was shutting down, my ex wife was trying to sell it without me knowing. And she eventually put two people on the board that I didn’t know that. Well. Brad (45m 38s): Yeah. You tell me some of this Dave (45m 40s): from Philadelphia. And she had an offer to sell company and she decided to have a board meeting and I know emergency board meeting in five hours. I said, I can’t make it. In fact, she said too bad. We’re going to have it without you. So I called into the meeting and I said, if anyone votes, I’m going to sue every single person on this phone call because I’m on the board and I am the CEO. And if anyone votes on this without 24 hours, without me looking into this, I will sue every single person on this phone call. So they postponed it and then went home at night and she will, they undersold the company. He was a complete fiasco. She’d already tried to sell it. The word got out, people were quitting. I’ll never forget standing outside of my house in the woods. Dave (46m 23s): I’m just like, wow. Wow. So the next day and went to the gym and it wasn’t a normal time I went to the gym. It was an abnormal time and went to the gym. And as I’m walking into the locker room, a guy I know in the industry is walking out. Couldn’t miss him in 30 seconds, 30 seconds, bam. And he says, Hey, I heard you’re selling your company. I said, yep. He says, well, I’m kind of interested. What’s what’s going on. I said, well, if you’re interested, you got eight hours to make an offer because we’re voting and eight hours. And if you’re interested, we better talk. He says, let’s talk. Just said, let’s go to coffee. Dave (47m 3s): You go to coffee. He says, tell me and write up the offer. So I don’t have to get into a p*****g contest over competing with somebody else. So I took the other offer. I had a 10% more royalties and added a million dollars, the price. And I said to him, I said, if you can do this, then we have a deal and you sit back, I can do this. And he signed a letter of intent and they made a million dollars and 10% more on the company because I ran into that guy. And he owns a company today. Brad (47m 31s): What’s, what’s your takeaway from that? Dave (47m 35s): I dunno, you take, you take away whatever you want from it. I mean, one minute 30 seconds different. I wouldn’t miss that guy. Brad (47m 44s): Yeah. I mean, that’s karma is one of them because you did your best to build that company. It, things got screwy and it turned out that you had a nice upside Dave (47m 54s): that was, I just made it just paid off more debt. Brad (47m 59s): I mean, it was, it was a more deserving transaction. Yeah. And I think that’s, you know, that’s an example of karma and I definitely believe in that you keep putting it out there and positive energy and all that. And that guy had a preexisting relationship where he respected you and trusted you. So he could make a deal in eight hours. Yeah. That’s a great one man. Dave (48m 16s): And millions of dollars. Brad (48m 18s): Yeah. Yeah. Dave (48m 19s): And I don’t know if karma is the right word as much as it is that attractor pattern of, of trust and, and reaching through the networks of things that I know to bring those things to me, I mean, in the, in the book Power Versus Force, Hopkins uses Gandhi as an example of incredible power, incredible power, power. They took no energy. Power that created energy, where the English empire was forced. It needed energy to maintain force and Gandhi did nothing to create power. He got more people on his side, he got more influenced with the country. Dave (48m 60s): He didn’t produce propaganda or produce guns or spend money or have worships. He just had a s**t ton of power, that beat force. And that was an incredibly vibrational attractor pattern to influence people. Or people said, that’s weapons for life. That’s safe. That’s going to help me. That’s what I need to do. That’s who I need to listen to. Brad (49m 28s): We still have people doing that to us every single day, sometimes in untoward manner, but trying to prey upon our receptivity to that. And then later he went and manipulate you. And it seems to me, especially with what marketing is in a way. Dave (49m 43s): Yeah, but they play, they play advertising, but they’re playing with your biology, your force, not your power. They’re playing on fear, not love. Those are two things of the same spectrum, fear and love. As you let go of fear. You create more love. It’s not all or nothing. It’s, you’re sliding up the scale. And when you have more love, you’re just shedding more fear. If you want to get rid of fear, let more of the opposite in. If you want to be more spiritual, let more of the opposite, go your biology, right? You want to have more power. Let go of the opposite force. Dave (50m 26s): Power is letting go. Forces holding on. Right? Power is, is non-resistance forces resistance. You see what I’m saying? You have to let the other end at the same time. You’re shedding the others you’re you’re doing, you’re hearing it from both sides. Brad (50m 45s): Same with being happy as a state of being, yeah, Just let go of a lot of your ruminations in your mind and all those things Dave (50m 54s): You let go of the things that make you unhappy and will be left is happiness. And that practice of getting rid of stress and anxiety and fear help you have to reprogram your brain. Cause you’re only afraid of sending because your brain says you should be afraid of it. If you were programming your brain, you will no longer be afraid of it. Like I use my example with my son who has some depression. I said, if there was a kid in London that had a privileged life, wonderful life of privilege and all of a sudden the family, something happens to them and they have to move to a crappy tract Brad (51m 26s): home in East San Jose on ABC street. Dave (51m 30s): Okay. How would that kid feel like? Well, he’d probably be sad. Okay. Now let’s take a kid from the slums of Mumbai. Who’s never lived in a house before who can barely have food and water. And something happens with his family wonderfully and they move into a house in East San Jose next door. What’s he going to feel? So what will happen? Same house, same street, two different positionalities can create two entirely different emotions. So our programming creates the emotion, not the situation itself. And so you practice recreating those, changing those programs. Dave (52m 12s): I do it all the time. I’m not always like this. I do have moments where I’m like, f**k. And then I go, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. That f**k I just my brain. And then way I was raised and I can get rid of that and then just go away, go away, come on and go away. We haven’t gone away yet. My go away, go away, go away. Brad (52m 29s): Love it, man. A daily practice, Dave (52m 32s): Every moment. It’s more than daily. It’s all the time. Brad (52m 35s): Dave Rossi, The Imperative Habit. Go grab it on Amazon. Right. It’s for sale and ready for a life transformation. Dave (52m 42s): Yeah. And let’s, let’s do the biology thing, something like that. So while we would just talk about cause and effect, stimulus and emotion, Brad (52m 50s): that’s on our next show. So we had a wonderful show here, right off the cuff spontaneous. And I thank you for, for all those insights. I was a great journey and yeah, we’ll get into the, the biology next time. Dave (53m 5s): Alright. Sounds good. Brad (53m 5s): Dave Rossi, people. Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to thanks for doing it.


The tables are turned as Dave Rossi puts me through the wringer with some probing questions that are a refreshing departure from the typical interview questions about one’s life’s work or position on assorted topics of professional expertise.

Dave does a great job extracting insights that the podcast audience has never heard before. Here are some highlights from our conversation during this episode:

  • I feel immense gratitude for growing up during the time that I did. The lack of access to the kind of technology kids have today turned out to be such a wonderful gift, because my friends and I were forced to entertain ourselves. There was no sitting back and watching a few episodes on Netflix or going on YouTube all night. We had to be creative and innovative and make our own fun, while kids today have such easy access to…well, everything. And that unfortunately makes them less curious and less inquisitive, which are two of the biggest indicators of intelligence. 
  • Dave asks: where does your drive come from? I share that I have learned that I need to be really diligent about making time for downtime. I’ve actually had to work against that go-go-go instinct, and give myself enough time for rest and relaxation.
  • Part of my goal with this show is to open up the dialogue beyond the basics of what constitutes “healthy,” as in questions like, what kind of food is best, what workouts are best, etc., and more towards fundamental things that pertain to health and happiness. I’ve noticed that a lot of people who seem to be thriving in major areas of life, like with their career and health, are actually lacking in some other crucial areas (relationships, connection, personal life), perhaps because all that intense focus is only being utilized for material gain and external validation. Clearly, this is a sad reflection of how our culture not only emphasizes success but also seems to suggest that success = happiness.
  • Dave asks a great question for us all: is your view of yourself as strong as your inner voice’s ability to restrain itself from sabotaging you? 
  • I share how I was able to get over myself at a pretty young age, after I rose to the highest heights I could ever dream of, then fell, then rose again, and what that experience taught me.
  • Dave gets really personal, asking: what is a piece of you, that you haven’t shared yet? I admit to him that I try not to burden people with my problems and emotions, while also staying authentic to who I am and my story, and I talk a bit about how my relationship with my partner, Mia Moore, has changed my life.

We wrap up with Dave asking me a very thought-provoking question: what advice would I give to an 18-year-old Brad? The answer may surprise you…

Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for my brand-new show with Dave coming next week!



 How did Get Over Yourself podcasts begin? [03:56]

 Easy access to information now makes us less curious and less inquisitive.  [07:26]

 Where does Brad’s drive come from that keeps him from enjoying downtime? [10:46]

 Dave thinks Brad’s show has changed as Brad has changed. [14:14]

 Our culture has put a huge emphasis on go, go, go and do, do, do that it has gotten out of hand. [18:45]

 Dave asks what is Brad’s motivation about his podcasts? What is changing in Brad? [20:20]

 A person can struggle from success to crashing and back searching for their self-esteem. [24:31]

 It’s important to acknowledge your weaknesses and fight this battle every day. [28:20]

 It’s not up to me what actually happens so I want to do things that matter to me without the emotion of the outcome. (Dave) [35:26]

 Make the most of every single day because there is no guarantee of tomorrow anyway. [36:48]

 Parents: You can talk to your kids if they are willing to listen and set an example but you can’t determine their destiny. [40:20]

 Is your view of yourself as strong as your inner voice’s ability to restrain itself from sabotaging you? [ 41:57]

 Brad doesn’t easily reveal his inner self as Dave probes him. [47:52]

 What advice would Brad give 18-year-old Brad? [53:15]

 You can keep things fresh and keep things going. [57:52]

 Everything we do is simply a pursuit of a hormonal experience. [59:29]



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Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (45s): Hey, it’s Brad Kearns.to Introduce our interview guest Brad Kearns. Brad (1m 40s): Oh my gosh. Should I even be doing this show? It’s from our main man, Dave Rossi, frequent get over yourself podcast guest. And this time he decides to turn the tables and become the interviewer and put me on the spot. And we had a wonderful conversation. Very interesting. He asked deep probing questions, like a skilled interviewer, uncovering exciting new insights. We talked a bit about the podcast and how I got started and my background doing this fun health and fitness writing and podcasting. Brad (2m 19s): So hopefully you enjoy the show at the end. He puts me in a corner and asked me some really challenging questions and I’m kind of stumped. I think you’re going to enjoy that exchange and we actually pick that up and move it into my interview with him. We get back into the, the last question he asked me about, I think it was something like, what am I still not revealing entirely to my audience? And I’m like, I don’t know. Then when I thought about it some more, I came up with an interesting answer that we dig into on my show with Dave Rossi. Brad (2m 52s): So yeah, it kinda leaves you with a cliffhanger ending. What is Brad Kearns hiding behind this microphone? Enjoy the show with our special guest interviewer, Dave Rossi, author of The Imperative Habit. Please go to Amazon and grab that book. It is fantastic. It’ll change your life. And also watch him on Instagram because he puts up nice little quotes and tidbits. That’ll entice you to read the whole book, but you can have some really fun takeaways every single day, inspiration from what Dave’s doing in his life. Brad (3m 25s): Here we go, Dave Rossi. We are back together this time on the zoom and that’s okay, but we’ve had some great visits this year, talking for hours and hours about the important matters of the day. And Oh my gosh, it’s really fun to connect. And we thought we’d do some unique show formats, particularly with the idea of turning the tables and having you the main man, the, the guests with the, with the motor that won’t quit turn into the interviewer. Brad (3m 56s): And then you can ask me questions and, you know, turn, turn the poison onto me since I’ve been inflicting it on all my guests so far. Dave (4m 42s): I love that format. And as what’s funny is, you know, we can tell your listeners that even before we hit start with this, we just started going off about topics and things. And I’m like, stop, stop. We have to get this and build this cause this is great, great stuff. And what we’re talking about was actually one of my second questions was about your podcast, how it came to be, you know, there’s a lot of followup questions about your podcast, but I think your listeners really should know. How did it get over yourself with Brad Kearns really start? And what does it mean to you? Brad (4m 42s): Oh my gosh. Thank you for that opening. You know, I’ve been doing podcasting since early, early in the advent of the medium back in 2012 or 2013, we launched The Primal Blueprint Podcast. Mark Sisson and I just were sitting around realizing that this podcast thing was happening and you hear about it and you know, then you go on your phone and figure out how to download a podcast. And so we decided to throw our hat in the ring. We didn’t really have a full commitment to it cause we were so busy doing other stuff like writing books and putting on retreats and developing online educational courses. Brad (5m 16s): So I didn’t realize the tremendous power for it to explode like it has today. And I’m glad to be on board. I launched the, Get Over Yourself Podcast in 2018. So that was my, you know, my own venture where I could shape the show and take it where I wanted. I still actually host a show on the Primal Blueprint channel every week. So I’m in the studio a lot, cranking out content. And as a consumer of podcasts, I really, really love it because I’m too busy to sit and read books. Brad (5m 47s): I’m too busy, cranking out books. And I feel like I get sidetracked. If I sit with a stack of books and do quote unquote research, it means I didn’t type any words that day. So I’ve been in like production mode for 12 years straight to where I don’t really have time or energy to sit down and read a book after writing a book all day. And also I’m kind of, I enjoy YouTube and it’s a great medium, but sometimes your brain is a little bit, you know, fatigued to go and sit there and consume a bunch of videos. Brad (6m 19s): But when you can listen to the content and I listened to everything at 1.5 speed, 1.7, five speed, sometimes 2.0 speed because I want to listen to more and more podcasts and keep to my playlist. And so it allows you to consume a lot of content, absorb it in a really effective way to learn. So I listened to a lot of audio books and I listened to a lot of podcasts when I’m out there exercising. And I know there should be time during exercising that you’re just engaging with nature and you’re present and you’re just working on your breathing or something. But I do listen to podcasts when I’m driving or otherwise distracted with a low, a low cognitive tasks like raking the leaves or something. Brad (6m 55s): And so I have a chance to consume more content than I would in a video format, which requires all your time and energy and attention or reading, which requires all your energy and attention where podcasts, you can divert your attention with doing other stuff. Dave (7m 9s): Well, I want to assure you. You can read that. Brad (7m 16s): It says those of you watching on YouTube, you can see it, the listeners, it says speed, please. Dave (7m 19s): Well, you know, what I really got out of your answer was you’re busy. Brad (7m 24s): Like all of us, right? Dave (7m 26s): I mean, I’m, I’m not as busy as say you’re really f*****g busy after listening to that answer, you’re listening to audio books fast. You’re listening to podcasts fast to get more and more information. So what is being left out with all of this business? What’s, what’s missing, what’s the piece of the thing we are sacrificing for all of this other stuff. Brad (7m 46s): Yeah, man. I mean, look, if people of our age can reference a life that did not have hyper-connectivity hyper-connectivity mobile technology and this constant stimulation, the binge watching of television programs. I mean, when I was, you know, in my twenties and wanted to unwind after a tough day of training, we would wait until 9:00 PM. When LA La came on and someone would come over to watch it with us. Cause it was our favorite show and we pop popcorn and sit around and have fun. And you know, that was not quite the same as watching six, six shows in a row on one night and having this constant ability to entertain ourselves now. Brad (8m 25s): And I do feel like there’s a lot of things missing from modern life and the experience that your kids, my kids have compared to what we had, which was, I guess there was more downtime. There was more boredom. There was more obligation to create our own forms of entertainment rather than sit back and watch a show or play a video game or just binge on YouTube all night. And so boy, I mean the experts will a reference how the easy access of information now makes us less curious and less inquisitive. Brad (8m 57s): And those are two of the highest indicators of intelligence is curiosity and inquisitiveness. That’s what makes for an intelligent person. The one that you can sit with on the ski chair lift, and you’re asking him, so where are you from? What do you do? Oh, the South Bay area. Yes. I, I used to work down there myself. Remember the, the, the DeAnza park is that open again. And your, your brain is constantly trying to master new topics of learning with a new person or engaging in conversation about different topics. Brad (9m 28s): And now I can just pick up my phone and say, Hey, Siri, what’s the population of Cupertino, California. The population is 29,750. And it changes things. It changes things. Dave (9m 39s): Well, it sounds like, I mean, your, you get, you gave yourself some advice in that answer, right? I heard you say, Hey, boredom’s good. Looking, searching for curiosity is good. Not being overstimulated and hyperconnectivity is good. And so I kind of heard you say that you actually miss those things, but yet those things are good for you. So what’s the drive for you to miss out on those things? Why are you missing out on these things if you know, it’s good for you? Brad (10m 8s): Well, I’d say that I do a pretty good job of living a more mellow life than maybe I did in the past in other roles. And I have to be focused on the creative side and generating content rather than just being an engager with a live chat and text messaging and email inbox. I have to write books and I have to have something to show for my day. And so I am either in, well, that’s just my focus and my, you know, the highest expression of my talents is to create something rather than just be a player. Brad (10m 45s): And so I, Dave (10m 46s): What that drive comes from, because I think that drive is connected to a drive that you’ve had since the first time I met you talking about leaving your job and accounting and going become a professional athlete. I think I want to know, and I bet you, your listeners want to know where does that drive come from? Because it almost infringes on your inability to follow some advice about some downtime. You’re saying you want to create great content and yet you’re creating great content at the expense of your own advice that maybe a little bit of boredom and a little bit of downtime. Dave (11m 18s): Where does that drive come from? Brad (11m 20s): Yeah, that’s a good one. I think I’m probably a huge percentage of people listening can relate to having that type A highly motivated goal oriented, driven disposition. And I can definitely identify with that, but I’ve worked really hard starting back when I was an athlete to tone that down and allow myself to relax more and engage with nature more and play with my dogs and do things, physical exercise and things like that, that kind of balance this obsession with your keyboard and cranking away and doing as much as possible and squeezing every second out of the day. Brad (12m 1s): And you hear a podcast from Elon Musk and he says, no one will get anything truly great accomplished unless they work 20 hours a day and b******t like that, that were fed into our brain. These days, especially young people are getting their brains program that, you know, you have to be robotic in your, in your productivity. Otherwise you can’t live a happy life. And I think your work is kind of a Testament to encouraging people to second guess the rat race mindset, which is so harmful on so many levels. So I’m working hard to do it. And I’ve created a, you know, optimized lifestyle for myself where I’m an entrepreneur. Brad (12m 35s): I answer only to myself. I keep my own hours. I can goof around for many hours during the day, any time I want, but then you know, that little voice inside the one that Dave Rossi has encouraged me to turn off or to temper, it’s always gonna be there. Like, what the hell did you do today? You lose her and why are your peers making more income than you or whatever it is that you know, we want to have that FOMO mindset kicked back into the rat race mindset back. Dave (13m 21s): Even you having fun is, is intense. I mean, you’re like, couldn’t eat chocolate. It’s still stretch at the same time. You know, we’re going to have a scene and you’re going to stretch standing in line. I mean, so even, even, you know, your downtime is, is layered with, with benefits for your, for yourself, man, you’re, Brad (14m 12s): I’m getting a, I’m getting free therapy advice too, because when you reflect that back at me, I have to acknowledge that. And so I, I I’m like, you know, trying to create this image of myself, this self image, that I’m a really chill guy and I like to relax and take it easy, but you know what, I’m always doing something. Other people say that to me too. Like, you’re always on the go. My mom says you should take it easy more. And I’m like, I take it easy all the time. I goof off for hours every single day. But that guy thing off that might be a workout and then back to work and then doing another fun workout, like speed golf. And I’m thinking, wow, what a great day I had all this recreational opportunities, but it was it wasn’t, I’m not the guy that sits on the back porch and sips of beer and wants to talk for three hours about, you know, nuanced topics. I’d rather get back to my email inbox. Dave (14m 14s): Yeah. Well, I think I want to have two, two follow up questions with that. I think when people in general had said that about me, although again, people like most people think I’m overly motivated and people like me think you’re or really motivated beyond me. And I usually answer it and tell people I just have a lot to do. And I, and I hear you of saying that too, but I actually think you’re you just answered and tell me if this is right. I think your show has changed as you have changed. Dave (14m 46s): I think you have a lot of commitment to your listeners. I think you started your show with this go go mindset and micro workouts, jogging, junk jogging, morning routines, cold exposure, carnivore diets, super foods, all of this stuff. And then you layer on all these crazy, crazy, personal goals of being the best in the world. And you crop, you try and it’s like super crazy hard stuff like high jumping, like high jumps. I mean, that’s like, like not trying to be human. Some of us run cause humans actually do run, but very few humans actually jump. Dave (15m 19s): So this is, this is all a whole weird thing. But do you think your show has changed since you started it with this mindset of trying to tone back a little bit, trying to add that mental relaxation piece if you had on different guests or different interests of yours because of that effort in you? Brad (15m 41s): Yeah. You know, I think we’ve been so deep into this progressive health scene, this ancestral health scene for me for the last 12 years, like living and breathing, the dietary breaking science and the amazing insights that the standard American diet has been a disaster. And that actually eating fat is good for you. And the, you know, the carbs are the true enemy, the processed carbs, and then the Quito craze comes on and now the carnivore eating pattern is a big thing. Brad (16m 11s): And when you get so deep into it, I think you have the potential to kind of, you know, tip over the boundary of just a healthy, balanced approach to life. And I don’t want to, I think it’s important to be extreme in your quest for optimum health because the modern life is so disastrously unhealthy, but you can definitely overdo it or over obsess about these things. So I think part of my goal with the show is to open up the content and the dialogue to more than just talking about at what foods are the best to eat every single week and even what workouts are the best to do and get obsessed with your, your training schedule and the different heart rates that you use and the different strength training techniques. Brad (16m 54s): So that’s why I’ve had people like you on was one of the most downloaded shows of all time. This Dave Rossi guy talking about the, the, the, the habit forming and reprogramming your brain and looking at things differently. Dr. John Gray men are from Mars. Women are from Venus, was one of the most popular shows. And this is, you know, talking about how not to be an a*****e to your girlfriend or wife. It has nothing to do with what food choices you made, but sometimes those people that are highly optimized in every single way, they’re high income earners that are also fit. Brad (17m 26s): on They’re at the gym, working out in between making a bunch of money at their business. And everything seems to be, they speed off and they’re a sports car, but they have so many deficiencies at other levels, possibly on account of that crazy driven personality style. So I learned, you know, Dave, back when I was an athlete, that if I were going overboard with my competitive intensity, I would literally get my ass kicked on the race course because I would overdo it. So there was a point where, Hey, man, you got to chill and unplug that plug and learn how to, you know, unwind and be a complete person. Brad (17m 59s): And that will in fact, help you become a better peak performer when it’s time to bear down and do the best you can and your career ambitions or whatever it is. Dave (18m 9s): So you’re saying balance actually balance, including not getting in an argument with your girlfriend or spouse. That kind of balance helps performance. Brad (18m 45s): Yeah. And I think now finally, we’re kind of peeling past the curtain and seeing for real what’s going on in celebrity culture. And we have thinkers that have now been granted a platform and a voice to offer up counter opinions to this nonsense and this cultural programming that money equals happiness. And whoever works the hardest and sells the most records or what that, Dave (18m 47s): or success equals happiness. Brad (18m 49s): I mean, you know, all we’ve done is fantasize with these great athletes, making their millions of dollars and the, the entertainers, the celebrities, the performers. And of course the, the leaders of business have been revered as the most important successful, and you know, bad-ass people in society. And now we can finally kind of unwind that and realize that, Hey, if you’re going to be a surf instructor in Costa Rica for the next four years instead of four months, cause you liked it and he kept going, there’s nothing wrong with that. Brad (19m 20s): World has enough surf instructors, but they also have enough, you know, medical school students and lawyers and venture capitalists. And everything’s fine. So you can do what you want with your life and try to just make a contribution, a positive contribution to the planet. And that might be, you know, teaching people how to serve for $24 on the beach in Costa Rica. And I try to give this message to my kids because it serves as a counter to all that cultural programming. When, you know, you meet a young kid who’s college age, like my son and my daughter and an adult will say, Oh, so what are you studying? Brad (19m 52s): What’s your major? Oh, what are you going to do with that? Oh, do you plan to go to graduate school? Oh, that’s impressive. Isn’t that interesting? You know, and we’re all measured and judged by what we accomplished rather than saying, Oh, so how was it down there on the beach in Costa Rica? Did you see any turtles? You know, that kind of stuff is, is put on the back burner in favor of go, go, go. How many likes do you have and how many followers do you have on your social media and all that stuff that can be extremely harmful when we let it get out of hand and it has gotten out of hand. Dave (20m 20s): Well, and I think there’s a good point and I want to talk and I, and I don’t want to describe those points. I want to weave those points into you because I want to talk about Brad Kearns in this show. I have kept two people off to your show and I literally have people come up to me and say, Missoula, what’s for lunch and they’ll go, Oh, Brad Kearns says, and they’ll all of a sudden, no microphone, you know, Hey, and I want to know, and I, and I, and I don’t, I’m not sure if it got an answer to my question that is, does your show change your topics? Dave (20m 50s): I think you said yes, but I want to dive more into it with what you’re interested in, what you are now finding as, as important for people to listen to. Cause you’re kind of out there investigating this. You’re kind of out there on the frontline, jumping in cold water, eating weird s**t, eating cow balls and cow intestines. And you’re out there saying, look, I’ve tried this, I’ve tested this, I’ve researched this and do it. So, so your motivation for the show, I want to hear about that, your motivation about what you get out there to people. What is it? Dave (21m 21s): Is it changing with you? What are the factors with that? Brad (21m 24s): Yes. Thank you for going for the answer because Brad Kearns is very skilled at just taking us off onto a different tangent, but you know what?20 That’s a great question. I think other podcast hosts can kind of reflect on this too, because a podcast is the epitome of niche programming, right? It’s not ABC prime time where we have this sit-com and that sitcom and you’re forced to watch it. So you really are obligated to be honest, authentic, vulnerable with putting yourself out there when you’re recording and interviewing people and trying to create content. Brad (22m 1s): And so it has kind of evolved more to my own personal interests and the guests that I choose and the stuff that I talk about on my breather shows because my format is unique. If you haven’t listened to it before people, I mix the traditional long form interview. Like when I sit down with Dave Rossi for an hour and talk to you about your work and your opinions. And then in between that, I publish two shows a week. It’s called a breather show where I am just recording about a topic of interest, like an insight that I pulled from a book. So I’ll do a summary points from a great book that I just listened to or read. Brad (22m 35s): So when I have a chance to talk and express my opinion, it’s definitely, you know, framed by what’s of interest to me currently. And that’s, I think, you know, the, you want to follow me and you want to get interested in it and it appeals to you. That’s great. And I’m kind of realizing that I’m a male in the, whatever they call the middle age groups, right? I’m 55 years old and I still want to be fit healthy and happy pursue competitive goals. Brad (23m 5s): So these are the driving interest in my own personal life. And it seems like the content is trending in that direction. Not that it won’t appeal to a female of 35 who might have similar goals that you don’t want to, you know, age accelerate your aging process with overly stressful lifestyle practices. So we might have a connection in some way, but mainly it’s me without any gloss over or airbrushing. And that’s different than mainstream media, because we don’t know who these puppets are that are talking on the news every night. Brad (23m 36s): And we don’t know what they’re like and what their interests are. They’re just kind of filling the, you know, in many cases they’re just kind of filling the suit and, you know, creating an image that might not be anything that’s authentic. Dave (23m 49s): Yeah. Well, a couple of things you said, you talked about being vulnerable in your podcast, but you also talked about the, this goal oriented type a person that you are. And I want to blend those because I get the feeling a lot in your audiences type A is a lot of people that follow Sisson and you, because of the athletic goals, the drive, the Olympic kind of level of world champion kind of level people that you both are. And they’re probably looking for these tips and these goals. Dave (24m 20s): Is that drive coming from a feeling of trying to be accepted, or is that drive coming from a feeling of just f*****g loving what I’m doing or combination of both? Brad (24m 31s): Well, I’ve worked so hard in my adult life to get away from that impure motivational force. That’s, you know, oftentimes associated with type A like the, the guy who was shunned in high school is now the guy driving around with the convertible and, you know, getting his, you know, you know, superficial accomplishments to, to make up for that lack of self esteem, Dave (25m 1s): The trophies that we adorn our walls with that have no steps. Brad (25m 5s): Yeah. Yeah. And so in my case, Dave, you know, I was, you know, thrust into this career as a professional athlete at a very young age. And when I was 21 years old, I upset the two top ranked athletes in the world as a complete nobody that no one had ever heard of or paid any attention to. And all of a sudden I was on the cover of the magazine and was thrust into this high profile career. And I had to adjust to that. And that’s why the title of my podcast is get over yourself is because, you know, I could think I was hot s**t for a while until the very next race when someone kicked my butt and I started to struggle and go into a tailspin when just months before I was on top of the world. Brad (25m 45s): So when you have that topsy turvy type of lifestyle and the same thing I know from your book and your description of losing your business empire and your, the wealth that you would accumulate and having to start over and recalibrate everything, the same thing I would say we can all relate to in some way, but for me, I think it was pretty dramatic and extreme. Those lessons that I learned as an athlete were extremely humbling. So being on top and then struggling at a level of intensity that few people can relate to, if they’re just in a career working for the post office or in the high rise building, you know, moving up from manager to partner. Brad (26m 23s): So I, I kinda got bumped around by life. And then I had to wake up one day and realize that, you know, all we have is now appreciating the process and cultivating and a pure love for what you’re doing. I really carved my own path and kind of, you know, made, made these life decisions that really didn’t beholden me any outer force. And so I’m just kind of doing my thing, trying to enjoy myself, get over myself and then, you know, make that contribution by sharing the message and encouraging other people to say, you know, f**k it, just go for it, whatever it is. Brad (26m 56s): And, you know, in my case, it was like quitting this promising lucrative career path and accounting to try my hand at the professional racing circuit and kind of keeping those ideals in place even today, when, you know, I’ve made decisions that are high risk and a low expectation of consistency or predictability. Dave (27m 18s): So, so what I hear you saying that the answer to that question, and I want to get this for your listeners is that it started out your motivation started out really as a passion, just loving what you’re doing, leaving accounting for passion, beating other racers for passion, not accolades, but then your career turned into accolades where you became knocked down at times. And of course loss is always relative, but I hear you, maybe you got knocked down in the sports or in an age related, maybe not that you’re old, but maybe for your, for your competition, it was, was humbling. Dave (27m 53s): And maybe there was some motivation related to, I want adequacy back. I want relevance back. I want those accolades. And now you’re at the point where you’re, you’re cycling back up again to the love and passion. And I want to give my knowledge to my listeners because of passion no longer because of adequacy or relevancy. Is that, is that how you put it? Brad (28m 20s): That’s really well said. And I think probably everybody can relate to this battle that goes on in our mind where we have these insecurities, the FOMO mindset, fear of missing out. And I, I’m not going to conclude that Brad Kearns is highly evolved and completely free of any insecurities and inadequacies, things like that, because I think it’s really important to acknowledge your weaknesses and fight this battle every single day. So I want to make sure every single day that my motivation is pure. Brad (28m 51s): My heart is in the right place because it’s super easy to get mold into a money making scheme opportunity. And yes, it sounds compelling. I want to double my money and whatever I’m making up, that example is for like, you know, exercising to an extreme, because you have an athletic goal and you, you love it so much and you’re passionate about it. And then you overdo it. You kind of get into that, you know, the dopamine addiction, where you want those instant gratification highs every single day, and you have to be, you know, rushing through life and going for a, you know, a new high every single day. Brad (29m 27s): Otherwise you’re not happy or not content. So it’s, it’s a battle every time. And I think one example that comes up is like, I love my athletic training goals so much, but I still have a tendency to overdo it. Despite me standing here as a knowledge authority on how to balance stress and rest and training. And I’ve been messed up my knee yesterday, cause I did too many high jumping practices, but I was having so much fun at the time. I forgot I was 55 years old and you know, have certain limitations with what I can do. So now my tails between my legs, once again, and it’s time to recalibrate, reevaluate my priorities and regulate my emotional intensity and things like that. Dave (30m 7s): Well, I just think he gave some more advice out when you said that you overdid it again. And before that answer, you said you’re having to regulate and you’re having to monitor. And we all can’t eradicate that. I mean, for me, the complete eradication of that intensity is the definition of enlightenment, which is a very, very difficult thing to reach lots and lots of practice decades of practice for most, if not even achievable. But what I hear you saying is, Hey, I’m, I’m fighting the good fight every day between over-training and about intensity and what I need to do and love for my goal, but also tempering the love for my goal to not overtrain and go hurt my knee. Dave (30m 52s): I got to be realistic about how I train, because the way I train, how I train is going to make me better than just going balls to the walls and not giving, you know, a nod to that mental logical reasonable choice making process, you needed an overwhelmed with the emotion. That’s kind of what I heard and all that. Brad (31m 13s): Yeah. It’s a tough one. I mean, you talk about in the imperative habit, you’re reading about these topics like enlightenment and you know, when I’m driving to the, the track to do a workout, that’s going to be involving pain and suffering. But I know the payoff is wonderful afterward and I’m happy doing it. But sometimes you wonder, like, what am I doing instead of just sitting with my legs crossed and doing breathing, and just enjoying the sun shining on my body without having to have an athletic goal or have to go beat myself up with another hard workout and same with, you know, we’ve talked about this for hours. Brad (31m 50s): I wish the listeners could get some of that sound bites from the car ride, but you know, this pursuit of economic affluence, financial security, these things are of great importance in my life at this age. And I have a lot of concerns, worries, pressures, all these things that you tried to talk me out of. And it was a really a wonderful conversation. Cause it causes you to second guess all these things that were programmed to believe that you gotta build up your portfolio and your 401k and you better do this and you better do that and you better not fall behind and you better take advantage of every opportunity. Brad (32m 26s): And you know, this is a daily war with me because sometimes I don’t give a crap and I’d rather spend the whole day hiking in the forest. And then you come back and the, the guy on your shoulder taps, you gently and says, Hey man, what f**k did you do today? Did you, how many pages of the book did you write? Oh yeah, I’m in a high pressure career with a lot of expectations of people counting on me. I got to reimburse into the rat race and unwind all that airy fairy talk that I gave myself when I was sitting by the stream. Dave (32m 55s): And you know, a lot of people will have those debates, a lot of people. And I’m sure a lot of your listeners that maybe defines the type personality. So let’s talk about that a little bit. So where I’m coming from in that car ride was the decision making process or the motivation based process are spiritual rules, not monetary or success driven rules. And w what I, what I’m getting from you is that you have an internal debate in your mind about, yeah. Dave (33m 29s): Okay, cool. I wanna believe Dave, and maybe a lot of the other guests I’ve had on my show with these spiritual related rules or spiritual related goals, but m**********r, I got a guy on my shoulder saying you got to do this. What did you do today? You get to sit in the sun all day. So how, what percentage of your life, how has that we’re going with you? How much you saying, okay, I’m going to follow the spiritual rule and how much of you is like, I can’t listen to that right now. I need to get back to the path. I need to get back to making butter, nut butter and getting my ancestral vitamins, which I love those vitamins, by the way, I’m not a big vitamin person. Dave (34m 5s): And I do, I did actually feel a lot better with those vitamins. But anyway, the point is, where are you with that debate? How far are you down that path? Brad (34m 12s): Well, what was so great was I turned the, I turned the weapon back on you. And I said, look, man, what about you? You were in this high PR high stress construction career. You got, you know, stuff thrown at you every single day. How can you adhere to these principles when you’re deeply immersed in a project that’s gone wrong. Remember you told me about the guy that didn’t turn his cabinets in on time, everyone was waiting. The cabinets had to come in and this guy flaked, and you know, what about these busy lifestyle? Dave (34m 41s): It was a $25 million house. Brad (34m 45s): So it was a big deal. People. It wasn’t like you explained a way that you could still proceed in competitive, modern world with that grace and with that peaceful mindset. And so I try to remember, you know, these tenants and I’m sure you’ll be able to spout some quotes right off the top of your head, unlike me. But I think the general takeaway for me was that it’s okay to go in there and compete and have even a desire for material success. Brad (35m 18s): As long as I think the, the big picture perspective is there. And, Oh my gosh. Dave (35m 26s): Yeah. So it wasn’t, I want to turn it back on you again, cause this interview is about you. The answer was, it’s not up to me, what happens and, and, and it’s not up to you who wins the race. Yeah. You gotta show up, I get It. And you gotta train. I get it. But ultimately when you show up that morning, the script is already written on, who slept the bass, maybe the number one guy was sick. Maybe you’re sick. Maybe you overtrain. Everything that’s about to happen has already happened. And that is not up to you. Dave (35m 57s): So it’s okay to, like you said, this, this debate in your mind of how much. He can sit in the sun and relax. I’m in Lake Tahoe. And how much of me has to answer the questions of my inner critic saying, I’m saying, what did you do today? My answer always is, it’s not up to me, what actually happens. So I want to do things that matter to me without the emotion of the outcome. And that phrase is not up to me, helps me put that emotion in a box and then make the decisions based on what I want to do, what my goals are. Dave (36m 35s): And what’s important to me. So, but how much of you is, is emerging that way? Where are you in that path of doing that? Right. I know you want to, when they hear, you want to, when I hear the debate, you say you have, where are you in that? How far along are you with that path? Brad (36m 48s): Oh, I’d say I’m doing really well. And it’s one of the great attributes of getting older. There’s a lot of crappy things about getting older. I can get injured more easily during high jump workout, but I feel like I’m gaining a healthy perspective to where I truly understand what things aren’t up to me and then what things I can control and give my best effort at and do it with a, a healthy, a healthy mindset, rather than a mindset of scarcity or nervousness or insecurity that’s putting out into the marketplace when I’m begging you to buy my product or whatever I’m doing. Brad (37m 25s): So I think one thing I referenced in recent times was that helped me gain a, a healthy perspective was saying goodbye to my father in the most graceful and gifted way possible. He lived in 97 years old, which is a nice run. And he had extremely fantastic health for 95 of those years. And then he had a decline that was really quick, which is what we all want, right? We don’t want 10 years of dementia and people caring for you and you not knowing who you are, who I am. Brad (37m 56s): So he had a really quick drop-off where he just started sleeping, more, eating, less, sleeping, more walking, a shorter distance. Cause we got a mountain walk to every day and it used to be around the park a half mile. And then it was around the parking lot. And then it was around the backyard. And so, you know, to see the great life that this guy lived, he was a champion golfer, his whole life and an accomplished surgeon and all these great things and raise five kids. But you know, then it’s time to go at the end and to see that life cycle completed in front of my eyes, I realized like, you know, I’m going to be there someday too. Brad (38m 30s): And if I want to stress my way there and you know, be negative and bring bad energy to my day into other people, I have that choice. I’ve done that on a certain day and a certain time to a certain person and this occasion and that occasion. And I’d rather be, you know, making the most of every single day because there’s no guarantee of tomorrow anyway. And you know, my dad stood for a lot of cool things. He wasn’t, you know, a world famous person that wrote 17 books and was in the, in the movies and all that. Brad (39m 0s): But you know, he cut people open and sewed him up and save their lives. And people were so grateful. They’d come over and, you know, give him a bag of corn that they grew in their backyard and, and things like that, that I grew up with these, these, you know, memories of things like that. And then, yeah, yeah. And he was a quiet understated guy. He never argued with me. He never criticized me. He was never harshly harsh. Excuse me. Dave (39m 27s): You wish he would have? Brad (39m 29s): No. And I feel like just like with coaches that were hands-off that allowed me to progress as an athlete by myself without that hard driving. And I know a lot of people and you’re a football guy, so you probably referenced that coach that really brought out the best in you. But because of my personality style, I’m, you know, I take Gretchen Rubin’s quiz and I’m a rebel tendency. So I like to do things my own way. I don’t like anyone to tell me what to do. I like to figure it out for myself. And my dad probably saw that or is probably his personality too, that he never, you know, enforced his will upon me, but he would lecture me about the importance of getting an education. Brad (40m 6s): And I remember when I was cruising through my crappy public high school in Los Angeles, getting, you know, a two eight is my final GPA and I have at the dinner table, him telling me what a great school Princeton was, which is where he attended. And that the Ivy league was a really great place to pursue a higher education because it opened up a lot of doors because it was very prestigious. And I did there and listen, I’d be like, dad, I’m pulling it to eight at the crappiest high school, taking the easiest classes. I don’t think I’m Princeton material, but you know, he did his best to deliver his message. Brad (40m 39s): And however, it was accepted, you know, that was out of his hands. And I realized that as a parent now, like I’ll spout for a long time and lecture my kids if they’re receptive and willing to listen. But I also know that it’s up to them, man, way more so than I thought, perhaps when my kids were younger. So a little tidbit for the parents out there, it’s really up to you, weighing less than you think. And your job is open doors, be supportive, give unconditional love the world’s a tough place. Anyway, you don’t have to be that tough. And if they’re going to be suited to, if their destiny is to be valedictorian or to be a division one scholarship athlete, they are going to find their way there, no matter what you do and what you say. Brad (41m 20s): And if their destiny is not to be that way. And you’re instead going to bribe a college admissions person to get them in, boy, that’s going to be a much less pleasant road than just sitting back and being that a supportive force and walking your talk. Of course. So that’s the other part. It’s like, whatever I say to my kids, if I’m telling them, Hey, you know, don’t do drugs and don’t drink and drive, blah, blah, blah. I want to stand as a person who let’s say has never done that in my whole life. And they can absorb that message very powerfully. Brad (41m 51s): When I’m looking at him in the eye and saying, you know what? You don’t need to learn the hard way with this stuff. You need to never f*****g do it. Dave (41m 57s): Well, I’ve found that my best parenting has been me being balanced and me being a great person inside and out and can allow me to then be my best parent, you know, or the best parent to my children. And I wrote this quote once, and I want to see if it’s a pertains to you is the view I have of myself as beautiful as the restraint, my inner voices attempt to sabotage it being yourself. So is your view of yourself as strong as your inner voice’s ability to restrain itself from sabotaging you? Brad (42m 40s): ‘Wow. That’s pretty heavy, man. Dave (42m 58s): So are you there? Is your view of yourself high enough, powerful enough, aligned enough or beautiful enough. Do you have a beautiful view of yourself to the point that you can restrain your inner voice from sabotaging you? Are you there? Brad (43m 0s): Oh yes, I am. I will also report that. I have a s**t ton of other issues assorted laundry list, but that’s not my area of struggle and weakness. And I think I attribute that to having a, an idyllic childhood where I didn’t have these traumatic, emotional disturbances and, you know, struggles that so many people report, you know, everything was cool. I had good friends and my parents were awesome and my brothers and sisters were still very close today. So I don’t have a lot to unwind and unprogram. Brad (43m 31s): I have a wonderful partner, Mia Moore, she’s the greatest partner in the world. So I really have nothing to complain about. And I’ve always been that glass half full kind of guy about everything. And then when it comes to like developing that self image and, and escaping the, you know, the forces of the ego that can control your life, I reference my athletic experience so strongly that it helped me escape from that forever. You know, I got over myself when I was a really young guy because I rose to the highest height that I could ever dream of. And then I fell and then I Rose again. Brad (44m 2s): And you realize like, all right, you know, the rest of the world will go on no matter what I do. And no matter who wins this race and, you know, it was, it was great because I can carry these forward today. And even as a parent, I remember, you know, in the early years you get really far into it, you have your peer group, that’s really deep into it. And you go to a gathering of adults and all they’re doing is talking about their kids and their sporting exploits in which teacher they have for fifth grade, who’s stronger in the liberal arts, but the other teacher is stronger in math. Brad (44m 35s): And you’re not sure if your kid’s in the right class and your, your head starts spinning that you get all consumed in this role as a parent. And then at some point you get spit out of that when your kid kind of grows up and learns how to use their middle finger or whatever it is, that turning point, I can reference a few of them with my son, where I trickily caught him in a, a misstatement of where he was late in the hours of the evening. Cause I conspired with another parent and, you know, they did the cross-referencing that I used to do when I was a kid like, Hey, I’m going over to Steve’s house. Brad (45m 6s): And Steve said, Hey, I’m going over to Brad’s house. And so, you know, I challenged him the next day. And I said, dude, so you know, where were you last night? Cause I happened to know that, you know, you didn’t tell me the truth and you know, I got all tough guy and puff my chest out. And I said, why’d you do that? And he goes, Oh, I did it because you wouldn’t have, let me do it. And because you don’t trust me enough, but you should be able to trust me. And I should be able to stay out longer than you think. And I’m like, Oh, okay. And you know, this was a kid who was never any trouble, a straight A student, a champion athlete. Brad (45m 38s): Self-driven self-motivated, I didn’t have to worry about him. And I was doing it just because of cultural programming or something. So from that point forward, I said, okay, here’s a deal. You can tell me where you’re going. So we can know for safety reasons. And I’ll give you way more rope and leeway. And the same thing came when we would go in there and check in with him, whether he did his homework or not. And his pat answer to his mom and I was, I’m getting straight. A’s leave me the F alone right now I’m playing video games. I get to do this. Cause I get to unwind some time. Brad (46m 8s): Let’s talk later when I’m not getting straight A’s anymore. And it’s like, what can you say about that to a kid except for hands-off have fun dinner will be served later. Please do the dishes afterward. Oh, it was great. Great stuff to learn from your kids. Dave (46m 22s): Yeah. Well, I think that’s a good answer. And I think it kind of leads me into maybe one or two of our last questions. One of the things you said earlier was that your show is different in the sense that you’re different than mainstream media in that you don’t know who these people are and you’re really exposing yourself to who you are and what you enjoy, what your experiences are, what your drives are, what your loves are. What have you not shared for us to know who you are? Brad (46m 50s): Oh, Dave Rossi, listen to this guy, people. And I asked you before we went on the air, like, Hey Dave, are you going to do a podcast someday? Or you’re such a natural at it. He was like, add on I’m too busy. But man, I think you’re, I think you’re killing it. I’m, I’m extremely captivated by your interviewing skills and putting me on the spot. Dave (47m 52s): What would I want to know? What do I think others want to know? I’ve listened to your show. And obviously I know you, and I think there’s many, many facets of things that intrigued me. And probably many of the listeners about you, including your drive, including your passion for so many different things like high jumping and speed golfing and chocolate and cold plunging and all this stuff. I mean the list goes, it goes on. And I really respect that passion because I think that’s a real zest to the physical world. And you know, I think that athletics is the ultimate spiritual lessons. So I have a lot of admiration for you, but I still think there’s some pieces are holding back and I might can know what you think. One of those are. You can share with us. Brad (47m 58s): Dang. I, I agree with you. Yeah. I, I’m trying to, I’m trying to think of a good answer, which would first indicate that I was holding something back, right? If I’m trying to craft an answer to this question, I already, I already flunked the question Dave (48m 22s): Or too vulnerable to even share it because you’re not there yet. Cause it might be pretty tough. I mean, there might be some real deep vulnerabilities that are tough to get out and I get that. Brad (48m 25s): Well, I certainly don’t have any deep dark secrets or have some image that I’ve crafted to, you know, hide the truth from the, from the world. But I, I will reference that a lot of times when I hear people open their, their, their diary all the way, it doesn’t really play well with me. Like, you know, the sob stories or the eliciting of sympathy when someone gets on the airwaves and says, yeah, you know, I’m really having a rough time. Brad (48m 57s): I lost my father last month. This is my first show back in the studio. And it’s like, yeah, you know what? There was that first show back in the studio after I lost my father. And a lot of people said, Hey, I’m sorry about you losing your father. And I’m like, what for? He was 97 freaking years old. And he lived 95 awesome years where he was knocking, hitting his ball right at the flag stick until he was 95. And everyone has to go at some point. Yeah. I thought he was going to live to be 107, but he didn’t and, and you know, 97 was pretty darn good. Brad (49m 27s): So I’m kind of averse to pouring my heart out with every little thing, connecting with the audience. Dave (49m 35s): Let’s say it has to be negative. I want, I want a piece of you that you haven’t shared yet. It doesn’t have to be, it could be. I like to wear, you know, women’s clothing. I don’t know. I’m looking for something that is kind of exclusively yours. I think we want to know, you want to know behind the scenes and it doesn’t have to be anything morose or sad. It has to be sending distinctively you. Brad (49m 59s): Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s one part of my answer was that I, I try not to, I try to be positive and not, you know, burden people with my problems on the air. And I know a lot of people do that and it doesn’t play too well with me, even though it is really vulnerable and authentic and you’re getting the real person every time. So I guess that’s one answer and then, you know, sharing something else. Well, Mia Moore has been brought into the public eye. Now we’ve done a few shows together and I kind of kept that low key because, you know, I went through a life transition of getting divorced after a long, a long marriage. Brad (50m 32s): And then, you know, I, I got in with this wonderful recent partner. We’ve been together for several years now and married for a year and a half and such. And I thought it was fun to, you know, turn the microphone on one day when we were in the bedroom and introduce her to my world. So I hope to bring her on for many more shows. Cause I love talking with her about relationship dynamics and we feel really open and honest with each other. We have no problem talking about any topic, even difficult ones and we’ll have some difficult conversations about whatever it is. Brad (51m 8s): Cause we, we have a lot thrown at us in life these days with a lot of life changes and things that are potentially stressful, but it usually goes so well that I really want to share more of that with the audience. I haven’t, I haven’t shared much about, you know, my own personal love relationship dynamics. I’m more interviewing John Gray than talking to my own wife on the air. So I look forward to doing more of that and giving people a greater insight to, to that I think are. Dave (51m 37s): And the reason why I asked that question and I have one more question to ask you before we have to go. The reason why I ask that question is because a lot of people that listen to you, I believe listen to you for you. And I think secondarily, they listened to you for what content that you’re going to give. And I think the content is interesting and there’s, there’s a piece of that, but I think it’s also Brad Kearns. I think, I think a lot of people trust that advice and they want to get to know you. And I think those real vulnerable behind the curtain kind of conversations about relationships or loves or fears, Hey, I don’t know. Dave (52m 8s): I don’t know if I want to do this anymore or I don’t know if this floats my boat anymore or I’m having too much success in something that I don’t really care that much about. And I want more success in this thing I do care about. I think those are actually really great things to talk about because people trust you. I mean, I do. I mean, I, I think I’m sharing my, my desires, I guess for this interview too. Brad (52m 33s): Oh yeah. The connection. Oh God, a little jumpy there and I thought you said too much sex rather than too much sex. Dave (52m 42s): No, your mind was there. My mind was on success. Yeah. I would be a different show. Brad (-): Yeah. I like that. Dave (-): By Brad Kearns: How Professional athletes have sex Brad (52m 54s): At age 55, hanging in there, taking their MOFO pills and sleeping enough Dave (53m 15s): and doing the MOFO pills. If you have one bit of advice. And do you have maybe a minute left, one bit of advice to give an 18 year old Brad Kearns. What would that advice be? Brad (53m 15s): But get over yourself first and foremost. And what else can you say? I mean, Dave (53m 40s): Nothing about food. Nothing about training, Nothing about love, Nothing about You. You’ve had so many great guests on you. You you’re going to go back in time and you can’t give these documents because that’d be inside trader, but you’re gonna go back in time and you’re going to get young Brad Kearns at tech, and you’re going to say little dude, do this. What’s that going to be? Brad (53m 47s): Well, I think I was destined to follow my own path no matter what, no matter what advice I received. And so I would kind of reinforce the importance of doing so. And, you know, encourage my young, my younger self to, to trust myself completely and be bold and daring and never look back and never succumb to these huge cultural pressures and forces that led me to try to conform. For example, I spent my college years studying economics with accounting emphasis because I was told by my peers and experts that if you get a degree in accounting, you can pass the CPA test. Brad (54m 32s): And then you go to law school and then to become a tax attorney, which has the highest income category of any attorney. So I was like, Oh, okay. So I take these classes and I do this. And my accounting career lasted 11 and a half weeks. And I got a law school application on my desk and I completed half of it. And then I had to get a teacher recommendation and I didn’t meet or know any professor at all my entire duration at UC Santa Barbara. I sat in the back, I escaped early if the waves were up and you know, I didn’t form any relationships. Brad (55m 2s): So I got the courage to go ask professor Morgan for a letter of recommendation. I literally knocked on his professor door and I had my transcript in hand because I knew he wouldn’t recognize me. And I said, sir, I got an A plus in your business law class and an A plus in your econ two class. And I need this letter of recommendation for UCLA law school. Would you mind doing it for me? I know you don’t know me. And he said, Oh, that’s my Alma mater. I have a lot of influence there with the admissions office. I would love to write you a letter of recommendation. But before I do, I want to ask you one question and I don’t want you to answer right away. Brad (55m 33s): I want you to think about it and come back tomorrow. And the question is, are you passionate about the law? And I said, Oh, well, I don’t really know. I think it was don’t answer right now. He goes, come back tomorrow. He goes, if you’re passionate about the law, I will write you the most glowing recommendation from your GPA. You’re going to get in there. And if you’re not passionate about the law, you will get your ass kicked so hard. I don’t care what your grades are. It’s not going to work for you. And I went home and I thought about it for a little and I dumped the application in the garbage can. Brad (56m 5s): And I thank that guy for having a turning point in my life. And it’s kind of answering your question because there was a guy giving advice to an 18 year old that was profound, but it was, it was received in a way that, you know, I could really embrace it. It wasn’t someone pounding it down on my head. So I’d talked to that young guy and say, you know, just follow your whims and, you know, be a throw caution to the wind, really Dave (56m 27s): What a great story and what a great word that teacher used, which is passion. I think that’s such a great use of that story. I I’m, I think it was a great, great answer and a great story. Thank you for that. dWell, I have to talk to you all day. I don’t know how long you want your show to go with, with me interviewing you, which I’m happy to do endlessly, but maybe you want to keep it under an hour. Brad (56m 53s): I think you did a great job and it was so fun to be on the other side, especially to get those, you know, perceptive and probing questions. And that’s one thing that I love about podcasting is you have an opportunity to go deep in a different way than you can. If it’s a written article or things like that, or, you know, conveying your message in a book and kind of gets into that free flowing place where we didn’t know where this show was going. And it was kind of fun to just take it along the way. Brad (57m 23s): And you know, both of us kind of having a good time here and engaged, like we are in person and hopefully the listener, you know, got something out of it and had some entertainment value, at least Dave (57m 36s): Well let’s hope so. It’s always hard for me not to interject the things that I know. And it was very hard for me not to not to, to show that side to me. So it was a lot of restraint on my behalf to really continue to make it about you. And I really enjoyed that. Brad (57m 52s): A great exercise for Dave Rossi. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you, you framed the conversation well, when you, you, you know, extracted my mindset in that battle, that I, that I fight every day with, you know, trying to be a peak performer and, you know, mark down the great achievements in my life versus trying to, you know, go with the flow and live in acceptance and, and live in peace and gratitude and not be attached to every single outcome. So that’s what I like about your work and your book. Brad (58m 23s): And it’s keeping these things fresh and keeping, continuing to talk about them and put them as part of your, your daily life, rather than just kind of working hard and then unplugging with digital entertainment. I prefer doing stuff like this to vegging out in front of the TV. So Dave (58m 40s): Plugin, because you said it, those words you used like gratitude and awareness, and you also said keeping things fresh and keeping things going, those same words can continue to be fresh and new as you learn and develop a new definition of them as you learn and develop new context and new understanding and new comprehension of your own psyche and continue to be programming your brain in different ways. Maybe it’s the battle of athletics or it’s the battle of money, or it’s the battle of, of relationships. Dave (59m 20s): Those same lines, Words will change definition in time, and they themselves can be fresh. You don’t have to go create a new, new thing beyond creating a new way to perceive the same thing. Brad (59m 28s): Love it, love it all. Dave (59m 29s): Well, Brad, thank you for allowing me to do this with you. I love my time with you. Thank you so much. And I thank your listeners for letting me do this. Brad (1h 0m 20s): Dave Rossi people. And the next time you hear from him on this show, he’s going to be in the interview hot seat. I can’t wait to go, go deeper and pick up where we left off last time. And just to tease the, the listener on that we talked about off the air, this little side comment you made to me, it kind of an offhanded comment, and I’ve been thinking about it nonstop for several weeks. So I want to end with that tantalizing thought of where we could take this on the next interview with you. And that is, you said, I might be butchering it and you can correct me, but it was something that everything we do is simply a pursuit of a hormonal experience. Like a dopamine hit is the most obvious one, but there’s so many other ones behind that statement. It’s all about answering to our biology or something like that. You said. Yeah, Dave (1h 0m 25s): I guess then again, we’d love that topic. I think it’s a wonderful topic. And when I finally realized what that meant, and I finally realized how my body is affected by stimulus and how that stimulus is interpreted by my brain. And now my brain processes that it changed my life and it changes my choices and it changes everything about me. And I’m being loved, loved topics are more Brad (1h 0m 48s): Okay, People. Will get ready for the next one. Thank you for listening. Dave (1h 0m 55s): Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedbac at getoveryourselfpodcastatgmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to thanks for doing it.



Dr. Casey is a Stanford-trained head and neck surgeon who ditched a promising medical career to plunge into the world of functional medicine and healing disease by attacking the root cause of inflammation. You will love the story of her amazing journey of blending insights from genetic science to observe the shortcomings of western medicine as sick care rather than health care. Dr. Casey describes our current model as “reactionary medicine,” where we play “whack the mole” by attacking the symptoms of various diseases with drugs and surgery.

Casey describes the frustration of seeing many patients returning for the same invasive procedures that were caused by lifestyle-driven inflammation. After leaving surgery and getting additional training in functional medicine, Dr. Casey presents a unique, hands-on approach to patient care focused on optimizing lifestyle behaviors that will promote health and prevent disease. The centerpiece is the emerging technology of Continuous Glucose Monitoring (CGM) that she offers to clients as a co-founder of LevelsHealth.com operation. 

In this show, you’ll learn why metabolic dysfunction is perhaps the most distressing disease condition of modern times. This is represented mainly by an inability to regulate glucose or burn fat efficiently. You’ll be inspired to take personal responsibility for your health, especially through the use of a now-affordable and accessible CGM device, and learn the importance of tight glucose regulation to feel and look your best. Dr. Casey is passionate about helping people on the “root-cause level” and loves to watch her clients’ health transform as they work on their metabolic fitness. She also stresses the importance of individualizing your lifestyle and diet, especially while you’re working towards metabolic optimization because knowing what works for your own body will empower you with knowledge that allows you to make the healthiest, most beneficial decisions for yourself. “What’s healthy for you, may not be healthy for me,” Dr. Casey reminds us. 


Brad interviews a surgeon who discovered most of her patients needed to improve their lifestyle rather than be under the knife. [01:43]

Environmental factors change the expression of our biological blueprint. [05:20]

Newer medical ideas expand from “here are these symptoms; here is the treatment.” [07:59]

The majority of the diseases that are plaguing our country are diseases that are chronic illnesses based in lifestyle and dietary decisions. [10:23]

As an ENT surgeon, Dr. Means realized that most of the cases were inflammatory in nature. [12:41]

Is there a profit motive involved in the medical profession that keeps the “Whack-a-Mole” system going? [16:52]

Research suggests that more dietary and lifestyle interventions and health maintenance are the highest value. [21:07]

The insurance companies share the risk across a large population, some of which will be very ill and some very healthy. [23:35]

Symptoms arise from biologic dysfunction. Functional Medicine looks at all the variable functions. [25:24]

Every day we make hundreds, if not thousands of small decisions that affect our biological reality. Even how we respond to a stressful email, translates through our hormones to affect our cellular biology. [28:43]

There is an emerging technology of continuous glucose monitoring which is a powerful behavior modifier. [30:14]

The fluctuations in glucose levels may be potentially more harmful than sustained high glucose levels alone.  [34:53]

Metabolic dysfunction is the root of infertility, erectile dysfunction, anxiety, and depression. [37:19]

Could one deliver normal fasting glucose but still be getting into trouble with poor glucose variability? [39:01]

What kind of particulars might influence our varied responses to white rice? [45:07]

After a sprint workout where the glycogen is depleted, what happens when I have an ice cream treat? [48:52]   

Is the afternoon slump always associated with a blood glucose drop? Is it manageable? [50:46]

 If two people eat the exact same number of calories per day, the exact same food, but they eat them at different times of the day, they will have a totally different metabolic outcome. [54:44]

In our culture, we are eating 150 pounds of refined sugar on average per person per year. [01:03:17]

Realize that when you are getting in stressful situations like traffic or at the workplace, you are spiking your glucose just like going down the street to get a Hostess Pie [01:05:16]



  • “We have this really unique genetic blueprint, and environmental factors (what we expose ourselves to, what we eat, how we live) change the expression of this biological blueprint. But while we do have this set blueprint, we have agency in what we choose to expose ourselves to.”


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Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (1m 43s): DListeners. We have a live wire on the line. It’s dr. Casey means and get ready for a fast moving super exciting, incredibly informative show about metabolic health. And, Oh my gosh, what a story Casey has for you of her life journey through the traditional medical environment and intensive training to become a surgeon, and then having this awakening, this life change, where she realized that all the people she was operating on were coming to her with inflammatory conditions that could be possibly righted by healthy lifestyle practices. Brad (2m 23s): And that plunged her into a completely different career path. She’s at the forefront of technology and functional medicine. She’s going to talk to you about the amazing continuous glucose monitoring, new technology that you can access yourself and learn about all the different lifestyle practices that affect blood glucose. So we’re going to talk through all manner of topics relating to the traditional medical care environment, the traditional approach, that disease based approach and all the different options and alternatives you have, including this breakthrough of strapping a device onto your body and checking your glucose readings throughout the day. Brad (3m 4s): It’s been absolutely life changing for many people, and you’re going to get some good scientific insights from >r. Casey, but she does a wonderful job couching them in practical terminology and easy to understand approach. And also quick tips. One of them was when you have that glucose dip, you know, that afternoon blues, where you’re likely to reach for a snack to get a boost. She suggests instead waiting it out, profound advice. Your body will come back strong, but if you keep going on the roller coaster of the Jack in a box approach. Brad (3m 39s): So we got Jack in a box mentioned, we got, whack-a-mole mentioned. It’s a really fun and lively show. I’m going to have her on again because we teed up a part two at the very end of the show. When we talked about alternative approaches to healthy eating. Fascinating insights. Here we go with Dr. Casey Means of Dr. Casey’s kitchen.com. Dr. Casey Means we are so warmed up, like never before for a zoom episode. Brad (4m 12s): Why? Because we hung out in a beautiful park in Portland only a week ago, just random, you know, scheduling. And then here you’re on the podcast. It’s so it’s so great to connect with you and we’re going to, we’re going to hit it hard right now. Casey (4m 24s): I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me, Brad. And it was definitely the highlight of my week to get to meet you last week in person. So what a, what a serendipitous event to have you driving through Portland the week before this podcast. So wonderful. Brad (4m 39s): Oh, thank you. And what was also amazing was to hear just a tidbit of your, your life journey. So I’d love to introduce you to the listeners with this amazing, I guess, transformation of going hardcore into the, the mainstream educational medical career. Here she is, she’s all set up. She did her hard eight years at Stanford, not four, people, but eight and wearing red every time I see you just because of that. Brad (5m 9s): And you have the right to, of course, but tell us about your educational background and then the, the changes that came about quickly into your career as a surgeon. Casey (5m 20s): Absolutely. Yeah, so I was, I started at Stanford as an undergrad around in 2005. So this was right after the human genome project had just wrapped up. And Silicon Valley was just a buzz with personalized genetics and, you know, direct to consumer personalized gene testing. And so 23 and Me was popping up and it was just a very exciting time to be interested in biology and, and at Stanford. And so that was really formative in terms of my medical education to be in that sort of ecosystem of personalized health. Casey (5m 53s): And so that’s what I majored in. I studied personalized genetics. I was a TA for Russ Altman’s, you know, first sort of personalized genomics class at Stanford. He’s head of the bioinformatics department there. And I worked at 23 and Me when I was an undergrad. So I came into understanding the human body really, as we are this really unique individual genetic blueprint and environmental factors. So what we expose our to ourselves to, while we eat what we do, how we live, these are all environmental factors that change the expression of this biologic blueprint. Casey (6m 31s): And so in that sense, it’s an incredibly empowering view of health because we, while we do have this sort of set blueprint, we have agency in what we choose to expose ourselves to. And, and we can change that. We can have differential expression of that template by those choices. And so making smart choices is really the key to, you know, moving on the spectrum towards health or disease. And what’s also interesting what we’re learning even more. Casey (7m 2s): This wasn’t not even a term when I was in college, but now the whole epigenetics revolution is happening. And we’re actually understanding that while our blueprint is fixed, the folding of the blueprint is actually variable as well. So what genes are even able to be expressed at a given time is also modifiable by the choices that we’re making. So on every level there is room for intervention and action. So that was really foundational for my, my view of health and my view of the body. Casey (7m 32s): So flash forward, you know, I go to medical school and I’m also at Stanford for medical school. And there, it was a totally different ethos about health than what I’d been exposed to as an undergraduate, because Brad (7m 48s): Down the hall in one building over, people are talking about gene expression and epigenetics, and then you go to medical school and they’re like cut here with the scalpel to remove the, the tumor. Casey (7m 59s): Exactly. You know, it’s, it’s a little bit paint by numbers and it’s very, very cookbook and really modern medicine is all about pattern recognition. It’s here are a set of symptoms, which are subjective factors, and here are signs which are objective factors about a patient. And if these signs and these symptoms match up, then we’re going to label it with this diagnosis. And then once you have that diagnosis, ding, ding, ding, you’re set, because now you have this set of drugs or this set of invasive interventions to offer the patient. Casey (8m 31s): And that’s, that’s pretty much a to Z. And so that was somewhat disheartening to me because I was coming with a very different perspective of really thinking about biochemical individuality and the biochemistry of disease and really cellular biology. But a lot of those things, while we learn about them, in terms of actual clinical practice, kind of get brushed under the carpet in favor of this very high throughput pattern recognition and reactionary medicine. Casey (9m 3s): And so with that pattern recognition, you also get into this mindset of a very reactive nature of healthcare. So a healthy person’s not going to have a lot of signs and symptoms. So the doctor’s job really isn’t necessary there it’s only until you have those signs and symptoms that you come to the doctor and they do this labeling process. So what it does is it creates a culture where you’re really not thinking about or addressing the patient without disease. And you’re only really giving them attention and energy when they’ve, when they’ve started to have dysfunction and symptoms emerge. Brad (9m 38s): And I guess that’s okay because when my plumbing pipes are backed up, I want to call the guy with the tools to clear them up. But he’s not the same as the contractor that should have installed it the right way in the first place. And, you know, I’m, I’m coming from a medical family and they do such wonderful work, especially on the front lines. And it seems like anytime you hear like a, a criticism of mainstream medicine, it’s, it might be warranted, but it’s also taken out of context. And I think the patient has so much responsibility to, to, to make good choices and protect their health so that they’re not coming in, in a disease state or relying on medicine and pharmaceuticals to, you know, to, to write a course that could be easily write it in another way. Casey (10m 23s): Absolutely. And just like you said, with the plumber, there is always going to be this great role for someone who can come in and fix a problem. If you have a broken bone or get in a car accident and your skull is split open, you know, that’s not the time to probably talk about nutritional interventions or environmental exposures. That’s when our ultra advanced health healthcare system can really come in and be lifesaving. And that’s wonderful. But the reality is, is that the majority of the diseases that are plaguing our country and more and more our globe are diseases that are chronic illnesses based in lifestyle and dietary decisions. Casey (10m 60s): And these, these daily decisions that have stacked up day after day, year, over year, that have led people towards chronic disease. And so to approach those diseases with this reactionary mindset, as opposed to trying to unpack the factors that lead to disease, you know, starts to feel a little bit illogical. And so certainly for those acute cases, modern medicine react fix, that’s very important, but that’s a small fraction of what’s affecting people. These days, what’s impairing productivity, what’s causing pain and suffering, and what’s driving our astronomical, you know, $3.4 trillion healthcare costs. Casey (11m 36s): So, so this was kind of this balance I was trying to figure out as I was in medical school, you know, how do I feel about this? And ultimately I got bit by the surgery bug. And I think I got bit by the surgery bug for a couple reasons. One, because just feels so, you know, bad ass and it’s, it’s fun to be in the operating room, but really to me, it was like, okay, so this is the landscape of medicine. These are the realities of clinical practice. What I want to do is I want to help patients and I want to fix things. And so surgery looks really appealing because you can go in and you can fix something. Casey (12m 11s): And at the end of the day, you have this very tangible result. Like you said, if there’s a lump in the neck, take it out. If the sinus is filled with pus, punch a hole in the sinus, suck the puss out, boom you’ve won. And so that was very, very attractive to me. And so I, you know, go to residency, I do head and neck surgery, which is essentially your nose and throat surgeries. And, and the beginning of that does feel really good. You know, you’re really able to make these meaningful improvements very quickly in a short amount of time for a patient. Casey (12m 41s): But over time, I was in the operating room day in and day out. And I’m realizing interesting, pretty much all of the conditions that I’m treating in the operating room are inflammatory in nature. This is funny. So, so a lot of the things I was treating and ENT were chronic sinusitis, which is inflammation of the nasal tissue, which causes blockages. And then you get pus building up and then you punch a hole in it. You drain the pus out chronic ear disease. You know, kids who are getting lots of ear infections and pus in the middle ear. You, this is inflammation of the eustachian tube, which is the tube that drains the ear into the nose. Casey (13m 16s): And when that gets clogged, you get inflammation in the middle ear, you get pus. And so you put, you bust a little hole in the eardrum and you put a tube in there and the pus comes out, you’ve got Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, which is increasing in rates in the country, especially in women. And this is inflammation of the thyroid. And you’ve got all these vocal core conditions. You’ve got polyps, you got granulomas. And these are inflammatory masses, the vocal cords. So I’m, I’m sitting there thinking this doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that we’re treating inflammatory disorders with a physical intervention when inflammation is a process that’s dynamic and it’s happening in the body, usually because it’s being triggered by something, some sort of threat. Casey (13m 55s): And so it got me to step back and say, what is this threat? It’s it shouldn’t be normal that everyone seems to have these issues. And when we do the surgery, they come back a year later for their revision design, a surgery it’s painful, you know, and so, you know, I said, I got to think more deeply about this. And that led to a real journey of understanding inflammation and what are the root causes of these diseases. And that led to a real journey to network biology and systems biology, which are really sort of modern areas of, of the bio-sciences based on, you know, whole genome sequencing proteomics that are telling us what, when you look at all diseases, what are the common links between diseases that underlie these manifestations currently? Casey (14m 43s): Because we’re in a labeling medical system, we say these symptoms lead to this disease, but that’s not actually talking about what is the physiology that lead to disease. And when you can understand the core root cause physiology amongst disparate diseases, instead of then playing constant medical, whack-a-mole where you’re just like one disease, isolated silo, whack-a-mole with a symptom-based drug, you know, whack-a-mole for arthritis, whack-a-mole for sinusitis, whack-a-mole for anxiety, whack-a-mole for cancer them over prostatitis. Casey (15m 14s): You look at all of them and you say, Oh, interesting. All of them have upregulation of TNF alpha and inflammatory cytokine. All of them have, you know, upregulation of NF Kappa B, a genetic pathway, that’s a master inflammatory pathway. And then you start to think, how do I impact that? How do I impact inflammation, NF Kappa B and, and potentially in one efficient fell swoop using sort of my modern biologic research help a patient in this multifarious way, as opposed to the whack-a-mole, which is extremely lucrative, you know, and, and read subspecialties a sentence essentially. Casey (15m 51s): And so long story short, that was a journey. I, I really came to understand that the root of chronic inflammation that underlies the majority of our chronic diseases is based in diet and lifestyle. I think the biggest or lowest hanging fruit there is the way that metabolic dysfunction, how we process energy in the body leads to inflammation. Metabolic dysfunction is a rampant in our country. And the same inflammatory mediators that are related to metabolic dysfunction are the ones that are upregulated in all of these other inflammatory diseases. Casey (16m 25s): So if we can impact that, what can we do for all these patients? And so, yeah, that led me out of the operating room. I, I left surgery and I decided I really wanted to devote my career, my brain power to people out of operating room, reducing inflammation and metabolic dysfunction at scale. And helping people feel empowered to make choices that change the physiology of disease. So that’s, that’s the triumphant. Brad (16m 52s): You said a few interesting things. One of them, the, the lucrative nature of playing Whack-A-Mole, and I’m wondering, I know this is not, the medical world is not filled with devious deceitful people looking to make money like a used car salesman that lie about the odometer. But I’m wondering if there is an element of laziness or lack of space in the brain to step back, like you said, quote, Dr. Brad (17m 25s): Casey said, quote, I stepped back out of the operating room and realized that all of these are inflammatory based conditions. And you know, when, when you have a full slate of surgery scheduled, you don’t have time to step back. You just have to get the pus out of the sinus to speak graphically to our listeners. But I’m just wondering why we haven’t come to these revelations as a, as a society. Is there, is there like influences like the, the profit motive that’s blinding us or something? Casey (17m 57s): I think it’s, that’s a great question. And I think, I do think a lot of where we’re at in terms of our medical culture is rooted in a history of healthcare economics. And I, I don’t think this is necessarily relevant at the individual practitioner level, but I think it’s very relevant at the systems level. So when we were setting up how we were going to finance healthcare, you know, 50, 60, 70 years ago, we, we decided that we were going to basically code things. And then we were going to bill for codes. And that honestly was I think the beginning of the end for thinking about prevention, because you can code diseases and you can code objective abnormalities, like objectively, you know, lab values that are problematic, but you can’t code just being healthy, your meme, you know, metabolically functional. Casey (18m 44s): So you code problems and then you bill for those problems. And so that was a way to organize the system tip for efficiency basically. And so we set up this, this fee for service healthcare system, where you get paid when you do something. So there’s really a bias towards action. And what’s interesting about a healthy patient is that you don’t really have to do anything to them. When you get a patient who is healthy, you have essentially lost a customer because you don’t have to do anything to help them, you know, at that point, sure. Casey (19m 15s): You could help them with continued preventative strategies, but someone who’s super dialed into stress management, sleep, diet and exercise is generally going to be someone that you’re not going to probably make a lot of money off or be able to bill or code for. So flash forward, you know, now we’ve got this gigantic healthcare industry that does profit off doing things to patients, without prescribing medication doing surgical interventions. So, so I think that is foundationally part of what has guided our research culture, our medical education culture, and our practice habits, even though we may not be cognizant of it on the individual physician level. Casey (19m 55s): And I think people are somewhat aware of this because you hear a lot of talk now of moving towards what’s called a value based care system, which is a move in the right direction so that the value equation is outcomes over cost. So you want good outcomes and low costs that would lead to a high value number. So you see in Obamacare and a lot of those discussions, they started talking about we’re going to pay for value. And so we’re going to objectively measure outcomes, and we’re going to object to them about your costs and try and make that better. Well, what’s great about that is that lifestyle interventions like improving diet or exercising are the highest value interventions you could possibly have. Casey (20m 32s): Exercising 150 minutes a week is going to slash your risk of chronic disease. And it’s essentially free. So that is a positive movement. And then you’ve got other systems separate from the fee versus service systems like capitated and HMO models. And these are systems where instead of paying fee for service, you are giving a lump sum of money to a healthcare system for a particular patient and saying, this isn’t the money that you get do with it, what you will, but what you make in terms of profit is what’s left over after your interventions. Casey (21m 4s): So that’s going to promote, again, high value. You, you are having to compete for customers. So you have to do a good job and you want the highest bottom line. So you’re essentially going to be the cheapest stuff that’s most effective. So in those systems like Kaiser, you see a lot more in the realm of health coaching, you see a lot more free, you know, primary care visits and things like that. And health promotion, because the research by and large suggests that those more dietary and lifestyle interventions and health maintenance are the highest value, highest ROI intervention. Casey (21m 38s): So… Brad (21m 39s): Yeah, the billboards by Kaiser, they must cost a lot of money where they’re saying thrive and pictures of people out there being healthy. So it seems like they have a vested interest in keeping people healthy. This might be an aside, but I’m curious, you know, healthcare premiums are not cheap, right? But even someone like me, who’s paid into the system, my whole life as healthy as can be. And I had a single incident in the last 40 years where I ruptured my appendix. I had to have emergency surgery. Brad (22m 10s): I had some complications and, and I wasn’t, you know, it was into the doctor’s office and having followup surgeries. And that pretty much busted all my premiums. And then some, and I’m, I would say one of the healthier people who consume healthcare. So how are these companies even making a profit when even the slightest trip to the surgical center is such astronomical costs Casey (22m 35s): In the companies, in terms of insurance companies? Brad (22m 37s): Yeah. Casey (22m 39s): It’s, it’s a good question. I think that, first of all, I’m sorry to hear about your appendix. That sounds like quite, quite the ordeal Brad (22m 50s): Little tidbit to the listeners. If you go into the emergency room and you report your pain is 10 out of 10, don’t go home. Cause they sent me home saying that I was fine. And then I went home and had a burst in bed and I laid there for 12 more hours and it turned into be a horrible situation. It could have been easily, you know, kind of alleviated, but I was trying to be such a tough guy because I don’t want to go and get extra care that I don’t need or take pain meds or any of that silly stuff. But I, I learned my lesson and totally recalibrated my approach to health and wellbeing, where there’s a time and a place to be self sufficient. Brad (23m 27s): And then when you got 10 out of 10 pain, you go in there and you stay there until they figure something out and back to the show with Dr.Casey’s Casey (23m 35s): So one benefit that insurance companies have is that they, they share risk across a large population, some of which are going to be very ill and some of which are going to be healthy. And part of having this universal mandate for healthcare that was proposed with Obamacare is that if you can get more, especially the healthy population into the insurance pools, it’s essentially gonna lower, lower cost overall. Brad (23m 60s): Hey, for all them smokers. Oh right. Thank you. Casey (24m 3s): Yeah. So I think there’s, that’s part of the equation. There is that for one person like you, who is having, you know, an appendix rupture and maybe a 30, $40,000 surgery and treatment course, you’ve got a bunch of young people who are never seeing the doctor and not on any medications who are also paying into that system, quite high premiums and deductibles and sharing that load a little bit. And then another thing that factors into it is that the bill that you get is not necessarily the bill that the insurance company is paying to the hospital. Casey (24m 36s): There’s a lot of price fluctuation that goes on and there’s a lot of bargaining. And that goes into between insurance companies and hospitals about what’s going to be reimbursed. And when you get to be really, really large, you have a lot of bargaining power. And so the costs in healthcare are notoriously untransparent and notoriously unfixed. And so what you’re paying at one hospital for the same procedure versus another is going to be very, very different. So there’s a lot of complexity to it, but I think those are some of the factors that’s the plan. Brad (25m 8s): Okay, so you a once and for all walked out of the operating room, never to return most likely, and you had this vision to, to make a difference at the, at the symptom level. And where did that take you? Casey (25m 24s): Yeah, so that took me to getting additional training in functional medicine and functional medicine is essentially the clinical practice of everything I just described. So trying to understand health and illness on the biochemical level and understanding the physiology that leads to disease. So symptoms don’t just arise in a vacuum. It’s not just this magical thing that happens. Symptoms arise from biologic dysfunction. And if we can understand cellular and biologic dysfunction, we can then try and impact at that level to, and when you affect it, that level symptoms melt away. Casey (25m 59s): So this is not about treating symptoms like treating pain with a pain medication that blocks your perception of pain. It’s treating the pathway that leads to pain. And so that was much more compelling to me and much more interesting. And so I got initial training with the Institute for Functional Dedicine. Then I opened up my own functional medicine, private practice in Portland, Oregon. And so there, I was taking an extremely high touch approach to patient care. I was really trying to understand all of the different variables that go into leading to cellular dysfunction. Casey (26m 32s): So what people are eating, how people are managing stress, what are unresolved traumas from their life that are leading to deep seated, chronic stressful stress activation, the and autonomic system, or, you know, impairment, what is their exercise? What are their relationships like? What are their core beliefs about their purpose and value? What are the environmental toxins they’re being exposed to like digging in super deeply because that upfront investment with the patient, I’ve really doing a full landscape assessment of these environmental factors that change expression of health or disease. Casey (27m 6s): Once you get to the bottom of them and create, you know, a very personalized plan for these things, it’s often a very efficient process. They get better, they feel better and, and you’re sort of done. And so that is, that is really, was so heartening to me. But what I realized early on in my practice is that the big challenge is not necessarily figuring out what the dysfunction is. We have amazing lab tests and even taking a super thorough history and having an understanding of, you know, the cellular basis of disease. Casey (27m 38s): You can really put things together and understand how to potentially help people, but then they leave your office. And the next step is they actually have to do the things day in and day out that lead to different conditions in the cells that let those symptoms melt away. Brad (27m 54s): Great visit. Thank you, Dr. Casey. Great advice. I got so many tips. Thanks for the handout. Okay, bye. Where’s the salt and straw. Is that down the street? Okay. Casey (28m 5s): What’s funny is that there is a salt and straw. It’s true. So, so that became a real, really real intellectual interest for me of my goal is, is not to just have a one on one visit. It is to get people to change the behaviors that change their lives. And so behavior change really has to be a key component of this. And, and that’s not something that we’re really taught in medical school, how to be effective agents of behavior change. And so in my head, I was visualizing the situation where I could be on the shoulder of all of my patients every single day saying, Hey, Oh no, no, no, you shouldn’t do that. Casey (28m 43s): Oh, you should do that. Oh, good job. You’re doing a great job. Like when they walk towards the pelotons saying, yes, yes. Get on the peloton, you know, get on the treadmill when they walk towards the cookie saying, Oh, you probably don’t want to do the refined carbs, but I can’t be that. And for a little while, I kind of tried to be that, but it’s totally unsustainable. You know, you can’t be emailing with your patients every single day, all day evaluating all of their decisions. And every day we make hundreds, if not thousands of small decisions that affect what our biologic reality is going to be, even how we respond to a stressful email, translates through our hormones to affect our cellular biology. Casey (29m 15s): So it needs to be something that’s more in their hands and they need to feel empowered to make those lifestyle decisions. So very quickly in my functional medicine practice, I realized I really needed to understand behavior change better. And I wanted to support the development of tools that would help people make those decisions on their own. I also really liked the idea of people being empowered to make their own choices and not me telling people how to make their own choices. So that led me to start consulting to digital health companies that were helping people with biofeed bait back based behavior change tools that essentially empower individuals with their own data to make those good choices. Casey (29m 56s): So, so now that’s sort of how I split my time. I I’m a cofounder of a company that’s in the behavior change space to improve metabolic health at scale. And then I also still have my functional medicine, private practice, and I’m helping individuals, which really is as you know, a wonderful, still something I really enjoy doing. So, Brad (30m 14s): Yeah, it seems like this emerging technology of the continuous glucose monitor is one of the most powerful potential behavior modifiers because you have this real time information. Your company’s called them Levels. RightL And tell us a little about what they do. I know they have the CGM technology and I think you have ambitions to, to add more biofeedback and other tools for the, the self contained human to make good decisions. Casey (30m 44s): Yeah. So, so essentially this company that I co founded it’s called Level and it is leveraging this new tech, this technology called continuous glucose monitoring technology as a biofeedback tool to help people make decisions about diet and lifestyle in real time that are best for their personal biology. So you can kind of think of the level system as like Fitbit for glucose. And for while I’ve got my little sentence around my arms Brad (31m 10s): Viewers, she’s got a sensor on her arm, pretty cool. Casey (31m 13s): So this is a small quarter size shape, a device that attaches to your arm for 14 days. And it’s got a tiny little hair like thread that goes under the skin. That’s monitoring your glucose 24 hours a day. And glucose is a fabulous biomarker to track in the body. It’s the only biomarker you can track at home from, from the blood in real time. And what’s so great about it is that it is a core substrate of our metabolism. So glucose is sugar. And when you process carbohydrates, glucose goes into the bloodstream and your glucose levels go up and down, you know, all the time throughout the day. Casey (31m 48s): And so what’s really unique about glucose is it’s not only affected by food, but it’s also affected by exercise. It’s affected by sleep. It’s affected by stress. So it’s this mold, it’s this readout of all these multi-variate inputs that many of us are trying to optimize in our daily life already. And it closes the loop between how those different behaviors impact your health in real time. So for instance, like, you know, let’s say you’re going about your day. Casey (32m 19s): And all of a sudden you get this, you know, total energy slump and it’s like afternoon. And you’re just like, Oh my God, I need to take a nap. It’s 2:00 PM. You don’t really know if that’s just your personality and your nature. If that’s from the poor, night’s sleep the night before. If that’s from the pressed juice you just had, or if it’s from the stressful email that you just got from your boss, and you’re kind of reacting to that. That’s really, it’s really difficult to know to close the loop on what led to that reaction. And so the really cool thing about wearing a continuous glucose monitor is you can say like, Oh, I had a pressed juice, which I thought was healthy, but it skyrocketed my blood sugar to 180 and then it crashed down to like 65 and you had reactive hypoglycemia. Casey (32m 58s): And then I immediately felt tired. That’s really interesting. And so all of a sudden you can link that action, the juice with some subjective experience and your glucose numbers and say, you know what, maybe that juice is not for me. Maybe if I had something that stabilize my glucose a little bit better during lunch, I wouldn’t have that crash. And over time doing that for all aspects of diet and lifestyle, you basically can generate a set of behaviors that lead to essentially flat and stable glucose, and really have a huge impact on, on subjective experience of day to day life, while also preventing some of that downstream metabolic dysfunction, that results from always having those swings in glucose day after day, year after year, that that marks you down that sort of spectrum of metabolic dysfunction. Casey (33m 49s): So, so it’s a really, really cool technology. And, and what our company does is we take this, this sensor and we basically facilitate access to it for health seeking individuals who are trying to optimize diet and lifestyle. And we pair it with our software, which takes this glucose data stream and parses it out and helps just basically hands people on a silver platter information and insights about how their choices are affecting their glucose response and how to, how to improve it. Brad (34m 19s): So, generally speaking, we want to have a tight regulation of our blood glucose levels. I’ve read that there’s only a teaspoon in your entire blood volume of a six or seven liters or something, which is such a mind blowing thing. So we’re, we’re really working hard in the liver with whatever we’re doing producing insulin to lower it, making glucose, if we’re starving, those kinds of things. And so we’re trying to keep this tight level, which I imagine would be our ancestral experience because we didn’t have regular meals and all that. Brad (34m 53s): And now today, like you described, but the fresh, fresh juice place we’re getting, or we’re prompting these, these spikes and these drops due to not just eating too much sugar, but all kinds of disturbing things that are related to stress management or glucose regulation, I guess. Casey (35m 13s): Exactly. So, so the, so most people associate essentially their year, if their yearly fasting glucose level is going up, that’s bad. That’s usually the only insight we have into glucose. Brad (35m 24s): All right. Once a year, once every six months, one, one snapshot. Casey (35m 28s): Exactly. And so one year you might have a fasting glucose of 99, which is the high high end of quote, unquote normal. And your doctor says, Oh, you’re fine. You’re 99. You’re not a hundred yet for fasting glucose. So you don’t need to worry about blood sugar the next year you come back and you’re 103., All of a sudden you’re quote unquote prediabetic. You know, and it’s this idea that there’s this light switch that goes off of all of a sudden you’re you’re you weren’t, you were fine. And now you’re not fine, but that’s not, that’s not what’s happening on the biologic level. Casey (35m 59s): On the biologic level. You’re marching along the spectrum from optimal metabolic and glucose and glucose function to dysfunction and glycemic variability, which is these up and down swings that you were speaking about are big contributor to longterm dysfunction in this regard. And we don’t have any insight into that because we don’t have any, you know, sensor or tools currently, other than this technology to see it. And so glycemic variability is these ups and downs, swings and glucose. It’s also called glycemic excursions. And it’s actually been shown in the literature that these excursions maybe potentially more harmful than sustained high glucose levels alone. Casey (36m 35s): So it’s thought that when your glucose swings and the hormonal response with insulin and other hormones, that results from that, it can lead to a lot of tissue damaging metabolic byproducts, such as free radicals and oxidative stress. It can damage blood vessels and cause what’s called endothelial dysfunction. It can cause damage to nerves. It can also significantly trigger inflammation and it can activate the stress hormone cascade. So the sympathetic nervous system, the fight or flight, the catecholomines and cortisol. So by going up and down, you’re uniquely contributing to some of this physiology that is problematic both for day to day experience of life, but also for these longterm risks for more chronic disease. Casey (37m 19s): And, you know, I think what, what people might not people, you know, don’t think of this because our system isn’t set up to make us think about this, especially before you’re diagnosed with an illness. But what’s interesting to me kind of going back to the whack-a-mole conversation is that metabolic dysfunction and glycemic variability has its finger in pretty much every pain point that you hear about, you know, in the media. So metabolic dysfunction and glucose irregularity, and the downstream effects of that, like oxidative stress inflammation, endothelial dysfunction, that is the root of the leading cause of infertility polycystic ovarian system. Casey (37m 58s): It’s the root of erectile dysfunction. It’s the root of a lot of acne it’s can be a root cause of anxiety and depression. It can be a root cause of bigger sort of the more overt things like weight gain and obesity and nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, stroke, Alzheimer’s , which is now being caused called type three diabetes, heart disease, heart attacks, and then obviously diabetes. But all of these things, you know, are, are intercalated with metabolic dysfunction. And so when you’re thinking about how each of those, you know, each of those conditions would be treated completely different in our conventional system, but what if we could just get our glucose and our metabolic function just totally dialed in with some personalized data that tells us exactly how to eat and how to live. Casey (38m 45s): And then all of a sudden, you know, these things kind of melt away. And so that’s, that’s really what interests me is helping people on this root cause level and just watch a really functional health full life emerge out of metabolic fitness. Brad (39m 1s): So just a couple things to understand could one deliver a normal fasting glucose at the right time, such as fast as eight hours or 12 hours, but still be baking a lot of trouble with poor glucose variability. Is it possible to go in there and, and deliver a 94 and then be that person at the juice bar going up to 180 and down to 64 and, and feeling burnt out at nighttime and chowing down the pint of ice cream. Brad (39m 32s): Cause you’re, you’re tired and craving sugar and all that. Casey (39m 36s): I think that’s, that’s such a great question. And the answer is yes. And so if you think of a graph that has huge ups and downs swings and amplitude, that’s going way up, way down, way up the average of that, which would be represented by a metric like hemoglobin A1C, which is average three month glucose levels, which is another test that is often done yearly. They would have, let’s say apps. And let’s say you have some with really tiny amplitude of their curve along the same, the same average, those two people on the hemoglobin UNC would look exactly the same, even though the person with the huge swings is going to have, that is an independent risk factor for a number of chronic diseases, separate from just A1C or fasting glucose. Casey (40m 20s): So not knowing that what’s happening in between those, those average tests is, is a real disadvantage. And it’s currently not something that we’re really thinking about in the average person that also that person with intense glycemic variability is going to be causing that oxidative stress, that endothelial dysfunction, that inflammation that may not show up necessarily on a glucose related tests. But those are other biomarkers that are probably going to be more off in that patient than the one who has the sort of, you know, more stable glucose level. Brad (40m 53s): Yeah. Maybe it was just the perfect timing of finishing your hot fudge sundae at 9:00 PM. The previous evening heading to the doctor’s office at 9:00 AM. And you, you you’ve, you’ve hit that 94 when the blood pin goes in. And then you’re off to the Pancake House after your doctor’s appointment to go on living in disease lifestyle, but giving the thumbs up because of that, that snapshot moment Casey (41m 18s): Precisely. Yeah. And you know, what we’ve seen in our users or our customers is that this type of thing happens all the time, where there’s a lot of variability between fasting glucose day to day. We think of it as like, this is our, when we go to the, and our blood taken, we’re like, Oh, we’re a fasting glucose of 94, but that’s not actually the way it works. It changes every single day based on what we’re doing. And, you know, I like to think of that. We sort of have this toolbox of things that we can do to improve our metabolic health. Casey (41m 49s): There’s so many ways to affect metabolic health. You can, we’ve talked about these a little bit on this episode already, but really good sleep improves metabolic health. You know, the right diet and food combinations and food timing affects metabolic health. When you eat has a huge impact on your glucose levels, how you manage stress, your exercise, what type and frequency of exercise you’re doing. So let’s say one day you just do all the things, you know, that are, that are right. You could have a vastly lower fasting glucose. The next day we can see sometimes eight to 10 point swings in fasting glucose. Casey (42m 24s): So, so it’s really interesting how dynamic it is, but we don’t necessarily have a conception of that because of the way our healthcare system is set up and the way our standard testing is done. But once you start to realize how dynamic it is, it becomes very powerful and addictive and really empowering because you think, Oh, well, I’m just going to dig into my toolbox my bed of all toolbox and do everything I can to move that number in the right direction. Like there’s a lot of control and power over it, even in things as simple as how you pair your foods, you know, not eating carbohydrates alone and adding fat and protein to a carbohydrate, if you’re going to eat it to, to blunt the response. Casey (43m 2s): So, and then I think the other thing that’s important to mention is that, you know what we’re realizing actually also over the last five years with the emergence of continuous glucose monitoring in being worn by, by healthy individuals, is that two people like you and me will actually respond completely different to the same carbohydrate in terms of what happens to our glucose levels. So you and I could both eat it, let’s do it. Yeah. But we could both go in and have a cup of salt and straw ice cream. Casey (43m 36s): And I could go to a glucose level of 160 and you could go to a glucose level of 90. And this is work that the understanding of this is work. That’s come out of the Weizmann Institute in Israel. They published a really great paper in 2015, where they slapped continuous glucose monitors on a bunch of healthy individuals and then gave them all standardized meals and saw what happens. And basically what happens is people yeah. Full spectrum of how they respond. And then they found what were the predictive factors that determined how people would respond to a particular set of carbohydrates. Casey (44m 11s): And it came down to things like a microbiome was a huge statistically significant factor they’re anthropomorphic features. So like their body type, how much visceral fat versus subcutaneous fat they had. Things like sleep, exercise genetics. And so, so you can actually, based on, someone’s sort of overall biologic persona predict how they’re going to respond to a certain carbohydrate. But the key thing is that this idea that was sort of propagated with the idea of a glycemic index chart, that one carbohydrate is going to have a specific impact on your glucose level is essentially debunked at this point. Casey (44m 49s): That is, it is very, very individual to the person. And so what’s healthy for you for, you may not be healthy for me. And, and so you really have to know as you’re working towards metabolic optimization, what’s right for your own body, Brad (45m 7s): Right? So it’s been debunked now. So in about 17 to 20 years, it will be widely accepted by conventional society that the glycemic index is a bunch of nonsense, Casey (45m 18s): Right? Exactly. Brad (45m 21s): What kind of particulars might influence our varied response to white rice? Could it be that I have some, an allergic response or maybe a genetic predisposition to react to a certain food that works for you and are all these things in play? When you’re doing health consulting with someone where they, they love their wheat bread sandwich, every lunchtime, and there’s no adverse glucose response. So you, you give them a thumbs up or the next person should run screaming from a bread of any kind. Brad (45m 52s): l Casey (45m 53s): Hmm. Well, it definitely does come down to that where one person may do really well with a particular food and another person might not. And so I would, as a clinician say, this is probably something that is, I’m not going to be super harmful for you to including your diet. Whereas this might be very harmful for someone else. We never, we never want to have big glucose swings. There’s no purpose for a glucose. Brad (46m 20s): Never like what about at the CrossFit session from minute 30 to minute 40? Is that going to be a dumping of glucose in the bloodstream to finish the work? Casey (46m 30s): I should say a dietary induced glucose. I think you’re bringing up a great point though, which is about exercise induced glucose spikes, which is a sort of different physiologic pathway that isn’t necessarily going to have the same biologic effect. So Brad (46m 45s): Not as harmful, you mean, Casey (46m 47s): Well, it’s a totally different process. So basically what you’re referring to is this idea that when you work out, you’re going to, you’re, you’re basically telling your body, okay, I’m lifting a bunch. This is translated in the body. As stress you reduce, you starts to creating catecholamine hormones, which are stress hormones. Those go to the liver and they say, liver, our muscles need sugar to function and to produce ATP for muscle contractions. And so we’re going to dump out all of our stored glucose or some of our stored glucose into the bloodstream, so it can travel the muscles be taken up. Casey (47m 20s): And so what you end up seeing, especially with high intensity interval training workouts or power workouts with lifting is that you get this dumped into the bloodstream and you get a glucose spike. Actually that’s totally exercise induced, even if you’re fasting. And what we know about powerlifting and a high intensity interval training is that these are actually associated with metabolic health, even one high intensity interval training workout can cause improved insulin sensitivity the next day measurable. And so it’s not hurting you in the acute level. Casey (47m 53s): Also the muscle has unique sugar uptake mechanism where it doesn’t necessarily have to be insulin dependent sugar uptake. Like you do have to have it play when you’re taking in dietary glucose. So I sort of separate pathway. So I wouldn’t say that, yes, I should rescind what I said, glucose spikes of all types are not necessarily bad, but a huge swing in glucose from food is not necessarily advantageous. You, you know, with, with taking in glucose, we’re trying to take in an energetic substrate and we’re trying to replete our glycogen stores in the body, which is our stored glucose that later down the road, when we don’t have access to food, we have that stored for easy, quick access. Casey (48m 36s): Glycogen is our quick access energy that is more of our longterm, harder to access storage. So you don’t need, you know, to get up to a glucose level of 180 or 200 to replete those leakage in stores. It’s just, it’s kind of, I would say over overdoing it. So Brad (48m 52s): Sure. Now if we went to do our salt and straw contest and I showed up there after an hour long sprint workout where I totally depleted my glycogen, is that going to moderate a blood glucose spike? Because it’s going straight into the suitcases. As Dr. Cate Shanahan says, the suitcase says the glycogen suitcases are open. They’re going to take the, take the ice cream and store it away. Casey (49m 19s): Well, for people that are trying to gain muscle mass, it is thought that eating some sort of an ideally a complex carbohydrates and not necessarily like a refined sugar carbohydrate, like you’d find in sugar, in ice cream. In the first hour to two hours, right after a workout is the best time to replete that, that liver glycogen and the muscle also stores some glycogen. And so for you to get the maximum sort of build, that’s a good time probably to eat some complex carbohydrates. Casey (49m 50s): But what I think is valuable about wearing a continuous glucose monitor is that some people may just totally overdo it, you know, pound tons of gels and tons of, you know, protein shakes filled with, you know, different refined sugars and then eat some sweet potatoes and this and that to try and get as much as they can in. And I’m not confident that that’s necessary to get the same effect you’d get from a more balanced, slower carb eaten right after a workout. And you may be able to mitigate this huge insulin surge, this big hyperglycemic sort of potentially inflammation response, you know, keeping it a little bit and more balanced may allow you to have the exact same glycogen storage glucose update to the liver and muscle without some of the collateral damage of a big, big insulin surge, you know, an energetic crash afterwards. Casey (50m 41s): And some of that inflammation and oxidative stress that may impair recovery Brad (50m 46s): Back to those afternoon blues that you mentioned a while back where you just feel like, heck, and you, you need to take a nap. You can’t concentrate. Is this always associated with a blood glucose drop to below normal below manageable? Or are there other outside factors like this happens to me, let’s say, you know, now, and then where I just have an afternoon bomb out. Sometimes I link it to extremely difficult workout, you know, eight hours prior or something, but I haven’t tracked my glucose on those occasions, but I’m just curious..Are there other factors that might come into play? Brad (51m 21s): Like just when your, your brain feels fried and you, you need to go down for a break? Casey (51m 29s): Absolutely. Yeah. There’s, there’s so many different pathways that can lead to the same symptom. And I think that, I think that glycaemic dysregulation and metabolic dysfunction is a, is a big one that we have the ability to be aware of. Now, we now have the ability to close the loop on that one. And since it is so prevalent in our culture and our society, I think it’s a really valuable one to track. So if you think about like a condition like depression, for instance. Casey (51m 59s): Depression by definition is a collection of signs and symptoms that if you meet them, you get this label of disease. But from a biochemical level, there’s a number of different things that can contribute to depression. Vitamin D deficiency, hypothyroidism, metabolic dysfunction, people with diabetes have twice the rate of dying of depression. And so, and there’s a thought that insulin resistance in the brain like it is in the body with diabetes has an impact on mood. And so there’s lots of different causes that can lead to a symptom, but having the ability to sort of rule out one of these major ones and the link that I think is very high yield. Casey (52m 37s): But certainly yeah, the, the post meal or, sorry, the afternoon slump or, or fatigue or whatnot could have lots of different causes, but, but this is certainly one that’s in that mix of possibilities. Brad (52m 51s): Just a quick one. I suppose, if you were noticing a blood glucose drop, for whatever reason, maybe too stressful of a morning, traffic altercation, crappy breakfast at the Pancake House, what’s a, what’s a good strategy to try to rebuild your energy for productive afternoon. That’s a good point. Casey (53m 11s): Yeah. So if you’re finding yourself in that sort of reactive dip, which we call reactive hypoglycemia in the very short term, Brad (53m 16s): An excursion, you called it? Cause I’ve taken an excursion to the shithole cause I can’t anymore. And how do I get into a different type of excursion? Casey (53m 31s): Amazing. Yeah. Brad (53m 32s): I’m here for you. We’re keeping it, you know, we’re keeping it fresh. The next interview might not be as fun for Dr. Casey is trying to get up there on the scoreboard. Okay. How do we do a positive excursion? Casey (53m 47s): Yeah. So my honest recommendation would be to kind of wait it out. So you’re going to bounce back. I mean, the body is beautiful and its ability to self regulate. And so the inclination might be to just like pound a bar, you know, something with some sugar, you know, eat some food, try and get it back up there. But then you’re kind of playing this like hormonal, you know, Jack in the box, like, you know, insulin went up your glucose plummeted, so you eat some sugar. So insulin went up again and you might end up just kind of getting this like bouncing around. Casey (54m 19s): So Brad (54m 20s): You’ve just described the, the weight loss diet book industry of the past 50 years. That’s all. That’s what all the books, 80% of the books out there are trying to do? What, what was the term you just used the Jack in the box. We have Jack in a box. We have whack-a-mole I’m getting a good podcast title. Now, if you keep him third one, then we’re Casey (54m 44s): Ooh, Ooh. I will. I will think of I’m going to dig deep, but yeah, I mean, I think that so much of the past 20 years of dietary advice has been so misguided in the sense that it has not factored in the hormonal basis of, of metabolism and of, of weight. And it’s all been about, you know, a calorie’s a calorie calories in calories out, you know, if you’re in a calorie deficit, you’ll, you’ll lose weight. But what we know is that two people can eat the exact same number of calories per day, same macros, exact same food. Casey (55m 18s): And if they eat them at different times, they will have a totally different metabolic outcomes. So there was an interesting study that showed that people who ate the exact same food between 8:00 AM and 2:00 PM versus 8:00 AM and 8:00 PM. So just spacing the calories out more versus less had totally different insulin sensitivity and a 24 hour glucose and insulin levels. So the people in the shorter feeding window 8:00 AM to 2:00 PM had much better metabolic parameters. And when you think about things on the hormonal level, it makes a lot of sense. Casey (55m 49s): Every time you take carbohydrates in you’re going to have an insulin surge. And as you have an insulin surge, what insulin does is it’s the, the anabolic hormone in the body. It tells your body, we just got energy and we need to store it. And so we’re going to either store it in the liver as glycogen. And if there’s extra, which in our culture, there’s always extra. Cause we’re eating to at least 10 times more sugar than we should be. We’re going to store that extra as fat. So insulin actually tells the body to store excess glucose as fat in our adipose cells. Casey (56m 21s): And what it also does is it tells the don’t burn fat. We don’t need to burn fat. We just got tons of energy. So if you’re spacing out your food and eating little carbs all the time throughout the day, you’re constantly getting these insulin spikes and you’re literally telling your body it very clear language do not burn fat. You don’t need to versus if you eat your calories in a much more condensed period, yes, you’re going to get that glucose surge, but you’re only going to get it for a very short period of time. It’s going to come up, it’s going to come down. And then for all those other hours during the day, when you’re not eating your insulin low, you’re going to burn through your stored glucose. Casey (56m 58s): And your body’s going to say, Oh, there’s no insulin and no foods coming in. We better start burning fat. And so this is really just this I think is such a powerful aspect to this. So this continuous glucose monitoring technology, because if I can look at my phone and look at my glucose curve and my app and say, my glucose is basically been low and steady throughout the entire day, I can safely assume my insulin has also been fairly low and stable throughout the day. And that I am probably getting into fat mode and our, and I can confirm that because I checked my ketones as well. Casey (57m 30s): And I know that the days that I don’t have my glucose spikes and I keep my glucose low and stable by doing the things I know for me personally, keep my glucose low. I get into ketosis. That’s what happens. It’s not a mystery. And so all of a sudden you’ve just totally pulled the rug out under from this idea that, you know, weight loss is impossible. It’s, it’s really about managing your hormones and letting your body giving your body the language and the signals to say, you can burn fat now. Casey (57m 60s): So unfortunately in our culture, because we eat all the time, we snack all the time. We’ve been told that we need to snack to rev our metabolism. You know, we never get into this low insulin state. And so now we have 2 billion people in the world who were overweight or obese. We have 74% of Americans who are overweight or obese. We have 128, a million million Americans with prediabetes and diabetes. And you know, I think it’s not a mystery why we’ve gotten here. So, Brad (58m 27s): Wow. I mean, that’s the heaviest insight around that we’ve heard, you know, in decades really that this meal timing, thankfully, it’s a centerpiece of our new book that Mark Sisson and I are putting out called Two Meals a Day, but really to put this all together and to realize that just the timing of what you eat. And you said the two groups in the study, and I know there’s been many studies, Jason Fung mentioned numerous ones where they ate the same stuff, but one ate it from 8:00 AM to 2:00 PM and the other one on their, on their snacking mode and had a third of a power bar here and a third of the power bar there, sorry, this show is not sponsored by PowerBar the ultimate snacking tool to keep your insulin and glucose high. Brad (59m 8s): But that’s pretty huge because I don’t know. I talked to real people all the time. I’m sure you do too Casey, that aren’t highly motivated and living and breathing this stuff. And people are looking to enjoy their liv There’s habit patterns and cultural forces. And so if we could at least urge people to get a, get a unit on their, on their arm, because that’ll, you know, be hugely impactful. But if you can just kind of, you know, strategize to have a feast or famine mode in your life, you’re going to have an explosion in health predictably. Casey (59m 43s): Absolutely. I think that that is totally true. And, and one thing I really like about where the research is going these days and are just like increasing understanding of the roots of metabolic dysfunction is that this is not necessarily just about eating low carb. That is not necessarily the answer to getting stable glucose levels, because what we know is that a carb affects one person differently than it’s going to affect another person. Casey (1h 0m 14s): So it’s about creating this entire context for your body to process carbohydrates in a healthy and efficient way. And so that might be optimizing, you know, micronutrient status, getting a lot of sleep, exercising, managing stress, well, timing your meals properly pairing foods properly, but it doesn’t necessarily mean deprivation of any one thing. It means being really thoughtful about the metabolic context through which you’re processing food. It means optimizing the microbiome, optimizing digestion, these things all are related. Casey (1h 0m 47s): So one thing I’m, I’m just sort of heartened by is that it’s not necessarily about restriction. It’s about thoughtful management of a whole system that is extremely complex, Brad (1h 0m 59s): Right. And that’s not just your opinion because you’re gathering the data from real humans. And I know we have to wrap up, but I’m, I’m teeing you up for an entire repeat show and we have all these notes to talk about because of your strategies and your personal dietary habits and the, and the data that you’ve gathered. But, you know, you, you talked, you gave me a few soundbites that, you know, this Keto or a low carb diet, that’s poorly formulated and poorly contemplated where you’re snacking on fat bombs all day long, you’re still inhibiting fat burning and you’re inviting adverse consequences such as failure to drop excess body fat, even though you’re following the rules that are written in the bestselling books, including ones of my own that are being misinterpreted and taking out of context. Brad (1h 1m 45s): So I love the, the practical insights there and also the, the, the variability between individuals. Casey (1h 1m 55s): Yeah, it’d be fun to talk more about all that, that stuff. And, you know, I think I certainly am very, I am, I am a plant based metabolic health person. So, you know, I’m vegan and I eat probably a hundred to 150 carbs a day grams of carbs a day or more, and try and get 50 to 75 grams of fiber a day. And that would, a lot of Ket individuals would, would say, Oh my God is crazy. Like what, what are you doing? This is not the way to do it. And, but I think, I think there are multiple different ways to get to, to metabolic health and, you know, just going with low glucose input, you know, clearly not taking in a lot of glucose is going to cause you to not have a good, big glucose response in the blood. Casey (1h 2m 40s): That is one way to not elevate blood glucose levels, but there are other ways to do that as well. Like building an entire system of, you know, cells, digestion, microbiome, hormones, mitochondrial, co-factors that all processed carbohydrates really efficiently and don’t give you a big glucose spike so that you can eat, you know, lots of carbohydrates and not necessarily see it in your bloodstream. And so, you know, something that I think that the low card movement is doing a really great job of is spreading awareness that we are dealing with just absolute carbohydrate toxicity. Casey (1h 3m 17s): In our culture, we are eating 150 pounds of refined sugar on average per person per year. Now when a hundred years ago, we were eating like two pounds of refined sugar per year, if any, you know, it’s it’s orders of magnitude and the carbohydrate toxicity, the substrate toxicity that we’re dealing with is our poor little bodies and our mitochondria, that process glucose. They have absolutely no idea what to do. And we’re just seeing bodies break, which is why we’re seeing astronomical rates of chronic lifestyle related diseases that are just absolutely being interrupting the human capital and the economic capital of our country. Casey (1h 3m 55s): And so that is, I am so happy that we are talking about carbohydrates and understanding that we need to move away from refined carbohydrates, but, but that’s a very different, I think conversation then looking at like a whole foods plant based diet that has quite a, quite a bit of carbohydrates filled with micronutrients and mitochondrial cofactors and whatnot that can support really efficient, both cellular biology, but also a microbiome that’s diversified to really process carbohydrates well. So the right bacteroides and Firmicutes ratios and all of those things that we know are associated with metabolic health. Casey (1h 4m 30s): So, you know, so I, I think there’s, there’s just, it’s a really interesting time for these conversations and I, I’m certainly happy. We’re spreading awareness about the importance of being more thoughtful about carbohydrates. Brad (1h 4m 45s): Dr. Casey Means you killed it. It was fascinating. And we’re totally teed up for show number two, with these varied approaches to healthy eating and metabolic health. And this I’m excited because I feel like when we talk personally about this in Portland, we got a little further down the road. We’re going to bring that to the listener next time, but it kind of helps to reconcile some of the controversy dispute argumenting back and forth among health experts. Brad (1h 5m 16s): And now we kind of try to pursue some common ground and realize that if we get the bad behaviors out of the way, and we only touched on this briefly, but you know, when you’re getting in those traffic altercations and stressful workplace environment, you’re spiking your glucose. Just like if you go down the street and get a Hostess Pie. So we’re going to do some big picture reconciling and boy, what a, what a pleasure it was to have you on the show and give people a little tidbit about this new technology. Where can we learn more about you and the level’s operation and all that? Casey (1h 5m 51s): Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on Brad and people can find out more by going to www dot level’s health.com. And I would highly recommend doing levels of health.com/blog, where I, and many other metabolic health clinicians have written a lot of content digging into this a lot more. So it’s a great, a great educational resource. And if you do want to get access to the technology, which right now continuous glucose monitoring technology is only FDA approved for type one and type two diabetics. Casey (1h 6m 24s): And we have set up a telemedicine network of physicians who will evaluate Level’s customers through a telemedicine consultation to get access to people who are non-diabetic, who are health seeking to use this technology for health optimization. And we set you up with that consultation chip sensors, and then you get access to the levels software, and that’s, you can sign up for our wait list for thatUlevelshealth.com. Casey (1h 6m 54s): You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Unlock Levels, and you can find me on Instagram and lots of plant based metabolic health tips at Dr. Casey’s kitchen. So that’s sort of find us Brad (1h 7m 7s): Awesome. Thank you, Dr. Casey means thank you, listeners. Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to thanks for doing it.


Get ready for a powerhouse show with New York Times bestselling author and renowned behavioral and mindset expert John Assaraf! This guy brings his A-game for an hour of power that has the potential to change your life–if you are ready to receive the message that is. “I’m not in the convincing game,” John explains, but he is an internationally recognized brain expert, educator, and 1-on-1 peak performance coach.

In this highly energized and motivating show, John covers the content of his new book Innercise: The New Science to Unlock Your Brain’s Hidden Power. You may have seen John on other big time shows like Larry King Live, The Ellen DeGeneres Show, Tim Bilyeu, and Anderson Cooper 360, and you are in for a real treat with this episode.

John discusses all aspects of performing at your peak in all areas of life (not just narrow objectives like making money), and how to discard bad habits quickly with “tiny actions” that are not intimidating. This way, you can always, “Do a little anyway, even if you don’t feel like it,” according to John. By doing so, you actually rewire your neural circuits so that your desired behaviors become easy, breezy habits. You become not just a person who is good at setting goals (ahem, raise your hand if you’re in that group) but someone who is good at taking focused action over and over in pursuit of those goals.

John comes to you with authenticity and experience, for he has experienced numerous “failures” in life – divorce, poor health habits, and losing and gaining fortunes in business. You will learn about your “Frankenstein brain” and your “Einstein brain” and how to harmoniously integrate the two.  John offers some memorable parenting insights about leading by example but not meddling or trying to orchestrate your kid’s path. You’ll learn just a couple “Innercise Habits” provided in the book that can change your life: taking six deep breaths to “calm the circuits.” When you are in a relaxed, wise-minded state, you can then engage “AIA”: Awareness, Intention and Action. If you saw the blockbuster movie, The Secret, you’ll recall John’s astonishing real life vision board story that made it all the way to the big screen. Listen to the end of the show and John will recount the most unlikely story of manifestation come to life that you will ever hear.

Enjoy this special conversation with John, and be sure to check out his website and his book, Innercise.


Brad gives a tip right off from his guest: When you are under stress and having a difficult time, take six slow deep diaphragmatic breaths. [03:43]

It might be better to broaden your fitness ambitions rather than focus on one thing. [06:39]

John talks about how he studies himself around fears, self-image, limiting beliefs, and behavior. [08:16]

To have the chance of becoming wealthy, you have to take risks.  [10:33]

When trying to make changes in our life and don’t like the result, look to see what caused that result. Don’t see it as a failure. [15:40]

John separates the two parts of the brain into the Frankenstein brain and the Einstein brain. [16:53]

In the book, Innercise, John gives you the actual mental and emotional techniques to integrate those parts of your brain.  Here he gives an example how. [20:21]

By doing the suggested breathing “Innercise,” you can literally change the cellular makeup in your body. [24:29]

In order to program the neural pattern in our brain, it will take from 100 to 365 days for it to become default mode. You teach yourself to override your natural propensity to want to stay in your comfort zone. [26:35]

We were taught the process to set goals but we weren’t taught a process to actually make those goals achievable for us. [29:58]

There is much distractibility in our environment so we need to deliberately and consciously evolve ourselves so that these distractions don’t control us. [30:60]

John used to be 234 pounds and 33% body fat.  How did he evolve his way to better fitness? [34:53]

If you can’t afford a personal trainer, there are many ways to set up accountability. [41:53]

Do we have to have a dire warning from a doctor before we turn things around? [43:55]

How does a person leverage all the aspects they want to achieve? [47:47]

The problem is making the commitment to the outcome you want. How can you get out the message? [51:09]

How does John work with clients? [57:57]

Do Visions Boards play an important role in goal setting? [01:00:03]



  • “Nothing will change until you change.”
  • “Make a commitment to the outcome you want, then follow the ‘how’ that already exists.”
  • “You have to ask yourself: where am I heading, how fast am I going there, and is the destination acceptable to me? If the answer is yes, good – pick up speed, and go faster. But if the answer is no way!, stop. And ask yourself: what has to happen, in order for me to turn around, get on a different train, and go in a different direction? What has to happen in my mindset, emotional management, and skill set?”
  • “I like to observe people who have achieved what I want to achieve, and then I ask: how did they do that? What did they think, what did they read, how did they manage their emotions, what did they do, how did they plan and strategize? so I can mimic and mirror their results.”


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Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (2m 2s): Hey listeners, get ready for a power house show from John Assaraf. This show has the potential to change your life. I like people with their, a game on fire and this guy brought it for an hour of power. Absolutely fantastic peak performance, motivation brain training. He is a two time New York times bestselling author and his new book is called Innercise, the new science to unlock your brain’s hidden power already hit number one on Amazon. Brad (2m 38s): This guy is a leader in the business world and in the peak performance scene, he’s been on Larry King, Ellen Degeneres, Anderson Cooper, all kinds of stuff. And what a pleasure to welcome him to the Get Over Yourself podcast. I got to say he was actually kind of a cold pitch. His PR firms said, Hey, do you want to interview this guy? And I’m like, sure. Why not? Okay. And, Oh my goodness. My hand was writing furiously. My head was nodding and you are going to get some wonderful insights centered upon the content of his book, but it’s a great story. Brad (3m 11s): John has been through an assortment of successes and failures. He’s had great business success and wealth, and then he’s lost all that wealth and gained it back. And now he’s really focusing on the coaching aspect and helping other people. So you can go visit his website and get involved. Get the book. I think this show set the record for the most notes ever taken. I called him Tony Robbins without the hype and the excess cause it was highly motivating and illuminating things about how we build good habits and how we get stuck in bad habits. Brad (3m 43s): John will tell you about the Frankenstein brain and the Einstein brain and how to smoothly integrate those, to get some emotional control and some good rational thinking and skills implemented. I’m going to give you just a little teaser and then he’s going to take it away. But he has these things in the book called Innercise habits. He said he has about 20 of them. And just a couple here that he talked about. The first one was when you’re under stress or you’re facing difficult times, take six and calm the circuitry. Brad (4m 13s): So if you take six, slow, deep diaphragmatic breaths, you will instantly change your brain chemistry and your body chemistry to deactivate the sympathetic nervous system, which is when you get frazzled and can’t make good decisions and can’t stick to your goals and plans and instead get distracted and pulled away. And then the second of the habits is to engage. Now that you’ve taken your six calm breaths, right? A I A: awareness, intention, and taking action. Brad (4m 44s): And this guy is big on taking action. He tells you an amazing story to end the show. So you gotta listen to the end, talking about his appearance on the movie, The Secret and his experience with the famous law of attraction. You know, when you cut out a fancy car or a beautiful home from the magazine and paste it on your vision board and then manifest those things and, Oh boy, this story will top any that you’ve heard along these lines. So please enjoy this wonderful, inspiring, motivating conversation from John Assaraf author of Innercise. Brad (5m 23s): Hey John, John (5m 24s): Give me just one second. Brad (5m 29s): Great. I’m sorry. I’m late. I, I was like stepping outside and there shows up my neighbor who was gone for three months. So I, I, I had to chat a little bit and I said, I gotta go do a podcast. She said, what’s a podcast. So, you know, it’s pretty big time, but not, not as, not as big as we might think, right? If no one doesn’t even know what it is, listen to it. John (5m 51s): There’s so many, this do know what it is. Brad (5m 53s): It’s not a big deal. Yeah, it’s cool. Hey, nice, nice choice of clothes today, John (5m 58s): There were matching very sharp and I just finished a one week vegan keto diet. Brad (6m 4s): So one week, wow. What was that all about? John (6m 9s): Every quarter. I do a little intermittent fasting and little keto action, so, Brad (6m 16s): Oh, just every quarter. And then you go back to sort of a baseline John (6m 21s): Just baselines. I, you know, my complex carbs and I’ve been vegan for about eight years. So eat pretty clean to begin with. So not a lot of simple sugars anyway. So complex carbs, good fats for my muscle building and workouts. Brad (6m 39s): Yeah. You’re working out hard, huh? John (6m 42s): Well, I don’t know about hard, but I work out consistently. Brad (6m 45s): Yeah. What kind of stuff? John (6m 49s): Biking. A little running, hiking, StairMaster, strength, training, you know, weights, TRX a little bit of everything. Brad (7m 0s): Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Instead of I’m writing an article right now about how it might be better to, you know, broaden your, your fitness ambitions rather than focus on one thing like the endurance scene or even the, You know, people that are huge on Spinning or CrossFit. It’s so easy to get tired and burnt out because you’re trying to get really super good at something and push the edge, you know? Yeah. John (7m 25s): Do you know what, I don’t know how old you are, Brad (7m 27s): 56 man John (7m 27s): but I am in the same zone. I’ll be 69 in a couple months for me. It’s how do I, how do I keep everything working optimally, you know, so that I can scan my seventies and eighties and nineties. So that’s my focus for now, but also I do, I make sure that I don’t have so much wear and tear that I’m injuring. I’ve had enough injuries. I’m sure you have as well. John (7m 58s): So now it’s a more of sustained sustenance, right? Brad (7m 58s): Yeah. I mean, there’s no bigger incentive to do the little drills and the annoying little mini band things. Then I know this is preventing injuries. So I will hit those things hard until I’m screaming in pain. Cause if I can get my glutes goin’ .You know, I’m looking good. I feel like we’re in a good groove going here. I should have recorded all that. But I’ll ask you about your fitness thing again. So I say Assaraf, John SRF, we are on it, man. And we’re already on fire. Brad (8m 29s): So I had to push record cause we’ve been talking about your interesting fitness regimen, but we’re here to get into the power of the brain and Innercise so why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us what you’ve been up to and about this wonderful new book. John (8m 48s): Sure. You know, what I’ve been up to is just trying to understand more about our miraculous trillion dollar brain as I like to think of it and just what we’re learning, discovering about the brain around fears and self image and limiting beliefs and behavior. And you know why we do the things we do? Why is it so hard to change? Why don’t we do the things we know we should do and want to do? So I’m just fascinated with understanding myself better, of course, first, and then now, whatever it is I discover, you know, and apply. John (9m 24s): Then I want to teach it to be able to follow my work and my audience and my sons and my wife and my family all in, in pursuit of just, you know, being happy and healthy in every area of life. So not just, you know, financially, which is what a lot of people focused on. I place a lot of value on my spiritual, emotional, mental, and physical health and wellbeing above all else. And so how do I do more of that so that I can enjoy this journey called life even more? Brad (9m 57s): Well, I like how you referenced that you tested out on yourself or you try to go for self improvement and then share the message. Cause there is some fallout, I think from the age of social media and the gurus and the people presenting this manufactured lifestyle up there look no further than celebrities who it seems like they have it all and they’re flying around on their private jets. And then, you know, they, they crashed their car into the telephone pole. They can’t even get straight with, you know, normal everyday life. So that’s probably a good entry point to share a message with other people’s what’s worked for you. John (10m 33s): Yeah. And you know, it’s interesting, as you know, as you say that I’m fascinated with why does that happen? Right? And so for example, you know, I’ve, I’ve been divorced twice and then now happily married with my wife for 21 years. I have made a lot of money, enough lost a lot of, I have been 238 pounds and I’m a borderline diabetic, borderline hypertensive. And you know, I had 33% body fat and now I’m at 197 pounds for the last 11 years and 14% body fat and healthy. John (11m 12s): So the reason I shared this with you is I’m no different than anybody else. My, the difference for me is like, wow, you know, did I love myself? Let’s say, get out of shape. When I know that it’s healthy. Why did I lose millions of dollars? You know, when I knew, you know, management skills for money and protecting skills, you know? So I’ve been fascinated with the game of life and, and learning and growing and adapting and becoming more so that I could have more, be more, do more, give more, et cetera. John (11m 47s): So the Guinea pig art is I’m curious in understanding me better. And it consistently comes back to what’s happening between my two ears. It gives just like comes back to me. So as much as I can say, it’s him, it’s her, it’s this it’s that? No, it’s me. Brad (12m 8s): Yeah. I was talking to a dating expert and he was mentioning how, you know, the last 38 dates, nothing really happened. They didn’t go anywhere. And what was the common denominator that all those women had is that they dated the same guy you in the mirror? Pretty funny. Yeah. John (12m 25s): He was at the scene of all the crimes. Brad (12m 25s): Oh mercy. Just on that money question, I’m wondering, because you’ve heard this so many times, you know, gain and lost a fortune. Is that possibly a part of the picture where you have to be willing to take these risks and lose your shirt so that you can get a nicer shirts? John (12m 48s): Well, I think you have to be willing for that to happen in order for you to, you know, to have the chance at becoming wealthy. Sometimes you have to risk stuff. Now what we don’t learn, or maybe let me rephrase. What I didn’t learn is a lot of what I teach now in, in the arena of money to all my students is there’s a skill set for earning. There’s a skill set for managing there’s a skillset for investing. John (13m 21s): There’s a skillset for protecting, and there’s a skillset for using debt as leverage or getting out of debt faster. Now, I always had a really great skillset for earning, but I didn’t learn some of the management investing in protecting skills until I did. And the reason I did is because I made a lot of money at a very, very young age, lost a lot of money at a very, very young age. John (13m 51s): And then my coaches, mentors and teachers said, okay, here were some of the errors in your thinking and your behaviors adjust those and everything will be fine. And then I made all the money back and I’ve been able to maintain it. And so it was a function of me leveling up my awareness and my skills. There was nothing in the marketplace that caused me to do this right. And so I just didn’t have the awareness of the knowledge. So first and foremost, I took responsibility, which means I changed my ability to respond to differently. John (14m 28s): And, and then, you know, I got really good at the five different pillars of financial success instead of one. Brad (14m 38s): So you mentioned the coaches, mentors.Wow. How actively did you go out and seek guidance outside of yourself? John (14m 46s): Very, I haven’t invested over a million dollars in my own coaching and consulting that I have paid others over the last 25 years. Brad (14m 56s): Wow! It’s like LeBron James man. He, he supposedly spends a million dollars on his body care and all that every year. John (15m 4s): Yeah, and that’s really what got me into the, you know, the neuroscience and neuropsychology field and really understanding what is actually happening in my brain or as a result of what’s happening in my brain. And that’s why, you know, when I wrote my newest book, Innercise how to unlock your brains in power. We already have all the tools, right? We have that trillion dollar brain, but we weren’t given the user’s manual for it. And so I just started to discover certain obstacles that hold people back, certain behaviors that hold people back and, and why that happens. John (15m 40s): And so that really became my fascination. I’ve been very, very curious my whole life. And so I’ve been curious with not just focusing on results, but results are effects, all results that we experience our effects. And so I’ve been wondering what are the causes of the effects? So if we have a result that we love, it would be great to know, well, what caused, you know, the behavior or the not taking action that yielded the result. John (16m 12s): And if we also by default have a result that we don’t like or want, well, something caused that. Well, why not dive a little bit deeper, right? To understand what may be happening within me so that I can adjust. Brad (16m 30s): Well, I guess if we’re blaming things outside of ourselves, for all our misfortunes and shortcomings, that could be a starting point. For example, that is the cause right there that you’re going around blaming instead of taking responsibility, did you make that up, John, that respond what was responsibility? Again, John (16m 53s): Bond my ability to respond instead of react, what I left talking about. And I started to, to create this visual for people in my book. Innercise, and that is, there’s a part of our brain. That’s that Frankenstein part of the brain that I call. And there’s another part of the brain. That’s the Einstein part of the brain and our Frankenstein brain reacts. Our Frankenstein brain operates out of a state of fear, uncertainty, doubts, stress, anxiety. John (17m 24s): Our Frankenstein brain is focused on, you know, what if, what if I fail? You know, what if I disappointed myself, what if I’m embarrassed, ashamed, ridiculed, or judged, and Frankenstein basically puts the brakes on our behavior. Whereas Einstein, which is part of our, what I call is the left prefrontal cortex that CEO, the executive director of our brain, you know, Einstein says, well, what can I do about this? What did do, right? What did I do? Right? What knowledge, what skills, what tool, what resource can I use to solve this? John (17m 56s): You know, what did I learn? What did I discover? How do I behave differently? How do I elicit, you know, the motivation that I need to achieve, the goal that I want. So while Einstein’s focusing on solutions and how I can and why I will. Frankenstein’s focusing on blame, shame, guilt, justification, and stress and anxiety. And the truth is we have both of those capabilities within us and the razor’s edge. The difference that makes the difference between those who succeed and those who don’t succeed as much is mindset. John (18m 34s): Mindset is what separates the best from the rest. So the more I can master my own mindset and my emotional resiliency, the more I can overcome the things that are in my way. And the more that I can actually be inspired into action to achieve my goals and dreams. And, and that’s really how you win the game. Brad (18m 59s): So the Frankenstein sounds like the emotional reactivity and the lack of emotional control. And I’m thinking of some insights that I got from Mark Manson, who the bestselling offer of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck and his new book, Everything is Fucked: The book About Hope. And he was saying that you need to get buy in from your emotional brain as you’re pondering your courses of action with your rational brain. And it was an interesting take on that. I wonder how you feel about that because we are going to have those emotions and those insecurities, we want a bigger boat than our neighbor, but maybe we shouldn’t be spending it right now. Brad (19m 38s): We should be paying off our credit cards. So these things are still going to be swirling around our brain, regardless of how much work we do ourselves. Right? And so you’re going to have to make friends. It seems like Frankenstein and Einstein are gonna have to make friends at some level. John (19m 50s): You got it. You can use Frankenstein as fuel for your success. Now, what mark is discussing is the battle between the limbic part of the brain and the prefrontal cortex of the brain and the emotional response center of our brain. That’s part of our, our second to develop part of our brain. So we had no that reptilian part, the instinctual part of our brain, that’s there for survival safety, avoidance of pain, avoidance of discomfort, you know, the emotional, the middle part of our brain, that limbic and emotional system that is triggered automatically based on the subconscious patterns and associations that we have at the subconscious level. John (20m 30s): And then there’s this, you know, Einstein, executive functioning part when I says, yeah, but you can achieve this and you want this and you want that. And there is this constant battle. And the reason I actually created, as I mentioned, Innercise is to give you the actual mental and emotional techniques to integrate all those parts of your brain. So when that Frankenstein brain is active and that sympathetic nervous system, you know, is it is causing you to react at the highest level of your training for that particular thing. John (21m 5s): How do you de activate the reactive part of your brain and how do you engage the part of your brain that can respond in a much better fashion and a much better, more empowered way? And you know, Innercise number one is called take six, calm the circuits. So the first thing you’ve got to do is take six deep breaths in, through your nose, as slowly as you can, and then breathe out through your mouth six times, like you’re breathing out through a straw and those six breaths, if there takes you six, seven, eight seconds just to breathe in gently, slowly, slowly, slowly, and then as you exhale, even slower, focusing on a straw in your mouth, you’re breathing out that air flow that deactivates the sympathetic nervous system. John (21m 58s): Now in this deactivated, calm state, where you can respond, you can do what I call Innercise number two. Innercise number two is called AIA, A I A. What is AIA? stands for awareness, intention, action. So awareness awareness of what, in a calm, relaxed state, I can become aware of my thoughts, emotions, feelings, sensations, and let’s just say the behaviors that I’ve taken or not taken for the last hour. John (22m 30s): In an aware state, without judging myself, blaming shaming, feeling guilty or justifying the behavior or the thoughts or the emotions. Now I can ask myself, I can use my higher cortical function, my Einstein brain. I could say what’s my intention for the next hour. My intentions to be focused, happy, aware in action towards my goals and dreams. And once I have that intention, now I can say, what’s one small, tiny little action I can take towards that? John (23m 9s): So I could smile. I could get myself into a state of empowerment. I could focus on that goal that I want to achieve. I want to get in shape, do one. If I want to go and say, you know, just lift your knees up five times to your elbows, do something small that empowers you and moves you towards that goal, vision or dream that you have. Now, what I’m doing is now I’m being deliberate. Now I’m training my brain to be calm so I can respond. John (23m 39s): And now I can prime all of the motivational circuits and behavioral circuits in my brain to move me in the direction of where I want to be. Instead of moving away from what I want. Now, those two simple Innercises are one of about 20 that I, that I have as my core ones. But when I’m in control and I’m being deliberate, when I’m reinforcing constructive positive patterns, then by default, I am actually rewiring and restrengthening key neurocircuits in my brain that helps me develop the habits that become part of my automatic self or default mode network. John (24m 21s): And the more I can create construct of positive, empowering habits, those habits then create me, Brad (24m 29s): Oh, mercy people. Did you listen to that? Are you going to rewind the tape a little bit? I mean, if you just give to an end, the show, we are rocking and rolling, but 20 I’m going to, you know, Oh my gosh. I mean, and I think we need to emphasize just how powerful that, that breathing exercise you give. I mean, you are literally changing the cellular makeup in your body with breathing. You’re, you’re deactivating the sympathetic state with a few deep breaths. And I think we pay lip service to it too much. Brad (25m 0s): Now breathing’s getting popular. Wim. Hof is out there doing his amazing feats of endurance and teaching other people to do so. So I love that starting point of just take those deep breaths and then transfer over to number two, AIA that’s big man. And I was, I was wondering, John, why not a big gigantic action, cause you said a small, tiny action.? John (25m 20s): So whenever we’re looking at creating a new habit, I like to teach all of my students and clients to reduce it to the ridiculously small. So all of the neuroscience and neuro psychology research shows that when you start off with a very small, simple step, and you release that dopamine in your brain for taking action, your brain says, Oh, you did something in the direction of your goals and dreams that affects your self esteem positively. John (26m 3s): It affects your confidence positively. It builds a neural pattern of you being an action taker and a goal achieving person for some goal setting person. So when we take small little action steps, we’re actually firing the neurons in our brain that start to get wired around that behavior. And when we focus on the habits first, instead of the intensity or duration, we can always add an intensity of duration next. John (26m 35s): So what’s more important the habit or the intensity or duration. So I prefer my clients to take one little action, step a day for 100 days, then 60 minutes once a week. Why? Because if I can get you to do something a little bit every day for 100 days, we know that it takes between 66 days and 365 days to create a neural pattern that our brain, that becomes part of the default mode network or the automatic self. So if I can get you to do something for a hundred days, I can then increase intensity and duration and all that other stuff afterwards. John (27m 13s): Now, a lot of times the bigger the action is the more resistance we feel. Why? Our brains third greatest hierarchy of how it operates is conservation of energy, not expenditure of energy. It’s conservation of energy. So if our brain says, Oh my God, that’s going to take a lot of energy. You’re going to meet resistance. And we don’t like change. The only human that likes change is a wet baby. And so why not reduce the resistance to the ridiculous, the small. John (27m 43s): So you have a win. And once you have a, when you want another one, and once you have another one, you have another one. And so I tell all of my clients, whenever you hear that voice in your head, I’m tired. I don’t feel like it. I want you to override that. So it’s not, I know you don’t feel like it, but just do a little bit anymore. I know you don’t want to, but do a little bit anyway. I know, you know, it’s not the right time, but I’ll just do something instead of nothing. So you start to teach yourself to override your natural propensity to want to stay in your comfort zone. John (28m 16s): And when you teach yourself to override your natural entity to overcome your comfort zone, then you actually develop a habit of overcoming your comfort zones, right? So Brad (28m 26s): What happens to your comfort zone now? It gets bigger and bigger. Yeah, John (28m 29s): You got it. And so when we talk about, you know, our comfort zones, expanding, you know, whenever we’re, whenever that Einstein brain gets kicked into gear, I’m sorry, the Frankenstein brain gets kicked into gear. Usually that’s a state of stress that it puts us in. And the definition of stress is when demand exceeds capacity, when demand exceeds capacity, my Frankenstein brain gets activated. So why not expand my mental capacity, emotional capacity, physical capacity, spiritual capacity, financial capacity by taking small little action steps that expand my capacity and my abilities. John (29m 7s): So instead of saying, I’m gonna exercise, you know, everyday for an hour. Exercise every day for three minutes, for five minutes, for seven minutes, whatever, whatever it is that you can not say no to. Brad (29m 20s): Wow. And it seems to be such a common pattern for people to put these big ambitions up there and then fail, and then tell a story or blame. I wonder if the setting of an outsized goal is a self-defeating prophecy or something. John (29m 35s): Well, there’s a part of our brain, the Einstein brain that actually sets the goal, but that is not the part of the brain that is responsible for the behaviors to fulfill that goal. Brad (29m 48s): Oh, mercy, that sounds like a crappy company where the managers telling people how to run the assembly line, but they don’t even visit it. John (29m 58s): That’s right. So there isn’t any problem with setting goals and everybody has goals and visions and a dream, but your habits that are part of the striatum part of the brain, that’s responsible for the habitual way of thinking, feeling and behaving. If you don’t integrate those two pieces, then you’re going to have a brain in chaos. What you have to create is coherence and harmony instead of chaos. A brain and chaos is a brain in stress, right? And stress deactivates the motivational centers and the behavioral centers of the brain. John (30m 30s): And so of course it doesn’t work. We were not taught the proper process in order to achieve goals. We were taught the process to set goals and to use imagination, but we weren’t taught a process to actually make those goals achievable for us. And that’s all based in neuroscience. And again, that’s the passion and the fun that I have is understanding why do so few people actually achieve their goals? And we know the answers to that. Brad (30m 60s): Now I’m also looking at our environment and the, you know, influx of hyper-connectivity in our lifetimes, John, we can reference half our life where there was absolutely nothing. And now the most recent 20, 30 years of craziness that we couldn’t even imagine back in the day when we were sitting around reading a book in the afternoon, instead of getting hit with dings and buzzes. So it seems to me, you know, my main focus is creating content, writing books, producing a podcast, things like that, but there’s so much distractibility and potential for entertainment and diversion. Brad (31m 40s): It seems like the, the environment’s really tough right now to, to lock into that powerful mindset. John (31m 45s): Yeah. I mean the, the environment is a lot more stimuli. You know, there’s a, there’s a lot more distractions. There’s a lot more people that are vying for our attention, whether it’s, you know, social media ads texting us, you know, praising media on television, polarization, addictive games that we’re playing on our apps that are all based in neuroscience. John (32m 15s): And so all the more reason for every one of us to deliberately and consciously evolve ourselves so that these distractions don’t control us, we control the distractions. So let’s go back to processes. Do you have a process? Do you have a habit of allowing distractions to run your life? Or do you have a process and a habit for not allowing that to happen? John (32m 50s): Right. And so deliberate conscious evolution is really where the game is at right now. And we have to have a higher degree of self discipline and self regulation than we have ever had in the history of our species. And we also have more knowledge and many more tools to help us do that. So that means if the person who is going to be more self-disciplined, they’re going to be able to master their domain. John (33m 21s): And you probably know the same from Jim Rohn many years ago, it says in life, you’re either going to pay the price of discipline, or you’re going to pay the price of regret. Discipline weighs, ounces, regret weighs tons. And so this is an opportunity, right? To level up your mental and emotional skills. And since we’re dealing with a trillion dollar brain that you already own, and we’re getting the user’s manual for it, either you’re going to choose to level up your skills, or you’re going to choose to be a victim of not doing that. John (33m 55s): It’s your choice. That’s where awareness comes in, right? And it’s an awareness that you have choice and you can either say, well, look, what’s happening over there. Look, what’s happening on social media. Look, what’s happening on television, radio, and all that stuff where you can say, wait, because of that, I’m going to gain more self control, self awareness, and I’m going to be more deliberate in what I do. I let everybody else not figure this out, but I’m going to be somebody who figures this out because I can, Brad (34m 23s): Well, you just blew my excuse out of the water man. Good job. I love that we have all the technology too, to go beyond rather than, rather than succumb. I’m also seeing a pattern and I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna exclude myself from the, from the list here, but sometimes these distractions and diversions give us a payoff of instant gratification. So I decided to, you know, I announced that I want to lose excess body fat and go on a diet. Brad (34m 53s): I’m all strategized. I’m going to do it. And then on a certain day, I decided that a bowl of popcorn and sitting there watching binge watching a series on Netflix is more alluring than sticking to my habits and my programming. And I wonder, well, one way you would have to say about that? I guess there’s some balance. There’s something to be said for busting loose once in a while and not being a peak performer. But I think, yeah, I mean, I, I also referenced, you know, there’s some inner pain and suffering that we should embrace and recognize when we’re talking out one side of their mouth that we love hot dogs, Apple pie, and fireworks, and sitting on the lawn chair for eight hours. Brad (35m 32s): And then the other side is going, wow, why do I have 33% body fat and 234 Pounds? I’m putting it on you. Cause I want to hear the story of how you’ve evolved from someone who obviously you let yourself go and didn’t have a lot of things in place, especially your body, which is number one. John (35m 48s): Yeah. So on my 48th birthday, I went to get my annual physical and, you know, got on the scale. And then I went to my doctor, came in for our two hour annual physical and he says, wow, you gained another, you know, like 11 pounds this year. And, and at that time I was drinking way too much wine. Every single night I was eating dessert every night I was working out every morning, tired, exhausted, I’ve got sleep apnea. John (36m 22s): My blood results came back with, you know, borderline my blood pressure was borderline hypertensive, way too much sugar in my blood. So borderline diabetic, overweight, exhausted, not being able to ski with my children or have as much fun as I want to with my children. You know, sore knees, inflamed, everything feeling less than stellar. And he said to me, he says, Hey, do you know, do you want to go on hypertensive medicine? Do you want to go on a, you know, a medication for your blood sugar? John (36m 54s): And I said, no, dammit, I’m going to, I’m going to apply everything I’ve learned about business success, financial success, relationships. I’m gonna to apply it. And I’m gonna get into the best shape of my adult life by the time I’m 50. And so I put myself on a slow path to 50, not a fast path and knowing what I know about habits and behavior and changing the habitual thinking and emotions and behaviors. John (37m 24s): I put myself on a, a diet, an exercise regimen. I hired a coach, a nutritionist, and I put together an environment that fostered my wellbeing. I gave up drinking alcohol. So I haven’t had a drink in 12 years now. I got into the best shape of my life. By the time I was 50, I weighed 197 pounds felt great. Then about a couple of years later, I became a vegan. And I want to just share something with you about vegan. John (37m 55s): I also, I used to be a sugar holic as well. So I would have like desserts every night. And I realized that the sugar was affecting my leptin levels. That affecting my fact, I was affecting all that stuff. And again, this stuff that I had to learn. And so I gave up sugar as well with one exception every once in a while, I’ll have a carrot cake, even though I’m vegan, I’ll have a crispy chocolate chip cookie, even though I’m vegan to give myself a bit of that break every once in a while. But then I get right back on, you know, the proper nutrition and exercise program that sustains my health and wellbeing. John (38m 34s): But what I did is I took two years to get to a baseline and then I created a plan to sustain. So instead of saying, I’m going to lose the weight in 90 days, I said, how do I lose fat, not weight fat in a healthy way so that I can sustain it. And the answer for me was I had to change my lifestyle and then the diet would fall out to make a commitment and the type of life and energy and vitality and relationships that I want to have with my children and my wife, et cetera. John (39m 8s): And then I chose what’s the right exercise program for me, for what I love, what’s the right eating plan for me so that I could feel fulfilled and feel energetic, et cetera. So it wasn’t about a diet. It was about making a lifestyle change Brad (39m 25s): With the coaches, trainers nutritionists. So once again, you set up this environment for success and probably some accountability too, like heading to the appointment with the trainer, they’re waiting for you at the gym. You’re probably going to get a workout in that day. John (39m 37s): Yeah. I had actually a trainer come to my house six days a week for a year, days a week for a year and some mornings because I had sleep apnea some mornings I literally would be laying on the floor and they would just be moving my body because I was too tired to exercise. But because I wanted to develop the commitment and the habit, I was willing to pay for somebody to show up so that I would show up because left to my own devices and my own mindset back then, I would just say, ah, just stay in bed for another hour or two. John (40m 16s): But by having somebody at my house at 6:30 six days a week, Sunday was my day off. Then I go for a walk. I developed the habit of exercise or movement initially in order to develop the habit where I could do a little bit more intense work. And so I was committed to the outcome though, that was, you know, I wasn’t just interested in the outcome. I was committed to the outcome and I wanted to, you know, I set a goal to teach my children’s children when they were like, they’re 23 and 25 now. John (40m 47s): So, and they were like, you know, 10, 11 years old. I said, I will teach your children how to ski or snowboard. When they were 10 and 12 years old or 11 and 13. I said, I’m going to get into the best shape of my adult life and I’m going to sustain it so that when you have kids in 15 or 20 years, I will teach them how to ski or board, which is one of our family activities that we love. And I’ve held up my step at the bargain. I told my kids, I’ll get you into great shape when you’re young, you keep me in great shape. As I get older, Brad (41m 19s): I love it. That reminds me of my journey, coaching my son in all the sports and, you know, starting in third grade, my goal was to bring the heat to these guys. And so I was the MVP of every team all through the years, just dominating and basketball, soccer, track. Oh, show him these guys, how it’s done. And then around ninth or 10th grade, I became like the bench warmer and then kicked off the edge of the bench. But, you know, the journey of having something to, you know, to, to, to exchange and to, you know, make a contribution and set an example as a participatory coach, those were great motivators. Brad (41m 53s): And I’m, I’m hearing a little bit from the peanut gallery where they’re gonna have a reflective answer. Like, well, that’s nice, but I can’t afford to have a trainer come to my house every day, but there’s so many ways to set up accountability. So I wanted to put a little plug in there. Like if you can get out the door and take a walk and text your friend, I walked again today. That’s the same as John Assara having his fancy trainer come in and get him up out of bed. So let’s, let’s, you know, keep, keep the perspective here that setting these things up is very, very simpleThey have apps now where you can donate $30. Brad (42m 27s): And if you don’t complete your workout for the month, you owe it to your friend’s favorite charity and all that kind of fun stuff. John (42m 35s): Yeah. We can, you know, we can all have stories and excuses or we can have results, right. And so what are you most committed to the stories and excuses and reasons and circumstances, or are you committed to achieving the results that you want? Because you know, a lot of my clients, even though many of them cannot afford a trainer for one day, let alone, for six days, they can create accountability partnerships. They can find a friend, a husband, a wife, a child, a neighbor, somebody that’s willing to do it with them because they also have the goal. John (43m 11s): And when we create partnerships of accountability, when we create processes and systems of how we can, and we focus on how we can, because we want to, and we must versus why we can’t, because of all the obstacles that goes back into, if you’re going to allow your stories, your reasons, your excuses, or your beliefs to control your thinking, you’re going to be a victim of that thinking, instead of being somebody who figures out, how can I, that’s the cutting edge? John (43m 44s): That’s the bleeding edge. That’s the razor’s edge between those who achieve their goals. And those are second half goals. Brad (43m 55s): Those who set and have goals, raise your hand if you said it ” I have goals.” Wonderful. Congratulations. And then we go to the group who achieves them. Wow. Yeah. I’d love to be in both categories of setting goals and then achieving them. So I’m, I’m curious back to the, the, the big guy that likes to drink wine and eat sugar and went to the doctor. So it sounds like you had this, this, this trigger point in your life, which many people do they, they get the, the dire warning from the doctor and then that’s, that was the impetus for turning around. Brad (44m 27s): So do these things exist for all of us where we can have these turning these forks in the road where we’re either going to make it happen or not? John (44m 36s): Yeah. And, you know, unfortunate. Fortunately for me, you know, I caught a destructive pattern before it had major implications on my life. So I caught up because, you know, I went to the doctor, I listened and I said, okay, you know, and I, and I remember having this visual Brad of say, okay, imagine that I’m on a train and I’m on a certain track and I’m heading in a certain direction. Where is this heading? Brad (45m 11s): Let me explain. John (45m 12s): Yeah. It was getting towards, you know, obesity, heart attack, hypertension, you know, drugs to me, you know, to help with all this stuff. And I was like, no fucking way, do I want to go there? I was like, no way, am I going to stay on this train on this track, heading to that? Brad (45m 31s): Yeah. The, the first stop is CVS. Cause we gotta get all your pills before we can go anywhere. John (45m 36s): Yes. I just said no way. I refuse to make that my reality. And so that was the first thing is just the awareness of what I was not willing to accept. Okay. And we can do that in our health, wealth, relationships, career business. We can do that on every one of the fronts that we play on. Right. And that’s every area of our life. And so you have to ask yourself, you know, where am I heading? How fast am I going there? John (46m 7s): And is the destination acceptable to me? If the answer is yes, good pick up speed, go faster. If the answer is no way Stop, stop and ask yourself what has to happen in order for me to turn around, get on a different train and go in a different direction. What has to happen? What has to happen in my mindset? John (46m 38s): What has to happen in my emotional management? What has to happen in my skillset? What tools do I need? What resource do I need, whose help can I listen to what, what can I read? What program can I enroll in? What coach can I have? What accountability partner can help me. So once I make a decision that that’s not acceptable, and I asked myself empowering questions, and then I get the answers and take some small actions towards those. John (47m 9s): When I do that, now I’m back to being empowered versus disempowered. Now I’m back to constructing deliberately constructing my life and my results versus being a victim of circumstance or my habits that may be disruptive. And so now I’m stepping back into my power and I want to make sure for me, and for all of my students that were at choice, we’re at choice instead of reacting and playing out your habits day in and day out, you’re at the choice, creating your outcome and your future instead of being a victim of circumstances or your habits love it, man. Brad (47m 47s): I’m, I’m, I’m setting a record for most notes taken during a podcast. And I hope that listeners is with me and fired up. I feel like you’re, you’re Tony Robbins without all the hype and the excess. You’re just cutting to the chase without, I mean, it’s penetrating deep. I love this. And I have one question coming up where you’re back in the, in the doctor’s office, realizing that you’ve let your physical health go and you resolve to apply the same skills that you had with business, moneymaking and all that to your health goals. Brad (48m 21s): So you were excelling in certain areas of life and then other areas had been neglected. And I’m looking at my scoreboard, my checkbox, right? I mean, I was an athlete. I had these fitness things that were wonderful. And, and, but then, you know, how’s your finances, how’s your portfolio. And I would have to put a big fat frowny face on things and then sit back and ask myself, well, gee, you know, if I can train this hard to, to win a race on the pro circuit, why don’t I have my whole game on A plus level? Brad (48m 53s): And so maybe we can kinda cover that topic of how to leverage, cause almost everyone’s successful in a few categories, right? John (48m 56s): Yeah, absolutely. You know, whenever I take a look, we asked him like, what’s your net worth, right? It is, you know, your assets, less your liabilities. But if we’re going to say, you know, what’s your net worth is financially? What’s your net worth, you know, with your health? Are you, you know, are you positive or are you in a deficit? What’s your net worth with your relationships? John (49m 28s): Whether it’s with your children, your mother, father, sister, brother, friends, what’s your net worth? You know how well your business doing it? Let’s, let’s, let’s analyze and put a net worth though. All of our life just versus one area. Now, if you’ve achieved any level of discipline and positive net worth in one area, that discipline and process is transferable, right? So whenever I speak to, you know, whether it’s an athlete, that’s achieved some success being an athlete. John (50m 2s): I asked him or her, how did you think about your athletic endeavors, whether it was running or biking or swimming or basketball or football or golf, did you have any goals for that? Did you come up with a plan for how you were going to get better? What did you do with setbacks? What did you do to upgrade your knowledge and skills? Who did you hang around? Did you have a process that you, that you could look at to go here? John (50m 33s): Here’s how I became successful here. And then I would say, great. Are you doing that in this area of your life? And 99 times out of a hundred the answer is No. Not to the level that I’m doing is here. I said, okay, so you know what to do. You’re just not doing it here. So what if you applied the same level of focus, discipline, attention, and intention to this? Could you learn how to make money since there’s more than enough money, you know, on planet earth, could you learn how to manage it better? John (51m 9s): So if you made a dollar, could you learn how to manage that dollar? So you have enough for your expenses. You have enough for charity, have enough to invest. Of course you could learn that. Could you learn, you know how to protect it. Once you build some assets, how do you protect your business or your stock portfolio or your real estate portfolio? You don’t want to come off. Could you learn how to do it? Well, yes I can. Right? Could you learn how to use debt as leverage? And could you learn some techniques to get out of debt faster if you don’t know them right down there? John (51m 40s): A.nd everybody says, well, yeah, I could learn that if I want it to great. So the question now is, are you interested in learning it or are you committed? Are you interested? Because if you’re going to do what’s easy and convenient, but if you’re committed, you do whatever it takes. And so if you’re not committed, fuck having that as an intention and a goal, cause you’re not going to achieve it. So stop jerking around with yourself and hallucinating that magically it’s going to happen. It won’t. Like end that story. Now open prayer, okay. John (52m 11s): Is not a great strategy and the drug of choice for most people’s hopium, you know, where they’re hoping, hoping, hoping, hoping, hoping something changes, nothing will change until you change. And so just have a dose of reality and get committed to an outcome because all of the house, every single house that you want is already here. So the house is not your problem, the knowledge and skills or lack of them as not your problem. John (52m 42s): The problem is making a commitment to the outcome you want, and then already following the, how that exists. Brad (52m 50s): I’m I’m experiencing myself open to this message. And I’m wondering you pretty much have to be open or you’re going to be wasting your breath. You probably have chosen or figured out how to leave the person alone in the airplane seat if they, if they’re not receptive out of the gate. And I’m just wondering how, how this plays out in real life with such as friends, family members, you know, people that you love and care for that could probably use a little John Assara right now in this area of their lives. Brad (53m 23s): But as a mentor and a leader, all that, how do you, how do you dispense your information in real life? John (53m 26s): So I learned, I learned this a long time ago, Brad, and this is a pearl of wisdom. Are you ready? Brad (53m 34s): Ready? John (53m 34s): I am not in the convincing business. Period. End of story. If what I share with people resonates of truth and resonates of where they are in their lives that they’d like to, you know, learn more. I welcome, you know, I welcome you into the space, into the orbit, into making progress. If you’re just supposed to listen to it and you know, just do something else, do that. John (54m 7s): But I am not here to convince you, you know, a lot of times I just say, I like to observe people who’ve achieved what I want to achieve. And then I ask, how did they do that? I know. How did they think, how did they manage their emotions? What did they learn? What did they read? What did they do? How did they plan? How did they strategize? So that I can mimic and mirror their results. And I have my blueprints, I have my blueprints for health and wealth relationships, career and businesses, finances and fun, and the stuff that makes my life worthwhile living for me. John (54m 47s): Now, if anybody wants my blueprints, if anybody wants to surround themselves in the environment so that they can at least have a starting point and a process, the. I welcome them. And if they don’t, I love them and say, great. Find whatever resonates with you, but it’s gotta be hard to convince people to listen to my music. If they resonate with the music I’m singing, then wonderful sing along. Brad (55m 13s): And that’s gotta be tough at times. John (55m 18s): No, Brad (55m 18s): You’re okay? John (55m 18s): Yes. You’re like, you’re letting go of the attachment to the outcome. I’m not responsible for you. I’m responsible to you. Brad (55m 30s): And we talk about parenting now ?nd then on the show, I think it’s an important topic. So, you know, as your kids read different ages and different checkpoints now they’re, they’re adults. Have you kind of revised your parenting style to have more or less impact or inject some important things into the mix, whether they like it or not? They’re living with you, your house, under your control. I imagine there’s some different dynamics there? John (55m 53s): So my kids are 25 and 23 now. And so they, they live with their friends. I talk to them almost every single day. See them every week and everything that I have, you know, learned and taught them when they were younger, they’re out exploring and experiencing some things they’re doing the way I would, other things they’re not, and that’s the way they’re going to learn. John (56m 23s): And so I’m in a state of observation without judgment or blame or shame or guilt. And they know I love them unconditionally and care about them and here to support them and love them and guide them. And if they don’t follow my thoughts or ideas, I’m okay with that. That’s how they’re going to learn. And so I’m letting them be them. And The thing. One of the thing by a hierarchy of operating in the world is. John (56m 55s): Before I existed, there were about 107 billion humans that walked on earth or up until now anyway. And the universe is pretty intelligent and the intelligence in every human being is so unbelievable that I trust that. And so, you know, I, I did as much as I could with love for and with my children. And now it’s their turn to apply and learn and make mistakes and succeed and figure everything out and to share their lives with me and as little or as much detail as they like. John (57m 35s): And I’m totally cool with that. Brad (57m 37s): Love it, man. Well said, thank you very nice. Tell us about how you work with clients. You’ve mentioned that many times, what’s your operation? John (57m 46s): Sure. So my neurogym.com is a company that I developed and we have some coaching programs. We have a coaching protocol, exceptional life coaching. That’s a year long program at 297 bucks a year for 72 live trainings. We have some brain training programs. What do the game of money winning in the fear and procrastination. We within a weight loss, a waiting game of business, which is brain training programs and knowledge and skills videos, and the people get access to our community. John (58m 18s): I do a one on one consulting with, with individuals, which is very, very high end consulting, which is out of most people’s range. And so a variety of different programs and services. I do some keynotes, not very much around the world. I used to do it around the world. Now it’s mostly my, you know, and so that’s, that’s how we work. Brad (58m 43s): Tell us about this, this movie scene. You’ve been in a bunch, John (58m 47s): Two movies. I was in one of the smashed blockbusters The Secret many years ago, Brad (58m 56s): Being yourself? You were life coaching the people, or what were you doing in there? John (59m 0s): It was, there was more of a story around the vision boards and creating, you know, vision board. And I created my vision board with a house that I wanted and ended up living, buying and living the house that was on the vision board many years earlier, which was a bizarre story. I didn’t know where the house was when I cut it out of a magazine. I just used to visualize it every day when I used to live in Toronto, Canada and Amstar, Indiana. And then five years later, I ended up buying the house in San Diego and didn’t even know that I bought it. John (59m 35s): And so that story made it into the movie, the secret. And, and so that was one, one of the movies I was in and then just a bunch of personal development movies, whether it was with Richard Branson and the Dalai Lama, you know, or a variety of other movies just on personal development. So, you know, stories, processes, systems very similar to, you know, this podcast where you’re asking me a bunch of questions and I answer them. Those movies were very, very similar. Brad (1h 0m 3s): Well, I was going to ask you what you think of this hip new trend of manifesting and, and making vision boards. And I, I think you kind of answered that. There’s something to it. I’ve, I’ve sort of, I have to admit, I’ve kind of discounted this stuff for a long time. Maybe it goes the, the picture that some people paint that you, you know, you dream that your, your ideal, man’s got a trim beard and he flies in a private jet and gets out and gets into his Ferrari. And it seemed kind of silly looking from an outside. Brad (1h 0m 34s): But now I’ve had some guests On the show they’ve talked about that This thing works. And boy, you, you bought the, You bought the house, you cut out of a magazine and didn’t know it. I don’t know. I think I’ve ever heard anything top that man. John (1h 0m 49s): Yeah. And, and so there was in the movie, The Secret we talked about, you know, this thing called the Law of Attraction and most people misunderstand what this Law of Attraction is. And they forget that the last six letters of the word attraction is action. And so when you take inspired action and you are in resonance with the vision, the goal, you know, the dream that you have now, we’re in resonance.pYou know, we are molecular structures, right? John (1h 1m 21s): We have a hundred trillion cells in our body that vibrate and oscillate at a certain we’ll call it frequency when that vibration is in resonance with the vision of the goals that you have, and you have the mindset to focus on it, you know, the emotions to be able to resonate with it, but also the behaviors to achieve it. Now we’re able to attract things. Now, what I can’t explain yet, Brad, and I’ve studied a lot of quantum physics and quantum mechanics around how was it possible for me to cut up a picture of a house, put it on a dream board, see it for, you know, every day and visualize it every day. John (1h 2m 3s): And then how did I actually end up buying that house five years later, you know, six, eight years, 325 orange trees on the top of a mountain. How is that possible? That piece I can’t answer from a factual logical piece that is still a mystery of the mind that I don’t know if I’ll ever understand, you know, that at that level, but I can give you my best guess of that, of being in total resonance and harmony with that, that somehow there’s something happening at this quantum field of potentiality that I just resonated with and integrated with on every level I was in, in that flow that every athlete knows, right? John (1h 2m 53s): I was saying I was in flow with that so much that somehow that became a reality. And, but, but again, if you want to go to the scientific explanation of that, which is where I tend to go to, I can’t answer that final little piece of, of how that was possible. If you look at the mathematical possibility of that happening, it’s astronomically against it happening. But it did. And it wasn’t a house like it, it was the, and so that’s still a thing. John (1h 3m 29s): You know, if I had a big, long beard, I’d go things that make me go. And that’s just a lifelong pursuit of being curious to find the answer. Brad (1h 3m 40s): John Assaraf, well done. Amazing show. We’re going to go get the book Innercise, the new science to unlock your brain’s hidden power. And then tell us about the website again, your training. John (1h 3m 51s): Great. So they don’t go to myneurogym.com, myneurogym.com. If they want to find out a little bit about a brain training event that we have called the brain-a-thon, just go to brain-a-thon one, two, three.com. Brain-a-thon one two three.com. Brad (1h 4m 10s): John Assaraf. Thanks for listening everybody. That’s a wrap. Go take some action. Now. Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. Brad (1h 4m 42s): And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to thanks for doing it.



Barb Garrison is a Career & Money Breakthrough Coach and “Job-You-Love” expert at Internal Groove, the company she founded 14 years ago. This is an interesting show about doing some deep reflection to discover your truth and taking action to pursue the highest expression of your talents while making an economic contribution.

Barb is walking her talk, having left a high-stress corporate job in LA that was destroying her health and tapping into her natural inclination to coach and mentor others. Soon after her career change, Barb upped the ante and bailed on her lifelong home base of Los Angeles for a quieter, simpler life in Boulder, CO with her husband.

In this show, you’ll learn to reflect on your life journey to date and discover themes and patterns that suggest the nature of your true talents and passions. We’ve heard enough blather in the entrepreneurial realm about how you should be a badass and quit your job and go conquer the world. Barb cuts through a lot of the nonsense to explain that you can align your career pursuits with your personality, level of risk tolerance, and also the practical aspects and responsibilities of day to day life. For example, maybe you don’t need to tell the boss to take their job and shove it, but can find a more suitable position within your existing career framework. Barb does this type of coaching and consultation to help burned out, success-driven professionals move on from self-doubt to freedom. Informed by your natural gifts and highest truth, Barb is an expert at designing creative career solutions you might not see on your own. She can be found working one-on-one with clients around the country, in private retreats with those who fly in to work with her, plus teaching from the stage at workshops and leading mastermind groups. Barb is developing an exciting online course that will help you conduct some helpful exercises to discover your truth ― what makes you leap out of bed on Monday mornings!

You’ll enjoy a profound insight about the ever-popular email inbox that came to her when she was tasked with taking over the inbox of her recently deceased father. Barb will also address that “elephant in the room” issue of what to do when your stated passion and calling has difficult income prospects. Yes, there are solutions and adaptations that can help propel you forward to a more rewarding career and a more peaceful, meaningful, stress-balanced life. As Barb explains: “I think the first step is getting clear. Many people want to jump to the end result, the final job title. I tell my clients, ‘We’re going to be collecting pieces of the puzzle to put together,’ but what I want them to do is suspend their need to jump to ‘What is the final result?’ Leave that to the side, slowly start collecting pieces of the puzzle, and watch the picture emerge. You can’t skip over the steps.”

If you’d like more resources about how to make a move in your professional life, you can learn more by taking career change courses that can shed light on the ways you can carry out such an important decision.


It takes a lot of courage to pick up your life and move to a new adventure. [04:46]

Barb is a career, money, breakthrough coach, and a job-you-love expert. [08:35]

Why is it so difficult to find a balance between chill time and a hectic career life? [10:02]

What Barb learned after she had a “hit over the head with a frying pan” awakening in her hectic life is now being applied to her coaching work. [17:43]

Many people want to change their job but don’t know where to start. [21:53]

What if what you are passionate about doesn’t pay the bills? [24:52]

Don’t assume that you have to start your own business.  There are ways to negotiate ways in your employment to access your talents and passion. [27:00]

So, what happens to the person who feels inspired to move out, and then find it was a poor decision? {31:28]

When you look at something you like to do, go deeper and see what it is about that that you like. [37:10]

It’s a good idea to start a personal “Freedom Fund.” [40:24]

Suspend your need to jump to the final result. [44:37]

Sometimes we feel that when our email box is empty and our to-do list is completed, then we’ll have time to start living our real life. [48:11]

No matter what choice we make, there are always tools for our toolbox that are being added. [52:13]

Hopefully the COVID pandemic has taught us to simplify things, lowering the volume on the noise of the pings and dings from our phones. [55:21]



  • “I believe there’s always a way. It takes creativity, it takes being all in for it, it takes tenacity and passion, and a lot of people give up way before the fruits of their labor come through.”
  • “What do you love talking about more than anything else?”
  • “Most people want to go for the quick, end result, tactical stuff. But you’ve got to do the thinking, the investing, and the exploration [first].”
  • “One of the things I recognized was the wisdom of our body. I don’t think we really acknowledge the wisdom…our body gives us messages and very often we ignore [them].”
  • “The idea of this linear career path was slammed into a lot of our brains, and we have to unwind that in a way.” (Brad)


Download Episode MP3

Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad [00:04:10]. I think we’re just going to have to get right into this because I’m so excited after reading your incredible, uh, promo info.

Barb (00:04:17):

Brad (00:04:18):
Pitch probably the best one ever.

Barb (00:04:20):
Wow. Well, thank you.

Brad (00:04:22):
I mean, listeners Barb Garrison’s coming in strong here already with a bunch of suggested sample questions, interview topics, the bullet points of your amazing work. So I’m so excited because you already career and money, breakthrough coach and job you love expert. That sounds fun for almost all listeners. Right?

Barb (00:04:45):

Brad (00:04:46):
Who can’t benefit from that? So, first thing I want to ask you about is, um, to set the stage here, uh, it says you relocated from a fast paced life in LA to live in the beautiful Rocky mountains in Boulder, Colorado. So tell me about that move. What prompted it? How’s it going? How long has it been? How long have you been out there in Boulder?

Barb (00:05:06):
I love that you asked me that question. You know, this was actually part of my grand plan. I was actually born and raised in Los Angeles as was my husband. So it was a really big move for us to consider leaving. Um, we did a lot of research to find some of the right places to consider. I always had Colorado in my heart cause I actually went to college here, way back when, um, but my husband was not up for it because he thought I was chasing my youth. And as it turned out, he finally, after, I don’t know how many years believe me, that it wasn’t about my youth. It was about the lifestyle. And I just felt the wells of LA closing in on me. I, you know, we were living in a beautiful condo in a very congested area. And I had this vision that I felt like I was living in an ice cube tray and I had my one little ice cube and there were people all around me and I just needed more elbow room or nature, more fresh air, more big skies. And plus I wanted, I wanted a new adventure, you know, I’d spent my whole life in LA, which was great. I’ve no regrets. Did every LA thing you could possibly imagine. And then some, and I was ready for like a totally new adventure, which to me is a way to boost your creativity.

Brad (00:06:20):
Well, I guess you, the way you express it, you don’t have to have a distinct reason. And I think just those feelings and those sensations and I I’m the same, Barb. I was born and raised in the San Fernando Valley. And uh, you know, you see that your social networks and your family and everything kind of, uh, locks into place at a certain age. And I realized that I was either going to be stuck there my whole life or that, you know, I could kind of pursue this kind of calling to get out of there, especially cause I was an athlete riding my bike every day and dealing with the traffic on Pacific Coast Highway. And you know, you just kind of have to place yourself in a different environment and imagine yourself doing something different. And I think it takes a lot of courage because we get so locked into patterns as humans. It ain’t easy, even if it’s a wonderful, beautiful place like Boulder, how could you go wrong? But it takes, you know, it takes a little bit of, uh, a little bit of effort and a new mindset, huh?

Barb (00:07:18):
No question. And certainly a transition, you know, there was a lot of new things to figure out. Um, I watched my husband really struggle. Um, cause he’s, he had to start his business all over from scratch. Um, he was willing to do it. He’s doing great now it took him a while. Um, but it’s OK. You know, I feel like we grew together. We both grew individually and our businesses grew and so it was well worth it. I have no regrets. The only thing I miss is people, um, friends and loved ones. Although I will tell you one thing that led to this is that so many of our friends and family had moved all over. And so, um, it’s not like we had that home base in LA, like we once did growing up and you know, now with technology, we’re so fortunate to be able to talk to people from all over and stay in touch. And um, so you know, it, it was part of my grand plan with my business when I started my business to have a business that I could do from anywhere. And so, um, you know, that’s turned out to be great and frankly, with everybody working from home and COVID, and the way that we’ve been communicating, you know, in some ways I feel fortunate because I was ahead of my time preparing for this, not knowing that I needed to do this. So the transition for me was actually quite seamless.

Brad (00:08:35):
Okay. So you’ve been doing this, uh, you can describe the nature of your business. You’ve been doing it for 14 years and it sounds like that came on the heels of a corporate career. So take me through that transition now that we know why you got the heck out of LA and went to Boulder.

Barb (00:08:52):
Yeah, well, I, um, you know, I had an amazing career. I worked my whole life to climb the corporate ladder, get to where I was going. I was ultimately ultimately the, um, director of marketing and sponsorship for a very large company in LA. I was very high profile. I got to have lots of perks, red carpets, you know, a business card with a very nice title and a nice salary. And all of those things that I’d worked really hard for. I was working six or seven days a week and I was fried. I mean, fried beyond belief and fried so much that it started impacting my health, number one. And number two, I had recently gotten married to my husband. We had gotten married later in life and, you know, I guess it really just helped me shift some of my priorities. Life wasn’t all, all work and no play. And, um, you know, I became essentially the coach that I desperately needed back then, because back then, you know, now this was 15 years ago, uh, coaching didn’t really exist. Well, it didn’t small ways, but not in the way that I coach now. And certainly not in the way it is in the world.

Brad (00:10:02):
So this is a common story of people getting fried, uh, with a high, high powered career. And why do you think that we allow ourselves to go down that road? I know there’s some pressure from, uh, expectations, management, but I feel like a lot of us, uh, we bring it on ourselves by taking our mobile device into the weekend and trying to engage and not having those, those boundaries and barriers between, uh, personal chill time and, and, and work. And then to follow up the question and to add a little bit to it. Do you think that your environment had any influence on that? In other words, is it more difficult to disengage in LA in your ice cube tray than it might be in Boulder when you’re walking up the, uh, uh, the trail in the mountains?

Barb (00:10:51):
Yes. I definitely think there’s an energy in LA and it isn’t an obvious one. I didn’t even know I had this internal buzz in my body until about a year into living back in Colorado when I was like, Oh my gosh, I just felt everything settled. And it wasn’t at first, it really took about a year and it wasn’t pressure from any one person. Nobody said anything to me. Um, I’m not an especially competitive person, but what I am is very achievement oriented. And so it’s more about beating myself and going to the next level and being the best at what I do. And, you know, in many ways that’s how I was raised. Um, but I feel like at some point the payoffs for that weren’t there anymore, you know, I was very aware of what I used to say back then is, you know, I have this amazing job that anybody would, would really give the right arm for. And yet my soul was leaking out of me like little bit at a time. I was withering on the vine and I had to notice that, and it took a while, you know, um, I, I call it the cosmic frying pan. You know, when you ignore the taps on your shoulder, they turn into kicks in the butt. When you ignore the kicks in the butt, you end up with a big frying pan over your head. And for me, um, I I’m a little bit stubborn and I’m very tenacious. So I thought I could do it. And when I basically started getting elements of that cosmic frying pan, which to me showed up as starting to have health challenges and, you know, they started out as small things, you know, a rash that wouldn’t go away, hair falling out, having trouble sleeping, you know, kind of stomach in a knot. Um, but, but it grew to losing my voice literally, which I don’t think is an accident and was quite metaphorical.

Brad (00:12:43):
Uh, well, let’s stop there. And I want to detail that because if you will here in Boulder, so you’re surrounded by all kinds of alternative health people and, and spirituality. And I, I’m not gonna claim to be a big enthusiast in that area, but I’m starting to appreciate that connection more deeply. And my podcast guest, Elle, Russ was talking about, uh, how, you know, she, she blew up her thyroid. She wrote a book about, uh, you know, healing, your thyroid naturally The Paleo Thyroid Solution. And, you know, she said the positioning of the thyroid gland right there, uh, in the front of your throat is representative of moving, losing your voice, losing your, your, uh, assertiveness in life, uh, can manifest as a thyroid problem. And I remember, um, talking to my man, Mark Sisson at a time when I was having some financial stresses and difficulties and, you know, talking through that he is as my mentor.

Brad (00:13:40):
And, um, it was at the same time I was suffering from, or recovering from a terrible bout of extreme vertigo that lasted for two weeks. And I said something about being upside down in terms of financial. And he goes, that’s interesting, you’re complaining that you’re upside down on certain thing and you just got done with vertigo and I’m like, yeah, what about it? You know, and he’s like, don’t you see that? And I’m like, Oh my gosh, that’s crazy. So, anyway, that’s my little personal thing, but tell me more about how you make this connection between that health problem of, of literally having a problem with your thorax and your projection of your, of your speech and losing your voice in the, in the career.

Barb (00:14:22):
Well, you, you just gave a perfect example. I mean, one of the things that I’ve learned, I’ve learned so many lessons since that time, but one of the things I recognized was the wisdom of our body. And I don’t think we, we, we really acknowledged the wisdom and I use that word very particularly, you know, our body gives us messages and tells us things that I think very often we ignore. I was one of those people. And in fact, you’ll laugh to know that, yes, I too blew up my thyroid. Um, not knowing it exactly at that time, but there was a whole series of things that happened, and yes, I have, uh, two, uh, thyroid diseases. And I do believe it goes back to that time. And, um, you know, what, what started out as, uh, being sick, it was bronchitis and, you know, went to the doctor after I wasn’t getting my voice back and I was still coughing and it was really rough.

Barb (00:15:13):
And I was on multiple rounds of antibiotics, three to be specific. And I never got my voice back. And, um, so it was during a very busy time at work. And I went to the doctor, you know, quickly during a lunch break thinking she was going to give me some magic pill. And she basically said, you’re going home and you’re not going back to work. I said, I can’t, it’s so busy there right now. It’s our big season. I absolutely cannot do this. And she said that I’m putting you in the hospital because you’re not listening to yourself. And I was like, Whoa, that really, really got my attention. Really got my attention. So,

Brad (00:15:53):
Uh, that’s the frying pan.

Speaker 2 (00:15:55):
Yes, it was. And there was another frying pan on top of that, which went hand in hand, which is I went home. I went to sleep. I had been so short on sleep for days and days and days because I was working seven days a week and I slept for three straight days. I didn’t answer the phone cause I was literally passed out. And what woke me up was a process server at the door. Um, handing me a, uh, certified mail from what wasn’t technically a processor. It was certified mail from my company’s HR department saying that I was being defiant, even though my, um, my doctor faxed, um, uh, uh, an email to them explaining that I need, I needed to stay home. And, um, you know, it was, it was a rude awakening, but it was so clear. It was like, that’s really the cosmic frying pan. Like, what am I doing? This is crazy. I wasn’t being defiant. I was actually taking care of myself for the first time. And it was probably about six years.

Brad (00:16:57):
Wow. So, uh, that sounds like the appreciation for you working yourself to the bone. Wasn’t quite there. If they’re sending you a certified letter to obviously that’s like the, the protection of, uh, eventual legal proceedings or something that sounds like a slap in the face.

Barb (00:17:14):
Yeah. Yeah. And it felt like that. Although I have to tell you looking back, I have no regrets. I have no animosity towards the company. And one of the reasons I have no regrets is because I’m now doing work that I love more than anything I’ve ever done in my life. I’ve never had a job for 14 years. And certainly not one that I’ve loved this much. It’s so in alignment with who I am, and frankly, because of my tenacity, I’d probably still be sitting in my windowless office working like that. If I didn’t get that cosmic frying pan.

Brad (00:17:43):
So this, uh, this show of, uh, Barb storytelling time has an important theme. And it’s because all these insights that you learned in this experience, you have, you’re now bringing this to your offering, which is so fascinating. And I think so many people can, can benefit from this. So maybe you should tell us how that sounds like that career was wrapping up pretty soon. And then what gave you the idea to kind of put together your offering of being the, the special coach that you are?

Barb (00:18:14):
Yeah, well, um, I, luckily I had planned and saved money. I also had an incredible husband who was a brand new husband at the time. And he said, you know, if you have to, if I have to work three jobs so that you can quit, I will. And you know, he never had to do that, but it was such, it was one of the greatest gifts anyone ever gave me any. It gave me the courage to just stop, even though I had no idea what I was going to do instead. In fact, um, people kept asking me what I was going to do. And I very, um, in renegade fashion, I said, I’m going to go be a bartender on the beach in Puerto Vallarta. Only I’m going to build a hut and I’m going to face the ocean. And, uh, th the clients are gonna have to face the street and the buildings.

Barb (00:18:54):
And while I never did that, it was like the feeling that I was looking for. And, um, it was funny cause my going away party, they, everybody wore grass skirts and made mocktails. And so it was pretty funny cause no one could believe that I could work my whole life and get to the level that I was at and just stop. And so I basically sat on my couch, took naps and sat under a tree for three months. And, um, I do realize, you know, I I’m very privileged to have this because I was making a good living. I was smart enough to save what I now call a freedom fund. And I got my health back. That was the first thing I did.

Brad (00:19:34):
Interesting. I think when we’re immersed into that a high stress environment, whether it’s a corporate workplace or my reference with being an athlete and training super hard and traveling around the world and we can do it, we can even thrive on that energy and go, go, go. But there is a point where you come to the edge of a cliff and your health can get destroyed without you even knowing it or leading up to. And I think that that story of the bronchitis and the doctor knowing better than you, that you were headed for disaster, um, you know, those, those wake up calls, it’d be nice if they came along the way, but the nature of the high energy environment is that it’s, it’s asking you to be in fight or flight mode all the time and you can carry on. And for, I guess you said six years was that time period where you were just grinding and not paying attention to your health until it, until it fell apart. And then needing that, you know, three months sitting under a tree or sleeping for three days on end. And that’s no joke either because the, when the energy stops and when the stress, you know, alleviates finally, uh that’s when you really have to realize how far you’ve fallen and how to pick up the pieces.

Barb (00:20:42):
Yep. It’s true. And I will say to be fair, I mean, I loves that job and, and it really wasn’t six years that I was having the health issues. It was really two years, but it was too long. That’s for sure, because I was ignoring those kicks in the butt and I did get to the place where I hit the wall. So, you know, now I am basically the coach I desperately needed back then. Um, you know, it’s funny because my career wasn’t in marketing. Um, you know, I had a big plan for my business with all this marketing. And what I find is I haven’t needed too much of it because essentially my best marketing tool is telling my story. Um, and people see that I’ve gotten to the other side of it. So it’s like, I’m on the other side of the street saying, come over here, it’s better over here. And I can help you walk across those hot coals to get over here. And so, you know, that’s often what people want is someone to be their guide, their mentor, their coach, their consultant to really be right by their side to help create something from scratch. And, you know, I said, what many of my clients say to me, which is I hate my job, but I have no idea what to do instead. And I don’t even know where to start.

Brad (00:21:53):
Wow. So let’s say, uh, as an exercise, there’s a listener who’s just in that position and knows that this is not their destiny, but they don’t have that. You know, I mean, you listen to the, the entrepreneurial dogma of, you know, you have to be hit over the head with something and, and, you know, live and breathe it day and night, and then you’ll be successful. But what if you just feel that itching for a change, but you’re not, you don’t have a clear plan yet.

Barb (00:22:21):
It’s a great question. You know, before I answer the specific tool, which I will give you, I want to back up one step, which is, I think it’s absolutely critical that the work we do is in alignment with our truth. And, you know, that sounds very esoteric and big picture and all of that but you know what the truth is, we all have a truth. And what I say by truth, what I mean by that is our skills, our essence, our natural gifts and talents, the things that we’ve been doing since we were five years old, the things that we do when we don’t get paid, the things that when we wake up on Saturday morning, we feel like doing first, this is all part of our truth. And it isn’t this grand, you know, esoteric idea. It’s really about looking at yourself and really listening to what lights you up, what sets you apart?

Barb (00:23:15):
What makes you different? What inspires you? Where do you feel called to give, where do you feel called to speak? And I say that because one way you can find out is if you go to, um, you know, events, cocktail parties, I’m going to say before, COVID, you know, it’s like, what do you talk to people about that that would be one exercise? Like, what is it you talk about when you’re not getting paid? What do you, what do you love talking about more than anything else? And so, one thing I did is I started noticing in the job that I had. One of the reasons I was working such long hours is because I had a lot of responsibility, but I also had a team. And one of the things I would do is I would spend a lot of time working with them, mentoring them, you know, I didn’t use this word then, but coaching them.

Barb (00:24:04):
And then when they all went home at four or five o’clock, it’s like, I would start my regular job. And then I was working till midnight so that I could both support them and do the job that was expected of me. So I started recognizing, wow, like that’s what I do naturally is mentoring and support people. And then I started thinking about, you know, I was a camp counselor from the time I was 17. I did it for years. I was part of a youth group that, um, mentored, um, kids who were in the hospital when I was like 14. Like, these are just things I used to love to do when I was really tiny. Instead of like setting up a wedding, like many young girls do with their stuffed animals. I actually set up a clinic to help each of the stuffed animals and I would counsel them and nurse them.

Brad (00:24:52):
Wow. That’s some profound insights. I love it. And possibly a lot of us have similar, uh, reflections or memories. Uh, but now I’m tying together, uh, Barb sample question, number four, I got to hit you with this now. Uh, what if, what if, what you’re passionate about doesn’t pay the bills or it doesn’t have a great income prospects and we’re faced with that real life brick wall where, you know, my calling is to a blank blank. Uh, but we don’t see the economic reward there too clearly.

Barb (00:25:26):
Yes. So the first tip I have around that is don’t make that decision in advance. A lot of people do that. They’re like, Oh, I’d really love to be XYZ, but there’s not enough money to pay the bills in that. Well, don’t decide that cause you haven’t even started doing your research. You wouldn’t even know, you don’t even know what the possibilities are. Most people go to the first sort of job title they can think of and stop there. And so I really recommend doing more self exploration and self-discovery because that’s one component of what comes naturally to me, but there’s also other things that fit with that. So that’s number one. Number two, I will tell you, um, I really believe you can make money doing anything. I really, really, really believe that now, is it easy? No. Is it, is it sometimes feel like swashbuckling in the jungle where you need a machete to like chart your own path.

Barb (00:26:19):
It’s not the preset path that you just sign up and press play. Yes. And I do believe still that it can be done and it may take some time. You may need to start as a volunteer. You may need to start as doing it as a side gig. You may do it as starting your own business on the side while you have a corporate job, which by the way, I did that with another business that I had years ago. And so I just believe there’s always a way it takes creativity. It takes being all in for it and it takes, um, tenacity and passion. But I think a lot of people give up way before the fruits of their labor come through. Um, you know, they decide in advance. This won’t work

Brad (00:27:00):
Interesting. It’s also possible that the same passions could be, uh, adapted, modified into a career model, uh, better than most people shrug it off. And I like how you, you, um, observe that we go to the most immediate and obvious, um, uh, example like my son. He’s graduated from UCLA, he’s got a degree, he’s got a lot of income and job prospects for his future, but he loves cooking and working in the restaurant was his great passion. And if you, uh, look at that as a career track, uh, it’s a much more difficult route than doing something, uh, leveraging your academic, uh, training. However, uh, you know, there’s people that are in the, in the world of food and all that that are, you know, uh, able to wed that passion with, let’s say training in finance or things that are important in the, in the restaurant scene too, or like Steve jobs with his, uh, studying calligraphy and, uh, art and aesthetics. And he’s in the Silicon Valley and the high tech scene, but he brought that passion into, into the mix with success.

Barb (00:28:24):
Absolutely. And another thing I’m going to add to that is, you know, don’t assume that you have to start your own business to live out your true, your truth, your, your passion and your purpose. You know, it’s, I I’ve worked with clients and I’ve helped them redesign their job that they’re in. And for example, negotiate to, um, one woman I worked with straddle two departments. Um, you can also, you know, work on projects. You can talk to your boss and ask about what kind of things are coming up and how you might apply your talents to areas of the company might be looking at in the future. You know, it does require having the conversation, asking the questions and being vulnerable and being open. That’s the thing most people don’t do. They think they just have to quit to go somewhere else. And you don’t, you know, the other thing is, I think it’s possible to start, um, living some of those things, even on, on the side, you know, a side gig or doing it. Like I said earlier as a volunteer, you know, you don’t have to be 20 years old to be an intern. You know, there’s that great movie out about that. It’s an older movie, but you know, you can, you can offer to help someone in a business that really inspires you to learn from it. And so I don’t think there’s one way and I, I think it’s really only limited by creativity.

Brad (00:29:42):
Yeah. And if you’re going to feel negative about this, or have a, have a quip you know, in response that Barb doesn’t know what she’s talking about, uh, you’re probably right, because if you don’t believe it, it’s never going to happen for you. And then you, you were just saying a few minutes ago that you firmly believe it’s possible. You can make money pursuing your passion and because you believe it you’re right too. So I liked that first inch forward that baby step forward to say, Hey, I’m going to, I’m going to be open to possibilities here. And in today’s economy, I think more than ever any other time in the history of the world, you know, now things can really happen where man, 20, 30 years ago, we’d have a tough time even, uh, being a career coach, like you launching your thing in the wrong era, uh, would have had a much more difficult road, but now it’s commonplace.

Barb (00:30:37):
Absolutely. And you know, I think that for people right now who unfortunately are losing their jobs and things like that, you know, well, I certainly don’t want to, um, diminish their pain and frustration. And, um, people being really scared at the same time. I do think with the right mindset, it’s possible to see it as an unexpected, hidden gift that they didn’t even know they had, because now they’ve got nothing to lose. So now maybe they’re willing to take a new risk or try something new. The other thing too is, you know, there’s a lot of, um, funds out there available for starting small businesses. And I think that’s going to grow even more as we move through this next year. Um, because we need to get the economy going and small businesses, one of the ways to do that. Um, so you know, it can be an opportunity.

Brad (00:31:28):
So just for some perspective here, and you’ve been in this mix for a long time, engaged with a lot of people, do you see people messing up this journey and what are some of the mistakes made by the brazen person who quits their job and throws a party with people wearing Tiki skirts, and then they come back to you a year later or they come crawling back to their, their boss begging for their old life back.?Uh, I’m just curious about that side of the equation.

Barb (00:31:59):
Yeah. It’s a great question. I’m glad you asked that. Um, you know, I don’t believe that it’s about being crazy, being brazen, risking your livelihood, your, your family’s ability to eat. I don’t believe that. Um, I do believe that you can plan for it. I do believe that you can, you know, I mean, I started to, I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I started to really cut back on the expenses that I was using the, you know, a year before I actually did it. I just got, I just knew I wasn’t going to be doing it forever. And I put as much of my paycheck away as I could, you know, and I think also that we have to be all in for what’s possible, but it doesn’t have to be now, you know, maybe you take an intern thing. So when I quit my other job, and after I sat under a tree for three months, I took a job that was a part time consulting position because I, I couldn’t just quit and start a business from scratch and sit behind my phone and wait for the phone to ring.

Barb (00:32:58):
So, you know, I worked on my business, I built my brand, it took me about nine months to do all that. And I worked during that time in another job that had some elements of allowing me to do what I love doing until I was able to quit. So I, you know, I’m not proposing people jump off a cliff and then be drowning and go, what the heck did I do? You have to plan for it?

Brad (00:33:23):
Oh, that’s cool. Uh, I liked that answer and it sounds like you don’t have to have this template, bad-ass entrepreneur personality to make this leap that you described, because I feel like, uh, even, even myself, I’ve been an entrepreneur. My whole life I’m just happened to be the personality type that thrives on going for opportunities and all that. But you get so intimidated by the, the dogma that people are spitting out that you have to be this, uh, this fearless explorer, you know, sailing the boat across unchartered seas. And I feel like there’s a more broad opportunity here for all different types of personalities and people with different levels of risk tolerance.

Barb (00:34:06):
You’re absolutely right about that. This is why I think you can do it as an employee and as an entrepreneur. You know, one other idea to give your listeners is there’s something that I call a career umbrella. So if you imagine, you know, an actual umbrella and you can do two or three things that fit underneath that umbrella, and maybe one or two of them, isn’t exactly in alignment with really where you’re at or what you want or what you want to contribute. But one really is. And so you put a couple of things together. Some pay the bills more than others, and you have a bigger picture. And pretty soon you can start to build on the one that is starting to grow. Because it does take time to build a business or build a career doing something that you’ve never done before. And so, you know, you can take steps. You don’t have to just go for the end result. I think we’re often, you know, impatient. We want to go for the end result by, you know, this afternoon. And it, it takes steps.

Brad (00:35:05):
We want to go for the end result by this afternoon. And we get extremely discouraged and negative if it doesn’t happen by this afternoon. And then we spiral back into the place we were stuck at in the first place.

Barb (00:35:17):
Yes. And you, you heard me use the words all in. You have to be all in to me, that’s a mental state. You have to be all in for what feels right to you and all in doesn’t mean that it’s going to come immediately or it’s going to be, you know, um, you know, lucrative from the start. One of the things I did from the beginning, you know, I was so clear. I didn’t want to go back to a corporate job. I mean, so clear that one of the things I would say is if I have to stand on the corner with a sandwich board advertising my services, I will do that. And I really meant that, like, I was truly ready to do that. Thankfully I never needed to. Um, and you know, back then 14 years ago, I mean, we really didn’t have a lot of the online marketing tools that we have today. And so, you know, the sandwich board to me represented, like, what am I willing to do? And I really was willing and I meant that and felt it down to my bones.

Brad (00:36:14):
Wow. Okay. So there’s, um, there’s your distinction between the 78 people who have tried to launch a similar business and it didn’t work out is they probably weren’t willing to where the sandwich board deep down. I love that.

Barb (00:36:29):
I think the other thing too is, you know, I’m a, I’m a learner, I’m an avid avid learner. And so, you know, the first five years of my business, I was in multiple coaching programs, studying different marketing techniques that I hadn’t used in my marketing career that were more about, um, coaches, you know, I invested quite a lot of money, um, over the course of the first 10 years, you know, in terms of working with different coaches, doing different programs, reading a ton, you know, like rather than watching TV, I’ll, you know, listen to three podcasts or read a book or, you know, go to a conference. I kind of devour the opportunity to figure it out.

Brad (00:37:10):
Those are all good success formulas. And I imagine you would, um, uh, have that as part of your offering. So I’m curious, uh, if someone’s, let’s say thinking of tiptoeing in this direction of getting some support, what does the model look like? What are the opportunities out there? I know you can describe your own offering, but I’m just curious, uh, you know, there’s, there’s books and podcasts and things, but if someone really wants to, uh, explore and starting with that amazing insight, you mentioned about how you’ve always been doing this your whole life and you had the clinic for the stuffed animals. Um, maybe there are some hidden things that I’ve always been doing my whole life, and I’m not even aware of it. Is there a way to kind of get in closer touch with that?

Barb (00:37:56):
For sure. I really recommend that people look at their history, I’m going way back and almost like timeline it, like, what are the things they used to do before they had to worry about paying bills? You know, what, what, what did they enjoy? What did, what came naturally to them? What brought them pleasure and to really like dig deep and look for that, look for patterns. You know, someone that, you know, loves to plan parties for, um, uh, relatives and friends. You know, certainly the obvious thing is you can do be of do event planning, but dig deeper than that look at well. What is it about event planning that you love? You know, most people that are really good at event planning are very good on their feet, cause events always go awry and you’re a very good problem solver on your feet. Um, you all tend to be very creative, uh, in solving problems, but also creating a visual aesthetic. Um, usually you’re an excellent project manager and you have terrific, uh, attention to detail. So it doesn’t mean you have to then go out and be an event planner, but then look at some of these skills that are underneath that and then see where those start to fit together.

Brad (00:39:05):
Oh, so that’s the umbrella,

Barb (00:39:07):
That’s a different, it’s different. I mean, I realized I did the same thing with my hands, but, um, the umbrella is more about, uh, different types of jobs or part time gigs or something where you’re a consultant and then you have a full time job. But when I say dig deeper, what I’m suggesting is you don’t just look at the obvious like, Oh, I should be an event planner. Cause I used to love throwing parties for my girlfriends when I was 10. Right. But what is it about that, that lights you up? Like what are the pieces of that?

Brad (00:39:39):
Oh boy, that sounds fun because you’d be throwing a bunch of stuff on the paper. And then, uh, literally connecting dots perhaps where, what, what are the common theme between, uh, serving yogurt at the yogurt shop when I was 16 and uh, delivering newspapers and then moving into this and moving into that, because I think the, the idea of this linear career path was, uh, slammed into a lot of our brains, especially people of my generation. And, um, you know, we have to unwind that in a way, because that was the familiar example. But right now it’s sort of like hopping from one lily pad to the other and those who can put those pieces together, uh, that could help you figure out your next, your next move.

Barb (00:40:24):
Yes. And in the meantime, what I recommend is start a freedom fund. You don’t know what the freedom is for, and it’s not even necessarily to live.

Brad (00:40:32):
So we’d go onto GoFund me and ask for a, the beginning of a freedom fund cause I hate my job. There you go.

Brad (00:40:39):
That’s one way. The way that I propose that you do it is whatever way you are earning an income, start a separate bank account and do an automatic debit every single month. And I’m really serious. Even if it’s $5.00 Give up, you know, something small and start a freedom fund for $5.00, But have it go in there automatically so that you’re not really even thinking about it. If you can raise it from five to $20,.00 then that’s great. If you can’t just stay with the $5.00, Because if this starts to shift your mindset around, what’s possible for this and that money doesn’t need to be for leaving something, but it could be an investing, something like education or learning related to what you want to do more of it could be about, um, starting a business, investing in something you believe in, whatever it may be, but whatever, you will find a way to use it, but to, to guard it with your life as your freedom fund,

Brad (00:41:35):
Right? We have the, a primal health coach operation, uh, and Mark Sisson’s quote on the homepage is “invest in yourself. That’s always been the best investment of my whole career.” And he’s a big entrepreneur and is invested in salad, dressing and restaurants and all that. But to take it back to that and realize, and I’ve, I speak to so many coaches who they jumped in there because they had a passion for living healthy and, and learning how to, uh, share that with others. Not, not necessarily a direct specific career goal because, um, you know, that that’s not the easiest thing is to, to like, like you said earlier in the show, maybe you don’t have all the pieces put together at the start, but if you can take that leap and it sounds like you do a ton of that, where you’re you hired a coach just to see how the coach client relationship worked, and I’m sure you got something out of it, but the first goal was to just to get in, get in deep into the, into the mix.

Barb (00:42:32):
Yes, absolutely. There’s a lot of ways to do research. You know, the other thing I did is I talked to a lot of people who were coaches and ask them really direct questions about what they loved and what they hated. And it wasn’t because the things that they hated, I also hated it was about trying on if someone else said, Oh, this is the part I don’t like about coaching, or I don’t like about being a business owner. I could then compare that to myself and say, well, how do I feel about those things? Does that fit for me better? And so, um, a lot of listening and learning out there too, and you know, I want to acknowledge that some of this sounds like maybe, you know, a piece of privilege that you do all this, but I really believe it can be done at any level.

Barb (00:43:14):
I mean, one of the things I’ve done is I’ve volunteered. I’ve done this for years at low income schools with kids who don’t have a lot of opportunities, unfortunately. But they are learning to write business plans and develop little micro businesses. And I would do speaking with them and the difference that it made for them to start to put their creative minds together and start to think beyond what they see in their world and what they think is possible. You know, so I, everyone can do this. I there, I can hear the, I could hear the chatter’s going. Yeah. Right. You know, you’re privileged or whatever, blah, blah, blah. But I really believe it can be done. It may not be fast. It may not be easy, but it can be done. And I’m just really a stand for that for people.

Brad (00:43:58):
Yeah. That’s nice. I think if we can separate the connotation of the entrepreneur and all that’s behind that and all how that’s all glorified. I mean, there’s a magazine with that name, with the picture of the guy, with the suit on the top. And if we can separate that idea from just, uh, discovering your passion and, you know, kind of expanding your, your notion of a career and making an economic contribution. I think that that seems like a, um, a good safe first step so that more people can be welcomed into the, uh, not to say umbrella again for the third time, but you know, welcomed into a different mindset.

Barb (00:44:37):
Yes. And, you know, I think the first step honestly, is getting clear. What many people want to do is they want to jump to the end result. They want to jump to what’s the final job title I’m supposed to have. Um, one of the things I tell my clients I work with is, you know, we’re going to be collecting pieces of the puzzle to put together. But what I want them to do is suspend their need to jump to what is the final result? Is it a business? Is it a job? What’s the name of it? What’s the title. Leave that to the side and slowly start collecting the pieces of the puzzle and watch the picture emerge. So you have to get clear yourself. You can’t skip over the steps, because if you just jump to the end, you know, you might pick something that’s obvious, but it really doesn’t fit you. And then you’re like, see that didn’t work. I should never have done this. And then you get to be right about that.

Brad (00:45:30):
So I like the puzzle idea where you’re, you’re collecting the borders first. Right. That’s easy. And then you’re making a frame and then you’re operating within that frame. But there’s so much, so much potential.

Barb (00:45:43):
And it’s like, you know, when you do a huge puzzle, you like, look for all the blue pieces and you put them together and you don’t even know what it is. Is it ocean? Is it sky? Is it something else? You know, you go for the brown pieces and you kind of group those together and you start to see the connection points between them. So it does take, I love the puzzle analogy because it’s like rising higher up to look from a big picture perspective. Most people want to go for the quick end result, tactical stuff. You gotta do the thinking and the investing and the exploration.

Brad (00:46:12):
So tell me how that works with a client. Are you doing entirely one-on-one engagements or are there other opportunities, uh, to, to get some support here, if you’re the individual looking for a career change?

Barb (00:46:25):
Yes. So I do work with one-on-one, that’s a large piece of my business. I also teach workshops around this topic, um, depending on the time of year and where I’m at, I used to do it in person. Now I’m doing more of that online, and I will give you a little hint. I haven’t actually said this out loud to any public places, but I’m working on a project where I’m actually putting this all into a self-paced course where you’ll be able to take yourself through the process with my support, where there’ll be probably about a six or seven week, um, classes, um, where you’ll get a big, big workbook with everything from exercises and what to do and when to do it and what steps. And then I’ll be guiding people in a, in a virtual class over the course of time. You know, I’m, I’m remaining a little bit flexible right now because of the state of our world. And when the right time is currently I’m, I am, um, slated to start to introduce that in September. So, um, when, when people are, you know, kind of through the summer and we’ll see where we’re at in the world with all of the things going on, but that’s, that is my hope. And I’m working on that because I do want to help more people. And even for those who can’t invest in individual coaching, private coaching, I want there to be more resources for people to be able to do that.

Brad (00:47:50):
Yeah, that sounds awesome. It sounds like it’s ready, made for online learning because so much of the work is upon the client anyway.

Barb (00:48:00):

Brad (00:48:01):
I mean, you can hold my hand a little bit, but then I have to create the worksheet and put the pieces together of all the, the chunks of color that have appeared in my, my career path.

Barb (00:48:11):
Yes, definitely. And one place, I recommend people start. I was going to tell you this at the end, but I’ll mention it here, which is I have a gift for your listeners. If people go to Monday morning, leap.com, Monday morning, leap.com, you can actually start the process. Now it’s completely free. What you basically get is a one to five minute video or audio that includes the most frequently asked career questions and a lot about what we’ve been talking about today. So it shows up in your inbox and the idea is it really gives you a jolt of energy for your week. And you can start thinking about some of the questions in the meantime for free.

Brad (00:48:51):
What do you mean the most five frequently asked career question?

Barb (00:48:55):
Not five, the most frequently asked career questions. So a lot of the things you’re asking me today, I would say are many frequently asked career questions. And so the, the content that I provide in the audios and the videos and the articles, it answers the questions that people ask me the most often, and really the ones that I think help people get to where they want to go based on our conversation today. It includes strategies, answers to questions, little steps you can take to start,

Brad (00:49:26):
Oh, fun. Uh, definitely we’ll promote that at free offer. Uh, so what about this inbox thing? Barb says your inbox will never be empty but your purpose can’t wait.

Barb (00:49:40):
I am really glad you noticed that one. So this is another story. My father passed away a few years. Well, more than a few years, about six or seven years ago. And he gave me one of the greatest gifts when, um, once we kind of healed a bit, my mom and I tackled his office. And one of the things that struck me was his to do list that had his own personal handwriting on it, on his desk, which, you know, it was emotional to see. But one of the things that struck me written on that list were some things he’d crossed off. And some things he hadn’t crossed off and a couple of them were send an email to so-and-so about such and such. And so I ended up taking on his email box, you know, lots of people that either didn’t know or things that were still coming in.

Barb (00:50:23):
And what struck me so strongly was he’s gone. And the flood of emails are still coming in and they’re not stopping. And I’m furiously responding to as many things as I can unsubscribing. It’s still coming in. And what hit me was we run our lives is if someday our email box is going to be empty. We literally live as if it was, if we’re going to finish our to do list and our inbox is going to be empty, and we’re just going to be sitting around with nothing to do. And that’s when we’re going to start living our real life, our purpose, our mission, the things we really care about. And I never thought of it that way until I had this experience, it really truly was one of the greatest lessons my dad ever taught me that came soon after his death. And it changed everything in terms of the way that I was chained to email. Cause I think that’s something a lot of people feel that day is never coming. Your inbox is never going to be empty. Even if you’re one of those people who shoots for that within five minutes, it’s not empty anymore.

Brad (00:51:27):
Oh, mercy. That’s a pretty heavy insight right there. I mean, if that doesn’t wake us up, I don’t know what we’ll, and I’m complaining about that all the time. Cause they, you know, the pull of the email inbox and the need to, uh, stay on top of things and be communicative as pretty strong for all of us. But boy, we got to manage that skillfully. Huh?

Barb (00:51:51):
Definitely. And when I work with clients individually, I teach a lot of tools on how to do that. But honestly, those tactics are not as important as getting your brain wrapped around this idea that we’re, we’re acting as if someday it’s going to be there. We’re going to be there. We’re going to be done. It’s going to be empty. Maybe, maybe, maybe we can get there, but that’s a complete illusion.

Brad (00:52:13):
So Barb, let’s say we’ve taken some great strides and launched in a new direction. Uh, and things get a little, uh, difficult. Uh, the road gets Rocky and we facing these checkpoints and forks in the road. Uh, how do you know the difference between something that you really should persevere through? Because you’re probably traveling on a road that’s more difficult than staying in your cubicle and putting in another 35 years so you can retire. Uh, how do you know the difference between that and the possibility that you might have gone down a road that’s a detour and it’s time for another leap and another jump and another, uh, reconciling and, uh, reckoning.

Barb (00:53:00):
Well, first I will say, I don’t believe that anything is a mistake. Nothing. I say that because no matter what choice we make, there are always tools for our toolbox that are being added. And when I look back on how I got to where I am today, there were so many things that I’ve done that I fought were like the worst job I ever had or something I would never do again or a lesson I learned. And I was banging my head against the wall. I look back and I see how those actually have contributed to, um, you know, being able to be a successful entrepreneur nor now. So I think that’s the first thing to recognize. There are no mistakes. Um, second of all, I think it requires some deep reflection and most people don’t do that deep reflection. They just go for the like immediate getting out of the pain.

Barb (00:53:45):
Um, and I think one of the ways that will help with that is to get some outside objective inputs. You know, ideally a coach. But if that’s not for you, you know, a, a trusted friend, a mentor, a colleague, um, you know, so that you can reflect your feelings of what you’re experiencing. And I think another tool is really, we have to listen to ourselves. And I say that I put my hand up here because it’s like an inner voice. That’s very quiet versus the brain voice that just bangs away. I call that brain bang. I think those decisions get made by listening to that quiet, inner voice about whether this really is right for us and whether we can continue and getting support with that is definitely ideal. If you can do it

Brad (00:54:33):
And, or go sit under a tree for three months and take a lot of naps and reflect.

Barb (00:54:37):
That’s right.

Brad (00:54:39):
Uh, but we have no time to do that because the text messages are dinging and the email inbox is filling up.

Barb (00:54:46):
Well, I, first of all, highly recommend everybody turn off all the dinging and binging all of it. Um, because otherwise you’re not in control of when you’re looking at that stuff. If you’re sitting at under the tree and you’re trying to hear your own voice, not taking your cell phone with you is a good call or at least turning it off. And then, you know, usually checking in with our partners or our kids are the only things that are really critical and, you know, tell them, you know what, I’m going to go out and sit under a tree for an hour. I will check in with you in an hour. So they know what to expect, and they’re not worried about you.

Brad (00:55:21):
Nice. Yeah. I had a guest on the show, Dr. Elisha Goldstein. He runs the Mindfulness Institute in LA speaking of LA. And he was giving some great insights about how to manage all this hyper-connectivity and constant stress. And one of them was to turn off all the dings and the alerts. And I was just listening and, uh, smugly, uh, congratulating myself for being superior in that category. Cause I turn off every single ding except for my phone ringing. And then he continues talking and he says, yeah, and those people that turn off all their dings and alerts, they have a tendency to reach for their phone more to see if anyone texted them because there’s no ding to show that it texted. And I think the, uh, the, the data is that we reach for our phone 150 times a day, which is, uh, I mean it could give you a wrist injury when you think about it. But I think developing that discipline as a key component of, of getting in touch with who you are and your truth and your passion. That’s great to throw that into the mix cause right now, man, we’re all too busy to even a pond or something, a uh, a higher ambition for our career.

Barb (00:56:27):
Yes. And you know, this is one of my hopes that this is part of what the quarantine around COVID is giving us is, is the simplifying of things and, and lowering the volume on the noise. And, you know, we were forced to stay home with the people that mean the most to us usually, or at least be in connection with the people that mean the most to us, whether it’s through, you know, the phone or Zoom calls or FaceTime or whatever. And, you know, I think, I mean, I’m talking a lot to my clients about this. It’s like, what, what really matters and what do you want to leave behind? Like when you exit your house out of the quarantine, I really want to invite people to be very intentional when they step over that threshold. Not to just go back to so called normal. In fact, I hope we don’t go back to normal related to that sort of mindless running from one thing to the next, without even thinking or breathing.

Brad (00:57:19):
Wow. Barb, that’s a really nice, I’m going to call that a beautiful summary message. Cause I feel the same. I feel like we’re, we got to stay positive and make the best of the massive life change. And, and, and I, my, my heart goes out to the, the economic destruction that has been a reality for so many people, but all that said, what are we going to do about it? What’s the future going to look like? And hopefully we can pull so many positive attributes out of this that will, uh, you know, especially get healthier. Uh, so yeah. Let me ask you one more, like when you’re in Boulder and do you see a lot of, uh, similar stories of expatriates from, uh, congested, urban areas, and you describe the energy in LA with the ice cube tray. So tell me about the energy out there and the, the, the city lauded as the healthiest and most hip place in the country. Austin, Texas is competing though. It’s a lot of, a lot of stuff happening down there too.

Barb (00:58:14):
Yeah, it’s true. Well, and also let me be clear. We used to live right in the heart of Boulder. Um, my husband and I actually moved right to the edge of the County because even Boulder is getting crowded and busy because it’s become such a tech hub. So, you know, we’re still like trying to inch away from that buzz. Um, but we, you know, it’s only 20 minutes away. And so, you know, we, we do go into Boulder a lot when we’re not in a quarantine. Um, yes, there’s definitely people that are doing that. One of the things that I like about it here, there’s so many, but there’s definitely an entrepreneurial spirit. And I don’t think, I know one person who has like a linear, traditional job, like meaning they’ve been in this job for 25 years, they’re moving forward, they’re going in order in a linear fashion.

Barb (00:59:02):
So, you know what you mentioned earlier about working in a job for 25 years and that being the most stable and all of that, you know, I think you and I might be the last generation to have been conditioned with that idea. Luckily, because I don’t really think it exists that much anymore. And I don’t say that as bad news. I actually think it’s good news because so many people, you know, of those generations, you know, they stayed in jobs, they were miserable in, um, and you know, then what life was over and, um, you know, for what a gold watch and a crappy little award thing. Right. And so you definitely see during the workweek here, people are everywhere. People are all out. And I, when we first moved here and I was like, what are these people doing? And then you realize so many of them are.

Barb (00:59:47):
Yeah. And I will tell you, you cannot go to a coffee shop here and not see everyone with a laptop at every single table. Like, it’s actually hard to get a spot at a table cause there’s so many remote workers and people who are entrepreneurs or, you know, they work in an outside thing like sales or something where they don’t have to be in the office. And I will tell you, I think, um, after the quarantine, uh, I don’t think I know our, our, our culture, our work culture is going to be going much more towards that kind of lifestyle. Even if you do work for a larger, more traditional company.

Brad (01:00:21):
Oh yeah. Larger traditional companies, like to save money on giant skyscraper buildings filled with people that can certainly do that at the coffee shop or at their, at their kitchen table. Maybe there’ll be like an entrepreneurial idea for a, you know, kitchen table, office, uh, transformations where we can, I see all the people, uh, you know, there, there’s not a proper home office yet, cause they’re not used to it, but Oh my gosh, what an opportunity, right? It’s your truth? It’s your calling?

Barb (01:00:52):
Yep. I’ve been actually talking to a lot of people about that. And, and in Boulder, like we have a lot of coworking spaces here, a lot for a town that’s pretty small. There’s a lot of that, which is a version of that. You know, I do think even that’s going to get adjusted to because being with people and keeping some distance and that kind of thing. Um, but you know, I think there’s a lot of benefits because supervisors and bosses are learning that, you know, people can work well and do well and contribute to the company without having to be, you know, sort of trapped in a cubicle. And they’re starting to trust people in a different way. And it’s also contributing to the joy and enjoyment of workers because they’re not commuting an hour and a half each way, which, you know, you know, from being from LA, that’s a very common thing. And, um, you know, the money savings of, you know, fancy offices, um, you know, the, the, the things that, you know, look good for, you know, clients that only get used once every week or two, you know, I think some of that’s going to go away and I hope my prayer honestly, is that it creates a better quality of life for workers to give them a little bit more time in their life, you know, for, for health. And self-reflection among other things.

Brad (01:02:03):
Love it. Barb Garrison, thank you so much. So we can go to Monday morning leap. Do you want to promote any other ways to connect with you and find out what this, what this is all about

Barb (01:02:14):
With Monday morning, leap.com. Cause that will help you connect with me. You’ll get invitations for certain. And that group will also get announcements about the product that I’m going to be releasing, um, in the fall about, um, really getting clear on what is the work you’re truly meant to do. So it’s the best place to start.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
Thanks for listening everybody. That’s a great show. Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to thanks for doing it.


(Breather) “Mindless positivity isn’t practical or helpful for most people,” Mark Manson writes in his first book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving A F*ck. He is, as usual, right on with this observation. Realizing that, “our modern, and maddening, urge to always find happiness only serves to make us unhappier,” Manson communicates clearly and concisely throughout his books about why we need to change the way we look at things like personal identity, hope, shame, and happiness.

The reason why Manson’s message works so well is not just the power of the message itself, but the fact that, instead of trying to push the power of positivity onto his readers, he offers an entirely new perspective ― what if everything you thought you knew about happiness and success and yourself was wrong? And what if that was actually a good thing?

Here’s the thing: as humans, we are all naturally inclined to feel attached to various parts of ourselves, especially the parts of ourselves that receive praise. Whether you’re a standout student or worker, an amazing athlete, a math genius, or a truly great dancer, it’s important to not fixate on the things about ourselves that we identify with the most. Why? Because Manson argues that identity is an arbitrary facade. He suggests looking at your life as a series of decisions and actions and try to maintain an identity that is defined by as little as possible.

Our emotional feeling brain actually rules over our rational, thinking brain. Yet we think, or pretend, that the opposite is true! According to Manson, emotions drive our consciousness, and it is emotion only that can motivate us into action. “Emotions convince your thinking brain that you’re right,” Manson says. When emotions rule over the thinking brain, it can lead to narcissism, addiction, compulsion, self-righteous anger, and so on. This is because a person ruled by their emotions has no independent thought, so they only pursue things that bring them instant gratification. Ultimately the goal is not to suppress your emotional brain, but to get your thinking brain connected to your emotional brain. Manson says do not try to suppress your emotions, but instead, try to convince your feeling brain that you will benefit from whatever decision that you are asking yourself about. A good example of this is when people often fail to succeed with lifestyle changes ― this is because our “feeling brain” feels like we don’t deserve the success.

Which leads us to self-worth. “Our self-worth is the sum of our emotions over time. If we can’t equalize, we accept inferiority, shame, and low self-worth,” Manson writes. Interestingly, both high and low self-worth are narcissistic, and self-worth is also an illusion. I know a thing or two about tying your accomplishments and/or abilities to your self-worth, so here’s a funny story from my college days: One day, the lockers got totally looted, so I had no choice but to jog home down a busy boulevard, for a mile and a half….in nothing but a Speedo and swimming goggles (and no shoes!). This was only one day after being the champion of a big tournament ― talk about being taken down a peg!

“Your identity will stay your identity until an event changes it,” Manson writes. “It’s a network of value-based narratives that determines our identity.” There are two ways to heal from this:

  • Examine the narratives of your life, and reposition them.
  • Visualize the future you want for yourself, and make that your new identity.

Let the feeling brain “try on” your new identity so it can become accustomed to it. This can be difficult, because it signifies that you’re really ready to change. “The stories of our future define our hopes, and the stories of our past define our identity” Manson notes, and he advises we take a look at both of those, so we can straighten them out, and get them right! Catch up with my recent interview with man himself, Mark Manson, here and if you haven’t yet read his books, check out The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck and Everything Is F*cked: A Book About Hope.


It doesn’t work to try to be constantly happy. [04:11]

Carefully choose what you give a fuck about and then reject the social pressures.  [07:06]

Identity doesn’t exist.  It is arbitrary. It is a façade. [08:14]

Some of the chapter titles of this book are intriguing: Don’t Try, Happiness is a Problem, You are Not Special, etc. [10:37]

If you don’t have hope, you are basically headed toward depression and anxiety. [11:14]

A quick history of the 20th century gives an idea of what many people have lived through and helps put things in perspective. [13:37]

When life gets too comfortable, we have to pick a cause to worry about to give us meaning. [16:18]

Our emotional feeling brain actually rules over the rational thinking brain. [17:42]

The history of humanity features a major effort to conquer the emotional feeling brain with self-control. [19:50]

There’s a common notion in spiritual psychology that the affluence and love we achieve in life equates to our level of self -worth. [24:04]

Every emotional reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. [25:11]

Both high and low self-worth are narcissistic because they imagine themselves as something special. [27:25]

Your identity will stay your identity until an event changes it. [29:52]



  • “Struggle gives richness to life.” – Roger Bannister
  • “Our modern and maddening urge to always find happiness only serves to make us unhappier.” – Mark Manson


Download Episode MP3

Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (04:11):
Hey listeners. I hope you love. Love. Love my show with the super cool dude. Mark Manson, mega bestselling author of the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck and his sequel book, Everything is Fucked. A book about hope and look at all the people that copied his spicy title from several years ago when, uh, the first book launched and now, Oh my gosh, we’re all about the getting unfucked, being confident is fucked. Uh, but he started it all. And I wanted to share some summary insights from the content of the book that will give you some practical advice right away, but also inspire you to dig in and read, uh, this great work from this young author that’s gone into extreme popularity. And I think he’s one of the great philosophers of modern times putting a lot of, uh, history and, uh, referencing the great minds of the past, into the unique circumstances of daily life. So the first book, the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck is kind of a reaction to the self help industry. And what Manson saw is a culture of mindless positivity that isn’t practical or helpful for most people. This is a quote from a book description, and then my own insights will be sprinkled in throughout this breather show. Manson uses many of his own personal experiences to illustrate how life’s struggles often give it more meaning, which he argues is a better approach than constantly trying to be happy.

Brad (05:42):
So we have that distinction that other philosophers have shared with us as well, uh, between being trying to constantly be happy and positive and carry through this disposition that might not as valid or authentic as, uh, persevering through struggle and appreciating struggle, uh, as one of the great areas of richness in life. Uh, I like to quote Roger Banister, the first sub four minute miler the late Sir Roger Bannister. Um, and he, uh, wrote a wonderful book about his running career that was published back in the fifties when he was still a young man and had retired and pursue into a pursuit of a career in medicine. And he said, struggle gives meaning and richness to life. And of course he was talking about his, uh, athletic pursuits and striving to break the magical sub four minute mile barrier and compete in the Olympics world, world level events. sut to have that compelling goal of trying to be his best in the athletic realm, and then applying that mindset, that mentality to all other goals that you face in life, whether it’s relationship goals, being a parent, uh, staying fit and healthy, uh, controlling the wayward, uh, negative thoughts and ruminations and FOMO that we suffer from in today’s culture.

Brad (07:06):
You know, finding something that’s meaningful to struggle for is a great insight that came out of, Manson’s book. And then of course the title of the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck really means this subtle art of choosing very carefully to choose what you give a fuck about. And then kind of rejecting a lot of the, uh, societal pressures and forces that, uh, measure and judge us and kind of draw us into those, uh, horrible disease states like FOMO. So back to the written description. Manson’s approach and writing style had been categorized by some as contrarian to the general self help industry using blunt honesty and profanity to illustrate his ideas, our modern and maddening urge to always find happiness only serves to make us unhappier. Instead, The Subtle Art, uh, turned out. It turns out to be a bold challenge to choose your struggles and to narrow and focus and find the pain that you want to sustain the positive aspects of having a life of rich, meaningful struggles.

Brad (08:14):
Okay. A few more details about the theme in the book, a Manson argues that identity doesn’t exist. It’s arbitrary, it’s a facade quote, maintain an identity that is defined by as little as possible instead see your life as a series of decisions and actions. And he gives the example of someone wishing they could be better about their commitment to fitness, working out, going to the gym and the shift from being a person who’s lazy and non committed to becoming a fitness enthusiast is more difficult because you’re attaching your identity to various things in life. And by doing so, the stakes are higher.

Brad (09:05):
You get discouraged, you get negative, and then you tail spin away from your, uh, best intentions to, uh, become a different person, become a better person. Now, if you instead just saw your life as a series of decisions and actions, and weren’t wedded to the outcome in the way that you are, when you form your identity around being a lawyer or being a school teacher or being the president of the, uh, neighborhood, uh, society, all these things that we, uh, get our egos involved with and then are less effective and set ourselves up for more pain, suffering, disappointment, and failure to achieve, uh, tangible goals instead see your life as a series of decisions and actions. So you wake up one day and you say, ah, I’m going to decide to go to the gym. Uh, the stakes are more reasonable and you can, uh, just take action and kind of cruise along without the emotional baggage that often comes when our identity is attached to, uh, the things that we do. So this is kind of in line with his, uh, overarching theme of, uh, choosing what to give a fuck about, and then, uh, not worrying about the rest, being precise on what you choose to give a fuck about. Uh, here’s some chapter titles to intrigue you to grab this, uh, mega bestselling book that was just off the charts with, uh, record-breaking numbers of sales and translations around the world.

Brad (10:37):
So chapter One is called Don’t Try. Chapter Two is Happiness is a Problem. Three: You Are Not Special. Four: The Value of Suffering. Five: You are Always Choosing. Six: You are Wrong About Everything, (but so am I). Seven: Failure is the Way Forward. Eight: The Importance of Saying No. Nine: And Then You Die. So I thought I would recite the chapter titles because they’re clever and they give you a little bit of insight, hopefully with my description, helping as well, uh, as to what the book’s all about and the message they’re conveying.

Brad (11:14):
Okay. So then the, uh, the most recent book, Everything is Fucked. A Book about Hope, uh, took a little bit more notes cause I wanted to share that one, cause it’s probably less, uh, less popular at this point than the crazy first book. But if you love the first book definitely grabbed the second book and it really drew me in, I refer to these concepts often to help navigate the wild times of modern life. I want my kids to read it, good stuff. So in this book, Manson looks at our relationships with money entertainment and the internet, how too much of a good thing can eat us alive. He openly defies our definitions of faith, happiness, freedom, and even hope itself. So the idea of this book, a book about hope is that you want to create a quote string of hope narratives as your defining purpose in life.

Brad (12:13):
If you don’t have hope, you are basically headed toward depression and anxiety. So all the things that we do, all the things that we care about sort of emanate from hope is the wonderful point that he makes persuasively in the book. And here’s the thing about today’s world, uh, by many, uh, practical measurements, uh, life is better today than any other time in the history of humanity. We have a more sustained period of peace. There’s no world Wars. There’s not a ton of minor conflicts. Of course there’s always something going on, but by comparison today’s world is better than ever, uh, compared to the middle ages compared to the, our, our grandparents and great grandparents generations. Mark Bell put this incredible, uh, post up on Instagram. And I’m going to read some of that too. Uh, just to give you a little bit of context when the argument that Manson advances that today’s better than ever, uh, falls flat because you don’t like our president or you think that North Korea is going to launch the bombs any moment, all those things might be relevant, but whew, compared to a generations ago, yeah, we’ve really managed to progress as a, as a global society, despite all the things that still have a needs to improve Mark by them.

Brad (13:37):
So go look at the great Instagram site of Mark Smelly Bell. Uh, my main man, the meathead millionaire, a leader in the fitness community. He’s got a lot of great posts on there. And in this one, he’s, uh, posting a picture of some really distressed looking, uh, refugees, all young children emaciated, starving, dressed in tatters. And, uh, the title of the post is perspective. Imagine you were an American born in 1900. That’s the exact year my grandfather was born. And so this was his life. Uh, that’s me talking. And then back to Mark Bell’s post, when you’re 14 World War I starts and ends on your 18th birthday, 22 million people killed later in the year of Spanish flu pandemic hits the planet and runs until you’re age 20. 50 million people die in two years. Then when you’re 29, the great depression begins.

Brad (14:32):
Unemployment hits 25%. global GDP drops 27%. And this runs until you’re age 33, the country nearly collapses along with the world economy. Then when you turn 39 World War II starts. When you’re 41, the United States is fully involved in World War II. And between your 39th and 45th birthday, 75 million people perished in the war. The Holocaust kills 6 million. At age 52, the Korean war starts and 5 million people perish when you’re 64 years old, the Vietnam war begins. It doesn’t end for many years, 4 million people die in that conflict. Then at your 62nd birthday, you have the Cuban missile crisis, a tipping point in the cold war life on the planet. As we know it could well have ended. Great leaders prevented that from happening. Then when you’re 75, the Vietnam war finally ends. Think of everyone on the planet born in 1900. How do you survive all of that?

Brad (15:31):
A kid in 1985, didn’t think their 85 year old grandparent understood how hard school was yet. Those grandparents and great grandparents survived through everything listed above perspective is an amazing art. Let’s try to keep things in perspective. This was written during the time of the quarantine, social isolation, the economy struggling accordingly. But if we can keep things in perspective, let’s be smart. Try to help each other out. And we’ll get through all this in the history of the world. There has never been a storm that lasted and this too shall pass. That’s Mark Bell on Instagram. And back to Mark Manson’s argument that this is a better time in the world than ever before. Here’s the thing. We have something called a paradox of progress.

Brad (16:18):
Life gets too easy, too comfortable. And when that happens, we have to pick a cause to worry about, to give us meaning. John Gray mentioned this in my show with him. He said that affluent couples have a higher rate of marital conflict because they have the time and energy to worry about nitpicky relationship issues rather than just, you know, fighting the battle together to make ends meet and to pay the rent at their apartment. So, yeah, interesting perspective that we kind of trend toward drama conflict in our lives when things get easy. So to create a string of hope narratives, this goal, to become our defining purpose in life, what do we need for hope? First, a sense of control. Second, believing in and valuing something. And third, a sense of community. So think about that and apply that to the things that you care about. Your sense of community is a huge one. Believing in caring about something, valuing something. I’m thinking of like fitness goals and people that are members of CrossFit community, or endurance training teams, and have that amazing connection of people, uh, working toward a common goal that’s challenging, involves struggle and giving meaning and richness to life like Roger Banister said.

Brad (17:42):
So then Manson gets into this really interesting argument that our emotional feeling brain actually rules over the rational thinking brain. But because we have this rational thinking brain, the thinking brain concludes that it’s the one in charge of the show. We pretend that the rational thinking brain rules over the emotional brain, but it’s actually not true. We’re taught to suppress our emotions, but this too is a fallacy. When you suppress your emotions, that’s getting a lobotomy. So the emotions are always there. And Manson argues that emotions drive our consciousness. Only emotion motivates us to action, not rational conclusions of which car we’re going to buy because it got better ratings on consumer reports. That is the illusion. It’s the emotions that trigger these purchasing decisions and a good example, or also summoning, the motivation to get off the couch and get into the gym and get in shape.

Brad (18:46):
So since only emotion motivates us to action, we need to get buy in from our emotional brain in order to take action toward a goal emotions, convince your thinking brain that you’re right. This is the essence of self-serving bias or confirmation bias right here. Emotions convincing your thinking brain that you’re right, this kind of behavior where the emotions are ruling over the thinking brain leads to huh? Not so many good things, huh? Can you guess it leads to narcissism, addiction, compulsion, self righteous anger, and so on a person ruled by emotions has no independent thought and only pursues instant gratification. So the idea, the goal here is to get your thinking brain connected with your emotional brain, not to suppress your emotions or steam, roll them with your powerful intellect that knows everything, what to do. And you don’t have to listen to your emotions.

Brad (19:50):
No. The history of humanity features a major effort to conquer the emotional feeling brain with self-control. So we’ve known this for a long time that we have to not let our emotions rule our behavior, right? Otherwise we get narcissism addiction, compulsion, self righteous anger. And so how have we tried this throughout the history of humanity? Yes. Religion is the big one, right? Suppress your emotions, suppress your instincts. Follow the rules, go to confession if you stray a little bit. He also references cultism as an extreme example of trying to conquer the emotional feeling brain that’s actually in control with self-controlling guidelines. Okay. So what happened in the 20th century was this awakening occurred and people rebelled against the long time centuries, old self control mechanisms in society like religious doctrine. And they began to express their emotions and passions. We had the rebellious decades of the sixties and the freedom of the seventies, right?

Brad (20:57):
Uh, here’s Manson making the argument that, uh, when you swing the pendulum too far in the other direction, the emotional feeling brain starts to run amok again. Right? So on the two edges of the continuum, we have the emotionally driven human delving into narcissism addiction, compulsive, and self righteous anger. And then on the other end of the spectrum, we have the, uh, controlled, suppressed think about the gender roles that John Gray talked about a little bit, where we have the male breadwinner who comes home, pops open a beer and gets waited on by the dutiful female partner. Who’s supposed to be a barefoot in the kitchen, making food and making babies, right? All that kind of nonsense that we’ve had to grow through, uh, in recent decades. Geez. How about the suppression of one’s sexuality? He can’t get any deeper of a suppression than that.

Brad (21:53):
And the great giant religious bodies and political bodies trying to strong arm people into that deep of a emotional suppression hole. So we have that end of the spectrum. And then we have a today’s common problem since the pendulum has swung away from all that nonsense. But then we get today’s stereotypical, affluent entitled, spoiled millennial or spoiled adult. And let’s not pick on the millennials, right? Uh, these kind of the narcissism that’s running amok. So this solution get your thinking brain connected with your feeling brain when pondering logical life decisions, ask your feeling brain to weigh in. Weigh all logical decisions by asking yourself how you feel about whatever consequence quitting your job, moving to a new city, getting involved in a relationship, severing a relationship, and assess the emotional answer without judgment. Don’t try to suppress your emotions. You need to convince your feeling brain, that you’ll benefit from whatever decision you’re asking yourself about you need buy in from the feeling brain.

Brad (23:07):
The reason we don’t succeed with lifestyle change is our feeling brain feels like we don’t deserve the success. And we get stuck in a repeating pattern of suffering that comes from past programming. I got into this a little bit with Luke Story in that great, uh, discussion near the end of our interview when he was talking about the, uh, manifestation of a wealth of your dreams and how we commonly misinterpret that to think that, uh, we try to manifest wealth so that we can be happy. And he says, no, you have to come from a position of gratitude and then see yourself into with great specificity the life that you dream about. So that’s kind of convincing your feeling brain that it will benefit from rather than deep down feeling undeserving of happiness, wealth, peace of mind, contentment, a life well lived.

Brad (24:04):
Don’t pass this stuff off as silly. There’s a common notion in spiritual psychology that the affluence and love we achieve in life equates to our level of self worth. In his book, The Big Leap, psychologist, Gay Hendricks advances, the compelling argument that we bump up against what he calls an upper limit in life. And this is described in Hendrick’s words as quote, it’s an inner thermostat setting that determines how much love success and creativity we allow ourselves to enjoy. The thermostat setting usually gets programmed in early childhood. Once programmed our upper limit thermostat setting holds us back from enjoying all the love, financial abundance and creativity. That’s rightfully ours end quote. Whew! Okay. So get that feeling brain to buy in, right? Just like the scenes in the movies. Yeah, I deserve it. That sounds good. All right, let’s do this. Okay. So otherwise you get stuck in patterns of past programming and suffering.

Brad (25:11):
So Manson has a clever device where he’s talking about, uh, Isaac Newton’s laws of gravity. And then because we’re talking about the emotional brain, he talks a lot about the amazing life of Isaac Newton. And, um, he draws in this new idea of Newton’s laws of emotion, of course, that he made up to kind of counterbalance the, uh, the rational brain, the thinking brain and all the great work that Newton did, but he had a rough life. And it was very interesting story, but he’d come up with this concept of Newton’s laws of emotion. Here’s the first one, every emotional reaction has an equal and opposite reaction. If it doesn’t, we develop what’s called a moral gap. So if you can think about being bullied as a child in middle school and, uh, suffering these intense, painful emotions, but not able to fight back or lash back at the bullies, that’s the nature of bullying, right?

Brad (26:09):
Then the equal and opposite emotional reaction is going to be a suppression, uh, that leads to low self esteem and continued pain and suffering throughout life. Okay. So when you have a chance to equalize an emotional reaction with a corresponding emotional reaction, then you don’t have that moral gap. And this could be another example could be a passive aggressive dynamic where there’s a conflict and then the equal and opposite emotional reaction comes in the form of passive rather than going toe to toe in a more, a classic example of a conflict. The next law of emotion is our self worth is the sum of our emotions over time. If we can’t equalize, like I discussed with the bully example, we accept inferiority shame and low self worth. I’m thinking of the great work of Berne Brown, talking about the sources of shame and how to get through that kind of challenge here, where we’re you know, adding up the, some of our emotional experiences and then forming a negative self image because of the moral gap, because we didn’t, uh, you know, fully processed these emotions.

Brad (27:25):
Oh, guess what? The flip side is diluted high self worth. Both high and low self worth are narcissistic because they imagine themselves as something special, something separate from the world. So I remember going back to the first book of identities and illusion, self worth is also an illusion. And if you Harbor self-worth, if you cultivate self worth self worth, then you should get a dog. Woof, woof, okay. Self worth. If you are trafficking in self worth, this is a form of persistent low level narcissism, right? Make sense? Hey, I was an athlete. I was pretty caught up and, uh, the importance of my pursuits as a competitive triathlete. And at times making it very easy to attach self worth to what place I got in the most recent race, right? You’re on a winning streak, you get some diluted high self worth, and then you’re on a losing streak and you get delusional, low self worth, both are narcissistic because they imagine themselves as something special, something separate from the world.

Brad (28:43):
And one of my favorite examples of getting recalibrated from a potentially diluted high self worth was the day after I won this big race on the professional triathlon circuit. And then I jogged over to the swimming pool to do a workout feeling pretty good about myself, getting a little stretch in for the muscles after the great performance the previous day. And I got out of the pool and went to my locker at Pierce College in Woodland Hills, California. And everything was stolen. The, the locker was looted. So my shoes, my clothes, my expensive sunglasses, thankfully sponsor gave them to me. Remember, I just want a big race. And so I had to jog home about a mile and a half on a busy Boulevard wearing a Speedo. And of course my goggles barefoot. And so that was getting taken down from being the champ the day before and give it a nice victory speech to the adoring crowd at the triathlon gathering. Whoever stole the stuff out of my locker, didn’t give a crap about who won the race the day before and there I was getting looked at by passing cars jogging along in a Speedo.

Brad (29:52):
Oh yeah. Okay. so that was the second law of emotion. Our self worth is a sum of our emotions over time. And if we can’t equalize, we accept inferiority shame and low self worth. Finally, the third one, your identity will stay your identity until an event changes. It’s a network of value based narratives that determines our identity. So there’s two ways to heal. First, examine the narratives of your life and reposition them. Second, visualize the future that you want for yourself and make that your new identity. Okay. That’s pretty awesome. Pretty simple. The first one, right? Go back and process things and realize just because you were bullied in middle school, doesn’t mean you have to accept inferiority, shame and low self worth today. Second, visualize the future that you want for yourself. Single people visualize the ideal relationship. My recent podcast guest Dude Spellings did an exercise with his girlfriend to write out their view of an ideal partner and then share it with each other what great stuff.

Brad (31:03):
So visualize the future you want and make that your new identity. Let the feeling brain, try it on and become accustomed to it. Hey, you know what? This could be a difficult exercise, Manson says, because if you’re going to do it, that means you really are ready to change. And the stories of our future define our hopes, the stories of our past define our identity. And let’s take a look at both of those and get them right. Get them straight. It’s a book about hope after all. I hope you enjoyed this little summary and will intrigue you to go get the audio book narrated by the author himself or the written book. Great stuff. Thank you so much, Mark Manson for taking the time to join me on the podcast and get that great interview out there. So please go listen to the interview if you haven’t already. Thanks for listening to the breather show. Yeah, you can find Mark Manson on Instagram. He published his great quotes every day and all over the place. Of course the books are everywhere and they have a two book package you can get on. Amazon of Everything is Fucked. A book about hope and the The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. So go grab it. Have a great day. Thanks for listening. Bye.

Brad (32:15):
Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts.I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves cause they need to thanks for doing it.


Host Brad Kearns welcomes Luke Shanahan for the momentous occasion of unveiling the true identity of the bestselling book, The God Academy: A Master Class In The Power of Attraction, by Angelica Crystal Powers. ACP is in fact a pseudonym, and the true author of this Amazon.com classic is Luke himself!

This book was written as a satire of the bestselling book The Secret, about the law of attraction. But if you flip through the pages just a bit, you will quickly realize that there are some powerful life lessons offered by Luke ― ideas like how your behaviors have a ripple effect on the entire world. For example, Luke mentions that every day our choice of words can either generate pride or shame in our loved ones. We can take things for granted and miss out on some of the precious simple pleasures of life, or we can jump to gratitude with a quick thought exercise, or by taking inspiration from those who have experienced setbacks and persevered.

In this interview, Luke touches on numerous aspects of the book content, but the discussion is framed by the circumstances of the day, namely the global COVID-19 pandemic and the social distancing obligation. Luke discusses how we live our lives like a movie, injecting drama, and conflict to keep the plot interesting. He talks about how we grossly distort and misinterpret the law of attraction to believe we can call in our dream man or a big house to make us finally happy. Only when you live in gratitude for your present circumstances are you able to unlock the power of attraction. This is a wide-ranging discussion that will really get you thinking about the big questions of life, if not the classic movie Groundhog Day.


This is a period of transition we can learn from. Keep the community mindset. [04:36]

Security in your life is an illusion. [09:55]

People learning a way of thinking with gratitude are more fulfilled. [14:36]

If an event it’s going to happen, we perceive it in one way. And then when we look back and with hindsight, we perceive in an entirely different way and in a more accurate way, because now we actually see what the heck things were. [19:08]

The power we have in the world is completely underestimated. [19:53]

Brad and Luke role play how one’s words can be so powerful. [24:36]

When people give you that unfiltered scoop, you can process and appreciate it. Or you can choose to disagree. [27:09]

What is wrong with a committee? Not necessarily the best idea will immerge. [30:19]

The toxic person in your life is there to teach you a lesson. [32:06]

Movies are stories that mimic real life with reversals, conflict, hope, and success. [34:16]

Ninety-five percent of the time we are operating from flawed subconscious programming. (Bruce Lipton) [44:13]

Luke describes the premise of his book, The God Academy. Every thought you have is a prayer. [46:15]

Every little thing that you do has a massive impact on the entire world a year from now. [50:33]



  • “Move in faith, move with love, do your best. And that’s it.” (Luke Shanahan)


Download Episode MP3

Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (00:04:28):
Luke Shanahan is back and it’s about time. We got a lot to talk about, man, how’s it going over there?

Luke (00:04:36):
I’ll tell you what, it’s, it’s crazy here as it is anywhere else. I think it’s, first of all, great, you know, Florida’s already a little bit nutty. Um, we’ve got alligators that wander up into the backyard. Um, but yeah, everyone’s spinning out of control as usual, but, uh, so far, uh, you know, Cate’s been able to usher people through, uh, you know, this COVID stuff. And she’s been explaining to me sort of the ins and outs of the science of it and all that, but uh, strange times. So we were thinking right, you and me, that would be a good time to talk about being in a period of transition and what, you know, you can do to, to make the most use of it, to use it as a plot point to spend you into a better trajectory than you were before. And we’re all in this together. Once Kobe Bryant fell out of the sky, you know, I think that was a message from the universe that, uh, Hey, guess what?

Luke (00:05:31):
Let’s not forget. All things are possible. Crazy things can happen. And yeah, that was just the, the, the overture to this craziness. So I think it was a good time to talk about working on what we can work on. And as we’re, you know, we’re, most of us are locked, locked at home with our partners and with their families and because of stresses and economic stresses and everything else possibly at one another’s throats more than we would like to be. So we thought, right, Brad, we thought it was be a good time to talk about some of that stuff. Yeah.

Brad (00:06:03):
Yeah. I hope no one’s at each other’s throats and I hope we’re, uh, looking on the bright side and trying to, I did a little, a breather show about the positive aspects of the quarantine and the social isolation, because I feel like there’s some, uh, some things in my life that are, uh, improved or going better. And one of them is my mindset where anytime I have the slightest inclination to complain about something, I force myself to jump over to a gratitude position, just like you’re instructed to in the books and the podcasts and people talking about this, but so much easier said than done. Yeah. Oh, we’re going to talk about The God Academy momentous occasion here, when we reveal the true, the true author of that fabulous book.

Luke (00:06:50):
Oh, that’s right. We’re revealing that for the first time ever on this podcast, by the way, because up til now people have presumed because it says right on the book it’s written by Angelica Crystal Powers. Here’s the book and here’s Angelica. Well, guess what, everybody, I am Angelica Crystal Powers.

Brad (00:07:09):
So this has been a Luke’s top secret bestselling book on Amazon. It’s been available for many years. Uh, but now we’re going to highlight it and talk about, I think the, um, the, the intro you gave there, that nice intro. I think a lot of that’s covered in the book, so we can kind of make this a, a personal growth and, uh, adjusting to strange times podcast session. Um, and like I was saying, um, you know, I’m forcing myself to be grateful for, uh, all the good things about this. And, um, instead of whining and complaining that my, uh, my spring break has ruined as the, the Florida partiers, who, who went viral with that, uh, that video clip where they’re, you know, they’re, they’re bent out of shape. Cause some stuff has closed while they, they came to party. Yeah.

Brad (00:08:00):
And, uh, you know, the hoarding shopping, I’m not participating as of yet. And my dream is that someday I’m going to walk into Costco and be able to grab a set of paper towels because everyone’s already hoarded. And then thinking about like, if no one had hoarded to begin with, Costco’s never out of paper towels, they’ve never in history, been out of paper towels, so why are they out now? It’s like, let’s, you know, let’s keep that community mindset, uh, you know, going so that we’re, you know, we’re not engaging in this, you know, strange, um, uh, adverse human behavior. And I have to, uh, admit myself, Luke, that at the start of this, when the news reports were coming through, uh, Mia Moore and I were on a, uh, a wild vacation where we were going to basketball games and Vegas and magic show and concerts in, uh, Nashville with a real estate conference and, uh, walking around on Bourbon Street, checking it out, all these partiers.

Brad (00:08:56):
And I had no direct connection to the severity of what was coming, even though the news reports were hinting at that. Cause I had this sort of, um, uh, I guess it was a, uh, self-absorbed mindset where I figured like I’m not going to get hit by some virus. That’s, that’s taking down old people cause I’m too healthy and my lungs are strong, but I failed to make that connection of how my behavior can put others at risk until we all agree to, uh, to quarantine on behalf of the people who are most vulnerable. I think Governor Cuomo said it best in New York. He said, you know, we’re shutting the economy down for the most vulnerable 1% and that’s a big deal, but it’s your grandma and your mother and my mom and your grandfather, and that’s why we’re doing it. And it’s the right thing to do. And I think that’s a good wake up call for everybody to, to realize that, you know, when it comes to a pandemic, it’s a good way to, uh, show how connected we are and how our behavior affects others.

Luke (00:09:55):
Yeah. It’s funny. I, for, for reasons I talk about like being in the dark, but there’s just seemed to be an electricity in the air. I think since, you know, Kobe’s you know, on timely and sad death, which, you know, I know he was, what does it hit me? You’re a super fan. You could say,

Brad (00:10:14):
well, you guys had that personal connection to him. And I can’t imagine, um, you know, the, the level of that tragedy and it hit me really hard. I mean, uh, it’s something that, you know, with my son going through the basketball years and he was such a hero and represented so many things. And, um, at the time the text message came onto my phone. I was talking with Dave Rossi, former podcast guest, and you know, he, he’s got his book, The Imperative Habit talking about not taking things for granted and, um, you know, being grateful for the present time and all that. And his comment to me when the news came to us and we were driving in a car, he says, well, there’s a guy who was almost positive. He had as much financial security as anyone could ever imagine. He was, he was completely secure in every way until he wasn’t.

Brad (00:11:07):
And he was making that point before the text message came in, that security is an illusion, even financial security, relationship, security, all these things that we, we count on to, to collect our, uh, our, our, our assets and our things that we have going for us could be taken away at any time. And so we sure as heck better appreciate the present. And man, that was a, that was a tough way to get the message, uh, with, you know, an icon being able to be taken down like that. But time to move on just like his wife did such a great job giving that presentation in public and being so brave and strong. And yep. She’s got to go on and raise a three, some little kids. So,

Luke (00:11:46):
and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an extraordinary thing, but it’s absolutely true. There’s the misspeaking of gratitude I was, I’ve been giving. I think we’ve all been to some extent, but I’ll tell you for me personally, I’ve been going through a massive learning curve over this past couple of months, about a lot of stuff. And about a month and a half before any of this started, I just notice that this book, well, Angelica Crystal Powers wrote called The God Academy, which I actually wrote. I didn’t have a copy. I said, I wonder, you know, it’s been a long time since I’ve opened that book. It’s been two years, you know, so, uh, I ordered a copy and it showed up and I started leafing through. And then pretty much two days after it arrived, all this nightmare stuff, you know, in terms of the virus and then the economic downturn, you know, which hit us as hard as anybody just like anybody else, we’re all in this together.

Luke (00:12:35):
But, um, you know, I started leafing through and in case said, why don’t you just open to a random page? And I just started reading. And every time it was like, where has this book been my whole life and I thought, Oh, wait a second. I wrote it. But it was a good reminder of things. Like, you know, you brought up gratitude and, and how you said you were walking around a little bit with your, with your head in the sky about I’m not going to get this virus. Mmm. The first thoughts I was getting about the virus were selfish ones. I hope we don’t get sick. Uh, gee, I hope we don’t lose, you know, all our money and camp, you know, can never retire and all that. And thinking about quality of life being reduced for, for me and, and mine. And instead, you know, my first thought should have been wow.

Luke (00:13:24):
How, what, what’s, what it must be like to be a restaurant owner right now, or, you know, wow. I hope that, you know, people who are really immune immunocompromised, you know, are going to be okay through this. And then the, and then in terms of finances, it shouldn’t have been like, you know, wow. Think of all the stuff we’re not going to be able to get and all this it should have been, Hey, I hope, I hope that this prompts me to be more influential, not less influential. Cause that’s, that’s where the riches are. That’s where all the riches are. Wouldn’t you agree? It’s in your abilities to influence in a good way and improve everyone else’s life. That’s where the money is. How money plays a role into that. Whether you have, or do you don’t, you won’t know until you’re right in the midst of it 10 years from now and you look back and go, I’ll be damned.

Luke (00:14:09):
You know, the story that I was meant to tell the narrative that God or the universe wanted me to tell the place that I was supposed to play is exactly as it should have been. So yeah. You remember back when we were in, um, in Tulum, Mexico, right? I did a presentation there. You did a bunch of presentations, which all went really well. And I, and back then I had a bruised foot that had really gotten me down. You remember that?

Brad (00:14:35):
Yeah. Yeah.

Luke (00:14:36):
Well, about two months after coming out, down here to Florida, I was going paddle boarding. And as I was stepping on the board, there was about a six foot alligator right there. And to avoid it, I tried not to, I didn’t want to hurt it. And, uh, I stepped on a branch and now I’ve got the same injury on my foot again, which is slowly healing, you know, takes a long time. But what you were mentioning about, you know, the tragedy, uh, you know, with Kobe Bryant, but any, any tragedy and how it is a necessary component of gratitude. I mean, wouldn’t it be great? You know, if we could, if we could have the ability, if we could expand our imaginations enough where we could say my legs feel okay, my feet feel okay, my hips don’t hurt. Like crazy. I can move. I can swim. I can draw. I’m so lucky. I’m one of the people that can draw, you know, how many people can’t yeah. People who lose the use of their legs. They say, w what do you miss? And you expect them to say running through a field. What do you think they typically say?

Brad (00:15:43):
I don’t know.

Luke (00:15:44):
I was surprised to hear from a number of different people who had wheel sports and other people are interviewed. I always think they’re going to old. You miss basketball. Do you miss all this top end stuff? They’re very humble about what they miss. They have a whole different gratitude about their legs, but they couldn’t. Without the loss of use of them, they say, I miss going upstairs. I miss a full body hug. I miss being able to reach this thing from the top shelf. They’re not talking about triathlons. We’re talking about going up a few stairs and the absolute joy of that. How could you possibly know without having that experience that they’ve had? How could one, you, it seemed odd to people. If you, when you go up a flight of stairs and you turn to your friend and you go, God, how great was that?

Luke (00:16:31):
They go, what? We went up a flight of stairs and they go, are you all right? Did you take something? But if you said to them, Oh, no, I forgot to mention. I had lost, completely use of my legs for five years. So this is an absolute thrill for me. They’d go, Oh gosh, it really must be. That makes sense. Now, why do we have to lose the legs first? Why can’t we have that? Why can’t we have that knowledge, that beautiful gratitude, that deep gratitude and just carry it around regardless. We have to wait for the tragedy to get it. It seems like for most of us, but that, I mean, certainly for me, but I’m really practicing this art of not just like, um, I’m grateful to have this cookbook, but you really got to imagine, you know, what, if it just said, what if, what if it got lost or stolen, it really got to put yourself in like, no, it could be gone. Like you said, it’s an everything, every object or relationship, any financial security or other kind of security can go by in a flash and you have to, in order to really fully dive into this deep gratitude thing, I think you gotta, you really gotta have the imagination to imagine what it’s like, if it were gone and then really put yourself there and then replace it back in your life and go, Ooh, lucky me.

Brad (00:17:50):
Yeah. I guess the parents wish the same for, uh, teaching the life lessons to their children instead of having everything to be learned the hard way. But it seems like all humans, uh, you know, operate that way where it has to be completely visceral and, and actually, you know, get taken away. And then given back to you for you to have a position of gratitude, it’s pretty, um, it’s pretty frustrating to realize we’re all in that. We’re all in that category. I remember during the, um, the.com uh, bubble of, uh, 1999, 2000, I remember when the stock prices went crazy and I was actually working in Silicon Valley at the time, and I made some bad decisions because, you know, why should I sell any stock it’s doubled in the last three months? Of course, it’s on track to double again. And then, uh, when everything crashed, uh, I’ve made a flippant comment to a friend of mine. I said, you know, the next time there’s a bubble. I’m not going to be so greedy. I’m going to, you know, sell my stock in a patterned manner. Like they’re professionals recommend. And he said, well, the next time there’s a bubble. You’re not going to know because that’s the definition of a bubble.

Luke (00:18:54):
That’s right. I mean, who am I going to be standing outside the bubble the next time there’s a bubble.

Brad (00:18:59):
No, it’s going to have to be a deeper reflection than that because, uh, you know, it’s, we’re all, we’re all accountable to participating in the bubble.

Luke (00:19:08):
It’s funny because we also, we’re not wired to understand, you know, if you look at a graph and you see the stock market and it drops 10% and people say, and you say to somebody, okay, what is that? When it does that? And then you show the graph where it’s gone down 10% and go, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a correction. And then you go, Nope, it’s the beginning of the crash. And then you show the rest of the graph and then you look back and you go, wait a minute. Why did I call it a correction? Because we’re not wired to see things. If an event it’s going to happen, we perceive it in one way. And then when we look back and we, you know, the hindsight thing we perceive in an entirely different way and more accurate way, because now we actually see what the heck things were.

Luke (00:19:53):
Our brain and our hearts and our mind tend to judge us. We have a less self judgment about, Hey, wait a second. How come we didn’t see it before? The way I see it now? Well, that’s the bummer part about being locked in the linearity of time. So give yourself a little bit of a break, right? And everything like this. This is part of people who don’t give themselves, you know, much of a break for any kind of mistake. We were talking about the car crash, you know and how that’s an opportunity, like say, say, say, you know, your, your partner things up the car, and I’ve been on the wrong end of this. Um, you know, thinking like, what were you thinking? You know, what the heck didn’t you notice, didn’t you, blah, blah, blah.

Luke (00:20:41):
But it’s like, if we remember, and this is for people who are having financial reversals and really kicking themselves in the pants, here’s a little self healing, and you can do this back and forth to your partner. And you, one of the things I want to talk to you about today was the power that we have over one another. And the power that we have in the world that is completely underestimated. So we have the power when we, if the first thing people say, for example, if they lost a bunch of money, or if they got sick and they say, I wasn’t being very careful, most folks are actually more concerned about not standing up fully for their responsibility for others. I think that’s what hits people more than, than anything, like, think about nightmares. You’ve had everyone had when you were a kid and we’re just egocentric kid. We have nightmares about running away from the bad guy or getting that dream when you’re running in you’re underwater, and you can’t get any purchase of your feet on the ground and the bad guys coming, that’s just basic visceral. Right. But when you get older, what kind of nightmares? Like, tell me like a nightmare. We’d have you wake up and be disturbed.

Brad (00:21:46):
Oh, like you mentioned that you’re, you’re going to fall short of your responsibility to your children and your family, your role in life, your contribution.

Luke (00:21:58):
Exactly. So it’s the classic showing up and not being prepared for the test. It’s the classic, where’s my cat. There’s a big wave coming. And I can’t find my cat. There’s the classic. I’m supposed to be doing something. And I’m confused. And I don’t know what that thing is most when for most caring thinking adults, and most of us are, are, are, are real emotional, you know, plus or a negative charge stems from how we feel judged and how we judge ourselves and how others judges, so we can give and once we acknowledge that, that means literally, you know, if, if I banged up my car driving to, to give a talk to a thousand people and Cate’s in the car and I get it a little fender bender, and I’m expecting, of course, hate to say, well, that’s just great. We can’t, we can’t afford that.

Luke (00:22:48):
That’s yeah, thanks. You know, I was able to have this car nice for three years, and then you got ahold of it and I’ll look at it. But if she said, I’ve always wanted a thing in the car, and then I show up and I tell the story to the audience and they love it, and they go good for you. And I really believe it. We have the power just say to anybody who is prepared to be shamed, or it’s open to be shamed, or to be what I call prided, and we can completely change, reframe anything that happens in life. So if somebody says, look, you’re doing your best. You made the smart choices. You know, we did everything we could to avoid this virus, and now we have it. And there it is. And you, and you don’t have to lay that shame on the other person. You can actually take it as an opportunity to elevate the experience as being part of the larger narrative story of their life. You know, it’s like, Hey, we’ll see where this takes us. And I’ve, I’ve really been practicing that pretty well. This month. I’ve had times in my life when I haven’t. And, but I’m glad I ordered this, this book cause it reminded me, we have incredible power about how we make people feel. And like we were talking about this book that you’re working on doing, right. This, you’ve brought this up on the podcast,

Speaker 6 (00:24:01):
the book about cold exposure, the benefits of cold exposure and how to do it.

Luke (00:24:06):
Yeah. So let’s just use this as an example. If I wanted, I have an opportunity to either make you feel good about that book or bad about that book. Everyone has that opportunity and the closer and more respected people in your life, the more power they have, but everyone perfect strangers have this power. So if you were to bring up this, so let’s do a little skit here. So you bring up your book and I’ll be the, I’m going to shame you if that’s okay. None of this is real I’m just for, for display purposes only,

Brad (00:24:36):
Right. We started talking offline. So just to, just to set this up, you said we have, we have a chance to either pride or shame people at any occasion at any juncture throughout the day and throughout life. And, um, it, it seems like, uh, these, the story you mentioned, we were, so, um, we’re, we’re more inclined to kind of throw the barbs out instead of start from that point of seeing how you can, uh, you know, dispense, uh, you know, good energy around. We seem to kind of react really quickly and get into this, uh, who done it. Thing happens in relationships and happens in families among close, close, uh, uh, people in your life. And, um, hopefully we’re going to solve that issue and figure out how we can come from a, a nicer place, but okay. I’m excited. And I’m telling you, look, I’m working on this really awesome book. It’s about jumping into the cold water and experiencing the hormonal benefits and the psychological benefits.

Luke (00:25:36):
Oh. So don’t, they already have stuff about that. I’ve heard isn’t there stuff about that already. And then,

Brad (00:25:43):
yeah, it’s a really competitive marketplace and I’m not sure mine is good enough.

Luke (00:25:49):
Well, I, I dunno, I think that maybe enough spend set on the subject. I mean, do you do, I mean, I don’t know, maybe you’re bringing something new and you think you’re bringing something new into it, I guess, or,

Brad (00:26:00):
uh, well, I don’t know. I’m not sure.

Luke (00:26:03):
Okay. Right, right now let’s, let’s not go any further down because I think it’s a great idea. Okay. The book, I mean, but you get my point. If I could, I could just continue to deliver a general negative charge toward you about this project that you’re doing. And people, there are people who just as a general practice, see anything as an opportunity to, to, well, like say, to throw shade, right. To do a little shaming, to certainly not to be supportive. Right? And sometimes they’ll say, Hey, look, I’m just, I’m just, I’m just being honest. You know, I’m from, I’m from New York city. I don’t BS anybody. I tell it like, it is no, I’m sorry. I don’t care if you’re from New York City, if you’re spending your time diminishing the way people feel about themselves and their projects and you know, everything else in their life you’re taking, what could have been a wonderful opportunity to absolutely bolster somebody, you know, to, to, to throw more testosterone thrown into your bloodstream to throw a little more, uh, uh, Mmm. Uh, sorry. What’s the, um,

Brad (00:27:09):
Well, estrogen, if it’s the female testosterone, if it’s the male, making someone be the best they can be with, with support is a huge deal. I’ve had my shows with John Gray, which we’ve talked about so much. And, um, you know, the, the romantic partnership can make or break all kinds of things, your health, happiness, and especially your longevity. It can trash it, or it can boost it by seven years, happily married couples have this huge boost in longevity. Uh, and it’s, it’s interesting that you bring up the, you know, the, the, the wise, the wise ass with the, with the quick trigger and, and the, you know, the unfiltered mouth. And I have, uh, I’ve had certain types of people like that in my life throughout my life. And I’ve really appreciated those people that are completely blunt and honest and direct good or bad because they give you that unfiltered scoop and you can process and appreciate it.

Brad (00:28:01):
And you can, you can choose to disagree with them, but there’s no, uh, there’s no nuance to it. And so therefore there’s no potential to misinterpret or, or engage in any little, uh, sort of a, um, you know, the, the harmful game of when these things are, are disguised and sugarcoated. And I see that happening a lot where, uh, these innocent comments that if someone did challenge you and say, Hey, what do you mean by that? You would say, Oh, I didn’t mean to offend you, but you sorta did mean to offend me. And you did it in a cute little way that you couldn’t get, uh, you know, it couldn’t get pinned on you, but that’s where I feel that insidious nature that we, we see so frequently where, you know, either speak what you’re really want to say and say it straight up, or, um, you know, seek to, uh, to, to pride instead of shame.

Luke (00:28:51):
Yeah. And that’s where, that’s where instinct comes in. And I’ve had those kinds of people in my life, too. I have a whole chapter in the book here. The God Academy has a whole chapter called the law of the dancing demon. And the idea is that if you do have someone in your life where you perceive, and this is totally instincts and good luck trying to explain to those people, you go, you know, you kind of spend a lot of time shaming me. And then the next thing you know, you’re doing and now you’re in a courtroom. Really? No, you’re the one who shames me. No, you shame me. And you’re like, and then, and here’s something that’s interesting if you’re with an aggressive personality, you know, with a friend or whatever. Um, and I don’t have, you know, much of that in my life, but I’ve had it on occasion.

Luke (00:29:36):
You know, everyone knows, you know, when, when you’re with someone, you know what I’m talking about, everybody, if you on the phone with somebody, whether it’s, you’re talking to your mom or someone in your family, or a photo or a friend you’ve had, and you just don’t know what to, here’s the key. Yeah. It’s either a plus sign or a minus sign. So when you’re done talking to him, do you feel better about yourself? Or do you feel worse about yourself now? Don’t you dare, I’m telling you do not examine it past that point, your guts, right? If you feel less about yourself, there’s a reason. Now, if you try to contest, if you try to bring this up with the person and you enter a contest about, you know, who’s at fault and all this kind of craziness about, you know, you make me feel, you know, you don’t want to use that language, of course.

Luke (00:30:19):
But one thing I’ve come to realize is that, you know, I’ve always wondered why, um, group think produces, you know, committee, right. Thinking, but you see a bad movie and they say, it seems like a movie made by committee. Right? Okay. What’s wrong with what is inherently wrong with committees? What what’s, what’s the problem here? Here’s the problem. If you take a committee and you have people bargaining with one another about ideas, if it’s a committee, it two or more people, the person with the strongest will not the best idea with the strongest will, will win the day. Now, sometimes that is the person who coincidentally also has a really great idea. Maybe even the best idea, but any committee will produce mostly the views of the people with the strongest views, with the strongest personalities who pushed the hardest. But that doesn’t say anything about the quality or ideas.

Luke (00:31:17):
That space speaks only their personality. So if you have someone in your life, who’s kind of a negative force in your life as defined by you don’t feel as good about yourself when you’re with them. Which man I’m telling you this, the bottom line, if you have that and you try to contest with them, guess what? You’re now in a committee situation. And all you’re really testing is a battle of wills. It’s like taking two beta fish and throwing them into a tank and saying which one’s going to be alive next week. Next week, there will be one fish, not to one will eat the other. You think it’s the one with the better ideas or it’s the one with a stronger will, the more aggressive personality, the biggest fish, you know, in terms of, you know, ego and, and, and just the stridency of their, of their attack.

Luke (00:32:06):
It’s just going to be the fish that has a stronger will. That’s what committee thinking is it’s throwing eight fish, eight ideas into a tank. And the one that emerges is the one that fights the hardest, not the best. So with those people, that what I say in the, in the chapter though, when you have people like that in your life, if they’ve been in your life for awhile, it’s almost certainly a time there. If they’re there and you’re like, God, why can’t I get rid of this toxic person in my life, this toxic friendship or whatever. A lot of times, it’s there something they’re there to teach us something a lot of times it’s, if you find yourself saying to them, well, here’s the deal I will not be spoken to in that tone, or I don’t like it when you continually degrade every time I see I have a project, I’m just, I’m not hearing a lot of, you know, way to go, you know?

Luke (00:32:51):
Mmm. A lot of times it’s just to teach, to remind you about, you know, the primacy of protecting your own self respect. So even those kinds of people in your life have something to teach you. Then once you’ve really learned it, you’re not angry at them anymore. You can just move along. You’ll be angry at the person in your life that you think is toxic right up to the moment that you learn that you grow, they take from their hands, the gift that they’ve been there to give you, you know what I’m saying? That’s when you’re not angry anymore, it means you’ve learned the lesson they came to teach you.

Brad (00:33:23):
You’re a, at some point, you’re hoping not to repeat the pattern and not to have these minuses. I like that simplification of saying plus or minus when you’re talking about the people and the things that you, people you associate with and the things that you do and you come home and you give yourself a plus or minus score. And if you’ve got a bunch of minuses in your notebook, um, at a certain point, you’re gonna, I think what you’re trying to say is, uh, why do I keep putting the minus in my notebook? And maybe there’s a reason in this time in your life and this journey that you’re on, you have to learn these lessons. But boy, that’s a tough way to go. Just like we talked about earlier, um, why can’t we learn from, uh, you know, a concept instead of having to, having to wade through it and learn the hard lessons ourselves. If you’re writing too many minuses in your book, you got to change the dynamic of these relationships or move on in many cases.

Luke (00:34:16):
And we tend to over examine. You know, we, we tend to think that we have so much control that if we examine it enough, we can tinker. We can take a screwdriver and turn a screw about an eighth of a turn and recalibrate the relationship such that it’s not hurtful to us anymore. But the bottom line is if it’s minus sign minus sign minus then, and this is so think about this, think of it in terms of cinema, right? In a movie, what defines a scene or, or a sequence? Like what, what makes a movie, what makes a movie grab us and keep us, you know, the roller coaster ride? What makes it fun?

Brad (00:34:56):
Well, the characters, the characters have to arm the plot, right? Th th the characters have to evolve over time. They have to face challenges and then overcome them. And that’s kind of what we relate to in a good movie.

Luke (00:35:10):
So let’s, let’s, let’s talk about a challenge in a movie, right? So, so let’s say, uh, the challenges that a detective needs to find some clue, any clue to give him a lead to who the murderer is. Right. So he’s frustrated, frustrated, frustrated, but then what does the writer give you after that?

Brad (00:35:32):
A breakthrough and some hope and some inspiration. Yeah.

Luke (00:35:37):
Okay. That’s a plus sign. No, plus sign is, Oh, good news. There’s a clue. Great, great. Then what is it? What does the writer give you?

Brad (00:35:46):
Uh, conflict dramatic conflict,

Luke (00:35:50):
right? Negative side. Things are going good. Things are going bad. Things are going. I mean, look at, look at any of these, you know, super popular TV shows, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, uh, Silicon Valley entourage. You know, any of them, what you’ll see is a pattern of just reversal, reversal, reversal, things are going great. Now things are going bad. Things are going great, how things are going bad. So those reversals that’s spin you into a negative or a positive charge are the stuff of life. Stories mimic the way life works, right? So you take those referrals reversals around. You don’t have a story anymore. So if you think of yourself as being, you know, the main character of your own narrative, when we have these crazy things happening, you know, if you think of it, just in terms of wanting to be in a state of constant gain, constant security, constant advancement, constant social, and economic advancement, for example, okay. Could make for a pretty comfortable life. It doesn’t make for a very good story. That’s a horror story. Now you’re kind of freaking, you know, if it’s a story you got to decide, do you want it to be an interesting story? Or the one where someone was born and everything went fine, and then they died.

Brad (00:37:05):
Yeah, you’re kind of freaking me out, man. We’re kind of, cause we’re, we’re compelled to live our lives, like a movie and bring this drama and bring these setbacks into position so that we can have something to fight against and maintain our own interest, I guess. And that’s a little disturbing because that means that we’re inviting, uh, relationship trauma, relationship conflict. Uh, we’re, we’re self sabotaging so that we can have a setback to, uh, to, to battle against and feel whole again. And it, when it, when it comes to real life, um, I don’t know. I would probably vote I’d raise my hand and say, yeah, I’d like less drama, uh, fewer setbacks and more prosperity and good times and happiness. And I don’t really want to learn from all these struggles, but we seem to, if we,

Luke (00:37:58):
no, it’s a reasonable thing to say, doesn’t it?

Brad (00:38:00):
Yeah. But I mean, we, I mean, if we all were really honest and admit this, um, we’ve all done this and, and that includes, um, uh, you know, picking a, uh, a petty conflict at the end of a long, a great family vacation or whatnot, you know, people just get, get off kilter a little bit and, um, you know, try to try to get that, uh, electrical charge going rather than, uh, you know, peace and tranquility and all the time.

Luke (00:38:30):
Well, is it, it’s unfair. There, there are many, many people who sense that they want their, their, their lives story to be more dramatic that they are when, when you everyone’s known somebody, a whirlwind kind of person. And I come from, you know, poor, very poor, very difficult upbringing, Clinton, Iowa. And I know looking around, there are people who create drama for drama’s sake. And we think that they’re doing it because often there maybe they’re narcissistic and they want all attention to be put on them. Or maybe they’re just lost a lot of times. It’s they feel there’s no plot point in my life every day is the same as the last. Do you remember the movie Groundhog Day?

Brad (00:39:12):

Luke (00:39:14):
How would you describe that plot?

Brad (00:39:17):
That guy’s stuck in a repeating pattern, uh, due to, um, uh, whatever magical forces with the, uh, uh, the Groundhog and the town. And so he wakes up every day and he’s the only one that realizes he’s in the pattern. Everyone else is, uh, just living, living the same, the same life every single day.

Luke (00:39:36):
So he’s stuck in this pattern of living the same life every day. Yes. Yeah. Okay. What if I was to propose to you that it’s exactly the opposite and that’s why it’s a great movie. See, the way people mostly feel in their daily lives is most unhappy people, as they say every day is like the day before. There’s no plot point. They hate it. When they hear, Hey, it’s like life, you get out of it. What you put into what? And they go, not me, not me. It’s the same day. All the time Groundhog Day. It’s the kind of life we want to have where he, he it’s the opposite. He’s he, before he entered that Punxsutawney or whatever it was called. Mmm. Before that he was just a run of the mill average weather, weather, caster hitting, you know, in a cat, hitting on every woman around him, kind of a jerk everyday for him was the same.

Luke (00:40:34):
So he was on, he was on rails, man. Once he entered that town every day, he woke up. Once he realized, Oh, I’m in, stuck in a pattern here every day. He learned something new. Every day, he made a slight change. He made a slight advancement toward his goal, which was not self preservation. It was not money. It was get the girl. That’s all he cared about. And every day was slightly different, slightly better. He worked at it. He took piano lessons and became an expert pianist. Right. It became a medical expert. He learned about everybody in the town. He learned French poetry for God’s sakes. This is a man who’s every day changing, which means every day that he woke up was a new day. Yeah. It was the same song every day. Right. I Got You, Babe. But everything else advanced and that’s how life should feel. It should feel like Groundhog day and happened have that. They look for points.

Luke (00:41:36):
You got what I’m saying for him every day was for him every day, felt like a plot point. So he was happy. He had a goal and every day spun him and was slightly different trajectory. So everyday was different than the one that followed. So that, that’s why it’s a brilliant movie, by the way, because what you said is exactly correct. That is the plot guy wakes up the same day every day, every day. The reason it’s beautiful is that inside that framework, it’s actually secretly exactly the opposite. And so when we have these kinds of reversals, like a lot of us are having right now. Okay, baby, that’s a plot point. Hmm. That counts. Well, if you, you know, if people were not financially hurt, if they don’t have people who are sick, if their job is not affected, if you’re a restaurant. Oh, I shouldn’t say I’m sorry. If you’re, if you’re in a business where this is just something you’re kind of watching from a safe remove.

Luke (00:42:28):
Okay. Lucky you, but you don’t get the plot point. You don’t get a chance to spend your life into a different trajectory. There’s a line out of bill Merwin, William S Merwin, possibly our greatest living American poet past 50 years. And the line is this, you that lose nothing. Know nothing. There’s no. And like we said before, you can’t know the miracle, remember Shakespeare. He says, you know what, what a piece of work is a man. And he’s looking at the absolute miracle of the human hand. You know, I mean, when it’s seeing the Dawn wall, you want to know, somebody knows how miraculous a hand is. Talk to that guy with you, cut his finger off. For him he realized, Oh my God, every single, every single single finger on your hand is its own independent miracle. And that’s why he grieved it. But what did he do?

Luke (00:43:22):
The next order of business for him to say, God, my whole body’s a miracle. And he had a whole new drive, a whole new appreciation to go take that wall. And he did, but you can’t know what a miracle your hand is just by shaking it around and feeling all the, you know, the thousands of little intercut structures inside you get in a motorcycle accident and rip your transverse carpal ligament. And you can’t use your hands for two years ago. My God, what a thing, this thing is, but you need that reversal in order to take that knowledge in and really own it. And so any reversal that you feel, think of it as a plot point in the narrative, it’s going to be, it might, you’ve got tough times, but it’s a better, your life is a better show. It’s a more interesting narrative now,

Brad (00:44:13):
or I guess like you were talking about earlier, even the idea of a reversal or to, you know, consider, uh, the idea of, of, of not being able to use your legs. Maybe you’ll have a different appreciation for ascending the staircase rather than walking around, taking everything for granted. Um, Bruce Lipton’s book Biology of Belief. He says we’re 95% of the time operating from flawed subconscious programming. So we’re living our lives just in sort of a robotic mode where we’re not conscious and therefore less capable of appreciating the moment and the experience and not judging and, uh, you know, get getting out of that, uh, FOMO mindset, fear of missing out all those kinds of things that were most of the time engaged in, uh, the, the brain science shows that, um, uh, 96% of our thoughts are identical to yesterdays and 80% of those thoughts are negative.

Brad (00:45:17):
So, you know, we’re waking up and guess who’s helping us along. This journey is the, the media and the distortion of reality. That’s, uh, you know, do designed to, uh, listen our fears and anxieties because that’s what sells and that’s what the machine wants. And so, you know, we’re waking up every day looking at a new, uh, you know, life changing headline with news about the, uh, the outbreak and all these kinds of things. And we’re going into negative mindset and we’re repeating the same thoughts and same patterns. So I guess the w you’ve kind of covered a lot of the content of The God Academy, but if you want to dip in to kind of frame it, uh, whatever we haven’t covered and also tell me kind of the, the opening premise of writing this book, which was sort of a parody, and it was written by a different author and it was making fun of kind of, uh, what, what we see in that realm. Uh, but kind of set the, set the tone a little bit for them.

Luke (00:46:15):
Sure. Yeah. Thanks for asking. I hope people have, you know, here’s the book God Academy and, um, well, it kind of happened like this. I was teaching, uh, yeah, at the University of Hawaii, uh, in Kauai, um, uh, pre tenure track, um, great job, great kids. The first I’d open up the class. A lot of the kids, their English would not be, you know, the best you know, by mainland English standards, but they, they spoke English, but they also spoke Pidgin, that’s two languages. So I started the class and saying, you know, our first lesson’s going to be lessonfor me. I need an assignment that you need me to write in Pidgin. And they’d gave me an assignment. And they said, well, you’re going to, Oh, you have to write one pet, one Peppa professor. I’m like, yeah, you’re going to, and then I do my best to do my homework, go in the next day, sit on the floor, which was deliberate,

Luke (00:47:15):
and have them correct me and mock me for how awful my Pidgin was, all the errors that was making. So it was those kinds of things that got me a reputation as a different kind of teacher and over time Mmm. Faculty and students and all this, I kind of got a reputation as somebody, people could just go talk to, you know, if they’re in a lot of kids are going through some really rough stuff, you know, they’re, they’re kids with, you know, it’s just been recently diagnosed with HIV and other ones who are getting beat up at home. Others are working six jobs and haven’t slept and there, you have to take speed to stay awake and all kinds of interpersonal stuff. And teachers would come with students who were having troubles and ask me for advice sometimes. And I got better at it. And I found, I was teaching simultaneously a lot of like comparative mythology, you know, in English literature.

Luke (00:48:07):
And there was a lot of lessons in there. Of course I would naturally just draw from those in order to try to help people out. So over the years, I just, you know, you got into this mode, I didn’t charge anybody, anything. I just became this kind of GoTo source. And I really enjoyed it. I like being helpful. And so later, Cate and I moved to New Hampshire and I said, I should kind of take some of these lessons and put them in a book. But like you said, it was a little bit of a kick in the pants to the, the secret specifically, because I’d read that. And you know, everyone in California in Hawaii was you gotta read the secret. And I said, you know, I actually, I actually believe in this attraction concept. I mean, I don’t know where you come down on that Brad, but I mean, I’m telling you, I’m a believer.

Brad (00:48:50):
I’m saying it to the whole world. Tell us the premise of the secret. This was a bestselling book.

Luke (00:48:56):
Yes. So the central idea, the core concept is that they don’t put it this way, but I put it this way is that every thought you have is in fact, a prayer. There’s no such thing. As a thought, it’s a prayer and out it goes and different people have, maybe, you know, are on a different scale of how true this is for them. But for me, the thoughts I have do come true sometimes when I don’t want them to. But as a scientist, you know, um, I can’t ignore the evidence. That’s right in front of me. And this has been the case my whole life. And I’ve had to try and I’ve tried to train. This is part of the book, The God Academy. I talk about the benefits of lucid dreaming and lucid dream, as you know, because one of those is a dream where you wake up inside the dream in the sense that you go, Oh, I’m dreaming.

Luke (00:49:51):
This is a dream. And then you can start to control the dream. Oh, I think I’ll try flying. I’ll think I’ll go, I’ll do this. I’ll reset the stage. Now I’m in the Taj Mahal. It’s my mind. And, and that experience of a lucid dream reminds you that, you know, as they say life is, but a dream it’s true. And it’s not a truth that you can prove on a blackboard, but it’s a truth that a lot of people have and in a moment of epiphany, and once you get that, you’re stuck with it, man. You can’t get rid of it. It’s a, it’s a thorn in your soul, but a good one. Cause it’s always prodding you reminding you hold it. Don’t get too angry at this. Don’t too attached to that. This thing’s a dream. It’s not a put on it. It’s as real as anything gets, but it’s a dream.

Luke (00:50:33):
My personal belief is that it’s that, you know, I said in the God Academy, you know, many times it’s in the final chapter said, look, realize you are God. I tried to find what that means you are God. And when I say that, the idea is that if you believe that there is some sort of God consciousness, and I don’t mean some underlying matrix that you know, used us as a, as a, as consciousness, as a probe to understand the universe. No, if you go a step further than that and go so far as to say, the God has a consciousness, then it became, becomes evident. Then that the entire universe, including us, are an attempt for God to better understand every aspect of his own spiritual landscape. It means we’re all probes like, like tendrils of a plant, reaching out to taste all the minerals of the dirt within, within a hundred miles, because to do that is for God to better understand himself.

Luke (00:51:38):
And if you feel like if you get this ephinany, which could people could say, I don’t buy it, never had that epiphany sounds like a lot of the estimate I dig. But if you’ve had one of those moments, a lot of religious people have a lot of non-religious people have, you know, so called spiritual. This people just, just regular people go, Oh, I get it. But there’s even a philosopher who suggests that, you know, there’s a, there’s a very high likelihood mathematically that we’re all figments of a very extensive software program. You probably heard that. But the idea being that if you do believe, if you believe that there’s more to this to, to, to our philosophy, that more to the world than the strength is in our philosophy, then this idea of attraction suggests that thoughts are things I think of men’s prayers and that they can, in fact, if they’re powerful, bring about those events.

Luke (00:52:33):
Now begs the question. What if two people have a very, very strong thought and they are attracting incompatible realities, right? And that’s a simple scientific question. That’s a reasonable retort. I would say the answer to that is that the life we’re living right now, the thing that connects us all together is that we are all in the midst of a collision of provisional realities. Each of which being each reality, being spontaneously created by each of us and living in court in a kind of collider agreement with one another. But they’re always like a supercollider they’re always banging. Then when he went other setting each other’s trajectories in different directions, this mass collision of provisional realities that we’re all dreaming up with our thoughts is what we call the daily life. And within that context, within that context to realize if you start to notice it that yes, we do bring about realities. So that’s one of the main consequences of my book as well. The difference, one of the key differences between my book, God Academy and the secret is that I don’t think that thinking about cars and big houses and making as much money as possible is the end game. And I think there’s a much, much bigger picture a foot. And then you, and you’re really missing the boat if you don’t see that. So I see this as sort of, that’s why I call it a masterclass it’s it’s okay. If you ha, if you had the, you know, the grade school version of misconcept, step up and get your PhD.

Brad (00:54:04):
So what’s the, I mean, most people are familiar with this law of attraction and manifesting wealth has become a popular concept, popular topic. Um, I think there’s a lot of misinterpretation going on. And Luke Story, one of my podcasts, guests lifestyle is podcast hosts. He, um, he explained it really well where he said, if you’re not living in a position of gratitude right now, you’re cut off from these amazing powerful forces where you can attract the man of your dreams. And he’s got a trim beard and he’s six one, and he drives a, this kind of car, uh, all these things that people claim are so powerful and so true and work for them as they live in their house on top of the hill. And you do a good job making fun of that, all that nonsense in the book, right. But you know, the, the, uh, the powers of manifestation, um, I’m starting to pay more attention to them.

Brad (00:54:56):
And I appreciate the concept very, very much. So, uh, you know, the way Luke prefaced, it was great because he said, if you’re not in that position of gratitude right now, and grateful for what you have and who you are and where you are, then you’re cut off from these, these forces and powers. And if you’re thinking that manifesting something and bringing it in is then going to make you happy content and, and balanced and all that, um, you’re completely missing the point. So that was a good, a good setup for the people that scoff at first, at first notion that you manifested this car because, uh, you know, you dreamed about it. Um, and I think you’re, you’re still on that, on that same wavelength to where you’re kind of ridiculing the, the misinterpretation of these concepts and going deeper,

Luke (00:55:41):
absolutely most definitions that you’ll find in a book like the secret. I find those definitions so narrow as to be as destructive, as sunlight through a magnifying glass, you know, aimed at some, you know, at a, at a balsa wood house, it’s going to, it’s a nice entry point idea, but it sets the larger point of flame. It loses the plot.

Brad (00:56:03):
Give me an example.

Luke (00:56:04):
You know, when people think about people need a smaller ego, right? You have a big ego, you have a small ego forget size of ego, nature of ego. There’s not the first chapter in the book. Law of ego talks about expanding your ego to encompass all things. And there’s a word for that, by the way, how the fact that you were not just, you, you were everything that you’ve touched and influenced. It’s called influence. And that’s the actual you, the physical body that goes around influencing thing. That’s the probe. That’s just the vehicle that you use to walk around and influence. It’s the mushroom that pops out that you can see above the ground, but the entire giant plant this mass organism, that’s a shape that that’s an in shape of a ring. It could be a mile wide. That’s the real you. So the real us is influence. So I bring that up because when he talked about being in a state of gratitude, I also have a chapter about this and call it law of infinite return. The idea is to be in a state of gratitude, must extend beyond even. I’m great to have my car.

Luke (00:57:04):
I’m happy to have my car. I’m happy to have my relationship. I’m happy to do this and this and this. Let me just real quickly tell me what tell you what I mean by that. If right now, Brad, you went outside, jumped in your car, drove across town. I bought some beef jerky and came back just on a whim, right? You were like, I don’t know why I did that. It was out of nowhere, right? The other day, Cate, it was great moment. I’m not spontaneous enough. And Cate’s trying to teach me about this, but I said, let’s just go get sushi, just cause I want to. And she was great. She goes, okay. And we went and I go, wow, this feels weird. You know this, but if you were to do that, do something totally spontaneous. If you were to take a quarter and go outside and put it on the sidewalk, it has absolutely.

Luke (00:57:50):
And this isn’t, this isn’t a spiritual reality. Only. This is a mathematical truisms written about in chaos theory. Uh, the, the whole butterfly causing, uh, you know, a hurricane, every little thing that you do has a massive impact necessarily about the state of the entire world a year from now. Do you know what I mean? Every single action you take and everything that happens to you will, the consequences of that will ripple out until the state of the entire planet will be measurably different. Who’s going to be president could’ve changed because you went and got beef jerky. This is a mathematical truism because you go there that affects the guy who’s selling the beef jerky. He goes home. He goes, he walks into his house three minutes later than he would have otherwise because he closed up the shop a little bit later because this and that, which caused his wife, that dah, dah, dah, and so on the ramifications of all our choices are infinitely powerful.

Luke (00:58:46):
And the only time that they influence stops is when the influence is saturated on the whole world. But even then that influence continues year after year after year after year, the longer period of time, you can imagine it as kind of a, a cone of influence your choice to get the beef jerky. We’ll have a given amount of influence by tomorrow. Not much, but some by the end of the week, far greater by the end of the month, year, five years, the cone of influence. So what that means is if we’re grateful, imagine this. You hear about an airplane crash, 300 people die, massive, horrible, terrible.

Luke (00:59:30):
Imagine that you got to know one of the people who died very, very, very well. And you know that they’re a wonderful person, right? They do a kitty cat rescue and not the Tiger King kind, you know, a nice person and you heard they died and, and, and the mathematical gods come to you, God himself says, well, I’ll tell you what, remember how you had a poker game last year and you won 500 bucks. Remember how happy you were? And you go, yeah, that was great. I never win. That was a great day. Yeah. I just, it was like, I couldn’t lose. It goes okay. But it tell you what, um, because of the nature of, of the cone of influence the cone of consequence, if you were to lose a hundred bucks that night, that plane won’t crash and you go, what, how, how, wait, what if we buy the idea, the chaos concept that a butterfly can cause a hurricane it’s a much, much less, uh, while the novel concept to see that something as big as winning thing, 500 bucks can influence whether an airplane winds up hitting something on the airstrip or runs into some geese, right?

Luke (01:00:44):
Like the, like the plane that landed in the Hudson imagine. So what does that mean? That means to be grateful for what we have in the here and now is still a little bit narrow. That’s about stuff. We have no idea. You know, if you say you’re grateful for your car, and then you get in the car crash, you can’t be too grateful or ungrateful about the car, even because you have to consider this.

Luke (01:01:12):
I don’t know if this is going to save a hundred or a thousand or 10,000 lives in a year, or if it won’t, I’ll never know, that’s just the nature of life. But what I do know is me being in a small car crash, thankfully, thankfully, nobody got hurt, but that is going to have massive influence down the road. And it might have influence that will wind up touching people who you would have chosen. Looking backward, if you knew everything, if you had the omniscient mind, you might go, Oh, actually, I’m cool with the car crash, leave that in the story. Cause that wound up being a good thing for all these people. That didn’t happen to me, me, but for other people down the road,

Brad (01:01:48):
that’s heavy, man. It’s, it’s tough to get your head around it, but if you can live your life in that manner, thinking that your impact is massive and has this massive ripple effect, that’s possibly a very good way to go and to be more thoughtful and deliberate and more kind and try to pride instead of shame and all those things, Right?

Luke (01:02:10):
When, like you said, it totally undermines the idea that that security is real, that our control is real. That’s. Things are real in the, if you really have an empathetic, loving Godlike heart that says, you know, I’m pretty cool with losing a card game. I mean, imagine Seth, Oh, sorry. What’s his name that does all the voices as a family guy and all that seemingly wonderful guy. He does a great Kirk. Thank you, Seth MacFarlane. Okay. You might know the story. He just barely missed that. One of the flights that flew in and the, the buildings, he just missed that flight. By a hair or half an hour. But you know, it was pretty close. And I didn’t know that story. And you think, huh? What if you were playing poker with Seth the week before and you won and you go, ha ha Seth, I got 500 bucks off you.

Luke (01:03:10):
See you next time. And you’re all happy with yourself. It’s so fantastic. Or, and they say, you’ll lose and you’re all down. And you feel shamed because you’re not a very good card player and you have to go home and tell your partner, Oh, not a good night. You can’t know if that was a good thing until a week later where Seth goes, it’s funny. Cause after I, you know, let’s say that you took his 500 bucks and he goes, I was kind of upset. Cause I like to think of myself as a good card player. And I stayed up till two in the morning just feeling like a total boob and I’ve been sleeping and I met and that kind of set me for the whole week. I’ve been sleeping too late. And then, and then on the day for the flight, I woke up a little bit late, missed the flight and there you go.

Luke (01:03:53):
Oh, so that’s the influence of a card game in the period of one week. So that means everything that happens to us. We have no idea, no, this, you know, if you, if you take a quarter, put place in the center of a sidewalk, you just changed the world. And I mean the world and I don’t mean metaphorically. I mean, for real, you haven’t changed that in an hour. If someone comes and sees it and picks it up, okay, that’s the entry point to how you’re beginning to change the war role, which means just because we’re blind to it. It doesn’t mean it’s not happening. And if that’s true, that means if that’s, and here’s where faith comes in. If seeming reversals in your life, feel horrible, you have to go, you know what? I have no idea what the consequences of this does. I know it’s not very good for me right now, but I just changed Earth, man. The whole thing for every living, human being and every animal of change Earth. How long will that take to have happened a year or so? Maybe less. Why don’t we change the world? That’s powerful.

Brad (01:05:05):
Yeah. That’s I think that’s a nice conclusion here, Luke, because we’re existing in this time where, uh, it’s, you know, your, your statement is validated by, uh, our actions to shut down this, uh, pandemic and every little thing we do and every person we touch. So if you’re selfishly going off to get some beef jerky, uh, or, you know, traveling on a jet, I don’t know, who’s still flying places now. It might be some really important business people that are getting on an airplane, uh, exposing the flight attendant to everyone they’ve exposed themselves to. And so on this ripple effect. So what a great time to converse about the, um, the powers and we can learn more in the fabulous book with the unveiled author, uh, Angelica Crystal Powers, it’s called The God Academy of masterclass and the power of attraction. And where do we go find out about this on Amazon or anywhere books are sold

Luke (01:06:06):
available on Amazon. And, um, yeah, I mean, like I said, this pandemic is a perfect example. You know, somebody might’ve felt really, really good that they sold that there was some meat that was left out a little longer than it should have been. Or however, this thing started in that province in China. And if any, no doubt felt really good that they got to sell that meat. That maybe it wasn’t so great. And you go, okay, well enjoy your, you know, $2, but just so you know, that’s going to have a little bit of an effect.

Brad (01:06:33):

Luke (01:06:34):
More than a $2 sale. And I think, you know, so we, so we see like, I want to just focused on that for one last second, because that’s a perfect, you brought up the perfect example in the way that, that small outbreak from what seems to be, you know, the mishandling of this, of these, of these, not very pleasant. Mmm. You know, wild animal markets that has live and dead animals and the whole thing. Right. Which is kind of a metaphor for sin in a way it’s not, it’s unwholesome. You see a place like that and you go, we’re not doing something something’s wrong here. It’s like going to one of those massive, you know, uh, hog killing facilities, you say, okay, well, if there’s hell on earth here, here it is. You know, but we see how a tiny, tiny act. And you say to that person at that marketplace, just a humble person, just selling them, their meat. And you go, Hey, just so you know, your actions have really big consequences, like bigger than you think. And I go, really, you go give it a few months, give it six months. You’ll be surprised how powerful you are. You can change the world. The good news is we can do the same thing for the better, but it definitely means that examining any single event that happens in your life, in that tiny little context, as opposed to being part of the larger, larger tapestry of the narrative, that we’re all engaged in it’s myopic and ridiculous. So keep changing the world and don’t judge yourself too much. Cause you don’t know what the consequences of your actions are. Move in faith, move with love, do your best. And that’s it.

Brad (01:08:12):
Luke Shanahan. Love it. Thank you for joining good stuff, man. We’ll check back in and we’ll check back in, in a year and discover the ripple effect of this this year podcast.

Luke (01:08:26):
Hey, that’s no joke, man. We’ll see, you know, by the book people have, have me on a gun and I’m, you know, I promise you I’m coming from a good place and I have no intention. It was one of this. Another thing I learned this month, I have no intention of ever getting rich. Well, I do want to be influential. I want to do good. I want to make some noise and that’s, that’s a happy place to be.

Brad (01:08:50):
Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com. And we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves cause they need to thanks for doing it.


(Breather) After our awesome interview where Dave detailed the content of his new book, The Imperative Habit, I kept the mic running and captured some precious off the cuff commentary about how to stay focused on the seven habits when you need them most – when dealing with relationship conflict, facing tough interactions at work or in personal life, or experiencing anger and frustration.

Dave talks about how you can use compassion and kindness to communicate your wants and needs and accomplish goals; how to live in acceptance and gratitude, but without getting taken advantage of: “You can say no with love and compassion,” Dave says. It’s a great little tidbit to close the book on the wide-ranging insights from our full-length interview.


When dealing with conflict, observations are not defensive, and stating your goals is not defensive.  [04:42]

Sometimes it is the lack of awareness, not a value system that keeps you from doing something. [07:51]



  • “Our awareness is a lot more powerful than our values.”
  • “It’s not events that make us upset or angry, it’s our belief in them that does.”


Download Episode MP3

Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (00:08):
Welcome to the get over yourself podcast. This is author and athlete, Brad Kearns, discovering ways to be healthy, fit and happy in hectic, high-stress, modern life. So let’s slow down and take a deep breath. Take a cold plunge and expertly balance that competitive intensity with an appreciation of the journey. That’s the theme of the show. Here we go.

Brad (03:09):
Okay, here we go with the breather show from Dave Rossi, author of the Imperative Habit and my guest for a wonderful full length interview where he talks about using his seven steps toward living a life of happiness and grace and peace of mind and getting out of those reactive behaviors that caused such destruction for ourselves and in our relationships. But Hey, it all sounds great when Dave’s talking up a storm on the show. And then when you have these situations in real life where you’re dealing with a conflict, perhaps a relationship conflict or any tough situations such as in the workplace or when you’re experiencing anger and you’re trying to keep your head about ya and not let it ruin your day or break down loving, peaceful relationships and smooth interactions.

Brad (04:02):
So this is Dave talking about how to use the seven habits, how to put them to work and live in acceptance. Uh, but without getting walked on. So, right, we can’t just accept everything and be a doormat for people with lower levels of consciousness, lower vibrational levels to come and mess with our day because we’re so graceful and mindful and living in acceptance. So there’s a fine line and little nuance here. So we get a little raw and unplugged here. Listening to Dave talk about how to use the seven habits when you most need them. Enjoy

Dave (04:42):
Whatever comes out will be a thousand times better than if you don’t follow those rules.

Dave (04:47):

Dave (04:48):
Compassion is not rolling over. It’s an understand where you are. I get it. You’re, you’re upset. I understand that. I’m really sorry you’re upset. I hope I can help you with you, but this is what I was trying to achieve. These are my objectives. These are my goals. Not defensive. Observations are not defensive. Stating your goals. You’re not defensive. Disagreeing is not defensive. Saying no is not, not giving love and compassion. You can say no with love and compassion. So you finished the book?

Brad (05:18):
Uh, yeah, but you know what, I, I had to read it too quickly, so I’m going to read it all over again. Mia Moore and I will probably read it together, uh, but you know, to get it, uh, get it absorbed. And then I take notes and I have, you know, notes from books put into the Brad master thing. A lot of them are like fitness and training and diet things. But then I have, you know, John Gray’s assignments and Deepak’s for, uh, what does he call the, um, uh, his four daily intentions that he reminds himself of every day in meditation. And, uh, it’s, you know, it’s a lot going in and I think most people don’t have time to deal. So, um, you know, what, what you do with extracting these, um, these seven laws is really important because, you know, we have a fighting chance at remembering those, especially if you write them down on a sticky note and tapping into it.

Dave (06:08):
Yeah. I remember this, the checklist I remembered, I would have literally, my ex wife would call me, you’re an asshole and fuck you for doing this. And I go, okay, I love and compassion except don’t argue you don’t offend. You know, and then I’d say, what could I say? Honey, I’m so sorry that you hate me.

Brad (06:25):
Sorry for your pain. Was that your quote from Deepak or I just saw it today. I don’t know what he said. Um, uh, it helps to understand that people are doing the best they can from their level of consciousness.

Dave (06:38):
The book is a collection of all these other people’s books. Um, the chapter on relationships is actually pretty good too.

Brad (06:43):
Oh yeah, we’ll do a whole show on that, man. That’s our, that’s our bread and butter here. So,

Dave (06:47):
Well did you read the example about leaving a towel on the floor? I mean that’s all about relationships and people do things that piss you off. And how do you deal with that?

Brad (06:56):
Yeah, John Gray just talked about that. But I did a show with him last week and, um, his wife bug bug the crap out of him leading left this light on in the living room and it was a pretty powerful exchange cause he said, you know, today I’m pretty good. I go turn that light off. And I, he thinks of his wife died after 40 year relationship. He’s still struggling and traumatized. But you know, um, he said that when this shit happens, it’s really, um, different value system. And I go, can I say that out loud? That’s awesome. He goes, no, don’t say that out loud. You think that to yourself? Like, you know, I’m, I’m uh, I’m leaving stuff on the ground because I’m, what’s on my screen is more important. Right? Or whatever, whatever. That’s your value system. But someone else, they feel like they become your maid. Uh, but if, you know, if we can think of that outwardly, like that’s just a different values that Dave, Dave Rossi, he’s laid all the time. I waited seven minutes for him at the coffee shop. This has a different value system. It’s not, you know, it’s not, it’s not,

Dave (07:51):
well, yes and no. I would say this, um, number one, what do I deal with with anger is a quote from Epictetus, which is, is not event that makes us upset or angry. It’s our belief in them that does. A lot of reasons why you’re leaving the towel on the floor or leaving the light on is a lack of awareness. It’s not necessarily values. It’s literally your brain is busy and full. And that fullness, that chatter, that was too many apps on your phone in your head prevent you from focus being present and awareness.

Brad (08:31):
Well, a kid, frontal lobes not even developed till age 25. They have an excuse, Hey, I’m a kid. I can’t think of towels.

Dave (08:38):
Yeah. So I don’t entirely agree with Dr. Gray that it’s values. It would be values. If you stopped, you were aware and said I can be late cause I have a value system that I can be late. No one ever is going to say I value being late. Okay. They might say I have a priority that’s greater doing. Maybe that’s values, maybe that’s what he means. But ultimately if you’re aware, if you have a high level of awareness and you’re running and exercising and you’re saying, you know, my priorities have finished my run for the next 10 minutes and it’s okay being late. Okay. If you have an awareness, you might say, you know, I got myself here, I made this commitment, I value Dave’s time, I’m going to cut my run 10 minutes short and be on time. I don’t know. So I think awareness is a lot more powerful than, than values. You might end up saying, fuck it, I’m going to be 10 minutes late cause that’s my priority is to finish my run and this meeting isn’t that important. That’s okay. Yeah,

Brad (09:38):
that’s okay. Or I, you know, I don’t like the uh, oftentimes stressful, uh, aspects of being on time, like a little time machine. And so I make that conscious decision that I’m just not gonna whatever race through traffic or rush through the house and forget something and get into that high stress mode just to be there at nine o’clock instead of nine Oh four so that’s kind of my value system and some people that came from military or whatever, they think being on time is everything and being five minutes late is a form of disrespect. That’s their value system projected on me. It’s, I mean, no disrespect to arriving at nine Oh five to my meeting with the former military guy, you know?

Dave (10:18):
Well that’s what you use your checklist. I’m so sorry this upset you. I didn’t do this to upset you. It wasn’t my intention to make you less important. Also, if you knew that about yourself, then you create a situation to be kind. Hey, I know we’re going to meet at nine. I just needed to let you know that I am really sorry if I’m late, but sometimes I get overwhelmed with things and there’s a possibility that I might be like, I just, you know, it’s his folder. That’s awareness, right? That’s an awareness.

Brad (10:51):
Yeah. I think what works for me in those difficult relationships is if you can catch yourself from saying anything because you know it’s going to get pounced on, you know? Especially if you have a longterm programming where two people are like to go at it and you say, I’m sorry I’m late. What was the reason? Why were you late? I’m just so sorry. I have no reason and no excuse.

Dave (11:14):
There’s two reasons to give them that give them the ability to pounce and that’s being defensive and arguing. That’s why the checklist is don’t offend and don’t argue because you don’t want to give them ammunition because it doesn’t matter what the reasons were that you’re late, they’re just upset. So you rush in to make them feel better. Not defend or argue. Like prior, I used to say, you shouldn’t be upset. I’m going to argue with you. You shouldn’t be upset for these reasons. And that was a big part of my composition was arguing and there was, and I couldn’t get them to change their mind. Right?

Brad (11:52):
Yeah, because Dave Rossi always right and why the fuck.

Dave (11:55):
I care I want unkind. You shouldn’t be upset cause I’m doing good things.

Brad (11:58):

Dave (11:59):
You just don’t have all the right information instead of, I’m so sorry you’re upset. I understand you’re upset. It doesn’t matter why you’re upset, you’re still upset and I care about you and how can I make it up to you instead of, Hey, these are the reasons why in a year, I completely, totally agree with you. A hundred percent on that don’t. You don’t need to get the results, right. It doesn’t matter.

Dave (12:20):
Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com and we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop, iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves cause they need to. Thanks for doing it.


Bee The Wellness founders Vanessa and Adam Lambert are here to talk about all things related to health and wellness today, with a focus on relationships. This power couple truly knows their stuff, as Bee The Wellness is a health and wellness consulting company that specializes primarily in retreats held around the world. People experience full-on lifestyle transformations during these programs and Vanessa and Adam’s warm energy and enthusiastic personalities bring a really special sense of camaraderie to the whole experience.

Vanessa and Adam also host a “Bee The Wellness” podcast that allows them to further connect with their audience and also bring in some fun guests. You’re probably thinking now that that’s a lot of time for two people to spend together – collaborating daily for their company and their retreats, weekly for their podcast, and also just being in a committed partnership! Vanessa shares that, “One of the biggest things for us as we’ve grown in our relationship is actually to have permission to argue…to actually make space for that.” This was quite a discovery for Vanessa, as she grew up hearing her mother, who was divorced, press upon the importance of never arguing with your partner. However, Vanessa realized that if you’re always living in fear of not “getting along” with your spouse, that will do you both a great disservice. And as their relationship grew with time, she realized that she and Adam were able to communicate in a much healthier manner when they were getting stuff off their chests and expressing what was on their mind to each other. “You can’t just shove it away in a corner. It’s actually been awesome for us to learn how to fight!” Vanessa comments, laughing. Adam quickly clarifies that their fights are not “screaming and yelling sessions” but rather a way for them to simply have a rational conversation about information that just has to be let out into the open. And as they both explain, not taking things personally makes a huge difference, which is why they’re both so committed to letting the small stuff go. They understand that the other person might say something without thinking, or be running on little sleep, and something insensitive or unnecessary slips out…it happens, we’re all human. And not being nit-picky or overly sensitive to those very real, human moments, to simple mistakes, makes a huge difference in the dynamic of their relationship. Vanessa notes that often, a lot of people will “latch onto” one bad moment in their relationship and “become a victim of that moment,” but that kind of behavior will never help you move forward. Clearly, getting over yourself goes a long way, especially when you find yourself in a petty argument with your spouse and can’t even remember how you got there! Vanessa reminds us that no one will be perfect “every second of the day” and to just remember this when you find yourself in a challenging moment. “80/20 it!” Adam suggests. Yes, you can totally apply the 80/20 healthy eating rule to your behavior within your relationship – strive for your best most of the time, but don’t beat yourself up when a small mistake slips in. Recognize what happened, acknowledge the mistake and the part you played, learn from it, and move on. Next!

More than anything, taking personal responsibility for the way you are in all areas of life is one of the major lessons people learn to integrate from Adam and Vanessa. They compare its importance to managing money to illustrate how much care people will pour into one area of their lives if they think it’s important. Well, if you don’t put the same kind of thought and responsibility into managing your emotions, then how can you be surprised when you realize you have no control over them? One big question Adam pushes people to ask themself is: “Where do I suffer more if I’m not the person I need to be?” Almost always, the answer to this question is work, as that’s where your income and reputation come from, not to mention how often it involves your ego.

One of the best takeaways from this show is how deeply beneficial it is to work on your relationship because working on your relationships forces you to work deeply on yourself. This is because the simple act of being in a committed partnership will make anyone expand internally in a way that they wouldn’t have been prompted to, had that other person not been there for you to react to. As Vanessa notes, working through issues in a relationship is often the catalyst for you to say, “Wait, why do I react like that?” which allows you to really go deep and examine why you react to things in a specific way. Discovering where certain deep-rooted behavior comes from – “sifting through your files together” as Vanessa has coined it – is the “magic” that keeps them together – through doing the deep work. Adam and Vanessa have been together a long time (since they were “kids,” Adam notes) and fortunately, they’ve been able to grow together, and not grow away from each other.

A huge part of that growth is thanks to their Bee The Wellness coaching program. One of the reasons why their retreats are so life changing is because Vanessa and Adam are constantly taking it to the next level and asking themselves the right (and sometimes hard) questions in order to deepen their emotional intelligence. One thing they point out is how everyone is always so focused on being healthy, but for what? “You’re not going to get a blue ribbon for being healthy….The real prize is in how you use it,” Vanessa says. She makes a great point – if simply being healthy, fit, and capable is the prize, then what do you really want to use it for?  These retreats are often centered around physically challenging exercises, like hiking Machu Picchu and white water rafting in Costa Rica, but as Vanessa and Adam explain, the physical fitness aspect is merely a conduit that leads people to develop a deeper and clearer understanding of what they’d like to devote their time to, and how to best utilize their strengths, both physical and mental. And more than anything, the camaraderie that develops between the other retreat members is truly invaluable: “It makes these once in a lifetime experiences even more special because you’re sharing them with people who are your friends, but who feel like family.”

That’s all for today, but stay tuned for an upcoming show where we’ll discuss plant medicine and the role ayahuasca plays in their life-changing retreats.


Adam and Vanessa balance the yin and the yang on their podcasts. [06:32]

Their solid marriage is based on the ability to converse in an adult manner and not take things personally. [12:02]

Adam points out the difficult adjustment people in powerful jobs have to go through when they get home. [17:27]

Surveys show a surprising difference in what women and men really want from a partner. [23:37]

You have to take creativity and understand how to create structure around your life. [30:25]

How does it work with Vanessa and Adam to spend every waking hour together? [36:15]

When the couple spends a great deal of time apart, there tends to be a lack of intimacy. [41:24]

If your partner doesn’t want to hear about your day, you will withdraw from them. [44:39]

Vanessa and Adam began in the primal paleo scene many years ago in Chico, CA. [47:13]

The community aspect of their training fosters their wellness program. [50:56]

It’s much easier to eat primally when you are out of the States. [55:58]

The battle to be healthy here in the U.S. is not a joke.  There is constant infiltration of crap. [58:37]

You have to take a lot of personal responsibility to try psychedelics. One needs to be very cautious. [01:00:29]



“There has to be structure and commitment around the way you do your day.”

“Create your life in a way so you have things you’re committed to, that you follow through with.”

“It’s much easier to eat primally when you are out of the States.”


Download Episode MP3

Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (00:00:00):
Welcome to the get over yourself podcast. This is author and athlete, Brad Kearns, discovering ways to be healthy, fit and happy in hectic, high-stress, modern life. So let’s slow down and take a deep breath. Take a cold plunge and expertly balance that competitive intensity with an appreciation of the journey. That’s the theme of the show. Here we go.

Brad (00:04:05):
Hey, I get to talk to a super duper power couple of the universe. Vanessa and Adam Lambert. They operate a health and wellness consulting company called Bee The Wellness, BEE The Wellness, specializing in retreats, adventurous destination retreats where they go for big time lifestyle transformation with this total immersion experience. The camaraderie part and the free spirited part is the centerpiece. Vanessa is a real free spirit. She has an alternate ego by the name of Nesta Ray, where she’s a singer, songwriter, performer, a. These guys are a lot of fun and we were going to talk about the retreats and their career and the health and fitness space, but we ended up on this show getting into relationship dynamics because these guys are fascinating. They live together, work together, travel together, their lives are interwoven and completely on the same parallel track.

Brad (00:05:06):
Adam used to be a firefighter when he was gone for long stretches of time during the relationship and now they’ve gone into chapter two where they’re side by side or actually face to face at their dueling standup desks where they spend a lot of their day planning the retreats and running the business coaching people. And so we just get into a lot of that about what it’s like to have sort of a long distance relationship where you’re lonely and a lot of times and now when you’re in each other’s face all the times. And I love their perspective and their insights. So we get into that with a lot of content here. And then we’re going to have a second show with them where we focus on am the plant medicine world and specifically the all inclusive AyahuascaRetreats that they host an organized, and this is new territory to me, so that’s going to be show number two. But here let’s hear from a couple who’s really making it work, change in other people’s lives and live in the dream with their priorities in the right place.

Brad (00:06:04):
Adam and Vanessa Lambert of Bee The Wellness.com Adam and Vanessa here in this fabulous white standup studio in beautiful Venice beach, California.

Vanessa (00:06:17):

Brad (00:06:18):
I got you warmed up. I want you to get right into that again cause I was asking you about the fabulous be the wellness podcast and what’s your, what’s your vision for how it’s clarified recent times? Tell us about that.

Vanessa (00:06:32):
Yeah, well I think when we first started it we, it was mostly Adam and I just supporting our programs and supporting the offerings that we had out there, giving coaching advice and connecting with our audience. And then we got really inspired to bring in guests that we were interested in that we thought would bring interesting conversation or you know, just further exploration to the podcast. And then I was saying that I started to get a little lazy and then I started letting people sort of pitch me on their ideas and started, you know, Oh okay, that might be cool that that might be a cool interview. And what I realized is that it really makes a difference that I, that we select the people we want to have on the podcast that the listeners can feel the difference between us being pitched and having someone on as opposed to us selecting someone and inviting them on.

Adam (00:07:23):
Yeah, yeah, 100% and it’s like there is, there is a percentage obviously that people that pitch and we’re like, well this sounds super cool. I’ve never heard of this person. So it’s like it’s awesome that that happens. But there’s definitely a difference in like the overall vibe of what goes down in the podcast. And I think how it lands for the people listening. If it’s like somebody that’s on a book tour that’s just looking for podcasts to get on and they come on ours and even if it’s super interesting, there’s just something about that dynamic that’s like less authentic.

Vanessa (00:07:53):

Brad (00:07:54):
You guys are those universe energy people I first met. Yeah. The people were gravitating towards your strength training sessions at the Primalcon retreat. It was just magic over there. You hear the giggling and the laughing someones in some other groups on boring presentations, 30 meters away at the beach. What are those guys doing over there? What do they do with that PVC pipe? How did, how did dead lift proper properly using a PVC pipe? That’s no joke. I mean yeah. Yeah and um, I think that was awakening for me cause I tweaked my back a few times and I had to get deep into that form and that perfect mechanics with a lower weight of course. And watching Layla over and over, we filmed her doing it, doing a video. It’s on YouTube and I just like kept repeating it in slow motion and Brian McAndrew and someone who knows what they’re doing. But now I’ve got the hex bar, which I think is made it a lot more protective and yeah. So go order one. This show is sponsored by hex bar unlimited bar.com. Yeah. Have you read the uh, like the, the, the data suggesting that um, the male female host dynamic is like super interesting. Like people like that better?

Vanessa (00:09:07):
No, but you were telling me this.

Brad (00:09:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Bill Simmons grabbed like a female, you know, Bill Simmons, the sports guys got all the sports stuff and he talks about TV shows and the Boston Celtics and like from a very male bent of, you know, uh, crazy commentary going off track and all that. And now like this female’s on there all the time. They probably probably read the same thing, like just works on a certain level.

Vanessa (00:09:31):
You know, everyone naturally likes going back to the energy. They like thinking in the yang. They like the masculine and the feminine. I think that all of us, no matter who we are as listeners, we, there’s something in each side of it that you can relate to. And that pulls out a different perspective for you. So I think that we just, you know, luckily happened to do it and happened to just be a male and a female who decided to do a podcast. And luckily that’s correct.

Adam (00:09:55):
Yeah. Yeah. Well it’s, it’s interesting to think about though, but I mean that is a lot of the feedback that we get. Like for a lot of our longtime listeners are like, we just like listening to you guys banter back and forth about stuff, you know, which is, which is cool. I mean, hopefully it’s actually imparting some level of, I don’t know, information or something, but Hey man, I’ll take it if you just want to listen to us, you know, dynamics.

Brad (00:10:21):
You listen to Casey Neistat’s podcast with his wife? No, the YouTube sensation. So he’s a very prominent YouTube personality and his wife’s an anonymous, you know, she’s been in a few of his videos and so now they have their own podcasts, Couples Therapy. It’s called. And those guys go at it, man. I mean, it’s like unplugged all the way. They’re like arguing and like, you know, I should, because I didn’t want to do this podcast because you’re being such an asshole this week and it’s entertaining. And it’s also, um, they’re, they’re, you know, his whole thing is the daily villa started that and you know, he, he just exposes his life to the camera and it’s, you know, it’s the difference between the manufactured media that we grew up with and had until just a few years ago. And now it’s like, you know, it’s extremely enlightening to hear a real couple talk it out without the sugarcoating. Oh, totally. Not that you guys need to get into that relationship dynamic stuff, but you know, just therapy to come through. Yeah, it comes through. [inaudible]

Vanessa (00:11:18):
well, it’s been, actually, it’s been, one of the biggest things for Adam as we’ve grown in our relationship is actually to have permission to argue, to just have permission to make space for that.

Brad (00:11:27):
Are you saying on, on, on the, on the, on the mic or in general? Just in general. Nice. Here we go. Here we go. Listeners. Ready?

Vanessa (00:11:36):
I grew up with, um, so my mom was divorced and part of the dogma of, of her mindset was that you shouldn’t fight as a couple. So I heard a lot of this like, well, if you don’t get along then maybe you shouldn’t be in the relationship. There was all this stuff. And as we got older and our relationship got older, I was like, dude, you have to fight. You have to get this stuff out. You can’t just shove it away in a corner. So it’s been awesome for us to learn how to fight.

Adam (00:12:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s not like screaming and yelling and carrying on, but it’s like, it’s just that it takes like, I think at the end of the day, if it’s, if you have the Ram or like the energy to, to be able to have a, you know, rational and like adult tone conversation about things, that’s probably better, you know? But like, if you don’t have it, like in the moment, you just still gotta get the information out like [inaudible] or the other, you know. So even if you can’t quite control your, your shits, so to speak, it’s like, it’s, I don’t know, we’ve found anyway for us that it’s just better to get it out there and get it over with.

Vanessa (00:12:42):
Yeah. And not take it so personally in the heat of the moment, you know, it’s like, okay, maybe someone says something in a tone or in a way in the heat of the moment that if they were feeling more rational and maybe had more energy or more sleep or whatever, they wouldn’t have said it that way. But we don’t latch onto it like, and become a victim around this moment. It’s like, okay, well that was a moment. How many other moments are we rational? Are we loving? Are we able to sit down and work through it? So it’s like you just kind of have to leave some space for it though, because you’re not going to be perfect. And every month,

Adam (00:13:11):
yeah, 80 20th yeah. Well, I mean,

Brad (00:13:14):
that’s my followup going on in my head. It’s like, Hey, 80 20th that’s cool. And if it’s 2080 yeah. Honestly, when that’s a moment and there’s another moment and there’s another moment and I’m sorry I called you an effing bitch. I really didn’t mean it sweetie, come here, let’s have some makeup, sex. You know that kind of stuff is like we have, we have to have that openness to free an exchange of dialogue and emotions, but also some kind of parameters where this is how we operate.

Vanessa (00:13:39):
Agree. Totally. That’s a really good point because actually people could hear that and think, Oh well if they do it, maybe it’s not that big of a deal. Yeah,

Brad (00:13:47):
there go Vanessa going off again [inaudible] in the kitchen,

Vanessa (00:13:53):
but it is because I think the majority of the time is really thoughtful and really calm and and communicative and we do a lot of work on ourselves and we do a lot of work on our relationship and so I think for when it is that 20% and I doubt it’s even 20% it’s probably more like five or 10% it’s like we just don’t take it personally. We don’t latch onto it as some big defining thing in our relationship because so much of it is the opposite.

Brad (00:14:20):
Yeah. You have that healthy foundation, which counts for so much. John Gottman relationship expert, one of the best guys out there for a long time, and he says, hell, a healthy longterm successful couples have a 20 to one ratio of positive to negative comments in ordinary life and a five to one ratio during an argument.

Vanessa (00:14:43):
Wow, that’s amazing.

Brad (00:14:44):

Vanessa (00:14:45):
I’m going to have start and I’ll start keeping track.

Brad (00:14:49):
I mean, you can envision a exchange. Where’s the contentious issues being being saying,

Vanessa (00:14:54):

Brad (00:14:55):
I totally want to support your, your dream to go sky diving and you’ve worked so hard and you’re a great provider and you’re so good at saving money and I see that you have the money to go pay for it. Um, and I know you’re safe and you’re fit and you’re all this and I don’t want you to fucking skydive. So there’s five or seven, then we dropped the one in there. It makes for a better discussion then over my, yeah, over my dead parachute. Yeah.

Adam (00:15:22):
Yeah. Here’s the 10 reasons you suck and I’m going to throw parachuting right in there with it.

Vanessa (00:15:27):
Well, I think that, you know, it just takes a certain level of emotional intelligence and emotional intelligence as related to general intelligence. Like how you are about life, how you notice the way that you react to life that you interact with life. And I think that that’s something that, you know, you just have to take personal responsibility at some point with the way you are about things and your relationship is no different. And so, you know, if you are only great at work and you only have, you know, you’re intelligent within the your career path, but nowhere else at some point you have to just expand out that learning scale, escape and start to create some new tools and, and the other parts of your life.

Brad (00:16:10):
Yeah. Freaking hope. So. But there’s so many peak performers that just nail it in one area of life, but they don’t have the Ram as Adam says. Yeah. Perhaps as an as a a excuse, they’re, they’re so focused on their important super-duper career, they don’t have time for, um, partner family. But it seems like if you have all those things in place, you should be able to just turn that dial over into, into another realm.

Vanessa (00:16:35):
Yeah. Well, I mean I think the, the funny thing about it is if you don’t take the time for it, you’re only going to make it more complex because if you don’t make the time for your family, you’re only gonna create more animosity, more negativity, more distance, all these things that are going to be bigger to overcome later on in life. And so it’s almost like, it’s crazy to think you don’t have the Ram because it’s going to require the least amount now on the front end compared to the backend. And I think that’s just what, that’s where the intelligence comes in, right? That’s where like just looking at it intelligently to say, Oh, okay, how can I be wise about this? It’s just like an investment strategy with your money. It’s the same with your energy. Like if I don’t do this right now, it’s only going to be harder later.

Brad (00:17:22):
Faster. Yeah. Same with speaking up. Like you talk about the start of this, you can’t have that happening.

Adam (00:17:27):
Yeah, yeah. That’s an interesting one because, so in my previous life, you know, there were, there were times where to, to perform at that level of a firefighting. Yeah, exactly. And to perform at that level, like there’s, you’re certainly not encouraged to, to go about things diplomatically. You know, it’s not, it’s not a democracy whatsoever. You know, it’s like who’s in charge is who and who’s in charge. And hopefully they take some level of input from the people around them, like the good ones do. But there’s like a, so I’m imagining a person who’s crushing it in that world, you know, and they’re, every decision that they make is their decision to make. And everybody just falls in line with what it is. And they get a lot of positive feedback for it because fundamentally they’re nailing that aspect of their life to be able to flip the switch and come into their family dynamic and not have that level of sort of autonomy to operate and the way that they work can be really challenging. You know what I mean?

Adam (00:18:28):
There’s a reason that the divorce rate in the fire services, well over 50 probably into the 75% range. And this is for multiple divorces. You know, it’s like I worked with so many guys who were on their third there, maybe sometimes their fourth, which at some point you’re like, dude, how about why do you keep doing this? And what part of this is like just have a girlfriend, you know, just just call it, you know, but it’s a, it’s a real thing, you know? And I think you see the similar situation kind of in the high power executive world as well, where they’re the masters of their domain and functioning at that level becomes like the it, it’s just the, it’s like the, the, the measure that the rest of their life is, is held up against. You know, it’s like I crush it here and the reason that I crushed it here is because I don’t allow for any of this bullshit that’s going on.

Adam (00:19:14):
You know, everybody knows exactly what’s expected of them. They perform, you know, and that doesn’t work at home.

Vanessa (00:19:20):
Not for a long with that mindset, maybe not as effective.

Adam (00:19:24):
Yeah. Not as effective. But then it just creates this like this dissonance for the person, you know, and they’re like, wow, okay, so now I have to be this person when I’m at work and I have to be this person when I’m at home. And that’s really challenging to do. So, which of the two things, like where do I suffer more if I’m not the person that I need to be? And almost always it’s at work because that’s where the places is, that’s where you’re earning your income. That’s where your reputation and all of these things get. Your ego gets wrapped up in, you know, so you see people trending towards like, well, if I’m going to prioritize a way to be, I gotta be this way and the person who loves me most, she’s not going to leave me cause she loves me.

Adam (00:20:02):
You know, so she’s going to take the beating on this. You know, and I’m sure it goes both ways. Like, I’m sure there’s, you know, um, high powered women executives out there that are out there that come home and beat their husbands, you know,

Brad (00:20:14):
Figuratively speaking figuratively. Yeah. Well I just had an amazing podcast with John Gray. The uh, the author of men are from Mars. Women are from Venus number one best selling relationship author of all time. And his insights were, were pretty amazing and along these lines. And one of the things is like, this is all new stuff because we had these traditional gender roles that were for centuries, eons back to a hunter gatherer times. We know the women got most of the food that the females and the men were doing, the physical hunting of the animals. And so we come into industrial revolution and it was the man’s workplace world and the women was nurturing, caretaking. And so he talks his new book, uh, Beyond Mars and Venus talks about the hormonal underpinnings of relationship dynamics and what works and what, when things get out of balance. And one of them is like the females in the workplace. It’s a wonderful progress for society, but the workplace is a testosterone dominant.

Brad (00:21:07):
He calls it male dominant, not not to offend a female in the workplace, but it’s a testosterone dominant, competitive, focus driven, solve problems, all these things. So a female in the workplace is going against her estrogen, testosterone, hormonal balance. So she needs to unwind when she gets home, which means she needs to vent to her partner with her partner sitting there and listening quietly, not offering a solution. All those old time Mars and Venus insights and the man needs to constantly nurture and rebuild testosterone. So he can’t be in a relationship where there’s bickering and complaining because the man wants to feel like a super powerful problem solver, crushing it at work, crushing it at home. And so the couple can set these dynamics up where you’re playing to his strengths and you’re playing to her strengths and everything can be wonderful, but we have to recognize, wow, we’re fighting a battle against the gender balance in modern culture.

Vanessa (00:22:01):
Right. Yeah. Again, this comes back to just intelligence, emotional intelligence, right? Because many people wouldn’t even know to think about that. They wouldn’t even think, well, Oh, I’m, you know, I’m going against the cultural or gender norms. Like this is what it takes these days I think is to really look at what’s there for each couple individually and to zoom out and say, okay, what’s our dynamic? What are the things that we’re battling with and what are the tools that we can implement to overcome it or to master this, this piece of our life. Yeah.

Adam (00:22:33):
I wonder how that’s going for him with the, you know, there’s, there’s so much, there’s just so much sort of outrage just ready to be unleashed upon anything. Anybody that says gender and associated with something like we were just talking about right there. You know, I wonder, I wonder how he’s doing with that.

Brad (00:22:51):
because same with like the PC stuff. Yeah. You know, my son’s like, he’s pretty sensitive and into that stuff and you know, he’ll give me a hard time for, for rapping at the start of the podcast cause I’m impersonating or I’m appropriating. Oh. Someone else’s culture. And you know, when I was, um, when, when I was younger, um, there were some different acceptance levels of stuff and everybody would imitate Jimmy Walker dynamite, JJ on the show, um, as a, as a funky black dude with a floppy hat. Right. And he was so funny, he was the funniest guy in America. It’s like, well that’s not that funny now cause you know, it’s an indoctrinated, prejudicial thinking and stuff. You have to be, you have to be more careful extra. But I like when people like that hit hard.

Brad (00:23:37):
Wendy Walsh was on my show, the relationship therapist. And so that’s why we’re sticking on this subject. But she’s saying like, um, Oh the, the top three things a male and a female look for in a relationship, no matter what you say, come out of your mouth. Like number one is sense of humor. Nope, not really because your genetic drives aren’t looking for something else. For female. It’s, um, number one resources. Number two, intelligence. And number three, kindness. So the females want the Ferrari more than anything else. It doesn’t matter if he’s funny or sweet with polite, no resources. Intelligence to go get more resources if he loses his resources. And then kindness is cool to land in there and the man wants number one, youth and beauty. Number two, loyalty. Because fertility is concealed by by humans. So you don’t know if you’re uh, if you’re the father, so to speak, that’s your main genetic drive in life. So you want a female who’s loyal rather than going out and uh, maybe getting impregnated by six other random people. Yeah. And then number three is kindness. Yeah. So yeah, so we, we cut to, we cut to, you know, today’s balancing all this stuff and um, you know, saying everything you got to say in a relationship with loving kindness would be like a goal. Using that emotional intelligence and knowing this is where I think you guys got into some magic there. Like you, you express that you have this baseline level of respect, this foundation. So anything that’s said, even if it’s a little charged, you’re going to back it up a little bit and maybe you’ve figured out like your words, wisdom of strategies going. Okay, I hear ya. I hear ya. Let’s, let’s sit down and talk about this further rather than calm the F down, like things that you should never ever say to a female who’s estrogen imbalance. Right? Yeah. But man, to unwind some of this stuff and realize like my goal, you know, was it had, and with producing a podcast and listening to podcasts, it’s like we want to continue to progress, man. We don’t want to repeat these same mistakes. Otherwise we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re stupid instead of intelligent, literally. Right.

Vanessa (00:25:43):
Well, and I think it’s, you know, it’s actually goes deeper for all of us than we tend to think. And I think that’s what’s been really helpful for Adam and I, is that we really taken our relationship work has taken on a sense where we work deeply on ourselves. Looking at what was the thing that started this behavior way back when, when we were kids. What’s the thing that we’re arguing right now? But where did this start for one of us individually or together? What was the, you know, thing that happened to us in third grade that made this first wall go up or this first reaction and it goes deep. You know, and oftentimes what you’re arguing about in the moment is literally something that was created decades ago. And so I think it just really takes time to, to sift through the files of your life together and go, you know, why do I react that way? Why am I self conscious about that thing? Like where does it come from? And I think that that’s really where the magic has been for us is going and doing that really deep, deep work.

Adam (00:26:44):
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then, and then we’ve been together forever. That’s some point, you know, and I, I’d, it’d be interesting to know what the statistic is on, on marriages based on like when, how old the people were when they got married. You know what I mean? It was like our, do our young marriages more apt to fail than people who get married later in life or what that number is. But cause I could kinda like, I could probably argue either way. I mean, I’ve no idea what it is, but I know for us it’s like we were kids fundamentally when we got married, and fortunately the way that we progressed through it was by kind of growing up together, not growing away from each other, which you could 100% see that would have that. How that would happen. I mean, I’m a completely different person now, 42 than I was a 25 like no doubt. And so it was Vanessa, you know? And then fortunately,

Brad (00:27:34):
shit, how old are you, Vanessa?

Vanessa (00:27:35):
I’m 40 I just,

Brad (00:27:36):
Oh my God. Yeah, I mean you were like 20 something when I, when I, when I saw you at primal, I was like 2009 maybe it was 10 years ago. Oh my gosh. It’s crazy. We’re all grown. Okay. All right. Yeah, you guys look good. Let’s say you look the same as when I saw,

Adam (00:27:57):
yeah, we just keep clicking away. You know, like a year after year. It’s like,

Vanessa (00:28:01):
Whoa, there’s one more and.

Adam (00:28:03):
they go faster too, for whatever reason. But yeah, I mean if you, if you can find it within yourself to grow along with and in support of your partner, it’s a, you know, that, that’s what we’ve been fortunate enough to be able to cultivate is like literally we both recognize we’re turning into different people. And I think it was who’s the guy that wrote the prophet? No, no, no. The Prophet. The Prophet. Yeah. So there was a, there was a passage in that book or like short list of insights or whatever that, whatever you want to call that, where he talked about marriage and how the marriage should be looked, should look, be looked at like a house where there’s two columns supporting the house, you know, the husband and the wife. And then the closer together the columns are, the less stable the house is. And so you need the separation and distance between each other and you both have to be able to stand on your own for it to, to stand up. And I read that probably as part of my required reading or early on in our relationship and that, that piece really stuck with me.

Brad (00:29:05):
Cause I was any joke, Adam, is that everybody recommended reading?

Vanessa (00:29:13):
There was a list. Yeah,

Adam (00:29:15):
we just had the James Redfield who wrote the Celestin prophecy on the pod.

Brad (00:29:19):
Oh nice. Right on. Yeah.

Adam (00:29:21):
And that in that book was another one to kind of in that, that, that same time frame. And you know, I’ve been really fortunate in our relationship, the Vanessa is just, you know, she doesn’t put up with a lot for very long, but it’s not just criticism, it’s like, look, here’s some things that I think would help, you know, you see things my way this great. Like I’m, I’m a lifelong learner and I read like a lot, you know, so it’s like you want to give me a book about something that you think is going to be helpful. I’m definitely gonna read it. You know? And so The Prophet and self esteem prophecy were two of those things. I was like, Oh, okay. Just kind of opens up my, you know, or opened up my thought process on like how the shifts of energy and interaction between people and all of this stuff plays out.

Brad (00:30:06):
And the third book was, uh, shut the fuck up, one of the best seller list now. Oh unfuck yourself. There you go. Merry Christmas. My love prophecy and I’m fuck yourself. And here’s another one. Make your fucking bed cause I always have a C in there.

Adam (00:30:26):
Well isn’t that a Jordan Peterson’s new book? The 12 rules. Really? Yeah. Basically like rule one, make your bed. You can’t make your bed every day like you need to do. Don’t worry about what else was going on with the world.

Brad (00:30:36):
Yeah, I call that one out and challenge it right there. Just like all the, you know, all the hype or subjected to now and all the, all the gurus telling us how to live and how you can be almost as good as me but not quite if you do everything I say and it gets to be too much. It’s like so much content coming in and like you can easily feel diminished. Like when you look at social media and there’s people on the beach with their glass and your, you know, raking leaves or whatever. Um, so like making your bed is this magical life changing thing. And then in many European countries the custom is to leave the bed unmade all day and they’ve done scientific studies showing that the microbes escape and allow the gases to circulate and make it more healthy rather than trapping all those mini farts under the covers every morning by making your bed. So Brad Kearns is saying, I mean there may be a lot of good insights in the bestselling book of that title. I don’t know about it. I want to trash that ball. It might be a gateway to saying be responsible and set goals like physically the physical act of making your bed, eh, you know, if you want or if you don’t want, you can still be a tidy person that’s productive all day.

Vanessa (00:31:45):
It’s just about creating systems that you’re willing to stick to. Because I do think that from chaos, obviously some creativity can spring forth, but you can’t be in that space all the time if you actually want to be effective. Like there does have to be structure and commitment around the way you do your day. And so maybe that’s what people are talking about with the bed is just, you know, creating your life in a way where you have goals or you have things that you’re committed to that you follow through.

Brad (00:32:12):
With Vanessa is staring right at me, my eyes are darting around cause she’s talking, she’s coming right into my heart, pulling it out of my chest and speaking to it and in an emphatic voice. But you’re, you’re talking to me. I’m listening cause that’s big one. I mean, um, you can, you can get that creativity run wild. I mean, yeah.

Vanessa (00:32:31):
Yeah, I know cause I’m, I’ve been that person. I mean I am. Yeah. I’m that creative person. And so, but with, if you stay within that creative space all the time, all you do is just create more chaos at some point. You have to take that creativity and you have to understand how to, how to create structure around it in order to make something possible with it. This has been the biggest challenge for me and I think I’m getting better and better out of it. But the reason I am is because I’ve learned how to commit to systems. And if you just don’t, if you don’t have any systems, any structure in your life, then eventually you’re just going to feel the chaotic energy of all that creativity. And it just, it’s beautiful. We need it, we need that part of us and we want to nurture it. But at some point you have to put the container around it to actually make it into something beautiful that people can relate to and that they can experience from you.

Brad (00:33:26):
What’s an example where you applied a systematic approach to a creative idea?

Vanessa (00:33:31):
Well, you know, I am so Adam and I kind of have different seats in our business and I, I’m the, um, what’s the visionary is, is really what it comes down to, which is just a way of saying like, I’m the idea person because that’s what I love. I love coming up with ideas. And so the retreats and all the events that we run is a really good example of that because I come up with these awesome concepts. Wouldn’t it be amazing to take a group to Peru and hike, you know, do the Salkantay trail and hike to Machu Picchu and you know, it’s all this great creative fodder, but how do you actually put that into action? And so it turns out that you have to create the systems, like what is the actual, what, what are the dates? What are the actual requirements for this?

Vanessa (00:34:16):
How do you know, how much does it cost? How many people can we take? What, you know, what kind of training do we need to be able to accomplish that? And Adam’s really helpful with me and has helped me get more structured in this because you know, he’s more of the engineer mind. So he’s very helpful in getting me kind of laid out or lined out on things so that then I can take action. But you know, I can sit around and think about all the amazing trips that would, that there could be to take people on. But at some point I have to take action and create structure to make it happen.

Adam (00:34:48):
Yeah. Lots of spreadsheets,

Vanessa (00:34:49):
lots of spreadsheets.

Brad (00:34:51):
Right. And methodically tracking things, which I identify as one of my weakness. Like, um, you know, I’ve now done 50 podcasts and how, how do they compare? What’s the download, what are the trends, what are the main topics? I don’t know. But some of my favorites were Vanessa and Adam, John Gray, Mia Moore show right up there. Anyway, so I totally liked that blend. I liked that point. And then you guys have two people so you can get in yang net all day long.

Vanessa (00:35:19):
Yeah. And you know, I think it’s important for people to find that counterbalance. So if that doesn’t all exist within you, maybe you have a business partner or maybe you have a business coach or maybe you have someone that helps to create that structure because that’s not your default setting. And so I don’t think that necessarily, if it’s not your strong suit, you should force yourself into mastering it to the point where you’re sick about it, but maybe get masterful enough where you find someone who can help you get organized or you find a system that works well enough to get you organized. But if you just let that stuff run rampant, then you actually end up being more dissatisfied about your creativity because it’s always disappointing. You have all these great ideas and all this great energy and it looks so beautiful in your mind, but it never is created in reality that way. And then you get disappointed. And that’s just like a point of diminishing returns, you know, a negative feedback loop.

Brad (00:36:15):
I love it. It’s time for a deep breath. So also, there’s maybe a maybe more commonplace than it was in the past, but you have this dynamic duo here. So you’re, you’re working and living life together. And I wonder, uh, pros and cons. Like what are you, what are your observations?

Adam (00:36:39):
Well, so it’s actually kind of an interesting study for us because like I said before, when I worked for the fire department, I was gone almost like if we totaled it up over the 22 years, I was probably gone 50% of that time. Like not, not in the home, not spending the night there.

Brad (00:36:55):
Get the complete spectrum here. Yeah.

Adam (00:36:57):
And then and, and often not really reachable. You know what I mean? So it’s like, not like I’m out on off on a business trip.

Brad (00:37:03):
We’re going to Skype tonight. I didn’t know what kind of my, exactly. a firebreak number 14 yeah, exactly. On the past,

Adam (00:37:14):
literally all the cell towers burned down.

Brad (00:37:17):
What kind of excuse is that, but this is like, come on, get it together. I’ll do for

Adam (00:37:24):
that. But, so we’ve, we’ve gone from that world where like literally gone all the time too and worked together in that world as well for the last four, five years realistically to now since July. I’m home full time. Like we haven’t spent more than two days apart I think since July, which is like, we’ve never done that in the 15 years that we’ve been married, you know? And so it’s an interesting study actually to see. And it was, it was one of the things that both of us were kind of most concerned about with me leaving that job and, and coming into the business full time and you’re like, well, we’ve never been together this, this often, you know, for this long. But it’s actually, it’s been working really well, like a, so much of the, um, I don’t know, I guess the lack of it or the loss of momentum in what we’re doing, both with our relationship and with the business and all of the things going on that would happen when I left and went to work, you know, necessarily happened when I left and went to work. It doesn’t exist anymore. So it’s like now that time that I was gone fundamentally that space is, and time is eaten up in us getting to do stuff together, you know, so like we’re

Adam (00:38:36):
still working on the business the same amount of time, but now we have time to just kinda be together and chill, which didn’t exist before. It was like I was at work and then I was home and when I was home it was work. Work, work, work, work until I left, you know, and now there’s some room to breathe, you know, which is nice.

Vanessa (00:38:51):
Yeah. And it’s like, for me, uh, I was a sort of probably opposite in terms of like when he would leave, it’s almost like I would turn off the emotional switch because you only can miss someone for so long. For so many years of your life, you’re just like, it’s not a fun place to live. It’s not a fun place to be. Like, Oh, he’s leaving again for half the week. It’s like I would tend after a while. I just tend to just kind of turn the emotions off like, okay, he’s, he’s gone. Yeah. Like they just don’t think about it because otherwise you’re just in like suck land about it. Him being gone all the time. So in a way it would be really difficult because then he would come home and I, it’s like, Oh yeah, I have to turn my emotions back on and now you’re in my space and I have my whole life without you.

Vanessa (00:39:35):
But now you’re here and it’s, it was actually way more awkward than it was like a pressure release. So now it’s just so much better because we’re together and then we can choose like, Oh, I want a little space by myself. Cool. I can go do something and then be excited that you’re home when I get home. And so I think it was just, it’s a lot more healthy. And I think it’s actually one of the reasons that so many, um, people within the fire department, the relationships are strained because so many women do do this. They have their own life, they have their own sort of system and circuit, and then the husband shows up and it’s like, Oh, you’re here, but how long are you going to be here for? And you know, it’s, it’s a very awkward thing. So I think for us it’s just been like, it’s allowed us to be even more loving and more connected.

Brad (00:40:21):
Good answer.

Vanessa (00:40:24):
So, cause we were worried because a kid could go the other way. Yeah. I hope this works out well.

Brad (00:40:30):
You seem to have made it work for those years. When you had the realities of a, of a first responder career and so forth. Um, so possibly there’s some good attitudes behind the surface. Cause I, I, I feel like, um, there’s times when it doesn’t work in both directions. Yeah. You know, uh, commonly the person retires from the workplace and the man’s around the house all day and the wife is going crazy and tell him to go get another job. But they’d be looking forward to this day for so long and, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s tough.

Adam (00:41:02):
It’s, yeah. And it’s real. It’s real man. I mean, we see it all the time, you know, just getting, like later on in my career, guys that I’ve been working with start to retire, you know, a couple of people that are a little bit older than me, you know, and they, they’re gone for maybe six months and then they’re back and you’re like, what happened? I’m like, I just couldn’t do it. You know, I can’t spend this much time at home. You’re like, wow, okay.

Vanessa (00:41:24):
Oh and I have like a lot around this because it’s, I think that a lot of times, you know, intimacy, there’s almost a lack of intimacy in a way in a lot of these relationships because they’ve started out with being separate a lot of the times. And oftentimes men choose these jobs because they’re uncomfortable being very intimate. Like the intimacy is difficult for them. So a lot of times they choose these careers where they’re separate because it’s uncomfortable for them to really dig into those pieces of themselves. And you know, I’m sure there’s a lot of firemen and police officers and whatever, that’s not the case, but it’s something that I’ve seen and I was a firefighter, so like I’ve been within it. I understand you could see these, you know, almost this level of discomfort for these men to be deeply embedded in their families and in their relationships. It’s more comfortable for them to be with their boys

Brad (00:42:16):
Uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, I mean it doesn’t have to be firefighter, police to be the lawyer or long working hours person who then goes to the card games on Tuesday in the gym on Wednesday and the golf course and all that. Just avoidance. Yeah,

Vanessa (00:42:34):
avoidance. And it takes a certain, again, it comes back to that emotional intelligence like are you, does it make you uncomfortable in those, in, in the intimacy of your relationship and you know, and it’s not about just sex, it’s about like the deeply intimate connection in your life. And so I think that’s something that a lot of men have to learn. They have to cultivate or else it’s just easier to go. I’m just going to know, push that aside.

Adam (00:42:59):
Yeah. Well it’s hard to, it’s hard to separate, you know, and this is, this is something I know it happens in within the first responder world and obviously it happens in the military, but there’s, there’s levels of stresses and things that you go through like life events that you experience with your work family. Like with the people that, whether it’s your platoon, whether it’s your fire station, whether it’s your partner, if you’re a cop, however that works out, you go through shit with those people that you do not go with through with your family, hopefully. You know what I mean? Cause uh, you know, and there’s also this tendency in that, in that environment. And I think it cuts both ways. Like sometimes it’s the person who is in the job and sometimes it’s the significant other at home who shuts down that level of that communication.

Adam (00:43:45):
But if you don’t have the ability to talk to your significant other about the kinds of things that are happening and you’re experiencing at work, like if that gets shut down anywhere along the line, then all of the sudden the only place that that person feels comfortable is with the people that they’ve experienced this with. You know? And, and that happens a lot. And the same thing happens for the person at home because they’ve got experiences happening in their, in their day to day world. You know, it’s like, uh, and you know, not to like demean it or whatever, but it’s like, yeah, we were on our way to soccer practice and you know, John, Johnny got hit by a car and you know, lost a skateboard and this thing and there’s this like, thing that happened that the other person wasn’t part of, you know. And so now if that dynamic of communication about what this kind of stuff is like doesn’t exist, then you put up another barrier between, you know, for that kind of stuff.

Adam (00:44:39):
And it’s, it’s, it’s a tricky one, you know. And I mean, like I, I worked with a lot of people who never talked about anything that happened at work at home because, and then like, this is verbatim from guys mouth. Like, yeah, well when I first started dating my wife, I’d come home and tell her about stuff and she’s like, I don’t want to hear about that. That’s terrible. I don’t want to hear about that. So he, one time she said that, and 20 years go by and he never says anything ever again. And she’s like, I don’t understand why you’re so distant from me. And he’s like, well, you told me when you were 19 you told me you didn’t want it to hear about this terrible traffic accident I was at. And he’s like, well shit man, you know your life. Yeah. It’s like you gotta you don’t want to hear about my life then.

Adam (00:45:18):
Right. And that’s how, and that’s just kind of how it gets embedded and you’re like, okay, well I guess you know, and especially not to like harp on this stuff too much, but there’s often a feeling of shame around having these things impact you. So like in the, in the fire service especially, and it’s getting better now, but it’s like suck it up, buttercup. People die all the time. Like, why is this? Why is this impacting you? You know? And when you’re brand new and all the guys you’re working with have been doing it for 15 or 20 years, they’re salty and crusty and like, they don’t even remember what that, what just happened on that call. But it was the first time you ever did CPR and had a person die and you’re having a very different experience than those guys are. You know, and the feedback you get is whatever, man, go to sleep, tomorrow’s another day, we’re going to do it again, you know, and then to go home and kind of get the same thing or like I don’t want to hear about that, can really close that stuff down. You know, it’s tough to tough to get out of that spiral, you know?

Vanessa (00:46:13):
And these, I mean the, like you said, this is you know, kind of acute circumstances, but this happens in every everyday life and all careers, all of this stuff happens in relationships all the time. And so yeah, it all just comes back to that like being keenly aware about how you are about things, you know, do I make space for my partner to, to share with me who he is, what his day’s about and or do I just, am I so self absorbed and you know, we’re all so busy. I don’t even mean that as an insult. We’re just, we’re so busy dealing with what we have at hand that it’s often hard to make that extra space because we don’t even feel like we have enough space to get done what we need to get done.

Adam (00:46:54):

Vanessa (00:46:55):
And so it just, it takes a lot of presence in your life to be aware of these little moments that turn into big ways of being.

Brad (00:47:05):
So to get that space and rebalance that life, we really should go on retreat.

Adam (00:47:12):
Yes. Actually.

Brad (00:47:13):
So you guys have had this interesting journey in the primal paleo scene, dating back to kind of the very beginnings of the hotbed of Chico, California. So I want to hear about that and how all the kind of emanated out of there and went on to long careers spreading the word and how it’s gone for you guys.

Adam (00:47:36):
Yeah. So, yeah. So we started, we started training with Rob Wolf at Nor Cal Strength and Conditioning prior to it being CrossFit Norco. So whenever that was that I had to be like 2005 or six, something like that. And, um, it was, it’s funny because when we first started training, they’re like, he didn’t even mention like paleo wasn’t really a thing. Like I think our detainees book was out. Um, but it wasn’t like a word that you were familiar with in a 2000 perspective. Yeah, there was, yeah. It wasn’t.

Brad (00:48:06):
Loren Cordain’s book was out in 2002,

Adam (00:48:08):
but yeah,

Brad (00:48:09):
the movement was nowhere.

Adam (00:48:10):
Yeah. It just, it just wasn’t really happening. So you go and start training and Rob would just sort of like start to incrementally introduce concepts like, yeah.

Adam (00:48:20):
Like w. hat you’re eating might actually be influencing how you’re performing. You know, it’s like what, what is this madness?

Brad (00:48:25):
You know, gels here. Sorry.

Adam (00:48:28):
No, yeah. Is there any, is there anything that’s gonna make me really strong and, uh, I can, you know, recover better and I don’t have to change anything about the way I eat. No. But, um, he was really kinda obviously instrumental in shifting our focus on that stuff. And Vanessa actually, um, when we were training there, she said Chico is a agricultural hotbed, right? And so if you suffer from seasonal allergies, like Chicos probably going to be brutal for you. And that was exactly the situation with Vanessa when she moved there, it was like, it was terrible. And actually her aunt said, Hey, you know what, you should try cutting gluten and dairy from your diet and this will help with your seasonal allergies. And I was like, that’s bullshit. You know, which doctor, what could this have to do with anything? And she, she actually came home from training one day at the gym and she’s like, Rob says, cutting gluten and dairy. Like exactly what’s up.

Vanessa (00:49:19):
Yeah. He said, my diet’s legit. Yeah. I know Adam was really sad about that moment and I was like, you know, feeling so teacher’s pet at that point. Yeah.

Adam (00:49:32):
Like at the end of the day, that was really the introduction to it. And then it was, you know, Rob started doing seminars and stuff for CrossFit and um, I got to participate in sort of the betas of some of those at the gym and really started to get into this. And it was like, man, this really makes a lot of sense. You know, like everything that you’re saying here makes a tremendous amount of sense. And we started making these changes in our, in our life. And then as the gym grew and people started coming in, when we started working there and training there, you, you could just see it immediately when people would come in and they’d be training for maybe a month or so and they’re getting some level of results and then all of a sudden they make the switch in their diet and it’s like the, it’s an, you know, panacea so to speak.

Adam (00:50:13):
And it, um, so that really just got kind of ingrained in us and I started taking what we were doing at NorCal and trying to apply it to work well for my guys at the fire station, I was a captain at the time, so I had a station of dudes that I was, you know, responsible for keeping healthy and staying fit enough to do the job. And we just started massaging this stuff out and it was like, yeah, this is, this is the jam. You know, like, this is what, this is kind of what you need to be doing. You know, you need to eat meat and you need to eat vegetables and you need to not eat these other things at least for a period of time and a train responsibly. And that ethos just spiraled into our business fundamentally. You know? I mean, there’s a lot of steps along along the way.

Vanessa (00:50:56):
Yeah. And it just permeated the culture of the gym and you know, that that time in our lives was so important because we were CrossFitting for one, which basically means suffering. We were suffering deeply in our workouts and doing really hard things physically, but we were doing ’em with people in our gym who became great friends because, you know, it’s just like anything that you do that is hard, when you do it together, it bonds you. And so we had this group of friends who was eating the same way we were eating training the same way we were, and we were having these really intense experiences together. And from that culture just sprouted out a lot of amazing business opportunities and ideas. And you know, Sarah Cordoza came out of that time and Glen Cordoza who’s written all the books and Katie Cordoza and you know, just our whole group started to kind of figure out how we could take this information and the success that we’d had with each other and with the, our experience with Rob and kind of mold it into our own offering into the world. And that, that was when we moved to LA when Rob introduced us to Mark. And that’s how we met you and you know, just kind of continued to spiral into, you know, how can we make a difference? How can we take this energy and this success that we’ve had and, and turn it around and pay it forward and what can be our unique contribution in that sense.

Adam (00:52:20):
Yeah. Yeah. And a big piece of it is the community aspect. I mean, it was, I think for both of us, it was the, the only time in our lives that we had fundamentally stuck to a consistent strength and conditioning regimen and a consistent nutrition plan for years on end without it seeming like it was a thing. You know, it’s like all of a sudden this is just how we are, you know? And a big piece of that was the community. Just like Vanessa said, it’s like these people, we train together, we eat together, we’re doing all of this stuff together. And so fostering that community was a big part of the, the impetus for be the wellness and how our coaching programs work, which are fundamentally community coaching. I mean we work with individuals but it’s everybody together in the same experience. And that makes a really big difference for folks who are remote and isolated. And you’re out there and you’re the only one who’s like, I want to give this a shot. And you’re surrounded by people who just don’t support it. You know, you need something to kind of to, to foster that. And then with the retreats, it was really just an extension of that community. Now we’ve built this community and now let’s bring everybody in person to meet each other and really do this.

Vanessa (00:53:30):
Yeah. And use that health and fitness and, and you know, motor skill or whatever it is that we’re cultivating within the strength and conditioning and the programming, like how can we come, come together and use it in a fun and unique way? And that’s really where the retreats of blossom from is just, you know, we always say like, what mountain do you want to climb? Or what river do you want to raft? What do you want to do with the health? Because you’re not going to get a blue ribbon for like, Oh you, you are healthy, good for you. The real prize is in the how you use it. And so that’s always been an important piece of our business and our offering is how can we get people out using this physical ability that they’ve been working so hard to cultivate in these life changing amazing experiences.

Brad (00:54:13):
So are you doing some adventures, some physical adventures on the retreat and blending that with lectures, workshops for different stuff? What is is like?

Vanessa (00:54:23):
Yeah, we, I mean, honestly we have so many various offerings, but um, you know, for instance, we’re taking a group and doing a 10 day hike to Machu Picchu in Peru. So we’re on the trail for seven days. We do Salkantay trail, we crest up over 15,000 feet. You know, it’s, uh, it’s a, it’s a pretty intense, rigorous, um, you know, seven day hike that we do. And so that’s one of our offerings. We do a retreat in Costa Rica every year where we take people surfing, whitewater rafting, hiking. We kinda just combine all these different, uh, things that are accessible in Costa Rica cause it’s just like an adult playground. And then, um, you know, on the flip side of it, we were just in Africa and we did an African Safari, which wasn’t necessarily as physically demanding, but was more just about going out and connecting with our tribe and doing just something incredible and having an experience of a lifetime together.

Vanessa (00:55:15):
So we kind of run the gamut, but it’s all about having that community. If you’re going to go to Africa and you’re going to be on Safari, why not be with the people that you’re are in your online community, where you’re doing your training, you’re talking about health and fitness, you know that these are your people. And you know, having these awesome paleo meals and knowing that you’re going to be fed really well and taking really good care of, it’s like, it just makes these once in a lifetime experiences even more special because you’re sharing them with these people that are your friends, they feel like family.

Brad (00:55:48):
So you’re bringing the food along, you’re setting them up with healthy meals, whether it’s Africa or Costa Rica or Peru. Yeah, yeah. It’s pretty much a chicken, a lot of bags or something.

Vanessa (00:55:58):
Yeah. So oftentimes there’s in house chefs wherever we go, and we just make sure that the menus are created in a way that supports the dietary agreements that we have. And um, or we have a private chef that we work with a lot and we’ll bring her along to our events as well. So it just depends on where we’re going and what the situation is.

Adam (00:56:17):
Yeah. And maybe not surprisingly, once you get outside the States, it’s actually a lot easier to eat paleo and primal, you know what I mean? Like what’s their food, you know,

Brad (00:56:28):
That was our pull quote for the show. Yeah. Note to Dan audio engineer. I mean how trippy is that? Yeah, yeah. It’s so much easier when you get out of the States.

Adam (00:56:38):
Yeah, and to like really sort of seal that that point to some degree in Peru we had set the, the dietary restrictions and we’d set all of this stuff up and when we got there it was like looking through the menus and all of this. We’re like, wait a second, what is this like why is, why do we have gluten free pasta on the menu? Like what is going on here when in reality like what’s available to be eaten here is meat and vegetables and some and 700 varieties of potato, which is kind of handy. And what they were doing was trying to meet our requirements by shifting their natural normal diet, which actually met the requirements right here come to the Americans.

Adam (00:57:16):
The Americans were going to, you know, we’re going to create some stuff. Yeah they don’t. Yeah, they don’t, they don’t eat gluten so we’re going to have to use gluten free pasta. And we were like, wait a second, what are those guys eating? Like, that’s what we want, like this, this is what we meant by this. You know, and obviously they were, it was a simple problem to solve and get that sorted out. But it’s an interesting thing to think about in the, in the grand scheme, these sort of more traditional cultures are often eating so much closer to what, you know, what we’re striving for and paying arguably twice as much to do in the States that you would be to shop at 7/11.

Brad (00:57:51):
If corporate forces have not descended upon these poor countries and slammed the stuff home. I go to Sayulita, Mexico and now it’s coming up in popularity, but sleepy surfing village outside of Puerto Vallarta. And you go to the restaurants there and have some of the most incredible food and delicious, nutritious. There’s a breakfast buffet with where they have the pumpkin and the other vegetables and the meat all together. And then you go around the corner and there’s a frickin might as well be 7/11. It’s a convenience store with the bright light contrast with the, the village feel. And it’s just so it’s disgraceful what we’ve done.

Vanessa (00:58:30):
Yeah, yeah, it’s

Brad (00:58:31):
leave them alone. They’d be fantastic. But instead we’re modernizing their experience and getting them, getting them sick.

Vanessa (00:58:37):
Yeah. It gives us so much compassion and just so much love for the American struggle for diet and health because we really, we aren’t just being lazy, we aren’t just being all of those things like we have to fight extra hard to be healthy here. And it really is, it’s really tough because you can say no to 90% of stuff and still be infiltrated with crap. You know, like it, it’s literally like you’re fighting a constant battle against everything that’s coming at you, whether it’s, you know, in the water, in your cosmetics or in your food or whatever it is. There’s just this constant onslaught of things that are not natural for us. And so even you’re trying to be hyper vigilant, there’s still like 20% of the stuff that’s getting through and it’s, it’s really tough. The battle is no joke here in America.

Adam (00:59:30):
Yeah. Yeah. It’s really true. And in fact, it’s a big part of one of the coaching programs that we just launched with the body mind roadmap is helping people navigate even paleo and primal now. Because even even being in that category, you know, and being like, well, I’m primal or I’m paleo and not that there’s a paleo aisle yet in most stores, but we’re getting close to that chock full of processed products that check the box because they’re lacking specific ingredients, you know? And so now we’re checking all these paleo primal boxes and now it’s not the case. Now all of a sudden this requiring a sort of deeper level of education and understanding around nutrition that for the individual to really Wade their way through paleo and primal now in order to be, you know, still kind of meeting the same intent that was there before all the products were created to backfill, you know, the lack of gluten free donuts.

Brad (01:00:29):
You tend to model ancestral diet is being washed away in packaging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Guys, now you’ve got to tell me about this subject. I know nothing about, but it seems to becoming very popular in progressive health circles and elsewhere. Uh, but the, um, the, the, the Ayahuasca Retreat, the, the spiritual journey, right. I get them smile. They’re all into this. Yeah, I understand you’re leading a retreat with that specific, uh, centerpiece coming up. So what’s the scoop here?

Vanessa (01:01:01):
You know, it’s interesting cause Adam and I are both from Northern California. You’re from Northern Cal.

Brad (01:01:05):
I’m from LA, right here. Oh you actually, you are, but you’ve been living there a long time.

Vanessa (01:01:08):
Yeah, you’ve been there awhile. Um, and we’re, you know, from even a little deeper Mendocino and Lake County, which is just, you know, it’s a little bit more Bohemian a little more hippie. And so we kinda grew up in a culture where a lot of people grew marijuana, a lot of people did psychedelics. It was kind of somewhat of a cultural norm. And so, you know, I started doing psychedelics that are really young age. You know, probably 14. I did my first, I ate mushrooms for the first time. And it’s not that I’m,

Brad (01:01:39):
that was for one of your finals in middle school. They said, okay, kids, we’re going to do the mushrooms tomorrow. Now it wasn’t that bad in Mendocino, but for those of you unfamiliar, this coastal County in Northern California has been the, the marijuana growing capital for many years prior to legality, but way out in the forest it was a big deal and still is now. You know, I guess there’s more.

Vanessa (01:02:00):
Yeah. With that comes sort of a culture and a lot of that culture is around, you know, other, other substances. And so, you know, I’m not recommending that kids do it that young. It’s like, obviously that worked out for me. Okay. But it just was one of those things where we had access and a lot of people were doing it. And so, um, I just remember the first time that I did psychedelic mushrooms, I had a real clear vision that all of the things that seemed so important to me and like such a big deal in my 13, 14 year old mind were suddenly so minimal. And there was such a bigger vision of what it meant to be human and what was important in life. And a lot of that had to do with just being loving, being grounded, being centered and being, um, available in your life for the magic that is there.

Vanessa (01:02:51):
And this is a pretty profound experience for a young person to have. But I’m so grateful because it model, it molded a lot of the way that I created my life as I got older. And I actually stayed in touch with psychedelics through my years and you know, tried various things growing up and kind of took a break in my adult years because just busy and working and just kinda got away from it. But um, it seems as though psychedelics and Ayahuasca and magic mushrooms and all of these things are sort of making a comeback in terms of people realizing the tremendous emotional and cognitive benefits that can come from trying them from, from having facilitated experiences. And so Ayahuascawas, it’s kind of the mothership of psychedelics. It’s definitely like the big whamajama. It’s it, you know, you want to be in a guided, safe place.

Speaker 7 (01:03:46):
You want to have a shaman or someone who’s very familiar with the medicine. And we’ve been lucky enough to have those experiences. And this last year we went to Costa Rica to a place called Rhythmia where they lead, um, guided Ayahuasca retreats and had an incredible life changing experience and just felt even more dedicated to fall in alignment with helping people find their way to these tools. And again, back to that emotional intelligence. It really helps you to understand your mindscape and understand where you’re coming from emotionally and sort of weed through the things that are getting in the way of the person that you really want to be. And um, heal some of the broken places in your heart and soul so that you can move forward as a more whole person. And so for me, that’s been, I won’t speak for Adam all let him, you know, kind of speak his own, his own side of the story. But it’s been such a wonderful benefit to my heart and soul. And I just love being in alignment with helping people to discover that.

Adam (01:04:47):
Ma’am. So I think like one of the things.

Brad (01:04:50):
that it’s really dangerous. Don’t do it. Yeah, exactly.

Adam (01:04:53):
Yeah. But, but it’s probably not for you, so don’t, don’t try. Um, but I mean it is, it is important to say though, that’s like, you know, and it seems like it should go without saying, but unfortunately it doesn’t that like ultimately sharing your own experiences about something should have no bearing on how you go about living your life, you know? But how else do you talk about this stuff? You know? So we certainly don’t recommend like that people go and do it. You know, it’s like this isn’t something that I say everybody should do, but there’s no doubt that there’s some benefit to be had for the people who are called by it, for lack of a better term and are interested in doing it. And, and the most important thing in all of that is to be experimenting with this stuff in a safe place that’s reputable, that has a good track record and medical support.

Adam (01:05:49):
And it’s in a country where it’s legal and the, you know what I mean? You gotta just check all of these boxes of, of safety and sort of just, you know, I don’t know what, what the right word is, but you just have to get it put in the right container, you know? And from my perspective, and I think the, the Rythmia is like the place that has really nailed that. I mean, I’m sure that there are many more, but that’s the one that we’re familiar with. And like, from my perspective with this stuff, it’s like, you know, my, I’m super analytical, like I overthink almost everything, you know, to, to the nth degree. And it has served me well in a lot of ways, but it’s a, it’s not a very good way to get to know your own mind, you know, it has been my experience, like analyzing your own thoughts just leads to.

Brad (01:06:33):
rumination, health consequences of modern times.

Adam (01:06:37):
Yeah, exactly. You’re just, you’re just chasing this stuff around and around and, and without any real way to sort of step back and view that process, um, you’re, you’re just going to be chasing your tail. You know what, at least that was certainly my experience with it. And I will say that Ayahuasca was one thing that allowed me to step back and see what’s going on. And so like when you’re going through this loop in your head and you’re like, yeah, but this is how it is, but this is how it is. But this is how it is. You don’t, it’s very difficult to say, but what if it’s not? And I’ll ask a very says it very clearly, like I’m like, but no, this is it. This is it. And it’s like, but what if it isn’t? And you’re like, Oh shit, what if it isn’t?

Adam (01:07:13):
And then all of the sudden there’s this entire other world of possibility of how you think about things, how things from your past affect you, how, how you want to move forward with the way that you process the information around you. And the things that you’re worried about just opens up and you get to pick what parts of it you want to keep. But it’s like, it just shakes up the snowglobe so to speak to a point where you know, you, you have access to a perspective that wasn’t there before, you know? And that’s, yeah, that’s my experience with it and.

Brad (01:07:45):
Trip out on that stuff. Yeah.

Vanessa (01:07:47):
Yeah. And I mean, and again, it isn’t for everybody and well, I mean,

Brad (01:07:52):
I mean we want, we want you to be safe. All that stuff. It’s [inaudible], it’s hallucinogenic, whatever. But, um, why are you couching an ad? Is there a reason?

Vanessa (01:08:01):
Well, if you actually do have, um, history of mental health issues in your family, like particularly males between the age, I think of like 16 and 22, if you have schizophrenia or anything that runs in your family, you need to be aware of that. So there are some actual um, you know, some things. Yeah, some contraindications if you’re, if you’ve been on antidepressants it’s definitely, especially SSRI there’s a huge contraindication especially with um, with Ayahuasca. So there are some real things to consider and to weigh out. And the best thing you can do is really do the research for what you think you might want to try. Um, some of the safeties or you know, some of the, like for instance, nobody’s ever overdosed on mushrooms. So for all intents and purposes it’s a pretty safe thing to try. But you would want to go and do research and read about it.

Vanessa (01:08:55):
And if you have, if you’re on any medications or if you’ve had any depression issues, if you’ve had any of that kind of stuff in your life, you would want to really take a fine tooth comb through the data out there and see if something like that is a good idea for you. And again, like Adam said, you know, or find a safe place or it’s legal. Um, this is one of the things that we love about Rhythmia is that there’s a fully licensed medical staff and it’s completely legal and in the country of Costa Rica. So you, you know, you, they get your medical history, they find out what exactly is going on with you to see if it is a right fit for you. So you know, I think it’s just one of those things where you have to take a lot of personal responsibility, but if you are called to it and there is like this intuitive thing that happens where people just are like, this sounds interesting to me, I’m curious what’s there for me, then I think it can be a wonderful tool to explore.

Brad (01:09:49):
Descriptions may make anyone courious. You could have been talking about reading the self esteem prophecy, but you’re talking about tripping out Peru. Uh, but so if I, if I checked all those boxes and pass my physical and it was at the safe place, would you strongly recommend it to me or would would you see certain, certain people, their sticks too far up there but, and they’re not going to get a positive experience out of it? Or is it like universally positive experience for people that are, you know, healthy to going in?

Vanessa (01:10:19):
I think the biggest thing is about how you process the experience, whether you consider it positive or not, because it may be difficult in the sense that you learn some, you have some difficult insights or you learn some things about yourself that maybe aren’t the best you see, you know, ways that you are or you see things you’ve done in the past that might be painful and might be hard to look at. So if you’re the kind of person who looks at that and says, Oh, I don’t ever want to do that again because that sucked. This was horrible. I had a horrible trip. Oftentimes it may not be that it was a horrible trip, but it may be that you’re looking at stuff that’s difficult to look at. And that’s part of the process. So we always say it’s not a party drug, like these aren’t party drugs.

Vanessa (01:11:02):
You know, that you can have beautiful experiences and see pretty lights and some cool psychedelic things. But oftentimes you’re digging through the archives of your life and finding the tough spots that need some love and care and some, um, some healing around. So I think that’s really the thing about it is that you can’t go in expecting that you’re going to have this party or this awesome, you know, Oh, this is so rad. Like it was, it’s not like getting drunk and partying with your friends. You’re doing hard work around the things that are there for you. And that if you’re ready to do that, and if you’re prepared for that and you’re willing to look at that stuff, it can be tremendously beneficial and healing.

Adam (01:11:41):
Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I think that they, so fortunately there’s siliciden, MTMA and Ayahuasca are all getting studied pretty heavily right now. The kids, it’s, it’s bubbling up and mostly because of the anecdotal evidence originally. And then now some of the early studies with dealing with treatment treatment resistant PTSD, which has been uncrackable from like a normal pharmaceutical perspective. And now you’re seeing guys that are coming out of some of these initial trials. It’s like a 87% success rate, right. With, with treatment resistant PTSD.

Brad (01:12:16):
So there’s all the drugs. Yeah. And that’s still the trip. They’re still in pain and suffering yet.

Adam (01:12:21):
and they’re still stuck, you know, and now they’re, you’re seeing this, this, this just done. It’s fixed, you know, and depending on the different processes, but maps has done a handful of studies with this stuff. And so if that’s, if that’s you out there listening, you know, if you, if you suffer from PTSD or you have this stuff going on, 100% go to MAPS and MAPS.org and look at the studies that these guys are doing. It’s the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. And this is what they’re looking at you. There’s trials to get in on. There’s all of this stuff to do. And it’s like, if that’s you and you’re suffering, this is a leaf, I would turn over, you know, and do the research and figure out if it’s the right thing. Because why, why fuck around, you know, if you can just be over.

Vanessa (01:13:09):
And honestly, I mean I love to kind of like tail onto that, that most people are suffering in their own unique way. We’ve all had traumas, we’ve all had things that have happened to us in our lives and you know, maybe you’ve developed really great tools around how to do self healing and if that’s the case, great.

Brad (01:13:27):
Yes, I’m, I’m usually right at all times. I’m one of the few people I know that has no past trauma and right. Never wrong. So I don’t know if I should do it or not, but maybe skip it. Maybe I’d be like the best candidate ever. Welcome. Everyone’s like rolling out the red carpet. Here he comes. The most perfect person in the world is now going welcome to the gates. Okay. Sorry, go ahead.

Vanessa (01:13:52):
Yeah, and I, I just think that it’s important because we all should be taking time to heal. You know, we should all be taking time and space even if it’s just healing the stress of life, the stress of work, the stress of, you know, our food systems and everything that’s coming at us. And maybe that works for you with just having meditation every day or maybe you have other tools where you’re able to work that stuff out. But I would say that most of us come up against repeating issues in our life. The same thing kind of happens in a different way.

Brad (01:14:24):
That must suck. I can’t imagine people

Vanessa (01:14:27):
and we feel like, why does this thing keep happening to us? Or maybe we don’t even realize we don’t have the ability to see that it’s the same thing in a different [inaudible]

Brad (01:14:35):
what? Repeating issue? Brand new first day. Every, I mean I’m always late today. It was raining and there was traffic so it doesn’t count

Vanessa (01:14:44):
all the other people who drive like assholes. Nothing.

Brad (01:14:49):
They got in another accident today, another jerk coming off the snow, the third accident of the month

Vanessa (01:14:54):
Or you’re always fighting with your family members or there’s, you know, there’s just all these repeating patterns where it may, maybe instead of digging in your heels and being more right about it, maybe there’s a place that you can see, like Adam said, you can zoom out and see this from a new perspective and it offers you a lot of space to navigate life in a new way that maybe wasn’t available before.

Brad (01:15:15):
You guys going to do a show on this or have you already on be the woman?

Vanessa (01:15:18):
Yeah, we, we’ve done actually, um, we’ve done one with Jerry who’s the founder of Rhythmia and so you can find that on our podcast. Um, Jerry, uh, Jerry Powell. Yeah. Okay. Jerry Powell. I’m like, why is this not coming to me? Jerry Powell. And then we’ve also done a wrap up after we had our experience just talking about our experience in great detail so people can check that out.

Adam (01:15:43):
Yeah. And uh, Dennis McKenna.

Vanessa (01:15:46):
Yeah. We’ve had Dennis McKenna on whose Terrence McKenna’s brother who they were, uh, my, mycologists right.

Adam (01:15:55):

Vanessa (01:15:56):
ethnobotanist thank you. And did a lot of um, exploratory work around psilocybin, let’s say. Yeah. So they were kind of the psychonautic pioneers in the 70s and spent a bunch of time in the Amazon, uh, you know, basically taking various mushrooms and reporting on their experiences, but have, you know, since then written several books and sort of been the pioneers in this, in this field.

Adam (01:16:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And Dennis now is, he’s on the board of the Heffter Institute, which is they, they study similar to MAPS. They’re studying psilocybin specifically for all of this, this kind of stuff. And he speaks, actually we, we caught him at paleo effects. He was speaking at paleo facts about entheogens and all of this stuff and we caught him there and pinned him down for a podcast. And so it’s just a good one to get some sort of the history of how long this has been present in the States. And like what the history of legalization slash studying slash schedule one slash not studying and kind of how all of this stuff went. Because while it seems new, it’s been going on here for a really long time

Vanessa (01:17:05):
and Michael Pollan recently wrote a book to How to Change Your Mind, About Psychedelics, which is a really great resource for people. And what I love about it is that it’s written for regular people. You know, it’s like people who really don’t have a, a dog in the game so to speak, and are really looking for the science and the evidence of what’s actually there to be [inaudible]

Adam (01:17:25):
the analytical types. Yeah, yeah. Word in the mushrooms at 14

Vanessa (01:17:31):
because Adam and I are really on the separate ends of the spectrum with that. Like he didn’t do any of this stuff till well into adulthood and I did it earlier on. And it’s like there’s all kinds of people out there and you know, it doesn’t mean that you have to be a little hippy child like me growing up in the redwoods to have to necessarily do this stuff because there’s, I would say there’s something for most people in it, but you have to decide for yourself,

Brad (01:17:56):
whew. Yeah. BEE the wellness.com. Right? Yep. We can learn about these different retreats. So it sounds like a very retreat experience. Yes. This Ayahuascaone is distinct going to this facility where that’s the centerpiece. The other stuff is about mountain biking, surfing and stand up paddling. And if you sign up for both, you get a discount want at the end. For sure. Brad said that if it didn’t exist now exist, just enter the code. Brad Kearns [inaudible]

Vanessa (01:18:31):
add that. Um, I do offer a program called Authentic Self, which is a coaching program around the Rhythmia retreat. So you’ll get actually coaching and, and preparation for it for about six months. And then, yeah. And then integration, um, coaching on the other side of it because it’s a profound experience. And so I love being able to help prepare people emotionally and give you some spiritual and cognitive tools to go into that experience. And then on the other side, how to really integrate what you learned, what came out of that experience without just being thrown back into regular life going, okay, I had this life changing experience, but how do I integrate this into reality? So, um, so it’s called authentic self and it’s an option that you can add on with the retreat

Brad (01:19:14):
Just click the box. That’s all you have to do. I mean, I feel like if you’re going to go to the trouble to do this, you should also do the Authentic Self.

Vanessa (01:19:24):
Yeah. Especially if you’re, you know, if you’re nervous about the experience and you want a little extra support and well

Brad (01:19:29):
You’ve always been right your whole life,

Vanessa (01:19:33):
why would I start now?

Brad (01:19:35):
It can happen at this retreat, I’m really nervous about this before and after

Vanessa (01:19:39):
Yeah. Well, and, and I just think that, you know, um, anytime you have like more tools to pull from and we do a lot of breathwork. We do a lot of meditation. We do a lot of things to give you tools so that within the experience when, if you’re having a rough time, you’d be amazed how happy you are to know, Oh yeah, what about that breath work we did? Or what about that meditation or it really makes a difference in navigating these more difficult pieces of the experience.

Brad (01:20:06):
Can, can you give that as a gift to someone you can that really deserves it?

Vanessa (01:20:10):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad (01:20:12):
That’d be trippy to put under the Christmas tree, huh?

Vanessa (01:20:15):
Well, you know, there have been people, we were actually talking to folks there that came with friends that didn’t know what the retreat was. Just, Oh, I’m going to do a retreat, show up. And then they’re like, wait, what? We’re doing what?

Brad (01:20:28):

Vanessa (01:20:29):
So yeah. Could happen. You could surprise somebody.

Adam (01:20:32):
Yes, it could happen

Speaker 6 (01:20:33):
Adam and Vanessa Lambert, great show. Thanks. Great to catch up. Oh my gosh. Why is, couldn’t have the record for the widest ranging show. I mean, like it or not, we’ll check our downloads, but we got down, we got the low down on the download. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Thanks for listening.

Vanessa (01:20:52):
Thanks for having us.

Adam (01:20:53):
Thanks for having us, man.

Brad (01:20:57):
Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com and we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop, iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves cause they need to. Thanks for doing it.


(Breather) Covering some great questions from listeners in today’s breather show. Thanks to everyone who wrote in for asking about a variety of topics – from fasting to aerobic vs anaerobic workouts, sugar cravings, how to make good bone broth, and more!

We start off on a high note with a message from a listener named Jim who is now happily plantar fasciitis free, thanks to my video showing how to do two stretches that are major game changers for those suffering from plantar fasciitis. Next is a question about the best cooking methods for homemade bone broth. I personally like to put it on simmer for 48 hours and take the extra step of adding in a few tablespoons of white vinegar, which helps draw out nutrients from the bones. And as discussed during my show with Sharon Brown, a high-quality broth should be gelatinous when refrigerated, because that’s where the good stuff is – in the fat! I’ve also recently been taking 30 grams of collagen powder a day as per Mark Sisson’s advice – why not get a little extra collagen in there? We know that meat on the bone is one of the Four Pillars of the Human Diet, and collagen itself is a very interesting molecule because it has heliotropic benefits, meaning it travels to the areas in your body that need it most!

We move onto a discussion of anaerobic vs. aerobic exercise, and a listener shares how maf has improved their tennis game so much that they are now dominating the very people who used to crush them in the game! They credit their success to taking a 3-month hiatus from tennis and doing nothing but “strict maf” runs using the 180 minus age formula (and incorporating plenty of recovery), which allowed them to strengthen their body’s fat-burning capabilities and nurture immune and metabolic function, without pushing themselves so hard that they crashed and experienced burnout. Knowing (or not knowing) when to take it easy can really make or break the success of your fitness program. In fact, this listener reveals that there is a lot of burnout among tennis players! Regardless of which sport you play, remember that all athletes should be careful not to push their bodies too hard. Ultimately, it’s about strengthening your aerobic base, so whatever workouts you do, you’ll be able to launch from a higher fitness platform.

Next up is a question from a listener who’s been experiencing cravings for sugar (and more calories in general) in the evening – what’s that all about? Well, since the question comes from someone who 1) has a pretty extreme training regimen, 2) sticks to a strict intermittent fasting schedule, and 3) hasn’t been sleeping enough, then this could be a sign that they’re not getting adequate calories during their eating window. It’s also simply too much stress on the body. Someone with low body fat, who has done 14 Ironman competitions, and is clearly super fit could actually really benefit from consuming more calories, upping carbohydrate intake, and not sticking so diligently to a compressed eating window. Craving sugar in the evening is also usually an indication of being overstressed. When you’re overstressed, your body goes into fight or flight mode because of the overstimulation of your parasympathetic nervous system. Not having a healthy balance of stress and rest patterns throughout your day is what puts you right into sugar craving mode, that those cravings show up at night, when your body is dying for a quick source of energy. Adding more healthy carbohydrates and taking it a little easier should help any listeners who have been experiencing similar symptoms of overstress. Of course, some people are highly fat-adapted and can skip a meal or two with no problems, but it’s really important to be careful, and also realistic about what your capabilities and limits are, especially if you don’t have much experience with fasting. Thanks to everyone who wrote in with inquiries – I appreciate the support, and I look forward to the next batch questions and insightful comments!


A listener shares how he was able to cure his Plantar Fasciitis after viewing Brad’s stretches. [05:24]

A listener asks about making good bone broth. [07:05]

Adhering to Maffetone’s maximum aerobic function theory helps this tennis player’s game. Take 180 minus your age and do your workouts at or below that heart rate. [09:33]

Tennis and basketball players need to learn the difference between aerobic workout and an anaerobic session. [12:40]

When a person practices intermediate fasting and is extremely vigorous in their workouts, and there is a problem with craving sugar in the evening, that’s a sign of probably not eating enough calories during that eating window. [15:29]

Skipping meals should not be done until you are highly fat adapted and feel great. [24:00]



Download Episode MP3

Get Over Yourself Podcast

Brad (00:00):
Welcome to the get over yourself podcast. This is author and athlete, Brad Kearns, discovering ways to be healthy, fit and happy in hectic, high-stress, modern life. So let’s slow down and take a deep breath. Take a cold plunge and expertly balance that competitive intensity with an appreciation of the journey. That’s the theme of the show. Here we go.

Brad (03:34):
Hey listen, Brad here. Fresh off a wonderful trip including a visit to Graceland and Memphis, Tennessee home of Elvis. What a great tour. You can feel the guy you could feel his presence at his super duper crash pad, perfectly restored in all out seventies glitz and glamour. Oh, so sad that he had to leave us so soon. Uh, the one thing the tour kind of left out was how this guy exploded all of a sudden from, uh, a shy, geeky dude in high school that grew his hair differently. And wore clothes that were before his time. Uh, but he was very talented playing guitar to his classmates. And then all of a sudden he’s a worldwide sensation. And Oh my gosh, he was so big at his time because the media was so different than right.

Brad (04:25):
We only had three TV channels, and, uh, he couldn’t go and listen to music unless you went to the record store and bought something. He was so huge that you can’t even compare it to even today’s biggest stars. It’s just crazy. He did a, uh, the first live televised concert by satellite ever in Hawaii, and a billion people across the world watched it. At that time, the world population was four point something billion. So can you imagine one out of every four people in the world watching an Elvis concert? Yay. The one thing I did some research and said, how did this guy blow up so big so quickly? And there was some commentary about the incredible range of his voice and he had the ability to range three octaves whatever the heck that means. Uh, but yeah, pretty interesting stuff. And also interesting are these amazing, insightful questions, uh, submitted by listeners to the get over yourself podcast.

Brad (05:24):
So credit to you all for, uh, being engaged and lively and asking some questions that I think will be of wide benefit to all listeners. So we’re going to hit these hard, but we also have some, uh, celebrations to cover, uh, such as the quick, simple right to the point message from Jim Sullivan. Brad, you cured my plantar fasciitis. Oh my God! Success exclamation point. And he’s talking about my now viral YouTube video. Uh, how to cure plantar fasciitis. I think it’s called just search Brad Kearns plantar fasciitis and you shall find, uh, the secrets, the tips and tricks that I learned from a random podiatrist at a trade show, a expo at a race. I was announcing the urban cow half marathon in Sacramento and this guy gave me a few stretches and he cured my long suffering, 15 year long case of mild to severe plantar fasciitis that simply would not go away no matter what. And in three weeks of these stretches adhering to this protocol, uh, it was gone forever. And Jim says, I just did my first trail run in over a year and a half after doing the stretches for four months straight. No pain. I’m cured. Thank you. I’ll send you all the money I wasted and spent on surgery and orthotics. Oh my gosh! Can you believe? The guy went under the knife for the nagging condition of plantar fasciitis that can be so greatly alleviated by doing these long duration stretches. So please go watch that video if you have any inkling of suffering from plantar fasciitis.

Brad (07:05):
Next. Sorry. Some of the names did not come through from the email. So, uh, props anyway to the anonymous, uh, writers and most of the time we got their name. Okay. Uh, first one is about bone broth. Can it be simmered in installments? Can you simmer for eight hours, refrigerate, simmer for another eight or must it be continuous? I don’t know the answer. Why not? Just do it continuously and leave it plugged in overnight or as you go away for work? That’s what I’ve always done is, uh, put up to that goal of simmering the bones for 48 hours. Uh, with a couple tablespoons of vinegar in there, a white vinegar that helps with the, uh, leaching of all the nutritional properties out of the bones, but it definitely takes a couple of days of simmering to get the maximum benefits from the bone broth. And the way you know you’re consuming a good bone broth, you can listen to my entire show was Sharon Brown. But generally speaking, you want the product to be gelatinous when it’s refrigerated, so it’ll kind of firm up if you’re buying a good product, whether you’re doing a store bought product or whether you’re making it yourself.

Brad (08:11):
Uh, the gelatin material is the, uh, the rich source of nutrients that we do not get very easily in other areas of the diet. The collagen and the glycosaminoglycans that help your joints and connective tissue remain healthy, uh, for the rest of your life. Mark Sisson just told me the other day that I should be taking 30 grams of collagen powder, uh, 30 grams of collagen protein powder every day. Why not at our age trying to still jump off the ground and clear the high jump bar? You’ve got to have strong joints and connective tissue. So I’m on the collagen program people, how about you? Are you eating a lot of, uh, joint material? Meat on the bone is Dr Cate Shanahan identifies as one of the four pillars of human nutrition. Get your collagen game on. It’s a very interesting molecule that actually has a, it’s called a heliotropic benefit.

Brad (09:05):
That means that when you ingest collagen protein, it will travel to the areas in your body where it’s needed most. So if you have a leaky creaky, uh, left shoulder and you start supplementing with collagen and finding those, uh, nutritious cuts of meat, you are going to boost the functioning of that left shoulder that needs a rebuild, a refresher on the collagen that located in the joint. Fascinating insight. Okay.

Brad (09:33):
And there’s also a more good stuff besides the bone broth question from this listener. Loved your Maffetone interviews by the way as well. I’m a faithful MAF convert and now evangelize to all my type a hard training all the time crew, actually, I’m in the tennis world and MAF has seriously improved my game to the point where I dominate people. I used to get crushed by, I took three months off of tennis and did nothing but strict MAF runs. That’s under the a 180 minus age in beats per minute cutoff that we talk about so much as the distinction between a properly conducted aerobic training session that’ll teach you to burn fat. That’s minimally stressful that you can build, build, build upon versus exceeding that maximum aerobic function cutoff point, 180 minus your age. So in beats per minute, you get that figure and stay under there a very, very comfortable pace. If you exceed that number, you start to burn an increasing percentage of glucose and a reduction in the amount of fat oxidation per minute.

Brad (10:41):
So when we talk about your maximum aerobic function, that’s the maximum fat calories burned per minute for the maximum fat burning aerobic benefits of a workout. Uh, we seem to want to, uh, have a greater sensation that we’re getting hard work done, that we got a real workout. So we tend to increase that effort beyond the maximum aerobic cutoff. And then we get into the glucose burning heart rates that are slightly stressful and that over time can push you into chronic exercise patterns where you disturb your hormonal function, you suppress your immune function and you regress, you succumb to a breakdown, burnout, illness and injury instead of continual building and strengthening of the aerobic system and nurturing your immune function in your metabolic function and your fat burning capabilities. So it’s a huge distinction. Uh, if you’re not familiar, if you’re not in the endurance athletic world, uh, this might be new information, but for those of you who have listened to me talk about this for a long time, it can make or break the success of your fitness program that you take it easy on yourself and you do a proper fat burning workout.

Brad (11:50):
And it’s as simple as taking 180 minus your age and faithfully doing the vast majority of your cardiovascular workouts at or below that heart rate. So this guy turned around his tennis game because of course, tennis match requires quite a bit of endurance, right? Uh, but we kind of, uh, overlook that. And a lot of times when you’re training specifically just hitting your serves and doing a tennis workout, it’s kind of a, uh, anaerobic activity of short bursts and a lot of downtime. So he took three months off tennis, did strict MAF, runs with plenty of recovery. And now I’m a serious beast out there.

Brad (12:25):
Jeff Rasa, you listening, and man? I know you’re working hard to try to dominate the 55 plus circuit. And SoCal longtime tennis champion fitness, extreme performer, go out there and do some jogs. I know it’s going to help your tennis game.

Brad (12:40):
As a matter of fact, as this listener writes, there’s lots of physical burnout in tennis. Lots. It’s a go all out at all times type of sport. I know a kid trying to go pro right now who’s doing sprint workouts and hills five times a week in addition to his tennis workouts, which are pretty insane in themselves. I’ve been warning him, hopefully he listens. So that’s a good point for athletes in all manner of uh, team sports or specific sports where it’s not a pure endurance activity where you have the very structured training and the athletes are wiring up to their wireless heart rate monitor every time they work out. So a tennis player might not be even aware of the distinction between an aerobic workout and an anaerobic session and definitely dig themselves, a nice deep hole to get a regress with their performance because they are pushing their bodies too hard when they’re layering in this high stress. Uh, they call it the black hole. That’s the heart rates zone that goes above your aerobic cutoff and into that range where it’s not a super hard like a sprint workout or an anaerobic, uh, aerobic threshold session. It’s just kind of in that, in between land where it’s pretty difficult, but it can serve to break you down over time, especially when it’s layered in with sport specific workouts like the tennis workouts. So that can be a huge deal for athletes in a variety of sports., A basketball player that requires that endurance to make it through the season as well as the explosiveness that you develop in a proper basketball practice session.

Brad (14:17):
So if I were counseling a basketball player, I would say get out there and jog very slowly as an adjunct, a compliment to all the work that you do in the gym, but nothing beyond that. Someone trying to go out there and run 10 kilometers at a, an impressive pace is just going to bring an additional element of risk into the basketball training mode or the tennis practices that they’re already doing. Yeah, that’s kind of the missing link. Missing secret weapon for a lot of athletes in a variety of sports is to that aerobic base, that fitness foundation, so that whatever workouts you do, you can launch from a higher fitness platform. You’re stronger, you can last better for an hour or a two hour training session. I mean, look, some of these teams, uh, some of the sports teams at UCLA, they practice for three hours every single day. That’s a lot of endurance required just to get through practice where you’re throwing in a lot of explosiveness and the other energy systems that are independent from your aerobic conditioning, your aerobics endurance. So great letter from the tennis player and on we go to a another one.

Brad (15:29):
Hey Brad, can you help me with this question? I’ve been practicing intermediate fasting 16 hour fast, eight hour feeding window, very popular. Typically that’s a 12 noon to 8:00 PM eating window. And when you hear that term eating window, uh, remember that you’re not talking about someone that starts eating at 12 noon and, and eats all throughout that time period. It’s just when the calories are consumed are inside that window, typically a lunch and then a dinner meal. Right? And I just got off a great podcast with Dr Cate Shanahan for her new book, The Fatburn Fix. And she’s talking about the importance of staying away from snacking too, because every time you snack you kind of light up your hunger hormones, which are closely calibrated to your circadian rhythm. So if you have a tendency to snack at 2:00 PM or 3:00 PM, you’re going to get hungry at 2:00 PM or 3:00 PM every day and as soon as you eat anything, even if it’s a delicious, nutritious, Keto approved high fat snack, you are going to shut off body fat burning, uh, in order to burn the thing that you’ve consumed.

Brad (16:37):
If it happens to be a snack with carbohydrate, then we’re talking about, uh, even more repercussions such as the spiking of insulin and putting you on the energy appetite roller coaster where you’re going to need another snack an hour later and so forth that we’re all pretty familiar with. So trying to eat in a compressed time window, gain all those benefits of fasting, but of course eat plenty of food and eight hour windows, plenty of time to get all the calories you need during the day and also stay away from snacking period inside that, inside that eating window. Okay. So this listener is 44 years old, six one, 195, five to 6% body fat, get lean and mean showing the six pack, been a triathlete for 20 years, same weight and body fat. Uh, I’ve done 19 Ironmans all around the world. A heavy weight training athlete, a total body routine three days a week, working out twice a day, five to seven days a week.

Brad (17:36):
This is a big time athletic commitment here and it’s going to be interesting to cover these questions. You could probably guess what my answer is going to be, uh, at a moment. So he does cardio in the morning, seven days week, fasted just on a cup of coffee and that could be a swim workout. A long session on the bike happens a couple times a week, fueled by just a cup of coffee, maybe a double shot of espresso inside the ride. So nothing to eat for the first three hours into the ride, just to hone that fat burning abilities, sipping the branch chain amino acids, doing all the cutting edge stuff, doing the best they can. Uh, then they have a, an amino acid shake 30 minutes after the workout. So no calories after the workout for that short time window. And the idea there is to optimize the flowing of the adaptive hormones in the bloodstream after the workout.

Brad (18:29):
That would be testosterone growth hormone, things like that. Okay. So you’re going to get the total badass vibe here. That’s a lot going on. A lot of hard work and a lot of discipline with the diet banking, those fasted hours and pushing the body with an incredible workout regimen. And sure enough, here comes a question, the only issue I have is that I crave sugar in the evening or just more calories. Is there something I need to look for a check with the doctor of why this is going on or some supplements that can help me last through the evening. Uh, he says he’s been a personal trainer for over 20 years, still learning and his thoughts are that he’s not getting enough calories through the day, not sleeping enough, maybe lacking some nutrition. What do you think Brad, as an endurance athlete and professional for a long time?

Brad (19:18):
I appreciate your help. Okay. So yeah, you think in terms of his speculation, uh, this is a very extreme training regimen and possibly when you stack all these challenges to the body such as biking for three hours with just a cup of coffee, um, you know, burning that many calories, doing that many workouts, uh, that low body fat and, and throwing in the low carb aspects as well, waiting before getting home to um, uh, to, to consume any calories so you can get the hormone boost. When you add that all up and stack that all together, you are very likely talking about too much stress overall to the organism. And then you threw in that you’re not sleeping enough, which is, uh, very alarming when you’re trying to follow that kind of approach. So if you’re already ultra, ultra low body fat, you’re training that hard., you’ve done 20 Ironmans, you’re obviously a fit specimen. Uh, I think you can easily, uh, give yourself a pass to consume more calories, to not worry about the, uh, restrictions when you’re waiting three hours to eat something on the bike ride. Um, you know, compressed eating window probably would benefit from consuming more carbohydrate calories when you’re burning that many carbohydrates and you’re at five to 6% body fat. So overall, for all listeners to appreciate is when you’re showing signs of healthy metabolic function and healthy athletic abilities, you’re kind of in a different category than someone who is struggling with metabolic damaged, a dysfunctional fat burning system. Uh, symptoms of poor health, uh, immune problems, autoimmune problems, inflammatory problems. Uh, there’s going to be a different set of decision making parameters to follow in terms of, uh, how many carbohydrates should I allow into my diet?

Brad (21:16):
Uh, how much fasting should I engage in things like that. A lot of experts, especially some of my favorites. Dr Cate Shanahan, dr Phil Maffetone described that fasting itself is a stress. So if you are ready, uh, in a category such as a sluggish thyroid or adrenal dysfunction, you have a gut dysfunction, leaky gut syndrome, things like that. Uh, the fasting could be too stressful for you. And instead, what you might want to do is fuel yourself with a nutritious whole foods, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, what have you, whatever you need. Uh, but you know, getting that good food in and not challenging the system until you’re ready to get, uh, a positive, beneficial adaptive experience from let’s say going on a 16 and eight, 16 hours fast at eight hours eating window pattern like the previous question. Or in this athlete’s case, these extreme athletic goals and fasting three hours into the ride and spiking it with a shot of espresso in the middle of the ride.

Brad (22:17):
My personal opinion, that seems like a bit of overkill because when you’re out there pushing your body with a challenging workout, long-duration workout or high intensity workout, you already have the stress hormones flowing to allow your system to function optimally to perform the, the work. So taking a shot of espresso in the middle, uh, is possibly unnecessary and quite possibly harmful in certain ways. And I think the fallout that this listener is experiencing, uh, is described at night when you’re craving sugar in the evening. And that’s kind of a, uh, a crash and burn indication from an overly stressful day. So when we go into overstress mode, when we go into excess sympathetic nervous system stimulation that’s known as the fight or flight component of the autonomic nervous system versus the parasympathetic, which is known as the rest and digest. When you overstimulate PR, when you overstimulate sympathetic and you don’t have a healthy balance of stress and rest patterns throughout your day, you are going to be in sugar craving mode.

Brad (23:18):
You’re going to be pushed in that direction and it’s all the chips are all going to fall in the evening hours when you’re bombed out. And the way that your body needs to regain energy or the sensation is a extreme craving for a quick energy. Foods like sugar. So I want to see you consuming more calories during the day just as you speculated, including more healthy carbohydrates probably. And there’s going to be more questions on this in future shows from people wondering if they can perform these great endurance feats and adhere to the low carb or the Keto scene. And so just as a sneak preview we’ll cover it more. Uh, but yes, people are doing it, they’re doing it very well.

Brad (24:00):
However, it seems like a highly advanced strategy. And don’t try this at home or don’t try it at home until you are showing signs that you are highly fat adapted and can feel great. For example, skipping one meal, skipping a second meal, performing a workout during that time. Let’s say you’re fasted for 16 or 18 hours, you can do a workout just fine. You can go along for a couple hours afterwards, just fine. Things like this, indicators that you’re really, really good at, burning body fat. And then you can explore some of the additional benefits offered by pairing extreme exercise with low carb. And so you’re this keto burning machine and you’ve heard some of the leaders in this space talk about the great performances Dude Spellings. My guest on the podcast who did a double crossing of the grand Canyon, nearly 50 miles with tens of thousands of feet of climbing on almost no calories. I think he had to cheat at mile 38 and slam a couple of coconut butter packets, but then finishing this incredible event and fasting for another 10 hours overnight. Absolutely astonishing.

Brad (25:09):
A breakthrough in human performance and also possibly, uh, an indication of where we’re headed in the future with advanced recovery techniques. Because when you’re in a fasted state, your anti-inflammatory, your enhanced cellular repair, all these great things are happening. If you can handle it. Most people couldn’t imagine finishing a 50 mile extravaganza and the Grand Canyon and then declining to eat for another eight hours while your friends all around your slamming pizzas. Uh, but that was Dude Spelling story. You’ll listen to that on the podcast. And uh, guys like Luis Villasenor, who’s a competitive power lifter bodybuilder and the proprietor of the wonderful Keto Gains website. And Keto Gains movement, helping thousands of people, uh, reduce excess body fat with the ketogenic approach. He’s achieving great things as an athlete and he’s been strict Keto for nearly 20 years and counting, uh, Zach Bitter, the ultra runner who has, uh, the human performance outliers podcast with Sean Baker, uh, doing the ultra stuff, the extreme endurance stuff on a, uh, largely carnivorisha dietary pattern with a low carbohydrate intake overall, although he does fluctuate, uh, in and around his performances.

Brad (26:24):
So it’s a very nuance strategy that can be considered for people who are way deep into this game. But prior to that, or if you’re showing these signs like the listener writes in craving sugar in the evening, you got to take a look at, uh, your overall program there and realize that there might be some further optimization to stay out of that stress hormone bath that comes when the stress factors add up to be a little bit too much overall.

Brad (26:52):
Whew, fun stuff. Keep them coming, people. We will do some more breather shows where we do Q and Alove to make this an interactive experience. And please tell others about the show. That’s how we grow and spread the message and counter a lot of the B S that’s still being spewed out there in the diet scene, especially in the fitness scene, makes me frustrated that people are trying their hardest to do the right thing, to do what they’ve been told and to go out there and follow an ill advised approach that’s destined to lead to burnout, breakdown, illness and injury breaks my heart.

Brad (27:30):
So I want people to have fun, take it easy, get over themselves, make good choices with their dietary patterns, their exercise, lifestyle, sleep habits. And so I appreciate your support in spreading the word. One way you can do that is to leave a review on the resource that you use to listen to podcasts. Apple iTunes is the most prominent one and you have to go on a desktop iTunes in order to leave a review. It’s kind of a pain, but you can pull up the show on your desktop and there’s, a button that, uh, allows you to access all the reviews. We have a ton of really nice reviews. I appreciate the people that have taken the time to do it. And if you can add to that, then we rise up the rankings and get more attention and more listeners. So that would be a huge help. A huge thank you for doing that. And if you listen to your podcasts with uh, other, uh, apps, like I use this really cool one called Overcast. Uh, you can go out there and leave a review and get even more attention because a lot of times there’s not a lot of reviews on these peripheral podcast providers so you could shape culture, influence culture, leaving a nice review and telling people to listen to the, get over yourself podcasts or all kinds of crazy stuff happens, especially at the end of the show.

Brad (28:52):
Thank you for listening to the show. We would love your feedback at getoveryourselfpodcast@gmail.com and we would also love if you could leave a rating and a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. I know it’s a hassle. You have to go to desktop, iTunes, click on the tab that says ratings and reviews, and then click to rate the show anywhere from five to five stars. And it really helps spread the word so more people can find the show and get over themselves because they need to. Thanks for doing it.

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